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FROM THE 


SELECT COMMITTEE 


EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS) 

TOGETHER WITH THE 


PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE, 

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 


AND 

APPENDIX. 


Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 
13 July 1858. 






[ ii ] 


^37 


Martis, 20® die Aprilis, 1858. 


Ordered , That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the causes that have led 
to the delay that has occurred in the Construction of Railways in India. 


Martis , 27° die Aprilis , 1858. 


Committee nominated of— 

Mr. Liddell. 

Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Stephenson. 

Mr. Cumming Bruce. 

Mr. George Glyn. 

Mr. Alexander Hugh Baring. 

_ Mr. Cheetham. 

Ordered , That the Committee have power t 
Ordered , That Five be the Quorum of the 


Mr. Kirkman Hodgson. 

Mr. Henry Danby Seymour. 
Mr. Thomas George Baring. 
Sir James Elphinstone. 
Colonel Sykes. 

Mr. Marjoribanks. 

Mr. Henry Austin Bruce. 


d send for Persons, Papers and Records. 
Committee. 


Martis , 13° die Julii , 1858. 


Ordered, That the Committee have power to report their Observations, together with the 
Minutes of Evidence taken before them, to The House. 


REPORT - -- -- -- -- -- p. iii 

PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE.p. viii 

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. p. 1 

APPENDIX - .p. 290 













( iii ) 


REPORT. 


THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Causes that have 
led to the Delay that has occurred in the Construction of Railways in 

India ;- Have considered the Matters to them referred, and agreed to 

the following REPORT: 

‘Y’OUR COMMITTEE have taken evidence from many of the best authorities 
J- on the subject, viz., gentlemen connected with the Indian Government at 
home, officers of high standing and long experience of public works in India, as 
well as managing directors, secretaries, and engineers belonging to the different 
railway companies. 

There are seven distinct companies at present engaged in constructing lines 
of railway in India, under the guarantee of the Indian Government, viz. : 

1. The East Indian Railway Company engaged to construct a line from 
Calcutta via Rajmahal and Allahabad, to Delhi or Meerut, with a branch 
from Mirzapoor, to meet the East Indian Peninsula line at Jubbulpoor. 

2. The Great Indian Peninsula Company, from Bombay in a north¬ 
easterly direction to Jubbulpoor, and in a south-easterly direction, via Poonah 
and Sholapore, to meet the Madras line in the neighbourhood of Bellary. 

3. The Madras Railway Company, from Madras via Cu^lapah to Bellary, 
to join the line from Bombay, and in a westerly direction to the Malabar 
coast, at or near Beypoor. 

4. The Bombay and Baroda Company, from Bombay via Surat, to Baroda 
and Ahmedabad. 

5. The Scind and Punjaub Railway Company, from Kurrachee to Kotree 
on the Indus, and from Moultan to Lahore in the Punjaub, with a con¬ 
nexion by steam navigation between Kotree and Moultan- 

6. The Eastern Bengal Company, from Calcutta to Dacca, with a branch 
to Jessore. 

7. The Great Southern of India Company from Salem via Trichinopoly 
to Negapatam, and Southward to Madura and Tinnevelly. 

The first Indian Railway project was broached in the latter end of 1844, by 
Mr. MacDonald Stephenson, who submitted to the India House a scheme for a 
line from Calcutta to the north-west of India, based upon minute information 
and statistics collected by himself on the spot; and, almost simultaneously, 
Mr. Chapman submitted a scheme for a railway from Bombay towards the 
interior ; a Company was also formed in 1845 for the construction of a railway 
from Madras to Arcot. 

The delays attendant upon railway construction in India may be classified 
under four distinct heads : 

]. Delays arising from Government supervision at Home and in India. 

2. Delays incidental to the execution of extensive and complicated 
public works under novel circumstances in a distant country. 

3. Delays produced by political causes, such as insurrection and mutiny. 

4. Delays arising from the natural difficulties which the face of the 
country presents. 

Your Committee will proceed to notice each class of delay in the order thus 
given, but it is necessary, before doing so, to describe shortly the system of 

4 ! 6. a 2 railway 





IV 


REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE 


railway construction pursued in India. Indian railways are constructed by 
companies formed in this country, and incorporated by Acts of Parliament. In 
all their proceedings, operations, and expenditure they are subject to the con¬ 
trol of the Government, who engage to grant for 99 years all the land required, 
free of expense, to the companies, and to guarantee interest, generally at the 
rate of five per cent, per annum, for the same term, upon the capital employed. 

The following conditions are attached to the guarantee and the granting of 
the land : 

The Railway Company have the power of surrendering the. works at 
any time after the line is opened, upon giving six months notice to the 
Government, and the East India Company undertake to repay the whole 
amount that has been expended by the Railway Company. 

The East India Company have the power, within six months after the 
expiration of 25 or 50 years, of purchasing the railway at the mean market 
value, in London, of the shares during the three previous years.. In case 
the Railway Company fail to complete the line or to work it satisfactorily, 
the Government is entitled to take possession, and repay within six months 
the sums expended. 

The Railway Company to repay the guaranteed interests from the profits 
of the railway.” 

The supervision of the Government over the proceedings of the railway 
companies is 6f two distinct kinds, viz., that exercised in the person of the 
official Director over the Railway Boards in London, and that exercised by 
consulting engineers in India, to whom is committed the charge of superintend¬ 
ing on behalf of Government all railway operations in that country. 

Supervision at Home .—The duties of Official Director at the various Railway 
Boards have hitherto been performed by the same person, and he has, under 
the terms of the contract, a power of veto over all the proceedings of the 
Board, but it doe& not appear that this power has ever been exercised; indeed, 
until a comparatively recent period, his functions appear to have been confined 
to giving information to the Court of Directors upon points on which they 
might require it, and to co-operating in the promotion of the various under¬ 
takings ; but authority has been lately given to him to sanction all indents (or 
requisitions) for stores and materials approved by the local Governments in 
India, and the acceptance of tenders for the supply of the same. 

Previous to this important extension of the powers of the Official Director, 
every indent \tas submitted for the direct sanction of the Home authorities, by 
a process thus described by Sir James Melvill, the Official director: “ The 
indent came from the railway authorities in India to the Railway Board in this 
country ; the Railway Board then came to their decision upon it; and if they 
proposed to comply with it, they sent a resolution to that effect to the Court 
of Directors; the Court of Directors came to an opinion upon it, and their 
opinion was submitted for the concurrence of the Board of Control, and when 
the indent was returned with the opinion of both authorities, the decision was 
communicated to the Railway Board.” Such a system necessarily entailed a 
very considerable amount of delay and correspondence, and the best results 
may be anticipated from the judicious changes lately effected in this respect. 

The process of forwarding instructions from the Railway Boards to their 
agents in India also seems to Your Committee to require improvement. Sir 
James Melvill thus describes it: “ The Railway Board prepares a draft of the 
instructions to its agent in India, and every such draft, without exception, is 
submitted to the Court of Directors; the Court, expressing an opinion upon it, 
submit it to the Board of Control, and when both authorities are agreed, the 
letter is returned to the Railway Board, with an intimation that the Court of 
Directors offers no objection to it.” Considerable delays have not unfrequently 
resulted from this cause; and though it is, no doubt, important that instruc¬ 
tions to their agents in India should go out backed by the whole weight and 
authority of the approval of the Home Government, Your Committee would 
confidently expect that the contemplated consolidation of the departments of 
the India House, and the Board of Control will materially expedite the future 

transaction 


ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). v 

transaction of railway business. Before leaving this branch of the subject, Your 
Committee would remark that the harmony which has prevailed at the Railway 
Boards seems to he in no small degree attributable to the judgment and dis¬ 
cretion exercised on all occasions by the Official Director, and to the respect 
shown to his opinion. 1 

Supervision in India. Under the terms of the contract the Government have 
an almost unlimited power of control over the acts and operations of the railway 
companies, the inspection and supervision of the works being in every case 
delegated 10 a military engineer, whose duty, as described by Colonel Baker, is, 
in the first instance, to examine the line of country over which it is proposed to 
construct a railway, to examine all the designs and estimates, to audit all 
expenditure, to report upon completed works, and to maintain a real check over 
all the acts of the railway officers. 

Your Committtee hesitate to express any opinion as to the policy of employ¬ 
ing military men in the inspection of railway works and the control of civil 
engineers, but it is quite clear that to ensure cordial co-operation no small 
amount of forbearance and discretion must be exercised on both sides. Too 
minute an interference in details, while unnecessary for practical economy, 
involves constant controversy, lengthy correspondence, and consequent delay, 
besides engendering irritation and discord where friendly and united action 
ought to subsist. Your Committee are decidedly of opinion that to ensure the 
speedy and efficient completion of railways in India the utmosf freedom of 
action ought to be allowed to the efforts of the different companies, consistent 
with the control necessary to protect from undue expenditure the Indian Ex¬ 
chequer, upon which the payment of the guaranteed interest must for some time 
remain a heavy charge. 

Complaints of too minute an interference on the part of the Government con¬ 
sulting engineer have been strongly urged from the Madras Presidency, for the 
further details of which Your Committee would refer to the evidence, which 
complaints appear to be in part well founded; on the other hand, Your Com¬ 
mittee cannot think that the proceedings of the chief engineer of the railway 
company have been wholly free from blame. Directions have been sent out 
from the Home authorities to the Madras Government to relax the extent of 
supervision in force there ; but it does not appear in evidence that those 
instructions have as yet taken effeet. Your Committee, however, have had no 
opportunity of hearing an explanation from the Madras Government on the 
subject. 

Other complaints, but in a minor degree, have arisen, both in Bengal and 
Bombay, though in the latter Presidency the relations between the Government 
and the Great Indian Peninsula Railway officials appear to have been, for the 
most part, of a harmonious and satisfactory character. 

The delays incidental to the construction of railways in so distant a country 
as India are of various kinds and degrees of magnitude. The cost and means 
of obtaining freight must always be regulated, and, in the opinion of many 
competent authorities, actually limited by the home demand for Indian pro¬ 
duce ; hence the transport across the sea of the vast mass of dead weight 
necessary for the construction of thousands of miles of iron way, besides 
locomotives, iron work for bridges, and other materials, forms a cause of delay 
second only in importance to the difficulties which impede the conveyance of 
these materials up the country, where the means of internal communication 
are in many places very imperfect, where river navigation during the dry 
season is liable to constant interruption, where boats are scarce, and native 
boatmen untrustworthy. To these difficulties may be added the want severely 
felt in many districts, and especially in Bengal, of fuel for lime and brick 
burning, and of timber suitable for sleepers, large quantities of which are now 
being supplied from England; the effects of Indian climate upon European 
constitutions; the frequent failures of contractors, unaccustomed or incom¬ 
petent to undertake such extensive works; and lastly, the circuitous and 
lengthy correspondence carried on between the Railway Boards and their 
agents, on the one hand, and with the various Government departments, both 
here and in India, on the other; all these appear to Your Committee to form 

416 . a 3 sources 


VI 


REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE 


sources of delay more or less serious, and must be classed among the main 
impediments to the rapid progress of railway enterprise in India. 

Delays from Political Causes have been of frequent occurrence. In Bengal 
the Santhal rebellion in 1855, is described as having thrown back the Works in 
the Rajmahal district for fully 12 months, and the evil influences resulting from 
it are not even yet at an end. The Mutiny subsequently suspended railway 
operations in Upper Bengal and the North-West Provinces from May to De¬ 
cember of last year, and its disastrous consequences must be felt for some time 
to come, although the actual damage done to the works appears to be less than 
might have been anticipated. Railway operations in the other Presidencies 
have hitherto been happily free from the disturbing influences of insurrection 
and war. 

Lastly come the delays arising from the natural features of the country , such 
as the bridging of large rivers, and the surmounting of the ghauts. Mr. Noad 
in his evidence states, that the whole question of the completion of the East 
Indian Railway resolves itself into the rapidity with which the enormous number 
of its heavy bridges and flood arches can be constructed. Along the Ganges 
Valley line, between Burdwan and the river Soane, a distance of about 400 
miles, there are described to be no less than 47,000,000 cubic feet of brickwork, 
including the substructure of the gigantic bridge over the Soane. 

On the Bombay and Baroda line, between Surat and Ahmedabad, three large 
and rapid rivers, the Taptee, Nerbudda and Mhye, present considerable 
engineering difficulties, and require costly and extensive bridges; on that 
important portion of the line between Surat and Bombay, no fewer than 18 
rivers have to be crossed, one of which, known as the Bassein Strait, is described 
to be 1 i mile in width. On portions of the Madras line also, the bridging- 
works are described to be very heavy; but even the great works thus enu¬ 
merated appear insignificant in comparison to the stupendous task undertaken 
by the Great Indian Peninsula Company of carrying their railway across the 
two mountain passes known as the Thull Ghaut and the Blior Ghaut, the former 
on the north-easterly, the latter on the south-easterly portion of this line. On 
the Thull Ghaut the ascent is 9 miles, the total rise in that distance 972 feet, 
the steepest gradient, J in 37 lor a distance of 11 miles 44 chains, and the works 
include 1,962 lineal yards of tunnelling, and 614 yards of viaduct, at an estimated 
cost of 49,988 l. per mile. On the Bhor Ghaut the steepest gradient is 1 in 67 
for a mile and 38 chains, the total distance is 15 miles 68 chains, the total rise 
in that distance 1,831 feet, the tunnelling is 2,535 yards, and the viaduct 888 
yards, the estimated cost being 48,188 l. per mile. 

With the exception of the ghauts and rivers, however, the general face of the 
country seems favourable for railway construction, presenting for the most part 
easy gradients ; and the very low price of labour keeps down the cost to an 
average for the whole country of about 10,000/. per mile, while many of the 
less expensive lines are being constructed at a cost of 6,000 l. per mile. 

Upon an impartial review of the early history of Indian railways, there can 
be no doubt that much valuable time was lost in the preliminary negotiations 
for the introduction of railway enterprise into India, and also on account of the 
commercial crisis having arisen while these negotiations were still incomplete ; 
the novelty and magnitude of the undertaking, the remoteness of the scene of 
operations, and the natural difficulties of climate and country might well have 
raised doubts and hesitation in the minds of the Indian authorities at home ; 
but Your Committee are decidedly of opinion that had the matter been taken up 
at first with the earnestness that its importance, both political and commercial 
deserved, in accordance with the proposal of the Court of Directors in 1846 to 
the Board of Control, and had the proposals of the originators been met with 
the same liberality which has since been displayed in the agreements with the 
different companies, our Indian possessions might ere this have been provided 
with many hundred miles of rapid internal communication, the value of which 
would have been felt in the facilities afforded for military concentration, and the 
more speedy development of their resources. But Your Committee have no 
means of judging of the considerations by which the Government were actuated 
in these proceedings. With reference to the actual prosecution of the works. 

Your 


ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


vil 


Your Committee cannot in fairness omit to observe, that, though some cases 
have been cited in which the Government superintendence has been productive 
of vexation and annoyance to the railway officials, and has tended to impede 
that harmonious action between the Government and the companies which is 
essential for the rapid completion of these great works, no very material delay 
in the construction of the various lines appears to have resulted therefrom. 
From the evidence adduced, Your Committee are led to believe that the progress 
of railroads under construction in India will bear favourable comparison with 
that of English lines. Willing testimony has been given by many of the railway 
authorities to the value of Government control to the interests of the com¬ 
panies themselves, when rationally and temperately exercised. 

Your Committee have not thought it necessary to enter into any comparison 
of the respective merits of the contract and departmental systems of construction, 
the adoption of which must always materially depend on the circumstances of 
the district; and it appears highly necessary that both systems should have a 
fair trial before giving any decided preference to either. 

In conclusion, Your Committee are of opinion, first, that the Government has 
acted wisely in committing to private enterprise the execution of these great 
public works; secondly, that a guaranteed interest on the requisite capital was 
indispensable to induce the public to invest their money in undertakings of this 
magnitude and novelty; and thirdly, that, in order to protect the Indian 
revenue from undue expenditure, Government control over the railway opera¬ 
tions is requisite, and even valuable to the interests of the shareholders them¬ 
selves. At the same time, Your Committee would observe that, under a system 
complicated in its character, and necessarily somewhat cumbrous in its 
machinery, a system, moreover, the greatest defect of which is the facility it 
affords for the evasion of responsibility, a clear and distinct definition of the 
duties, responsibilities, and extent of jurisdiction of all heads of departments, and 
those under them, is essentially requisite for its smooth and successful working; 
alw 7 ays assuming that due care be taken to entrust discretionary power only to 
men who are to be relied on as competent to distinguish an effective general 
control from too minute an interference in details. By a judicious adherence 
to the spirit rather than the letter of the contract, Your Committee feel assured 
that arrangements may be simplified, united action for one common object 
secured, and railway enterprise in India may before long assume proportions 
commensurate with the vast commercial agricultural and mineral resources of 
that country. 


13 July 1858. 


416. 


a 4 



PROCEEDINGS OF THE 


viii 


PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE. 


Lunce, 3° die Mail, 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT: 

Mr. K. Hodgson. 
Mr. Stephenson. 
Mr. Cheetham. 
Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Mr. Campbell. 


Mr. Liddell was called to the chair. 
Committee deliberated. 

Mr. Juland Danvers examined. 


Mr. Liddell. 

Mr. Cumming Bruce. 
Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. Geo. Glyn. 

Mr. Austin Bruce. 


[Adjourned till Thursday, at Twelve o’clock. 


Jovis, 6° die Mali , 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT: 


Mr. Liddell in the Chair. 


Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Mr. C. Bruce. 

Mr. H. A. Bruce. 
Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Cheetham. 
Mr. Crawford. 


Mr. G. Glyn. 

Mr. K. Hodgson. 

Mr. Stephenson. 

Sir James Elphinstone. 
Mr. H. D. Seymour. 
Colonel Sykes. 


Mr. David I. Noad examined. 


[Adjourned to Monday, at Twelve o’clock. 


Lunce , 10° die Mail, 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT: 


Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. C-. Bruce. 

Mr. Cheetham. 

Mr. Stephenson. 


Mr. Liddell in the Chair. 

Mr. H. A. Bruce. 
Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. D. Seymour. 
Colonel Sykes. 


Mr. David Innes Noad , Mr. George Sibley , and Mr. John Freeman examined. 

[Adjourned to Thursday, at Twelve o’clock. 












SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

Jovis, 13° die Mali , 1858. 


IX 


MEMBERS PRESENT: 

Mr. Liddell in the Chair. 


Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Mr. Stephenson. 

Mr. H. A. Bruce. 

Mr. Cumming Bruce. 
Colonel Sykes. 


Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. Crawford. 

Sir James Elphinstone. 
Mr. D. Seymour. 


Mr. George Sibley further examined. 

Mr. George B. Bruce examined. 

[Adjourned to Monday, at Twelve o’clock. 


Luna, 17° die Mail, 1858. 

— 

MEMBERS PRESENT : 

Mr. Liddell in the Chair. 

Mr. A. H. Baring. 

Mr. T. G. Baring. 

Colonel Sykes. 

Mr. H. A. Bruce. 

Sir J. Elphinstone. 

Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. G. B. Bruce further examined. 

Colonel John P. Kennedy examined. 

[Adjourned to Thursday, at Twelve o’clock. 


Mr. Cheetham. 

Mr. Stephenson. 

Mr. Cumming Bruce. 
Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Glyn. 


Jovis, 20° die Mail, 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT: 


Mr. A. H. Baring. 

Mr. T. G. Baring. 

Colonel Sykes. 

Mr. H. A. Bruce. 

Mr. Stephenson. 

Colonel J. P. Kennedy further examined. 

Colonel Thomas Townsend Pears examined. 

[Adjourned to Thursday, 3d June, at Twelve o’clock. 


Mr. Liddell in the Chair. 

Mr. Cheetham. 
Mr. Crawford. 
Mr. Glyn. 

Mr. D. Seymour. 


Jovis, 3° die Junii, 1858. 


Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Mr. Cheetham. 
Mr. C- Bruce. 

Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. George Glyn. 

Colonel Pears examined. 


MEMBERS PRESENT: 

Mr. Liddell in the Chair. 

Colonel Sykes. 

Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. Campbell. 

Sir J. Elphinstone. 


[Adjourned to Monday, at Twelve o’clock. 


416. 


b 


Lunce> 














X 


PROCEEDINGS OF THE 


Luna, T die Junii , 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT .' 


Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Mr. H. A. Bruce. 
Colonel Sykes. 
Mr. Crawford. 
Mr. C. Bruce. 


Mr. Liddell in the Chair. 

Mr. Cheetham. 

Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. A. H. Baring 
Mr. H. D. Seymour. 


Mr. James Walker examined. 


[Adjourned to Thursday, at Twelve o’clock. 


Jovis, 10° die Junii, 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT : 

Mr. Liddell in the Chair. 


Mr. T. G. Baring. 

Mr. Stephenson. 

Mr. Cheetham. 

Mr. C. Bruce. 

Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. James Walker further examined. 


Colonel Sykes. 
Mr. A. Baring. 
Mr. Crawford. 
Mr. Glyn. 

Mr. D. Seymour. 


Mr. J. B. Bruce and Mr. Thomas R. Watt examined. 


[Adjourned to Monday, at Twelve o’clock. 


Luna, 14° die Junii, 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT : 


Mr. Liddell in the Chair. 


Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Mr. Crawford. 
Colonel Sykes. 
Mr. D. Seymour. 


Mr. Cheetham. 

Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. C. Bruce. 

Mr. H. A. Bruce. 


Mr. William Balk Andrew and Colonel William Erskine Baker examined. 


[Adjourned to Thursday, at Twelve o’clock. 


Jovis, 17° die Junii, 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT : 

Mr. Liddell in the Chair. 


Mr. H. G. Baring. 
Mr. Crawford. 
Colonel Sykes. 


Mr. D. Seymour. 
Mr. C. Bruce. 

Sir J. Elphinstone, 


Colonel William E. Baker further examined. 

Sir Macdonald Stephenson examined. 

[Adjourned to Monday, at Twelve o’clock. 














SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


XI 


Lunce , 21 # die Junii , 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT : 


Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. Cheetham. 
Mr. D. Seymour. 
Mr. H. G. Baring. 
Colonel Sykes. 


Mr. Liddell in the Chair. 

Mr. C. Bruce. 

Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. H. A. Bruce. 
Mr. Glyn. 


Sir James Melvill and Colonel Pears examined. 


[Adjourned to Thursday, at Twelve o’clock. 


Jovis, 24° die Junii , 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT : 


Mr. H. G. Baring. 
Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Colonel Sykes. 
Mr. Cheetham. 


Mr. Liddell in the Chair. 

Mr. C. Bruce. 

Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. H. Austen Bruce. 


Mr. David /. Noad, Sir Macdonald Stephenson , and Mr. H. B. Bruce examined. 


[Adjourned to Thursday, 8th July, at Twelve o’clock, to consider Report. 


Jovis, 8° die Julii , 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT: 

Mr. Liddell in the Chair. 

Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. A. Bruce. 

Mr. D. Seymour. 

Mr. Cheetham. 

Mr. T. G. Baring 


Mr. Hodgson. 
Colonel Sykes. 

Mr. G. Glyn. 

Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Sir J. Elphinstone. 


Draft Report proposed by the Chairman, read 1°, as follows :— 

“ 1. Your Committee were appointed * to inquire into the causes of the delay which has 
occurred in the construction of railways in India.’ They have taken evidence from many of 
the best authorities on the subject, viz., gentlemen connected with the Indian Government 
at home, officers of high standing and long experience of public works in India, as well as 
secretaries and engineers belonging to the different railway companies, and are agreed upon 
the following Report:— 

“ 2. There are seven distinct companies at present engaged in constructing lines of 
railway in India, under the guarantee of the Government: 

“ 1. The East India Railway Company engaged to construct a line from Calcutta via 
Rajmahal, Agra, and Delhi- to Lahore, with a branch from Mirzapoor to Jubbulpoor. 

“ 2. The Great Indian Peninsular Company, who have undertaken a line from Bombay 
in a north-easterly direction to Jubbulpoor, to meet the East Indian Branch, and a 
line in a south-easterly direction via Poonah and Sholapore to Bellary, there to meet 
the Madras line. 

416. b 2 


“ 3 . The 










PROCEEDINGS OF THE 


xii 


« 3 . The Madras Railway Company engaged in constructing a line from Madras to 
Bellary to join that from Bombay, and a south-west line to the opposite coast, at or 
near to Beypoor. 

“ 4 . The Bombay and Baroda Company undertake a line from Bombay via Surat, to 
Baroda and Ahmedabad. 

« 5 . The Scinde and Punjaub Railway Company, who are to make a line from 
Kurrachee to Kotrie on the Indus, and from Moultan to Lahore in the Punjaub. 

“ 6. The Eastern Bengal from Calcutta to Dacca. 

“ 7. The Great Southern of India from Nizapatam to Trichinopoly, with a branch to 
Sotem. 

“ 3. The first Indian Railway project was broached in the latter end of 1844, by Mr. 
Macdonald Stephenson, who submitted.to the India House a scheme for a line from Calcutta 
to the north-west of India, based upon minute information and statistics collected by himself 
on the spot, and almost simultaneously Mr. Chapman submitted a scheme for a railway 
from Bombay towards the interior. 

“ 4. The East India Railway was formed in June 1845, and the engineering staff sent from 
this country having made the necessary surveys and investigations, the Board, before the 
end of that year, expressed to the Court their readiness to discuss the terms upon which the 
work was to be carried on ; great difficulties, however, were thrown in the way of any 
satisfactory settlement of conditions, the terms of the guarantee forming the main subject of 
discussion, and long negotiations ensued, for a more detailed account of which your Com¬ 
mittee would refer to the evidence of Mr. Danvers, Mr. Noad, Sir James Melvill, and Sir 
Macdonald Stephenson. 

“ 5. At length, in August 1847, a large staff of engineers was sent out, and there seemed 
a fair prospect of commencing operations during the ensuing cool season, and a call was 
made on the shareholders with a view to provide the deposit, when, unhappily, the com¬ 
mercial crisis of 1847 intervened, followed by the French revolution of 1848; twa events 
which, for the moment, completely paralysed all commercial operations. Owing to these 
untoward circumstances, the Railway Company appears to have experienced considerable 
difficulty in completing the deposits required by the Court, which refused to make any con¬ 
cessions, and threatened to suspend all further negotiations; this resulted in July 1848, 
in a fresh proposition on the part of the Railway Company, and difficulties were again raised 
as to the guarantee; and after the loss of much valuable time, these prolonged negotiations 
terminated in a compromise, which was brought into the form of a contract, and signed in 
August 1849. Some further time was subsequently lost in correspondence with the Home 
Authorities in regard to contracts, salaries of engineers, and other matters. And it was not 
until January 1851, that the Railway Company resumed active operations (the work being 
limited to an experimental section from Calcutta to Raneegunge). 

11 6. In February 1855, the whole of the first section out of Calcutta, of 121 miles, was 
opened for traffic, and during this time arrangements were concluded for the extension of 
ih e line to Delhi, a distance of 1,164 miles. These works are in course of construction ; and 
in the present year another 125 miles between Allahabad and Cawnpore will be opened. 
The other sections will be completed in succession, and the whole may be expected to be 
open in 1862. The entire length of line sanctioned is about 1,400 miles, including the 
branch of 300 miles between Mirzapore and Jubbulpoor, recently sanctioned; and the 
estimated cost is put at 12,381,000/. 

“ 7. The Great Indian Peninsular Railway Company wasformed in the spring of 1845,under 
the auspices of Mr. John Chapman, but they did not succeed in obtaining their Act of 
Parliament until August 1849, when an agreement was entered into between the East India 
Company and the Railway Company for the construction of an experimental line from 
Bombay to Callian, a distance of 33 miles. The first sod was turned in October 1850, and 
the whole length completed in May 1854. 

“ 8. The entire length of line sanctioned, and upon the capital for the construction of which 
interest at5 per cent.is guaranteed, is 1,235 miles, of which only 88^ miles are as yet open ; 442 
miles more are now under construction, to be completed by the end of 1861 ; 595 miles are 
about to be let, to be completed by March 1862; and 110 miles are in abeyance; makino- 
a total of 1,235 miles, the whole of the companies’ undertakings. 

“ 9. The Madras Line. —A company was first formed for the construction of a railway at 
Madras in 1845, but, after two years’ unsuccessful application for a guarantee, it was 
dissolved in 1847. The present company was then formed, and applied, in May of that 
year, to the Court of Directors for a guarantee, which was at that time altogether declined 
the Court replying that, until the result of the experiments already authorised in Bengal and 
Bombay had been seen, they were not disposed to grant any further guarantee. 

“10. The application was renewed in February 1850,but more than two years elapsed before 
any arrangement was come to, and it was not until May 1852 that the East India Company 
conceded to the Madras Railway Company 4| per cent, on 500,000 /. for an experimental 
line, beginning at Madras, and proceeding in a westerly direction. The Act of Incorpora¬ 
tion passed in June 1853, and the first sod was turned in July of that year; and in Julv 
1856 the first poition of the line, 65 miles in length, was opened. 


“ 11. In 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


xiii 

“ 11 . In September 1853 the railway company agreed to a proposal from the East India 
Company to extend the line to the West Coast, with branches to Bangalore, and the foot of 
the Neilgherry Hills; and for that purpose the East India Company agreed to increase the 
capital on which they would guarantee interest to 4,000,000 l. The Act of Parliament was 
obtained in June 1854, and the extended contract signed in December 1855 ; a further ex¬ 
tension was subsequently proposed by the Court of Directors, and the railway company 
undertook the execution of a line from Madras, via Bellary, to a junction with the line 
coming from Bombay to the southward, and for which another 1 , 000,000 l. was raised in 
September 1856. 

“ 12 . Different rates of interest, varying from 4| to 4| and 5 per cent., were guaranteed 
on the different amounts of capital thus raised, and considerable dissatisfaction seems to have 
been produced in the minds of the original shareholders in consequence. 

“ 13. The Bombay, Baroda , and Central India scheme was sanctioned by the home 
Government in April 1355, the surveys having been completed in April 1854, when the 
Supreme Government of India approved and recommended the main extent of line from 
Bombay via Surat and Broach to Ahmedabad, but the home authorities withheld their 
sanction until November 1857 from that important portion of the line, which is to connect 
Surat with Bombay, the only real port of shipment for the rich products of Guzerat. The 
reasons assigned for this long delay are, that, owing to the difficulties presented by the 
country, doubts were at first entertained as to the practicability of the route, and differences 
of opinion prevailed among the local engineers ; that subsequently reference was made to the 
Government of India on the subject, and a good deal of discussion arose in India between 
the Government of Bombay and the Supreme Government thereon. Great objections have 
also been and are still felt to the existence of two large railway termini in Bombay; the 
mode of entry thereto is still undetermined, and the arrangements for the use of a common 
terminus with the Great Indian Peninsular Company yet remain unsettled. For further parti¬ 
culars respecting this line, your Committee would refer to the valuable evidence of Colonel 
Kennedy, whose view's and elaborate calculations upon the whole subject of lailway com¬ 
munication for India are deserving of careful consideration. 

“ 14. The Scinde and Puvjaub Railway Company was formed in December 1854, and the 
Act oflncorporation obtained in July 1855, but the necessary surveys had been all taken in 
1853 (under instructions from the Bombay Government, and on the recommendation of the 
Scinde Commissioner), by Lieutenant Chapman, an eminent engineer in the Bombay service, 
and approved by the superintending engineer of the province, the Government having 
apparently had some intention of making the line themselves. The company commenced 
their surveys in June 1855, and all were completed by xAugust 1857, during which time 11 
different routes were surveyed by direction of the local government. Various schemes and 
conflicting propositions were mooted and discussed during the absence of Mr. Frere, the 
Commissionerof Scinde, and Colonel Crawfoid,the eminent consulting engineer to the Bombay 
Government, and no small confusion seems to have been created by the consequent change 
in the local authorities, who had every power to interfere and determine how the works were to 
be constructed, but no power to compel any deviation from the original points laid down as 
the termini of the line at Kurrachee and Kotree, a town on the Indus, opposite Hyderabad, 
because the contract had been executed, and the whole matter investigated on the spot, and 
approved by the then existing authorities ; and after a loss of fully 18 months the identical 
line, as originally sanctioned, is now in course of construction. I he whole distance from 
* Kurrachee’ to ‘ Kotree’ is 110 miles, and the character of the country favourable. For 
further information as to the entire scheme of the Scinde and Punjaub Railway, your 
Committee would refer to the evidence of Mr. Andrew. 

« 15 . There are two other railv\ay schemes for India guaranteed, and undertaken by 
separate companies, viz., the Eastern Bengal, from Calcutta to Jessore and Dacca, and the 
Great Southern of India, from Nizapatam to Trinchinopoly, with branches; but although 
each appears to offer great ultimate commercial advantages, being* still in their infancy, your 
Committee have not thought it necessary to institute any minute inquiries into their history. 

“ 16. The delays which appear to attend railway construction in India may be classified 
under four distinct heads : 

« 1 . Delays arising from Government supervision at home and in India. 

“ 2. Delays incidental to the execution of extensive and complicated public works 
in a distant country. 

“ 3 . Delays arising from the natural difficulties which the face of the country presents. 

“ 4 . Delays produced by political causes, such as mutiny, and those insurrectionary 
movements which have unhappily of late been too frequent in India. 

“ 17. Your Committee will proceed to notice each class of delay in the order thus given, 
but it is necessary, before doing so, to describe shortly what the system of railway construc¬ 
tion pursued in India is. Indian railways are constructed by companies formed in this 
country, and incorporated by Acts of Parliament; all their proceedings, operations, and ex¬ 
penditurebeing subject to the supreme control of the Government, who engage to grant all 
the land required, free of expense, to the companies, and to guarantee interest, generally at 
the rate of five per cent, per annum, for 99 years, upon the capital employed. 

416. t >3 


“ 18 . The 


xir 


PROCEEDINGS OF THE 


“ 18 . The following conditions are attached to the guarantee and the granting of the land : 

“ ‘ The Railway Company have the power of surrendering the works at any time after 
the line is opened, upon giving six months’ notice to the Government, and the East 
India Company undertake to repay the whole amount that has been expended by the 
Railway Company. 

“ 1 The East India Company have the power, within six months after the expiration of 
25 or 50 years, of purchasing the railway at the mean market value, in London, of the 
shares during the three previous years. In case the Railway Company fail to complete 
the line or to work it satisfactorily, the Government is entitled to take possession, and 
repay within six months the sums expended. 

“ * The Railway Company repay the guaranteed interests from the profits of the 
railway.’ 

“ 19 . The supervision of the Government over the proceedings of the railway companies 
is of two distinct kinds, viz., that exercised in the person of the ex officio Director over the 
Railway Boards in London,and that exercised by the consulting engineer in India, to whom 
is committed the charge of superintending on behalf of Government all railway operations 
in that country. 

“ 20 . Supervision at Home. —The duties of Official Director at all the different Railway 
Boards are performed by the same person, and he has, under the terms of the contract, a 
power of veto over all the proceedings of the Board, but it does not appear that this power 
has ever been exerted ; indeed, until a comparatively recent period, his functions appear to 
have been confined to giving information to the Court of Directors upon points on which 
they might require it, and his assistance and advice towards the promotion of the various 
undertakings; but authority has been lately given to him to sanction all indents ( or requi¬ 
sitions) for stores and materials which may have been approved by the local governments in 
India, and the acceptance of tenders for the supply of the same, and to give consent to any 
purchases that may be originated at the Board without having been indented for from 
India. 

“ 21 . Previous to this important extension of the powers of the official director, each indivi¬ 
dual indent was submitted to the home authorities, and the process is thus described by Sir 
James Melvill: ‘ The indent came from the railway authorities in India to the Railu ay Board in 
this country; the Board then came to its decision upon it; and if they proposed to comply 
with it, they sent a resolution to that effect to the Court of Directors ; the court came to an 
opinion upon it, and their opinion was submitted for the concurrence of the Board of Control, 
and when the indent was returned with the opinion of both authorities, the decision was 
communicated to the Railway Board.’ Such a system necessarily entailed a very con¬ 
siderable amount of delay and correspondence, and the best results may be anticipated from 
the judicious changes lately effected in this respect. 

“ 22 . The process of forwarding instructions from the Railway Boards to their agents in 
India also seems to your Committee to require improvement. Sir James Melvill thus 
describes it: ‘ The Railway Board prepares a draft of the instructions to its agent in India, 
and every such draft, without exception, is submitted to the Court of Directors ; the Court, 
expressing an opinion upon it, submit it to the Board of Control, and when both authorities 
are agreed, the letter is returned to the Railway Board, with an intimation that the Court of 
Directors offer no objection to it.’ Considerable delays have not unfrequently resulted from 
this cause; and though it is, no doubt, important that instructions to railway agents should 
go out to India backed by the whole weight and authority of the approval of the Home 
Government, your Committee would confidently expect that the contemplated consolidation 
of the departments of the India Board and the Board of Control will materially expedite 
the future transaction of railway business. Before leaving this branch of the subject, your 
Committee would remark that the harmony which almost universally prevails at the Railway 
Boards seems to be in no small degree attributable to the tact and discretion exercised on 
all occasions by the Official Director. 

“23. Supervision in India .—Under the terms of the contract the Government have an 
almost unlimited power of control over the acts and operations of the railway companies, 
the inspection and supervision of the works being in every case delegated to a military 
engineer, whose duty, as described by Colonel Baker, is, in the first instance, to examine 
the line of country over which it is proposed to construct a railway, to examine all the designs 
and estimates, to audit all expenditure, to report upon completed works, and to maintain a 
real check over all the acts of the railway officers. 

“24. Your Committee hesitate to express any opinion as to the policy of employing 
military men in the inspection of railway works and the control of civil engineers, but it is 
quite clear that to ensure cordial co-operation requires the exercise of no small amount of 
tact and discretion on both sides; too minute an interference in details, while unnecessary for 
practical economy, involves constant controversy, lengthy correspondence and consequent 
delay, besides engendering irritation and discord where friendly and united action ought to 
subsist. And your Committee are decidedly of opinion that to ensure the speedy and efficient 
completion of railways in India the utmost freedom of action ought to be afforded to the 
efforts of the different companies, consistent with the control necessary to protect from undue 
expenditure the Indian Exchequer, upon which the payment of the guaranteed interest must 
lung remain a heavy charge. 


“25. Complaints 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


xv 


“ 25. Complaints of minute interference on the part of the Government consulting 
engineer have been strongly urged from the Madras Presidency, for the farther details of 
which your Committee would refer to the evidence of Mr. Bruce, Mr. Walker, and Colonel 
Pears; and directions have been sent out from the home authorities to the Madras to 
relax the extent of supervision in force there; but it does not appear in evidence that those 
instructions have as yet taken effect. 

“ 2(5. Other complaints, but in a minor degree, have arisen,both in Bengal and Bombay, 
though in the latter Presidency the relations between the Government and the Great Indian 
Peninsular Railway officials appear to be, for the most part, of a harmonious and satisfactory 
character. 

“ 27. The delays incidental to the construction of railways in so distant a country as 
India are of various kinds and degrees of magnitude. The cost and means of obtaining 
freight must always be regulated, and, in the opinion of many competent authorities, 
actually limited by the home demand for Indian produce; and hence the transport across 
the sea of the vast mass of dead weight necessary for the construction of thousands of miles 
of iron way, besides locomotives, iron work for bridges, and other materials, forms an item 
of delay second only in importance to the difficulties which impede the conveyance of these 
materials up the country, where the means of internal communication are in many places 
very imperfect, where river navigation during the dry season is liable to constant inter¬ 
ruption, where boats are scarce, and native boatmen careless. To these difficulties may be 
added the want severely felt in many districts, and especially in Bengal, of fuel for lime and 
brick burning, and of timber suitable for sleepers, large quantities of which are now being 
supplied from England ; not to mention the effects of Indian climate upon European con¬ 
stitutions, the failures of contractors, unaccustomed or incompetent to undertake such 
extensive works; and last, though not least, the circuitous and lengthy correspondence 
carried on between the Railway Boards and their agents, on the one hand, with the various 
Government departments, both here and in India, on the other; all these appear to your 
Committee to form sources of delay more or less serious, and must always be classed among 
the main impediments to railway enterprise in India. 

“ 28. Delays from Political Causes have been of frequent occurrence; in Bengal the Santhal 
rebellion in 1855, is described as having thrown back the works in the Rajmahal district for 
12 months, and the evil influences resulting from it are not even yet at an end. 

“ The Mutiny subsequently suspended railway operations in Upper Bengal and the North- 
West Provinces from May to December of last year, and its disastrous consequences must 
be felt for some time to come, although the actual damage done to the works appears to be 
less than might have been anticipated. 

“ Railway operations in the other Presidencies have hitherto been happily free from the 
disturbing influences of insurrection and war. 

“ 29. Lastly come the delays arising from the natural circumstances of the country, such 
as the bridging of large rivers, and the surmounting of the ghauts. Mr. Noad in his 
evidence states, that the whole question of the completion of the East India Railway resolves 
itself into the rapidity with which they can construct the enormous number of heavy bridges 
and valley arches. Along the Ganges Valley line, between Burdwau and the river Soan, a 
distance of about 400 miles, there are described to be no less than 47,000,000 cubic feet of 
brickwork, including the substructure of the gigantic bridge over the Soan. 

“ 30. On the Bombay and Baroda line, between Surat and Ahmedabad, three large and 
rapid rivers, the Tapter, Nerbudda and Mhye, present considerable engineering difficulties, 
and require costly and extensive bridges; on that important portion of the line between 
Surat and Bombay, no fewer than 18 rivers have to be crossed, one of which, known as the 
Bassein Strait, is described to be 1 J mile in extent. On portions of the Madras and Gieat 
Indian Peninsular lines also, the bridging works are described to be very heavy ; but even 
the oreat works thus enumerated appear insignificant in comparison to the stupendous task 
undertaken by the Great Indian Peninsular Company of carrying their railway across the 
two mountain ranges known as the Thull Ghaut and the Bhor Ghaut, the former on the. 
north-easterly, the latter on the south-easterly portions of the line. On the Thull Ghaut the 
ascent is nine miles, the; total rise in that distance 972 feet, the steepest gradient is one in 
37, for a distance of 11 miles 44 chains, and the works include 1,962 lineal yards of 
tunnelling, and 614 yards of viaduct, at an estimated cost of 49,988 l. per mile. On the 
Bhor Ghaut the steepest gradient is 1 in 67 for a mile and 38 chains, the total distance is 
15 miles 68 chains, the total rise in that distance, 1,831 feet, the tunnelling is 2,535 yards, 
and the viaduct 8S8 yards, the estimated cost being 48,188 1 per mile. 

“ 3 i. With the exception of the ghauts and rivers, however, the general face of the country 
seems favourable for railway construction, presenting easy gradients ; and the very low price 
of labour keeps down the cost to an average for the whole country of about 10,000 l a mile, 
while many of the less expensive lines are being constructed at a cost of 6,000 l. per mile. 

** 32 . Upon an impartial review of the early history of Indian railways, there can be no 
doubt that much valuable time was lost in the preliminary arrangements for railway con¬ 
struction in India ; and although the novelty and magnitude of the undertaking, the remote¬ 
ness of the scene of operations, and the natural difficulties of climate and country might well 

416. t> 4 have 


XVI 


PROCEEDINGS OF THE 


have raised doubts and hesitation in the minds of the Indian authorities at home, your Com¬ 
mittee are decidedly of opinion that had they taken the matter up at first with the earnestness 
that its importance, both commercial and political, deserved ; had they met the proposals of 
the originators with the same liberality they have since displayed in their agreements with 
the different companies, our Indian possessions might ere this have been provided with many 
hundreds of miles of rapid internal communication, the value of which would have been felt 
in the facilities afforded for military concentration and the more speedy development of their 
wealthy resources. At the same time your Committee cannot in fairness omit to observe, 
that though several cases have undoubtedly been shown where the Government superin¬ 
tendence has been productive of vexation and annoyance in the minds of the railway officials, 
and tended to impede that harmonious action between the Government and the companies 
which is essential for the rapid completion of these great works, no very material delay in 
the construction of the various lines appears to have resulted therefrom; and testimony has- 
been borne by many of the railway authorities to the value of Government control to the 
interests of the companies themselves, when rationally and reasonably exercised. 

u 33. Your Committee have not thought it necessary to enter into any comparison of the 
respective merits of the contract and departmental systems of construction, the adoption of 
which must always materially depend on the circumstances of the district; and it appears 
highly necessary that both systems should have a fair trial before giving any decided pre¬ 
ference to either. In Bengal, where the contract system seems to have been introduced 
somewhat hastily, extensive failures have occurred, and much delay and inconvenience has 
thereby resulted. 

“ 34. In conclusion, your Committee are of opinion, first, that the Government has acted 
wisely in committing to private enterprise the execution of these great public works ; second, 
that a guaranteed interest on the requisite capital was indispensable to induce the public to 
invest their money in undertakings of this magnitude and novelty; and, third, that in order 
to protect the public revenue from undue expenditure, Government control over the railway 
operations is not only legitimate, but even valuable to the interests of the shareholders them¬ 
selves. At the same time your Committee would observe, that under a system complicated in 
its character, and necessarily somewhat cumbrous in its machinery, a system, moreover, the 
greatest defect of which is the facility it affords for the evasion of responsibility, a clear and 
distinct definition of the duties, responsibilities and extent of jurisdiction of all heads of 
departments and those under them, is essentially requisite for its smooth and successful 
working; always assuming that due care be taken to entrust discretionary power only to 
men who are to be relied on as competent to distinguish an essential general control from 
special and minute interference in minor details. 

“ 35. By a judicious construction of the spirit rather than the letter of the contract, your 
Committee feel assured that arrangements may be simplified, united action for one common 
object secured, and railway enterprise in India may before long assume proportions com¬ 
mensurate with the vast commercial, agricultural and mineral resources of that country.” 


Draft Report proposed by Mr. Baring, read 1°, as follows 

“ !• Your Committee were appointed ‘ to inquire into the causes of the delay which has 
occurred in the construction of railways in India.’ They have taken evidence from many of 
the best authorities on the subject, viz., gentlemen connected with the Indian Government 
at home, officers of high standing and long experience of public works in India, as well as 
secretaries and engineers belonging to the different railway companies, and are agreed upon 
the following Report:— 1 

“ 2. The first Indian Railway project was broached in the latter end of 1844, by Mr. 
Macdonald Stephenson, who submitted a scheme for a line from Calcutta to the north-west 
of India; and almost simultaneously, Mr. Chapman submitted a scheme for a railway from 
Bombay towards the interior. A company was also formed in 1845 for the construction of 
a railway from Madras to Arcot. 


“ 3 - Tlie Home Government, while recognising the proposals to be eminently deserving 
encouragement and co-operation, considered it to be indispensable that before proceeding 
further the applicability of railway communication to India should be accurately investigated 
by competent persons on the spot. This inquiry was ordered in the spring of 1845, and the 
result of it was received from India in the autumn of 1846. Questions then arose as to the 
terms upon which assistance should be given to the companies, in order to enable them to 
raise the requisite capital. While these were still undetermined, the commercial crisis of 
1847-8 intervened; it was not till 1849 that money could be raised ; and in August of that 
year contracts were entered into with two companies for the construction of experimental lines 
in the I lesidencies of Bengal and Bombay. In 1852, the Home Government consulted the 
Government ol India upon the extension of of these lines, and the adoption of others which 
had in the meantime been proposed ; and the Minute of Lord Dalhousie of April ^8 1853 
written after communication with the minor Presidencies, has been the foundation of the 
subsequent proceedings. 


“4. The terms of the contracts between the East India Company and the Railway Com¬ 
panies are, that the Government grant ail the land required free of expense, and guarantee in¬ 


terest 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


XVII 


terest (generally at the rate of 5 per cent.) for 99 years upon the capital employed. The Com¬ 
panies have the power ofsurrendering the works at any time after the line is opened,upon giving 
six months’ notice, and the East India Company undertake to repay the whole amount that 
has been expended. The East India Company have the power, alter the expiration of 25 or 
50 years, of purchasing the railway at the mean market value of the shares during the three 
previous years. In case the Companies fail to complete their lines or to work them satisfactorily, 
the Government is entitled to take possession, and repay within six months the sums 
expended. The Companies repay the guaranteed interests from the profits of the railway. 

All their proceedings are made subject to the supreme control of the Government. 

“ 5. There are seven distinct companies at present engaged in constructing lines of railway 
in India, under the guarantee of the Government: 

“ 1 . The East India Railway Company has engaged to construct a line from Cal¬ 
cutta via Rajmahal and Agra, to Delhi, with a branch from Mirzapoor to Jubbul- 
poor. 

“ 2 . The Great Indian Peninsular Company have undertaken a line from Bombay 
in a north-easterly direction to Jubbulpoor, to meet the East Indian Branch, and a line 
in a south-easterly diiection via Poonah and Sholapore to Bellary, there to meet the 
Madras line. 

“ 3. The Madras Railway Company are engaged in constructing a line from Madras 
to the opposite coast, at or near to Beypoor, and also one to Bellary to join that from 
Bombay. 

“ 4. The Bombay and Baroda Company undertake a line from Bombay via Surat, 
to Baroda and Ahmedabad. 

“ 5. The Scinde and Punjaub Railway Company are to make a line from Kurrachee 
to Kotrie on the Indus, and from Moultan to Lahore in the Punjaub. 

“ 6. The Eastern Bengal from Calcutta to Dacca. 

“ 7. The Great Southern of India from Nizapatam to Trichinopoly, with a branch 
to Sotem. 

“ Your Committee have received interesting evidence upon the proceedings of these Com¬ 
panies, with ihe exception of the two last, which are still in their infancy. Parts of the Last 
Indian,* Great Indian Peninsulaiyf- and Madras Railroads J are now open, and it is con- * 121 

fidently expected that within the next four years, not less than 3,000 miles of the main trunk + £> 8 .J 

lines of railway will be completed, and opened for traffic. £ 81 

“ 6 . Your Committee are of opinion, that considerable delay has occurred between the 
proposals made by the different Railway Companies and the sanction of their lines by the 
grant of a guarantee; and that, in some cases, a more speedy decision might (as it now 
appears) have been safely arrived at. But your Committee are not disposed to attach any 
blame to the Home Government of India for having considered with great deliberation 
schemes for which the revenues of India are made responsible in case of failure; and the 
delay between the years 1046 and 1849 is to be mainly attributed to the impossibility of 
raising funds in consequence of the state of the money market. Your Committee desire to 
record their opinion, that the East India Company, throughout the proceedings under review, 
strongly advocated the rapid development of railway enterprise in India. 

“ 7 . Your Committee have investigated, at some length, the complaints which have been 
made of the manner in which the control of the Government has been exercised over the 
proceedings of the Railway Companies; and they are not of opinion that any material delay 
in the construction of the several Lines has resulted therefrom. The conduct of the official 
Director of the Railway Board, Sir James Melvill, has been eminently calculated to facilitate 
the transaction of business in this country, and your Committee are glad to find that more 
extensive powers have recently been given to him. Some misconceptions appear to have 
arisen in India, both on the part of the Local Governments and of the Railway officials, as to 
the nature and extent of the supervision ; but your Committee believe that these are rapidly 
being removed by experience, as well as by the orders of the East India Company. Much 
vexation and annoyance in the minds of the Railway officials at Madras, has been caused by 
the publication, in India, of reports containing matierof censure against them, but this practice 
has been discontinued in consequence of orders from home. 

“ 8 . Your Committee are of opinion that, taking into consideration the difficulty of com¬ 
mencing railway undertakings in India, the physical obstacles presented in some parts by 
the nature of the country, and the delays caused by the Santhal insurrection and the 
mutiny, the progress hitherto made is satisfactory ; that the works (so far as the evidence 
enables them to judge) have been substantially and economically constructed, aud that the 
result is highly creditable to the railway companies. 

tl 9. In conclusion, your Committee are of opinion that the Government have acted 
wisely in committing to private enterprise the execution of these great public works; that a 
guaranteed interest on the capital was indispensable in order to induce the public to invest 
their money in undertakings of this magnitude and novelty ; that, in order to protect the 
revenue of India, Government control over the railway operations is indispensable, aud that 
it is also valuable to the interests of the shareholders themselves. At the same time, your 
Committee would observe that, under a system complicated in its character, and necessarily 

41 G. c somewhat 


miles. 

miles. 

miles. 


xfiii PROCEEDINGS OF THE 

somewhat cumbrous in its machinery, it is essential that the duties, responsibilities, and: 
extent of jurisdiction of all heads of departments, and those under them, should be clearly 
defined ; and they consider that the attention both of the home Government and of the 
governments of the different presidencies in India, should continue to be directed to the 
simplification of the supervision to the full extent that is practicable, consistently with 
the retention of complete control over the expenditure of the railway companies in the 
construction of their lines.” 


Motion made, and Question, u That the Report proposed by the Chairman be now 
read 2°, and considered paragraph by paragraph,” put and agreed to. 

Paragraph 1, read, amended, and agreed to. 

Paragraph 2, read, and amendments made.—Amendment proposed, To leave out the 
word “ Lahore,” in line 2, for the purpose of inserting the words the north west ” (Mr. 
Baring), instead thereof.—Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. 

Paragraph 2, as amended, agreed to. 


Paragraph 3, read.—Amendment proposed, at the end of the paragraph, to add these 
words: u and a company was also formed, in 1845, for the construction of a railway from 
Madras to Arcot” (Mr. Baring ).—Question, “ That those words be there added,” put and 
agreed to. Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. 

Paragraph 4, read.—Motion made, and question put, “ That this paragraph be now con¬ 
sidered” (Mr. Seymour ). The Committee divided. 


Ayes, 5. 
Mr. Crawford. 
Mr. Campbell. 
Mr. A. Bruce. 
Mr. D. Seymour 
Mr. Cheetham. 


Noes, 6. 

Mr T. G. Baring. 
Mr. Hodgson. 
Colonel Sykes. 

Mr. G. Glyn. 

Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Sir J. Elphinstone 


Paragraph 4 postponed. 

Paragraphs 5 to 15, severally read, and considered.—Motion made, and question proposed, 
“ That the paragraphs from 5 to 15, inclusive, be severally postponed ’’(Sir J. Elphinstone ).— 
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the words “ That the” to the end of the question, 
for the purpose of adding the words, “ Committee now proceed with the consideration of 
the proposed Report,” (Mr. Seymour) instead thereof.—Question put, “ That the words 
proposed to be left out stand part of the question.”—Committee divided : 


Ayes, 6. 

Mr. T. G. Baring. 

Mr. Hodgson,. 

Colonel Sykes. 

Mr. Glyn. 

Mr. Alexander Baring. 
Sir J. Elphinstone. 


Noes, 5. 
Mr. Crawford. 
Mr. Campbell. 
Mr. A. Bruce. 
Mr. Seymour. 
Mr. Cheetham. 


Main Question put, and agreed to. 

Paragraphs 16 to 22, severally read, amended and agreed to. 

Paragraph 23, read, and agreed to. 

Postponed paragraphs, 4 to 15, inclusive, severally again read.—Question, “ That these 
paragraphs stand part of proposed Report,” put, and negatived. 

Paragraph 24, read.—Amendment proposed, after the word “ co-operation,” to insert the 
words ‘no small amount of forbearance and discretion must be exercised ” (Mr Craw¬ 
ford).— Question, “ That those words be there inserted,” put, and agreed to.—Par’aeraDh 
as amended, agreed to. ® r * 


Paragraph 25, read, and amended.—Amendment proposed, after the word “Evidence” 

3> t0 ^ Se n th ?‘ W ° rd f’;^ hlC \ com P ,aints appear to be in part well founded” 
(Mr. Seymour). Question put, “ That those words be there inserted.” Committee divided ; 


Ayes, 5. 

Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. D. Seymour. 
Mr. Cheetham. 


Noes, 3. 

Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Colonel Sykes. 

Mr. Glyn. 


Amendment proposed, after the word “ founded,” to insert the words, “ on the other 
hand your Committee cannot think that the proceedings of the chief engineer of the Railway 
Company has been wholly free from blame ” (Mr. %taow.)-QuestioS, “ That those words 
be there added, put, and agreed to. 

Amendments made. 


Amendment 





SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


X’X 


Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word “ those,” in 1. 5, to the end of the 
paragraph (Mr. T. G. Haring). —Question put, “That the words proposed to be left out 
stand part of the paragraph.” Committee divided : 


Ayes, 4. 
Mr. Crawford. 
Mr. Campbell. 
Mr. D. Seymour. 
Mr. Cheetham. 


Noes, 4. 

Mr. T. G; Baring. 

Mr. A. Bruce. 

Mr. Glyn. 

Mr. Alexander Baring. 


Whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Ayes. 

Amendment proposed, at the end of the paragraph, to add these words : “ Your Committee, 
however, have had no opportunity of hearing an explanation from the Madras Government 
on the subject ” (Mr. Baring.)— Question, “ That those words be there added,” put, and 
agreed to.—Question, “That this paragraph, as amended, stand part of proposed Report,” 
put, and agreed to. 

Paragraphs, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31 severally read, amended, and agreed to. 

Paragraph 32, read.— Amendment proposed, after the word “Preliminary,” to leave 
out to the word “ and,” in 1. 2, for the purpose of inserting these words: “ negotiations 
for the introduction of railway enterprise into India,” (Mr. Crawford ) instead thereof.— 
Question, “That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph,” put, and 
negatived.—Words inserted. 

Amendment proposed, at the end of the last Amendment, to insert the words “ and also 
on account of the commercial crisis having arisen while these negotiations were still incom¬ 
plete” (Mr. Baring). —Question put, “That those words be there inserted.” Committee 
divided: 


Ayes, 5. 

Mr. Campbell. 
Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Mr. A. Bruce. 

Mr. Glyn. 

Mr. D. Seymour. 


Noes, 2. 

Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. Alexander Baring. 


Amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out the words “ and although” (Mr. Crawford). 
—Question, “ That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph,” put, and 
negatived. 

Amendment proposed, after the word “ home,” in line 5, to insert the words: “But 
your Committee is decidedly of opinion that had the matter been taken up at first with 
the earnestness that its ‘importance, both political and commercial, deserved, in accord¬ 
ance with the proposal of the Court of Directors in 1846 to the Board of Control ; and had 
the proposals of the originators been met with the same liberality which has since been 
displayed in the ” (Mr. Crawford).— Question put, “ That those words be there inserted.” 
Committee divided: 


Ayes, 4. 
Mr. Crawford. 
Mr. A. Bruce. 
Mr. Glyn. 

Mr. A. Baring. 


Noes, 3. 

Mr. Campbell. 
Mr, T. G. Baring, 
Mr. D. Seymour. 


Further Amendments made. 

Amendment proposed, after the word “resources,” in line 13, to insert the words: “ But 
vour Committee have no means of judging of the consideration by which the Government 
were actuated in these proceedings ” (Mr. Crawford).— Question, “ That those words be 
there inserted,” put, and agreed to. 

Amendment proposed, after the word “ therefrom,” in line 18, to insert the words, “ from 
the evidence adduced your Committee are led to believe that the progress of rai roads under 
construction in India will bear favourable comparison with that of English lines (Mr, 
Alex. Baring). 


Question put, “ That those words be there inserted.” Committee divided : 


Ayes, 4. 

Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Mr. Glyn. 

Mr. Alex. Baring. 

Paragraph further amended. 


Noes, 3. 
Mr. Campbell. 
Mr. A. Bruce. 
Mr. Seymour, 


416. 


Question, 






XX PROCEEDINGS:—EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

Question, “That this paragraph, as amended, stand part of proposed Report,” put an 
agieed to. 

Paragraph 33 read. Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word “ either,” in 
line 5, to the end of ihe paragraph.—Question, “That the words proposed to be left out 
stand part of the paragraph,” put and negatived.—Question, “ That this paragraph, as 
amended, stand part of proposed Report,” put and agreed to. 

Paragraph 34 read, amended, and agreed to. 

Paragraph 35 read, and agreed to. 

Question, “That this proposed Report, as amended, be the Report of the Committee to 
The House,” put and agreed to. 

Ordered , To report the same, together with the Minutes of Evidence, and an Appendix. 


EXPENSES OF WITNESS. 


Name of Witness. 

Profession 

or Condition. 

From 

whence Summoned. 

Number 
of Days 
Absent from 
Home, 

under Orders 
of 

Committee. 

Expenses 
of Journey 
to 

London 
and back. 

Allowance 

during 

Absence 

from 

Home. 

TOTAL 

Expenses 

allowed 

to Witness. 

Colonel Pears 

, 

Burton-on-Trent 

3 

£. s. d. 
/ (twice) 1 
15 5 -/ 

£. s. d. 

3 3 - | 

£. 8. d. 

8 8 — 



















[ x *> ] 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 


0.6l. 


(1 







[ xxii ] 


LIST OF WITNESSES. 


Luna, 3° die Mail, 1858. 

Mr. Juland Danvers ------- - p. 1 

Jovis, 6 ° die Mail, 1858. 

Mr. David Innes Noad - - - - - - - - P- 23 

Lunce , 10 ° die Maii , 1858. 

Mr. David Innes Noad - - - - - - - - p* 5° 

Mr. George Sibley - - - - - - - - -p. 69 

Mr. John Freeman - - - - - - - - }>• 7 ^ 

Jovis , 13° die Maii, 1858. 

Mr. George Sibley - - - - - - - - - p. 77 

Mr. George Barclay Bruce.- - P-79 

Lunce, 17° die Maii, 1858. 

Mr. George Barclay Bruce - - - - - - -p. 102 

Colonel John Pitt Kennedy - - - - - - -p. 113 

Jovis, 20 ° die Maii, 1858. 

Colonel John Pitt Kennedy - - - - - - - p. 129 

Colonel Thomas Townsend Pears, c. b. - - - - - p. 149 

Jovis, 3° die Junii, 1858. 

Colonel Pears - - - - - - - * - - p. 155 


Lunce, 7° die Junii, 1858. 
James Walker, Esq. - 


p. 177 


Jovis, 10° die Junii, 1858. 
James Walker, Esq. ------ 

Mr. G. B. Bruce ------ 

Mr. Thomas R. Watt - 


Lunce, 14° die Junii, 1858. 

William Patrick Andrew, Esq. - 
Colonel William Erskine Baker - 

Jovis, 17° die Junii, 1858. 

Colonel William Erskine Baker - 
Sir Macdonald Stephenson - 

Lunce, 21 ° die Junii, 1858. 
Sir James Melvill, k. c. b. 

Colonel Pears - 


Jovis, 24° die Junii, 1858. 
Mr. David Innes Noad - 
Sir Macdonald Stephenson - 
Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


pp. 199 . 205 
- p. 204 
• P- 211 


- p. 221 

- P- 230 


- P- 2 44 

- p. 249 


- p. 252 

- P- 273 


- p. 280 

- p. 280 

- p. 288 

















[ > ] 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 


Lunce, 3° die Mali, 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT. 


Mr. Liddell. 

Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Mr. C. Bruce. 

Mr. H. A. Bruce. 
Mr. Campbell. 


Mr. Cheetham. 
Mr. Crawford. 
Mr. G. Glyn. 

Mr. K. Hodgson. 
Mr. Stephenson. 


H. G. LIDDELL, Esq., in the Chair. 


Mr. Juland Danvers , called in ; and Examined. 

1. Chairman .] WILL you inform the Committee what office you hold in the 
India House ?— I am Assistant to the Secretary in the India House, and part of 
my duty is to consider all matters relating to railways in India. 

2 . I believe you are at the head of that which is termed the “ Railway 
Department ” ?—We have not actually a railway department. It is a business 
which has gradually grown into existence, and it has fallen to my lot to take charge 
of the different proceedings in connection with railways in this country, and of 
the proceedings of the Government in India. I am also assistant to Sir James 
Melvill, the ex-officio director, who sits at the Railway Boards on behalf of the 
East India Company. 

3 . I understand there is no officially constituted Railway Board ?—There 
is not. 

4 . May I ask how long you have held your present office?—It is difficult 
to say exactly, for, as I said before, it has grown into existence; I happened 
to be selected to assist those who were in the first instance engaged in connection 
with railway subjects, and I should think that must be something like 10 or 11 
years ago. It is a business that has grown gradually, and now it has reached to 
a formidable extent. 

5 . Have you been connected in your office at the India House with all 
railway proceedings from their earliest commencement ?—I believe almost from 
the commencement. 

6 . What was the period at which the scheme for the construction of a line of 
railway in India was first broached ?—It was formally broached, I think, in the 
latter end of the year 1844. 

7 . Will you inform the Committee with whom the plan for constructing 
a line of railway in India originated, whether it w,as the idea of the Indian 
Government or whether it was proposed to them by an independent company in the 
first instance?—It was proposed in the first instance by Mr. Stephenson, now 
Sir Macdonald Stephenson. He submitted a scheme for a line from Calcutta to 
the north-west of India, and almost simultaneously the late Mr. Chapman likewise 
submitted a scheme for a railway from Bombay towards the interior. 

8 . Describe shortly to the Committee the process by which a railway scheme is 
presented in the first instance, and afterwards matured between an independent 
company and the Government?—A company is formed in this country, and 
incorporated by an Act of the British Legislature ; the promoters submit their 

0.61. A scheme 


Mr. J. Danvers* 


3 May 1858. 







2 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. j. Danvers, scheme to the authorities at the East India House, who have almost invariably 
referred it to the Governments in India, both to the local Government of the 
3 May 1858. Presidency to which it applies, and also to the Supreme Government. They send 
in their joint reports, and upon their opinions the Court of Directors pass their 
decision ; the concurrence, or otherwise of the Board of Control is obtained, and 
a final decision is thus arrived at. 

9 . Was not the idea of the construction of a great trunk line from Calcutta to 
the north-west first proposed as far back as the year 1841, in official correspon¬ 
dence by the gentleman you have named, the then Mr. Stephenson ?— I think 
not in this country; it is possible that it may have been proposed in India, and 
he was in India about that time, or a little afterwards. 

10. You say that 1844 is the date of the earliest official correspondence with 
which you are acquainted ?—Yes. 

11 . Could vou lurnish us with copies of that correspondence if we desire it? 
—Yes. 

12 . Will you describe to the Committee the general principles upon which 
railways in India are constructed and managed?—In a few words I may say 
they are constructed by companies formed in this country, incorporated by Acts 
of Parliament, their acts and proceedings being subject to supervision on the part 
of the Government. 

13 . I presume you are furnished with copies of the contracts under which the 
various lines have been constructed?—l am. 

14 . The period at which the system was established I think you have stated 
was in the year 1844?—That was the time when the first formal application was 
made for a specific scheme. The system under which railways are now managed 
was established when the first contract was made with the first two companies 
who had their schemes sanctioned, and that was in August 1849. 

15 . State the ground upon which it was decided to proceed upon the principle 
so laid down r—The system arose out of circumstances which, perhaps, it will 
be necessary for me to explain at some length ; and if I give a narrative of the 
manner in which the whole thing was arranged, it might be acceptable to the 
Committee. In the end of 1844 application was made by Mr. Stephenson and 
Mr. Chapman, for the support of the East India Company to railway under¬ 
takings in Bengal and Bombay respectively. In May 1845 the Court, in a 
despatch to the Government of India, forwarding these sehemes for the con¬ 
sideration of that authority, expressed their opinion, “ that wherever railroad 
communication could be advantageously introduced and maintained, it was 
eminently deserving of encouragement and co-operation from the Govern¬ 
ment.” An opinion was also expressed in favour of employing British enter¬ 
prise and capital for the purpose of carrying out the works, and that com¬ 
panies should be encouraged in this country to proceed with the undertakings. 
A commission of inquiry, consisting of a civil engineer from this country and two 
engineer officers in India, was appointed to invesiigate and report upon the sub¬ 
ject. Their report was favourable, and the opinion ot Government was that the 
grant of land should be a sufficient inducement for capitalists in this country to 
subscribe the money for the undertakings. This, however, was not the case* It 
was soon found that to enable money to be raised in this country, a guarantee of 
some kind was necessary. There were objections to the principle, and it became 
a question whether the Government itself should not construct the railroad with¬ 
out the intervention of private companies ; so strong, however, was the desire to 
introduce British capital and enterprise into India, that it was decided to 
employ those agencies. It then became necessary to decide upon the terms and 
conditions of the encouragement which should be given. Oil the 4 th November 
1846 the Court of Directors, after fully deliberating on the subject, proposed that a 
guarantee of 4 per cent, per annum should be granted upon 5 , 000 , 000 /. for a period 
of 99 years, and that this capital should be employed upon two sections, one in the 
Upper and one in the Lower Provinces of the Bengal Presidency. It was also 
stipulated, that in consideration of the pecuniary stake which the Government 
would thus have in the undertaking, as well as for the protection of the share¬ 
holders, and the good management of the concerns, a power of supervision and 
control should be vested in the East India Company. Upon these propositions 
being submitted for the approval of the Board of Control in December 1846, 
that authority objected to the terms, and limited the period of the guarantee to 

15 years. 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 3 

15 years. The Court agreed to try the success of the modified terms, and they 
were offered to the railway company. In February 1847, a letter was received 
from the railway company, explaining their objections to certain of the terms, 
and stating that the limitation of time was an insurmountable obstacle to their 
obtaining subscribers. The Court then proposed to the Board to revert to 
their (the Court’s) former proposition, but the Board ( 11 th March) declined. 
On the 17th June 1847, the Court made another attempt to promote the under¬ 
taking, but in consequence of the state of the money market they were now 
obliged to propose a guarantee of 5 per cent. In forwarding this proposition to 
the Board of Control the Court expressed themselves in the following manner. 
“ The more they consider the subject the more decided is their conviction that it 
is incumbent on the authorities invested with the Government of India to adopt 
measures calculated to ensure the early construction of one or more experimental 
lines, fhe Court and the Board have already distinctly recognized the expediency 
of the Government rendering effectual assistance and support to any associations 
of individuals who may be prepared to embark in the undertaking; and the 
principle being admitted, it only remains to be determined how and to what 
extent assistance and support should be afforded by the East India Company, so 
as to ensure the accomplishment of the object in view, the great importance of 
which is not and cannot be questioned. The Court continue to think that the 
first experimental line should, as has already been agreed upon between the 
Court and the Board, be constructed in Bengal; but they see great reason to 
apprehend that the terms proposed to the East Indian Railway Company with 
the modifications and limitations insisted on by the Board, will prove inade¬ 
quate; and that unless those terms be enlarged, the object will fail of accom¬ 
plishment.’’ The Court also expressed their intention of proposing the con¬ 
struction of lines in Madras and Bombay, as soon as the principle of support 
and encouragement had been settled. Having submitted the proposition lo 
the Board of Control, that authority, in reply signified their assent to it, 
attaching to it conditions to which there was no practical objection. Upon 
this being arranged, nogociations with the railway company were again 
commenced, and in September an agreement was concluded with the railway 
company for constructing the two lines of railway above-mentioned, and in¬ 
structions were sent to the Government of India to select the routes, &c. 
Unfortunately in October of that year a money crisis occurred, and the 
railway company were unable to raise enough capital even to pay the de¬ 
posit of 100,000 which it had been settled should be paid into the East India 
Company’s treasury as a guarantee of their stability. After several extensions 
of the time for making the payment, and a reduction of the amount, the rail¬ 
way company failed altogether to raise the stipulated amount, and the plan w'as 
abandoned. In July 1848, another proposition was made by the railway company 
for constructing a line, which should only require a million of capital, and should 
be termed an experimental line. This proposition was acceded to by the Court 
in a letter dated 4 th July 1848, upon condition that a sum of 60,000 l. was forth¬ 
with deposited in the Company’s treasury, and that the railway company adduced 
proof, within four months, of their ability to proceed with this limited under¬ 
taking. The sum was paid on the 19th August. The railway company failed, 
however, to fufil the other conditions, and, on the 24th January 1849, the Court 
resolved to terminate the negociations, intending to propose that the Govern¬ 
ment should take the construction of a railway into its own hands. Many 
members of the Court dissented from this decision, and the Board of Control 
taking the same view as the dissentients, negociations were again opened, and the 
railway company submitted such a modification of the previous terms as in 
their opinion would enable them to raise the capital. The Court and the Board 
subsequently agreed to the terms and conditions which should be granted, and in 
August 1849, the contracts with the East Indian and the Great Indian Peninsula 
Railway Companies, which formed the basis of those for the whole of the pre¬ 
sent undertakings, were formally executed. Instructions were then sent out to 
the Government of India to take immediate steps for fixing the route, providing 
the land, and establishing such measures as should be desirable for securing the 
co-operation of the railway companies and the Government officers in the prompt 
execution of the work. 

16 . Do I understand that the first proposition was made officially by Sir 
Macdonald Stephenson, in the^year 1844? —In December 1844. 

0.61. a 2 • 17 * And 




Mr. j Danvers. 


3 May 1858, 



4 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. J. Danvers. 


3 May 1858. 


17 . And that the contract under which the line was to be completed was not 
signed until August 1849 ?—Exactly. 

18 . Can you furnish the Committee with copies of all the material correspon¬ 
dence that occurred, spreading over that period of four years ? —I think the 
papers which I now hold in my hand contain everything that passed after the 
despatch of the Government of India of 1846 had been received. 

i q. That is the despatch approving the construction of the line ?— fes, recom¬ 
mending the construction of a line. 

20 . Does it include the correspondence between the company and the Court 
of Directors, as well as the correspondence between the Court of Directors 
and the Board of Control?—It does. 

21 . Can you state whether any communications were received from India 
previous to the original proposition to which you have referred, of Sir Macdonald 
Stephenson, whether from Lord William Bentinck or any one else ?—I believe 
Lord William Bentinck did allude to the subject, but I doubt whether he 
proposed any specific scheme. 

22 . Have you ever seen any despatch from Lord William Bentinck on the 
subject?—It is not within my recollection. 

23 . Are you aware whether Lord William Bentinck, on his return to England 
took any prominent part in promoting the construction of railways in India ?— 
I am not aware that he did. 

24 . Will you give the Committee an idea of the main causes of delay in the 
first commencement of railway works in India?—I think the cause of delay in 
commencing arose from differences of opinion between the Court of Directors 
and the Board of Control, upon the terms that should be granted to the railway 
companies, and also in a great measure upon the depressed state of the money 
market in 1847. Those were the chief causes, I think. 

25 . The Great East Indian was the first company formed, I believe; that 
was followed up afterwards by the formation of the Madras and Bombay Com¬ 
pany, state at what period these two companies were formed ?—The East Indian 
Railway Company’s line and the Great Indian Peninsula line (which is the line 
from Bombay) were sanctioned at the same time, and contracts were entered into 
for those two simultaneously. 

26 . What period elapsed between the formation of the Great East Indian 
Company and the two subsequent lines r—The East Indian and Great Indian 
Peninsula were sanctioned in 1849; the Madras line was sanctioned in May 
1852 ; the Scinde Railway was sanctioned in January 1855 ; and the Bombay 
and Baroda in April 1855; the Eastern Bengal, from Calcutta to Dacca, was 
sanctioned in August 1847. There is another scheme now under consideration, 
namely, the Southern of Madras. 

27 . I believe that has been approved by the Government in India, but has 
not yet received the sanction of the Board of Directors ?—It is at this moment 
under consideration. 

28 . You can hereafter furnish the Committee with copies of the contracts 
entered into between the East India Company and the railway companies. Do 
the contracts between the East India Company and the different railway com¬ 
panies materially differ in their terms ?—No. 

29 . Will you state shortly the principles upon which those contracts are 
based ?—The Government engage to grant all the land required for the purpose 
of the railway, free of expense to a railway company, and they also engage to 
guarantee interest; it has generally been, at the rate of 5 per cent, per annum, 
for 99 years upon the capital employed in the undertaking. 

30 . The full rate of 5 per cent, is not guaranteed to all companies, I believe. 
State those on which 5 per cent, is guaranteed, and those on which 4 A per cent, 
is guaranteed ?—Up to this time, the East Indian Railway Company have had 
5 per cent, guaranteed upon all their capital from the commencement; the 
Madras Company had, as respects half a million, a guarantee of 4 $; and 4{- per 
cent, as respects a million. 

31 . Was 4£ guaranteed upon the first million expended by the Madras Com¬ 
pany?— Upon the first half million. 

32 . What was it upon the subsequent half million? — Upon the next capital 
raised by that company it was 5 per cent., and, at a subsequent period to that, 
it was 4f per cent., the rate being dependent on the state of the money market ; 

and 


• • 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 5 

and .when the Madras Company was first established the money market enabled 
the shareholders to subscribe their money at 4 | per cent. 

33 . Are there other lines upon which the lesser guarantee has been given ?— 
Not any. 

34. Do I understand that all the other lines have a guarantee of 5 per cent. ? 
—All ; these are the conditions attached to the guarantee and the granting of 
the land : “The Railway Company have the power of surrendering the works, 
at any time after the line is opened, upon giving six months’ notice to the 
Government, and the East India Company undertake to repay the whole amount 
that has been expended by the Railway Company. The East India Company 
have the power, within six months after the expiration of the 25 or 50 years, 
respectively, of purchasing the railway at the mean market value, in London, of 
the shares during the three previous years. In case the Railway Company fail to 
complete the railroad, or to work it satisfactorily, the Government is entitled to 
take possession, and repay within six months the sums expended. The Railway 
Company repay the guaranteed interests from the profits of the railway. 

35. Do the railways so opened show the mode in which the arrears of the 
guarantee are repaid to the Government?—As soon as the railway is opened 
and is working, all the receipts are paid into the Government treasury until 
the amount advanced for the guarantee has been repaid ; but should the railway 
net receipts exceed the rate of interest, that is, 5 per cent., half the excess of 
that rate is added to the dividend payable to the shareholders, and half is added 
to the deposit in the Government Treasury ; that is to say, supposing the railway 
company is working at a profit of 7 per cent., 6 per cent, is paid to the share¬ 
holders and 1 per cent, is paid to the Government Treasury, so that the share¬ 
holders participate in the profits of the railway. 

36. That one per cent, paid into the Government Treasury, goes to recoup 
the Government ?—Yes; when that guarantee is paid off, the whole goes to the 
shareholders. There is one additional condition which I have not yet mentioned 
to the Committee :—Should the railway work at a loss, that is, not pay its work¬ 
ing expenses, a rateable deduction, corresponding with the amount of expenses 
uncovered, will be made from the dividend. 

37. That is in the event of the railway company not completing its works, or 
mismanaging its works, when completed?—No. When a railway is opened, if 
it is found that its working expenses exceed its profits, the shareholders would 
bear the loss incurred by that deficit; care is taken in the selection of lines to 
prevent such a contingency happening; and it never lias happened. 

38. Have not the proprietors the power of surrendering the works under 
those circumstances; and is not the company bound to take those works at a 
•certain valuation ?—Yes ; I have mentioned that condition. The railway company 
have the power of surrendering the works at any time after the line is open. 

39. Giving a certain notice to the Government ?—Upon giving six months’ 
notice to the Government, or to the East India Company in this country. 

40. Describe the mode of carrying out the supervision provided for in India ? 
—The Government, under the contracts, have supreme control over all the 
proceedings of the railway company. The exercise of that control has somewhat 
varied with the authorities who exercise it; but generally speaking, the Govern¬ 
ment appoint an officer, who is an officer of engineers, to act in communication 
with the railway company’s officer, and to exercise the necessary supervision. 
He is termed the consulting engineer to the Government. 

41. Now describe to the Committee the duties of that officer?—His duties 
are to co-operate with the railway company’s officers, to supervise the expendi¬ 
ture, and to submit such large matters as he may think necessary to the 
Government for its approval. 

42. Are all plans, and surveys, and various sections submitted to that officer 
in the first instance ?—They are. 

43. For his approval ?— For the Government approval; he reports to the 
Government. 

44. He has the power of controlling all matters of expense, and all matters 
connected with the execution of the works over the line?—As representative of 
the Government, he has. 

45. Will you describe the supervision provided for by the Government over 
the Railway Boards in this country?—Under the contracts an officer, the ex 

0 . 61 . A 3 officio 


Mr. J. Danvers . 


3 May 1858. 



6 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. J. Danvers. 


3 May 1858. 


officio director of the Railway Boards is appointed by the East India Company 
to sit at each board. He is invested with certain powers of veto and control; 
but, generally speaking, the principal proceedings of the railway company are 
also submitted to the consideration of the Court of Directors and the Board of 
Control. 

46 . Does the same individual sit as ex officio director at all the Boards r— 
He does. 

47 . Is Sir James Melvill the ex officio director ?—He is. 

a8 . Has he held the office from the commencement ?—From the commence¬ 
ment. 

49 . Describe the extent of authority which he exercises, in his capacity of 
ex officio director, over the proceedings of the Board ?—-At present the extent of 
his authority is to concur with the directors of the railway company, in com¬ 
plying with indents from India, and in entering into contracts with parties in 
this country for materials required to be sent out to India. 

50 . Has he the power of veto over all or any of the proceedings of the Railway 
Boards?—He has the power of veto over all the proceedings, with the exception, 

I think, of their communicating with their law officers. 

51 . Has he the power, provided he acts 011 behalf of the Government, of 
sanctioning in propria persona ?—Only those proceedings which I have men¬ 
tioned, under the arrangements made by the authorities. 

52 . The ex-officio director was appointed at the period at which the construc¬ 
tion of railways first commenced ?—He was. 

53 . Have any alterations since that period been made in the powers of the 
ex-officio director ?—Yes ; at first his powers were confined simply to his moral 
influence, his directions in respect to the conduct of business, and his ability, in 
consequence of his being a director of all the companies, to assimulate their pro¬ 
ceedings, and to require their different arrangements to chime in with one another ; 
subsequently to that, very recently in fact, he has been empowered to comply with 
indents received from India without reference to the India House. 

54 . Will you describe to the Committee, first of all, the meaning of the word 
“ indentsand, secondly, the somewhat lengthy process which an indent under¬ 
goes from the time it is drawn in India to the time of the contract being com¬ 
pleted in this country?—An “ indent” is a requisition for materials required for 
the purpose of the railway in India. 

7 , 5 . Does it apply to persons as well as to things ?—It does ; the requisition is 
made in the first instance by the agent of the railway company in India to the 
Government through the consulting engineer ; the consulting engineer having 
obtained the sanction of the Government to the requisition being made to the 
Board of Directors, it is sent to them ; the directors receive it, and they are 
now empowered with the sanction of the ex-officio director to comply with it at 
once, and also to enter into a contract for the purpose of complying with it, with¬ 
out further reference to the authorities. 

56 . Upon the arrival of that indent in this country, it is laid, I presume, in 
the first instance before the Railway Board :—Before the Railway Board. 

57 . From the Railway Board it is transmitted for the sanction of the Court 
of Directors?—Not now, the ex-officio director has power to sanction it forth¬ 
with. 

58 . When was that permission given to the ex-officio director?—Within the 
last month I should say. 

59 . Previously to that, I understand that the indent had to be referred from 
the Railway Board to the Court of Directors, and from thence to the Board of 
Control, and so back again ?—Yes. 

60 . Describe any instances of delay that have occurred in exercising the super¬ 
vision provided for by the Government of India. Can you state the number of 
communications which have taken place between the railway companies and the 
East India House, so as to give the Committee an idea of the delay that has 
occurred in some instances?—The number of letters that were addressed by the 
Court of Directors of the East India Company to the railway companies in 18 56 
was 614. 

61 . Was that with reference to one particular line?—All the lines ; of all the 
railway companies, there being five in number. In 1857 there were 597 com¬ 
munications from the Court of Directors to the railway companies. 


62 . Can 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 7 

62 . Can you state the number of communications that passed between the 
Court of Directors and the Board of Control during that period ?—Every 
one of those, or almost every one, would go from the Court of Directors to the 
Board of Control; five-sixths of them I should say. 

63 . Has not that given rise to more than one communication on each occa¬ 
sion between the two branches of the Indian Government?—Occasionally; if 
they differed upon any matter, of course several communications passed between 
them. 

64 . Has it never happened that a difference of opinion in any matters of this 
kind has arisen between the Court of Directors and the Board of Control ?—Not 
upon these minute questions, 

65 . You have mentioned six distinct undertakings which have received the 
sanction of the Government?—There are six guaranteed undertakings, and in 
addition to these, there is one which has not received the guarantee, but which 
was started in the hope that the promoters would be able to raise the capital 
without a guarantee. 

66 . I believe that goes by the name of the Mutlah line?—The South-Eastern 
of Bengal from Calcutta to the Mutlah. 

67 . State the number of companies employed to carry out these six different 
undertakings?—There are six companies, but the trunk lines are more than six 
in number; I will describe each company and its object. The East Indian Rail¬ 
way Company engaged to construct a line from Calcutta via Rajmahl, Agra 
and Delhi to Lahore, with a branch from Mirzapoor to Jubbolpoor. The Great 
Indian Peninsula Railway Company undertook to construct a line from Bombay, 
in a north-easterlv direction, to Jubbulpoor, to meet the branch of the East 
India Railway at Mirzapoor, in a south-easterly direction vid Poonah and Shola- 
poor to Bellary, where it joined the Madras line. Thirdly, the Bombay and 
Baroda Railway Company were to construct a line from Bombay vid Surat to 
Baroda and Ahmedabad. The Madras Railway Company were to construct a 
line from Madras to Bellary to join that from Bombay, with a south-west line to 
the opposite coast, at or near to Beypoor. The fifth is the Scinde and Punjaub 
Railway Company, which runs from Kurrachee to Kotree on the Indus, and from 
Moultan to Lahore on the Panjaub. The sixth is the Eastern Bengal from Calcutta 
to Jessore and Dacca. The seventh, which is now under consideration, is the 
Great Southern of India from Negapatam to Trichinopoly, with branches to Salem 
and Trichinopoly. The eighth, which is not guaranteed, is the Calcutta and South 
Eastern from Calcutta to the Mutlah River. 

68 . In regard to the Scinde line, from Kurrachee to some point on the 
Indus, have surveys been made for that line ?—They have. 

6 q. Do you know whether it is a fact that the local Government have 
required 11 distinct surveys to be made for that short line?—They were 
about to have a great number of surveys made, but they were stopped by the 
Court, which insisted upon the line originally laid down being carried out. 
It was fully considered at the time, and the Court, which followed the advice 
of the local Commissioner, Mr. Freer, determined upon adhering to the original 
project, and that is now being carried out. 

7 0. What was the date of the first proposal for constructing that line ?—About 
January 1855. 

71 . When was it sanctioned?—In January 1855. The Court of Directors 
took upon themselves to decide upon that scheme without reference to the local 
Government. 

72 . The local Government of Bombay itself, upon its own authority, required 
that a large number of surveys should be made ?—It did. 

73 . Describe the extent of each of these separate undertakings, and then state 
to the Committee the estimated cost for the completion of each ?—The East 
India Railway Company have a length of line of 1,400 miles in the course of 
construction ; the Great Indian Peninsula above 1,200 miles; the Madras Com¬ 
pany 740 miles ; the Scinde Railway Company 120 miles in Scinde and 250 in 
the Punjaub; the Bombay and Baroda Company 330 miles; and the Eastern of 
Bengal 300 miles. 

74 . Can you hand in a table giving that information a little more in detail? 
Yes. 


0 . 61 . 


A 4 


[The 


Mr. J. Danvera. 


3 May 1858. 



8 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. J. Danven. 

3 May 1858 . [ The Witness handed in a Table , which was as follows :] 


RAILWAY COMPANY 

Total 
. Length 
of 

Lines. 

Experimental 

Line. 

Periods at which it is estimated that the remaining Works on the 
Lines will be completed. 

East Indian : — 

Calcutta to Delhi . . . 
say - 

Mirzapore to Jubbul- 
pore (a) 

(a) Note. —No period 
yet specified for the com¬ 
pletion of the line. 

Miles. 

1,100 

300 

1,400 

Calcutta to 
Burdwan, and 
branch to Ra- 
neegunge, 121 
miles; com¬ 
menced 1850, 
completed 1855. 

Burdwan to 
Rajmahal (130 
miles), 210 

from Calcutta; 
Dec. 1859 * 

Between Raj¬ 
mahal and Al¬ 
lahabad, 440 
miles; 1860. 

Between Al¬ 
lahabad and 
Cawnpore (1st 
section N. W. 
P. division), 
126 miles ; 60 
miles open Oc¬ 
tober 1857; the 
rest in June 
1858.f 

Cawnpore to 
Delhi, 260 mis.; 
October 1858 
(excepting the 
bridge over the 
Jumna). X 

1 

Great Indian Penin¬ 
sula : — 

Bombay to Callian 

Callian to Jubbulpore, 
with branch to Nag- 
pore, viH Oomra- 
muttee - 

Callian to the Krislitna, 
via Poonahand Sho- 
lapore - 

33 

818 

357 

1,208 

Bombay to 
Callian, 33 

miles ; com¬ 
menced 1850, 
completedl854. 

Sections N.E. 
to Wassind (16 
miles) andS.E. 
to Campoolie 
(38 miles) have 
subsequently J 
been opened. 
Now open, 87 
miles. 

Callian to 
Bhosawul, 241 
miles; Octo¬ 
ber 1859. 

N. E. LINE. 

Bhosawul to 
Oomrawuttee, 
125 miles; De¬ 
cember I860. 

Oomrawuttee 
to Nagpore, 
138 miles; Mar. 
1861. 

Bhosawul to 
Jubbulpore; not 
yet estimated, 
probably the 
end of 1861. 

Campoolie to 
Poonah, exclu¬ 
sive of the 
Ghat Incline, 
40 miles; May 
1858. 

1 

j 

S. E. LINE. 

Poonah to 
Sholapore, 165 
miles; 64 miles 
to be open in 
May 1858 ; the 
rest, 1859. 

Sholapore t( 
estimated, prob 
1860. 

) Krishtna; not 
ably the end of 

Madras : 

Madras to Bcypore - 

Madras, via Cuddapah 
and Bellary, to the 
Krishtna, about 

430 

310 

740 

Madras to Ve 
commenced 1851 
Arcot 1856, am 
1857. 

llore, 81 miles; 

J, completed to 

1 to Vellore in 

Vellore to Vaniembaddy, 125 
miles from Madras, April 1858. 
To Beypore on the Western 
coast, March 1859. 

The line to the 
Krishtna not yet 
estimated, pro¬ 
bably to Bellary 
in 1861, and to 
the Krishtna in 
1862. 

Sind and Punjab : — 

Kurrachee to the Indus, 
at or near to Kotree 

Mooltan to Lahore - 

120 

250 

Estimated to be completed by Oc 

tober 1859. 


Bombay, Baroda, and 
Central India : — 

Bombay to Surat, Ba¬ 
roda, and Ahmeda- 
bad ... 

330 

Estimated to be completed from Surat to Baroda in 1858, and to Ahmedabad in 
1859. The section between Bombay and Surat not yet estimated. 

Eastern Bengal:— 

300 

From Calcutta to Dacca, with branch to Jessore. 


* Delays have occurred in this district, in consequence of the Sonthal insurrection, and the subsequent disturbances 
in Bengal. 

f Would have been opened by December 1857, but for delays occasioned by the mutiny. 

X This expectation will hardly be fulfilled now. 


1 


75. Have 













































SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 9 

75 * Have you a return giving the estimated cost of the railways?—The 
estimated cost of the railways of the East India Company is 12 , 731 , 000 /.; 
the estimated cost of the Eastern Bengal, 1,000,000/.; of the Madras, 6,000.000/., 
of the Great Indian Peninsular, 11,000,000/.; the Scinde and Punjaub, 
2 , 500 , 000 /.; the Bombay and Baroda and Central India, 2,000,000/.; making- 
altogether a total of 35 , 231 , 000 /. 

76. '1 hat, I believe, is the Return moved for by Mr. Baillie, and recently 
furnished to Parliament?—It is. 

77. Will you describe the objects which have been principally sought to be 
attained in the construction of these various lines ?—The chief objects are poli¬ 
tical, military, and commercial. 

78. Have they been laid out so as, as far as possible, to combine these three 
objects ?-—Almost invariably. 

79. Has it not been said that the Government have, in more than one instance, 
altered the originally proposed direction of a line of railway ?—They altered 
the original direction of the East India Railway; the original scheme would 
have taken a line direct from Calcutta to Mirzapoor, but the present scheme 
goes by the valley of the Ganges. 

So. Can you state what the object of the Government was in proposing that 
alteration of the line?—The alteration was strongly recommended by Lord 
Dalhousie, on the recommendation of the consulting engineer at that time, 
Colonel Kennedy, the object being to take the line through the most populous 
and most commercial districts; the direct line might have been the best poli¬ 
tical and military line, but the other combined all advantages. 

81. Is it not in contemplation by the Government further to alter the direction 
of that line at its north-western extremity?—I have heard that it is so, but we 
have received no official intimation to that effect at the India House. 

82. Have other and important alterations been suggested by the Government 
on other lines with which you are acquainted ?—I believe that no alteration 
has been suggested on the lines of any other company after they have been once 
determined upon. 

83. Have no alterations been suggested by the Government in the direction 
of the Madras line?—No alteration has been made; there was a difference of 
opinion as to the course it should take, but when once determined upon, no 
alteration was made. 

84. Between whom did that difference of opinion exist r—The local Government 
of Madras and the Government of India did not agree when it was first proposed. 

85. Do you know how far that difference of opinion extended ?—The question 
was agitated by the Madras Railway Company and the Madras Government, 
which thought very strongly upon the subject for some time, and I should say 
the discussion must have been going on for 12 months. 

86. Did the railway company and the Madras Local Government agree versus 
the opinion of the Central Government of Calcutta?—Yes. 

87. And that difference of opinion is now settled, I believe ?—Yes, the question 
is settled, but I believe a difference of opinion still exists; it has been settled 
by the authorities who have the power to fix the line. 

88. For the sake of regularity, I will ask you with whom the selection of 
the line rests?—With the Government, under the contracts. 

89. What are the general objects kept in view by the Government in deciding 
upon the lines ?—I have stated that they are political, commercial, and military. 

90. Can you state whether any one of these three objects has been at any time 
sacrificed to the others?—I think not at any time; I do not think that the 
political object was sacrificed in the case of the East India because it was made 
a little more circuitous. 

91. The Government object, taking it in a military point of view, was combined 
with the commercial advantages derived from taking the lines through a populous 
and thriving district ?—Quite so. 

92. What was the increased difference of distance by the proposed alteration 
of taking the line by the valley of the Ganges ?—Speaking from recollection, I 
should say it was between 100 and 200 miles. 

93. Can you put in copies of any correspondence that took place with regard 
to the alteration of direction in the Madras line ?—I can obtain them and lay 
them before the Committee on a subsequent occasion. 

94. Describe to the Committee the opinion of the Government of India 

0.61. B upon 


Mr. J. Danvers. 


3 May 1858 . 



0 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. J. Danvers, upon the system of supervision pursued in India? — Their opinion lias been 

--— favourable to the system, and Lord Dalhousie’s opinion was very strong, 

3 May 1858. 95. Was the present system of supervision originally framed by Lord 

Dalhousie?—No; the system of supervision was framed in this country when 
the contracts were under discussion. 

96. Did Lord Dalhousie propose any alteration or modification in that 
system of supervision ?—None whatever. 

97. The Railway Bills, I believe, were obtained in 1848 ?—They were. 

98. Did not Mr. Wilson, the Secretary of the Board of Control at that time, 
take a very active part in making 'the requisite arrangements r—It was 
understood that he was actively concerned in them. 

99. In regard to the system of supervision, can you inform the Committee 
what the directions of the Home authorities were upon that subject to the Govern¬ 
ment in India?—They are contained in a despatch, dated November 1849, which 
has been laid before Parliament. 

100. What have been the chief impediments to the progress of this under¬ 
taking in India when once commenced ?—There have been physical impediments, 
no doubt. With regard to the East India railways, some of the works have been 
extremely heavy, unexpectedly so, in the lower part of Bengal. The Santal 
rebellion occurring in the middle of the works, delayed them; and the late 
mutiny, no doubt, has interrupted them in many parts. 

101. Have any engineering difficulties of an unusual character been expe¬ 
rienced by the East India Company ?—The Great Indian Peninsula Railway 
Company have had very heavy engineering obstacles to encounter; such as the 
crossing of the ghauts over the mountains, which run parallel with the coast. 

102. Are there not considerable difficulties on the line now sanctioned from 
Bombay to Surat?—The chief difficulties there are the crossing of the railways, 
for they will be obliged to provide bridges; but Colonel Kennedy has taken the 
subject under consideration, and has suggested a plan which he considers likely 
to remove much difficulty. 

103. Have any other impediments than those you have described, arising' 
from manifestly natural causes, existed to impede the progress of railways in 
India?—I do not think that when once the line has been sanctioned and com¬ 
menced, that there has really been much delay. It is possible that the system 
of supervision may in a certain degree have caused delay, but I do not think 
that practically it has delayed the execution of works in India. 

104. Has much difficulty been experienced in the supply of materials for the 
construction of the line ?—That of course is a difficulty, in consequence of the 
materials having to be sent from this country, but the means of this country are 
sufficient to meet any demand. The difficulty I think the railways have had to 
encounter has been the obtaining of freight for the supply of all those materials ; 
that probably will be an impediment to the very rapid progress of works in 
India. 

105. Is therein your opinion any limit to the supply of railway materials for 
the construction of railways in India ?—I should say there is no limit to the 
supply of materials. 

106. As regards the question of freight?—There is a natural limit, I think, 
to the obtaining of freight; it becomes a question of expense ; of course the 
railway companies might purchase or charter ships to take their materials, but 
when you get beyond the natural limit which the trade of India prescribes, you 
must pay for it, and that would enhance the cost of the lines. 

107. Can you state, of your own knowledge, what the average cost per ton 
has been for the conveyance of permanent way and other materials to India ?— 
I am afraid I am unable to do that at this moment; freights have varied very 
much, and it is a matter entirely in the hands of the railway companies; we have 
no record at the India House of the manner in which they provide shipping, and 
I think I must refer you to the railway companies for information on that point. 

108. Is the sanction of the Board of Control required for the rate of freight 
which the railway companies may be compelled to pay ?—No, that is left to 
the directors of the railway company in connexion with the ex-ojficio director. 

109. Are you aware of any special correspondence that has taken place be¬ 
tween the railway companies and the Court of Directors upon the subject of 
freights?—Yes; there was a representation made by the East India Railway 
Company, when an attempt was made to limit the time within which they should 

construct 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). n 

construct the line from Calcutta to Delhi. 1 think the attempt was made to Jimit 
the time to five or six years, and the company plainly showed that it was impos¬ 
sible, without deranging the whole trade of India, to provide the freight which 
would enable them to supply the materials within that time. 

no. Can you furnish the Committee with a copy of that correspondence?—I 
will obtain it. 

111. I presume the rate of freight materially depends on the chance of 
obtaining a return cargo ?—Exactly. 

112. And consequently, if the home demand for Indian product be lowered, it 
will raise materially the rate of trade ?—Quite so. 

113. When you say there is no difficulty in supplying materials from home, 
can you speak, of your own knowledge, to any difficulty in the supply of mate¬ 
rials in India ?—There is great difficulty in supylying any materials there. 

114. Which materials do you particularly allude to ?—The principal materials 
are iron and wood ; and, although it may seem extraordinary, there is great 
difficulty in supplying even wooden sleepers. 

115. Have the Court of Directors taken any steps to increase the supply of 
iron ?—Yes ; for some years past they have made great efforts, not only to obtain 
information with regard to the developement of the iron-producing districts in 
India, but they have authorised the Governments there to establish works where 
they can find an opportunity of doing so with profit. They have also published 
information in this country to induce people to form themselves into companies 
to work mines, but hitherto without success. A gentleman has recently been 
sent out with a view to establish uorks at Kumoan ; he is accompanied by men 
practically versed in mining operations in this country, as well as smelting 
operations, and great hopes are entertained that he will be able to establish satis¬ 
factory ironworks. 

116. Are there not large fields of ironstone and works even in the course of 
construction in the immediate vicinity of that portion of the line which goes to 
Jubbulpoor?—Mr. Blackwell, one of the gentlemen sent out by the Court of 
Directors to examine the iron districts, visited the Nerbudda Valley, and he has 
given an encouraging report of certain localities which he examined there. The 
Government has been authorised, in consequence of his report, to take measures 
to establish works ; but I believe the great difficulty will be the access to the 
works; and until the railway is advanced, there is little probability of any 
extensive manufacture being carried on. 

117. Are there any smelting works established in that locality at present?— 

I believe for many years the natives have been smelting iron in a rough way, and 
to a small extent. 

118. What is the name of the gentleman who is undertaking the opening out 
of the iron fields at Kumoan ?—Mr. Sowerby. 

119. Iron exists, I believe, in the Madras Presidency likewise?—It does. 

] 20. Have any representations been made to the Board of Control in reference 
to working the iron in that Presidency ?—I am not aware of any recent applica¬ 
tion. 

121. Is iron extensively manufactured in the Presidency of Madras ?—Iron is 
made there, but it is represented that the iron made is too fine for railway pur¬ 
poses, except for small materials; it is said to be too fine, and too expensive for 
rails. 

122. Has not great difficulty been experienced in the obtaining of fuel for 
smelting purposes?—Yes ; that is a great desideratum. 

123. Do you only know of one locality in India in which coal and iron exist 
together ?—At Raneegunge and in the Nerbudda Valley they are found together. 

124. Can you state the quantity of iron which is required for every mile of 
railway ?—As they are now constructed, they are all for single lines, except where 
the traffic is very large, in the neighbourhood of towns. 

] 25. Is it not the case that the railways are all constructed with single lines, but 
that the large works are constructed so as to be ultimately adapted lor double 
lines ?—That is so; all the permanent works, the bridge works, and tunnelling 
are made for double lines; the simple earthworks are for single lines only. 

126. For all the lines of railway, what will be the quantity of the iron required ? 
—It is rather difficult to arrive at a precise and satisfactory conclusion, but I cal¬ 
culate that about 250 tons will be required for every mile ; that is, including 
rails, sidings, stations, an average for the bridges, and for miscellaneous purposes. 
o.6k b 2 That 


Mr. J. Danvers. 
3 May 1858 . 



112 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. J. Danvers. 
3 May 1858. 


That, would make 25,000 tons for every 100 miles, and 1,075,000 tons for the 
works that have been sanctioned, extending over 4,300 miles. 

127. What is the amount of permanent way which has already been sent out 
from this country ?—Up to the year 1854, 77,200 tons had been sent out; in 
the year 1855, 111,642 tons were sent out; and in the year 1857, 120,103 
tons. 

128. Does that include the bridges?—It does; the figures I have given, as to 
the number of tons, appear in an actual return which I have obtained from the 
railway companies. 

129. Does that return include all the manufactured iron shipped for all the 
railways, and for all purposes, including bridges, and so on?—It does. 

130. Has any difficulty been experienced in carrying out these large contracts 
at home ?—I am not aware of any. 

131. Mr. Stephenson.] You say that all the railways are laid down with a single 
line ?—That has been the rule. 

132. Do.you know the average weight per yard of the rails?—The average 
weight would be about 70 lbs.; the lowest, l think, has been 65 lbs., and the 
highest 84 lbs. 

133. For the railway itself, that would give about 100 tons a mile?—About 
125 tons. 

134. How do you make up the difference between your estimate of 250 tons 
and 125 tons ?—I take into consideration the bridge works, the station buildings, 
the sidings and locomotives. 

135. You include the rolling stock ?—The rolling stock. 

136. Chairman.] Your return has reference merely to the freight, has it not? 
—Yes, to all the materials sent out from this country, including everything con¬ 
nected with railways. 

137. Can you state what has been the average cost per mile of those lines 
that are now open ?—I think the East India line, from Calcutta to Raneegunge, 
cost 12,000 l. a mile for the railway itself; the terminal station is a much more 
expensive building than would have been required for that line, but it is intended 
for the whole 1,400 miles. The Great Indian Peninsular to Bombay was also 
an expensive line, as it had to cross over creeks and rivers ; I think that has cost 
about 12,000/. a mile. 

138. Does that include the freight?—Yes. The Madras line has cost under 
6,000 /. per mile, 

139. When the lines have been opened, has any remonstrance been made by 
the Court of Directors against the amount of Government supervision exercised 
on those lines ?—The Court of Directors have frequently endeavoured to press 
upon the Governments the desirableness of not extending their supervision to an 
interference; and with regard to the Madras line, where there was some disposi¬ 
tion shown to interfere with the traffic after the line had been opened, the Court 
of Directors laid down as a principle, that when the line was once opened, the 
Government were not to interfere with the railway company’s officers, beyond 
concurring with them in laying down rules and principles ; they were not to inter¬ 
fere in carrying them out. 

140. I believe the Government have the right of regulating the fares and the 
running of the trains?—I think their power of supervision is unlimited, but it is 
not to be carried out to that extent. 

141. They possess an unlimited power of supervision over the line when it is 
opened ?—They do. 

142. Is it your opinion that the alteration of the route suggested bv the 
Government has materially retarded the progress of the works generally on the 
line?—I think in the case of the Sinde Railway it retarded the commencement 
of that line in consequence of the doubts entertained by the Bombay Govern¬ 
ment as to whether the best line had been selected. 

143. Do you not think that that alteration of route, taking the line of railway 
up the valley of the Ganges, materially retarded the works?—I do not think the 
works had been commenced when the alteration was made. 

144. Mr. Crawford. ] You stated that a negotiation between the railway com¬ 
pany and the East India Company had fallen to the ground in 184 7, in con¬ 
sequence of their inability to find capital ?—Yes. 

145. Do you recollect any discussion about that time between the railway 
company and the East India Company in reference to the question of guarantee? 

— Ido. 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS) 13 

—I do. I recollect that an impression prevailed among the railway companies 
that the guarantee was a guarantee of dividend without any contingency, and 
that five per cent, was guaranteed to the shareholders. 

146. Do you recollect a letter written by Sir James Melvill to the chairman 
and deputy chairman of the East India Company in July 1847, in which it was 
stated, “ That the Court of Directors had resolved to augment the rate of dividend 
to he guaranteed by the East India Company to five per cent.” ?—Yes, there was 
such a letter. 

147. Do you recollect a letter being written to the East India Company by 
Mr. Slaughter, the secretary of the Stock Exchange, in the railway department, 
on the 29th August 1848?—I do. 

148. In which a question was raised as to whether the guarantee referred to 

dividend, or to a mere payment of interest upon the amount of capital?_ 

Yes. 

149. Do you recollect a letter written previously to that, on the 5th October 
1847, by Sir James Melvill to Lord Wharncliffe, in which it was stated that the 
Court would guarantee an interest or dividend for 25 years at the rate of 5 per 
cent. i —There was such a letter. 

150. Did not the Court, after stating that they would guarantee a dividend 
upon certain terms, state that they considered it did not mean dividend, but 
meant interest?—Yes. 

151. And was it in consequence of the effect produced on the public mind, by 
the Court of Directors considering that they had undertaken to guarantee an 
interest and not a dividend, when they had spoken of dividend, that the railway 
company did not succeed in obtaining the money?—I cannot say that that was 
the cause ; I know the result. 

152. Was it not immediately subsequent to that change?—The Company 
had not succeeded in obtaining the money before that; if they understood the 
word “ dividend ” in that sense, they still failed. The Court of Directors never 
intended that the dividend should be 5 per cent, to each shareholder. 

153. Supposing the capital of the railway company to be one million sterling, 
upon the principle of guaranteeing an interest, the guaranteeing party would 
have no more than 50,000 l. to pay, under any circumstances ?—No. 

154. Assuming the rate of interest to be 5 per cent.?—Yes. 

155. Under a guarantee of dividend, the guaranteeing party would have to 
pay 5 per cent, under anv circumstances, notwithstanding there might be a con¬ 
siderable loss in the working of the line?—Just so. 

156. Do you recollect whether, in the earlier communications that passed 
between the founders of the East India Railway Company and the East India 
Company, the question of dividend had not been expressly pressed by them ?—I 
do not recollect it before it was raised at the time just referred to. 

1.57. Do you remember a paper being sent in bv the Directors of the East 
India Railway Company proposing to undertake provisionally the execution of 
a line of railway from Delhi to Calcutta upon certain terms?—Yes. 

158. Do you recollect whether there was a clause in that proposal that the 
East India Company should guarantee a dividend equal to 5 percent. ?—Yes, still 
it was misunderstood ; there was not a mutual understanding of the term. 

159. You say that the whole negotiation proceeded upon a misunderstanding 
of the word “ dividend ” ?—I apprehend so. 

160. Do you remember how that difficulty was got over eventually'?—Power 
was given to the railway company to surrender the works at any time after the 
line had been opened for six months, so that supposing the railway failed as a 
commercial undertaking, the shareholders would not suffer. 

161. They would have the power in their hands of returning the undertaking 
to the Government?—Receiving back what they had expended on the line. 

162. That is one of the bases of the contract?—It is. 

163. With regard to the powers of the ex-officio director at the Railway Boards, 
do you recollect whether there is any express understanding in the first instance 
between the railway companies and the authorities as to the powers that the 
ex-officio director should exercise?—lean answer only for the Court of Directors, 
and I think their understanding was that he should act for them at the Boards 
of the railway company', and that he should be vested with certain powers of 
control, so as to release them from minute supervision. 

164. If he gave his consent at the railway Boards to their proceedings, it 

0.61. b 3 was 


Mr. J. Darners , 
3 May 1858. 




MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. J. Danvers, was intended that the Boards should be at liberty to proceed to act upon their 

-resolution, without the necessity of a confirmation of those proceedings by the 

3 May 1858. East India Company?—It was certainly their intention, and their expressed 
intention. . 

165. Do you recollect how it was that the ex-officio director had not that 
power, but was obliged to send in for the confirmation of the Court of Directors 
the proceedings of each Board ?—It was in consequence of the Board of Control 
and the Court of Directors taking different views of his functions ; one thought 
that he should have that power, and the other thought that he should not. 

166. Did that arise upon the appointment of Sir James Melvill?—It did. 

167. Was any officer proposed by the Board of Control to represent the 
governing authorities at the railway Boards in opposition to Sir James Melvill ? 
—I never recollect hearing any name proposed. 

168. Was it, in your opinion, jealousy on the part of the Board of Control, 
inasmuch as if Sir James Melvill had authority to give his consent at the 
railway Boards, they would not have the power of exercising a supervision in 
matters brought before the railway Boards?—I cannot say that it was jealousy ; 
the Board differed from the Court as to the functions of the officer ; one thought 
that he ought to have the power of exercising supervision at the Boards of 
railway companies, and the other, that he ought not, but that he was simply 
there to expedite business. 

! 69. The practical result of the view taken by the Board of Control has been 
this, that the ex-officio director has sat at the railway Board without authority, 
by expressing his concurrence in their acts, to give effect to their proceedings 
without reference to the governing authorities?—He has, with the exception of. 
what I have explained ; that is, sanctioning indents from India, and entering into 
contracts. 

170. Is it the practice of the railway Boards to meet once a week ?—It is. 

171. And Sir James Melvill attends those meetings as the ex-officio director, 
representing the East India Company ?—He does. 

172. The minutes of those Boards are sent to the East India Company?— 
They are. 

173. Would the East India Company consider the railway Boards justified 
in acting upon any matter involving principles before those minutes had received 
the confirmation of the East India Company ?—I hardly think that a confirmation 
of the minutes has the practical effect of sanctioning the proceedings, because it 
is the habit of the directors to submit, by separate letter, any proposition that 
they may desire to have sanctioned by the authorities. 

174. What do you do with those minutes when you receive them at the India 
House ?—They are submitted to the Court of Directors, and sent down after¬ 
wards to the Board of Control. 

175. Do they pass before one of the committees ?—Yes, the Finance Com¬ 
mittee. 

176. You take them into your consideration, and report them to the Court of 
Directors ?—They look at the minutes of the company merely as a narrative of 
their proceedings, and not as asking for sanction to any proceeding, because that 
is done by a separate letter. 

177. The East India Company afterwards send a copy of the minute to the 
Board of Control ?—Yes. 

178. In wliat terms?—A letter to the railway company, acknowledging the 
receipt of the minutes, goes up to the Board of Control. The letter is sent back, 
either approved or altered. 

179. We are speaking of the minutes?—The minutes are not altered, either 
by the Court or by the Board; but any alteration can be introduced into the 
letter which acknowedges the minutes. The Board of Control has the final 
voice. 

180. Where a letter is sent by the railway companies to the East India Com¬ 
pany, requesting their sanction for any particular act, such as the purchase of any 
considerable amount of property, the fixing of a salary, or other matter of prin¬ 
ciple, what does the East India Company do with such a proposition ?—The 
propositions are submitted to a committee, which sends it, with a report, to the 
Court of Directors; and the Court of Directors, after approving it, send it to 
the Board of Control, for its confirmation. When it is confirmed, the letter 
goes to the railway company, with the necessary authority. 


181. So 



15 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

181. So that if it were desired by a railway company to appoint a new officer 
to whom a salary was to be allotted in India, or if they desire to buy 10,000 
tons ol rails, they have to get in the first instance, the examination and approval 
of the Railway Board, of the ex-officio director at the Railway Board, of the 
committee ot the Court of Directors, then of the Court of Directors itself, and 
the Board of Control, before the act desired to be done can be carried into 
execution ?—It would be so as respects the appointment of an officer, and the 
payment of a salary, but it is not so now as regards the supply of materials. 

182. In the first instance it was so?—Until very recently. 

183. One of the consequences of Lord Ellenborough’s appointment has been 
to remove some of the difficulties, as T understand?—He sanctioned the proposal. 

184. Had the proposition been made before he took office?—It was sent in 
before the change of Government. 

185. Sir James Melvill, I understand, has the power at the present moment 
of sanctioning the purchase by a railway company of all goods which have been 
indented for from India, with the' consent of the Government in India ?—Yes. 

186. Has he power to give his consent to the Railway Boards for purchases to 
be effected without reference to the East India Company?—Yes; if the indent 
has been sanctioned by the local Governments. 

187. In all other matters he has no power of his own to consent at the Board 
to any act they propose to do ?—No. 

188. Has the propriety of allowing Sir James Melvill larger powers than 
he now possesses ever been discussed at the India House?—When he was first 
appointed to the office, the Court of Directors were anxious that he should have 
larger powers; but the difficulty in carrying out their view was, the objection 
of the Board of Control to relinquish any part of their control. 

189. What year was that ?—The latter part of 1849. 

190. Did the Board of Control make any objection to the conferring of 
enlarged powers upon Sir James Melvill, with reference to his sanctioning the 
purchasing of goods, and so forth?—No; that sanction was given with their 
concurrence. 

191. In point of fact, this delay which is found to exist in the operations of 
the Railway Boards is to be laid at the door of the Board of Control, so far as 
Sir James Melvill’s independent power of action is concerned?—The Board 
certainly objected to his having anything like plenipotentiary powers. 

192. And it overruled the Court of Directors, who wished to give him larger 
powers ?—It did. 

193. Has the necessity of referring these questions by the Company to the 
Board of Control been productive of delay ?—I really do not think that the 
construction of the works in India has been much retarded by the process; it 
is found to be inconvenient and vexatious, but I do not think that the mode of 
exercising the control has retarded the construction of the railways. 

194. Supposing a large quantity of material to be required for use on one 
of the lines, what would be the course taken to procure that supply, beginning 
from the want being felt and expressed by the engineer of the railway com¬ 
pany ?—The engineer of the district would express his want to the agent of the 
company; he would forward the engineer’s requisition, with his observations 
thereon, to the consulting engineer of the Government; he would obtain the 
assent of the Government of India or the local Government, for the transmis¬ 
sion of the requisition to the Board of Directors in London ; they would consider 
it, and with concurrence of the ex-officio Director, the Directors would imme¬ 
diately act upon it. 

195. You receive your despatches at the India House under the signature of 
the secretary to the Government of India in the department of Public Works ?— 
We receive them under the signature of the Governor-general and the members 
in Council. 

196. Do you know whether they are prepared by the consulting engineer of 
the railway company, or by the secretary to the department of Public Works ?— 
Up to this time those offices have been held by the same person ; the consulting 
engineer to the Government of India was the secretary in the Public Works 
department. 

197. Is he so now ?—No, the office has been divided. 

198. Who is the consulting engineer to the Government of Bengal?—Major 
Goodwin. 

0.61. b 4 199. Who 


Mr. J. Danvers. 
3 May 1858 . 


Mr. -J. Danvers. 


3 May 1858. 


16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

199. Who is secretary to the department of Public Works? — I believe 
Captain Yule. 

200. In the event of a railway company in India requiring a locomotive, the 
engineer has to communicate, in the first instance, with the agent to the railway 
company, the agent to the railway company has to make his wants known to 
the consulting engineer, and the consulting engineer has to communicate with 
the secretary to the Government of the department of Public Works, and then 
a letter is written, under the signature of the Governor-general, to the Court of 
Directors, and until very recently it had to go through the ordeal I have just 
mentioned to you ?—It had. 

201. It had to go through niue or ten separate examinations and separate 
decisions ?—It had ; but yet I think delay lias been prevented by the railway 

•officers taking time by the forelock, and calculating the time at which they 
would require those things. 

202. You have stated that the objects of the seven or eight lines of railway 
that were sanctioned in India were of a political, military, and commercial 
character ?—Yes. 

203. And that the plan originally proposed by Sir Macdonald Stephenson in 
a straight direction was varied to the route of the valley of the Ganges by the 
decision of Lord Dalhousie, upon the recommendation of Colonel Kennedy ?— 
It was. 

204. Is that letter amongst the correspondence which has been handed 
in ?—I think it is amongst the papers that have been printed for Parliament. 

205. I11 what year was it written ?—it would be about August 1851 . This 
is an extract from the despatch of the Court of Directors, affirming the decision 
of Lord Dalhousie. 

“ The grounds upon which he (the consulting engineer) founds his preference 
are: the smaller engineering difficulties which the Ganges line presents: the 
greater commercial advantages which it possesses, and the larger amount of 
profits which it offers. 

“ He represents the enormous amount of the existing traffic on the Ganges 
as well as the painful labour, cost, and uncertainty which attend it, and states- 
that the country through which the direct line would pass, and which he describes 
as 4 The Desert Hill District,’ would suffer no inconvenience from the with¬ 
drawal of its traffic to the Ganges route, by which the produce of the upper 
district must necessarily pass. 

44 Our Governor-general has expressed his concurrence in these views, and 
in his minutes of the 11th April last says, * I have never doubted from the first 
that the proper course for any trunk railway from Calcutta to the provinces 
would be by what is termed the Ganges line.” That was before any contract 
had been made, and therefore the alteration in the route did not delay the 
execution of the works. 

206. Admitting that the decision was wise and proper, in the interest of the 
public, and in the interest of the railway company, and confining your attention 
to the result of the change as regards the question of delay, which is what we 
are directed to inquire into here, do you not think that if the line had been 
carried on straight from Raneegung to Mirzapoor, the line might have been 
completed sooner ?—1 think it is possible, but it must be borne in mind that 
there was a serious obstacle in the River Soane, which would have to be crossed 
midway between Raneegunge and Mirzapoor, as well as a range of lofty hills. 

207. Looking at the inquiry which this Committee is charged to make, that 
is, into the cause of the delay, do you not think that if the line had been made 
from Raneegunge to Mirzapoor, it would have been available for military pur¬ 
poses during the past year?—I do not feel competent to answer that, which is 
more of an engineering question ; it. is possible ; but it must be recollected that 
there were very difficult works on the direct line, over hills and so forth. 

208. As to the question of progress in India, do you not think that inasmuch 
as all the expenditure is made under the power and immediate sanction of the 
Government authorities, the amount of expenditure is not a fair indication of 
the extent of progress made?—I do not think the progress of the works can be 
judged of by the lines opened, nor by the expenditure in India. 

209. In point of fact, the East India Railway Company, having only 123 
miles of railway open at this moment to public traffic, might yet have a great 
number of miles just on the point of being opened ?—Just so. 

210. Have 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS), 17 

21 o. Have you any knowledge as to the number of miles they are likely soon to 
open ? I only know that between Cawnpore and Allahabad it is expected to 
be opened in a few months, and 60 miles of it are now at work; no doubt 
that would have been opened much sooner if it had not been for the recent 
unfortunate occurrences. 

211. You have concluded a contract for the construction of a line from 
Miizapoor to Jubbulpoor ?—We have. 

212. How long is that ?—Three hundred miles. 

213. I believe it is not very difficult of execution?—Not very difficult, but 
there will be some difficulties. 

2t4. iYIr. Cumming Bruce.] You have informed us of the nature of the con¬ 
ditions of the contracts by which the Government in India have the power of 
assuming the conduct of the railways, and you say one of the conditions is, if they 
think that the work is not carried on satisfactorily by the railway company?— Y'es. 

215. Who decides whether it is satisfactory or not?—The Government, I 
believe, has the power of deciding. 

216. It leaves the Government the power, at any time, of taking to the rail¬ 
way ?—By showing sufficient cause. 

217. Ir rests with the Government to decide whether the work is carried on 
satisfactorily or not?—Yes, it must be carried on to the satisfaction of the 
Government. 

218. Mr. Campbell.'] Has the Government itself ever originated any line of 
railway, or have all the existing lines emanated with the public?—The Govern¬ 
ment have, in some instances, originated a line. 

219. Which line ?—Where a certain means of communication has been under 
consideration, the officer surveying and the Government which has reported 
upon the surveys, have suspended their decision as to whether it should be a 
canal or a road, thinking that the authorities at home would sanction a railway ; 
that was the case with the Scinde Railway, and the Eastern Bengal Railway. 
They did not sanction an expense which would have been incurred for a road or 
canal, preferring a railway. 

220. None of the great trunk lines existing now, originated with the Govern¬ 
ment ?—Lord Dalhousie laid down the whole system of railways ; the subject was 
referred to him, and in a despatch he lays down the whole system, which has 
since been adopted. 

221. He was notin India in 1844, was he ?—The scheme was not settled then. 

222. Chairman .] Do you know any ins ance in which the Governor-general on 
his own authority, authorised a railway company to proceed in the construction 
of a line before it had received the sanction of the home Government ?—Lord 
Dalhousie did, but 1 believe it was under a mistake ; he authorised the Baroda 
Company, but, as was afterwards explained, by mistake. 

223. Mr. Campbell.'] Has the Government here, in all cases, adopted the lines 
approved and recommended by the local Government?—I think they have 
hitherto invariably. 

224. In all cases ?— In all cases, I think, hitherto. 

225. YVhat deviations from originally projected lines have been made, in cases 
where they have been guaranteed by the Government?—No deviation has been 
made after a line has been settled, and after a contract has been made. 

226. Political and military considerations would, of course, be an element in 
the judgment formed by the Government, but with the promoters the profit 
likely to result from a purely commercial line, would be the principal element? 
— I do not think that the Government has ever selected a line for merely 
political purposes. 

227. In the case of the Eastern Bengal line, the plan originally proposed by 
the company showed estimated profits to the amount of 10 or 12 per cent., but 
by the modification introduced by Government for military and political purposes 
those profits were reduced to something like 5 per cent.?—The alteration was 
made entirely upon the recommendation of the railway company’s engineer, 
and with the wish of the railway company ; the Government adopted the opinion 
of the railway company’s engineer. 

228. When divergencies occur in the route of a line of railway for political 
and military purposes, Government has benefited while the shareholders have 
suffered ?—I do not think that has ever been the case. 

229. Does not the interference by Government impede progress ?—I think that 

0.61. C supervision 


Mr. J. Danvers* 


3 May 1858 . 



i8 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. J. Danvers, supervision must, to a certain extent, impede the transaction of business, but I 

—- do not think that it has prevented the prosecution of the works with vigour; it is 

3 May 1858* a necessity, in fact, of the guarantee. 

230. Are Government stores and troops carried at a lower rate than the 
general public ?—They are carried under the contract at the lowest rate. 

231. Whatever class they travel by ?—Yes; it is a provision of the contract 
“ that the said railway company will at all times during the said determinable 
term, convey on the said railway the Government mails and post-bags, and the 
guards and "other servants of the post-office in charge thereof free of charge, and 
when they are on duty all officers and persons in the administration of the post- 
office also free of charge ; and will also convey on the said railway when they 
are on duty the troops, both horse and foot, as well those of Her Majesty as those 
of the East India Company, and all other persons to whom the provisions of the 
Mutiny Acts for the time being in force for the Queen’s forces, and for the East 
India Company’s forces respectively, shall be applicable ; and all artisans on the 
business of the East India Company, the officers and persons in a similar 
station of life to be entitled to travel in first-class carriages at secoud-class fares, 
and the troops and European artisans in second-class carriages at the lowest 
fares, and all other persons at the lowest fares/’ 

232. What steps have Government taken with reference to the supply of 
timber ?—They have authorised commissions and inquiries to be made, and 
considerable efforts have been made, but hitherto it has been found cheaper to 
obtain sleepers from this country. 

233. Mr. H. A. Bruce. ] You said that before the East India Railway Com¬ 
pany proceeded with the execution of their lines of railway they were incorpo¬ 
rated by Act of Parliament?—Yes. 

234. They had to proceed in precisely the same way as an English railway 
company is bound to do ?—I meant to say that the common practice has been 
for the railway company to be incorporated. In some instances they have not 
obtained their Act; in those cases they waited until they saw a fair prospect 
of the scheme being sanctioned. 

235. They must apply before they proceed with their line ?—-In some instances 
the promoters have applied, and they have waited until the report of the Govern¬ 
ment of India had been received before they took further steps to form the com¬ 
pany. The sanction of the East India Company was not given until the company 
was incorporated by Act of Parliament. 

236. You have stated that, the consulting engineer gives his opinion as to a new 
line of railway being carried in the first instance, and afterwards as to the quantity 
of materials used upon the line?—The materials being all sent from this country 
are passed by the consulting engineer to the railway company. 

237. Do I understand that the consulting engineer in India has nothing to do 
with the choice of materials?—Any indent that passes through his hands is subject 
to his observations. 

238. The consulting engineer would have to decide as to the advisability of 
confirming the request made by the engineer of the railway?—He offers no 
opinion upon the materials, but he gives his opinion as to whether the application 
shall be made. 

239. He does not enter into the question whether a rail shall weigh 65 lbs. or 
70 lbs.?—No, that is settled in this country. 

240. By whom is it settled on the part of the Indian Company in this country? 
—By the ex-officio director who exercises his control at the Boards of the railway 
companies, and who is guided by the opinion of the consulting engineer. 

241. Have you ever known any difference of opinion between the railway 
companies and the East India Company, as to the quality or character of the 
rails, or as to the sort of engines to be used on the line ?—No. 

242. Have you never known delays arise from discussions of this sort?—*No. 

243. Have all the delays with which you are acquainted, setting aside the 
questions upon the guarantee, arisen from proposed deviations from the original 
line, or from a dispute as between the railway companies and the East India 
Company, as to what would be the best line for the general interests of India?— 
Delays occurred, no doubt, in the commencement of the Madras Trunk Line, 
and also of the Scinde line, in consequence of the difference of opinion regarding 
the route. 

244. Can you suggest any other causes of delay than those which arose from the 

selection 


SELECT COMMITTEE OX EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). ,g 

selection of the route ?—Delays, of course, arose from the natural impediments of 
the country, and from the necessity of sending materials from this country. 

^45- Apart from the physical impediments of the country, have you known 
no delays arise from the objections taken by the East India Company to the 
course proposed by the engineer, or by the authorities of the railway companies? 
—On the Madras line there was an instance, in which a delay of some few months 
was occasioned in consequence of the consulting engineer" of the Government 
objecting to the original line being carried out. 

246. Has the East India Company ever objected to the kind of permanent 
way or bridge recommended by the engineer of any railway company ?—Yes ; 

I think in one instance the plan of permanent way recommended by the 
engineer of one of the companies was objected to because it was only experi¬ 
mental, and it was thought inexpedient to attempt any experiments in India. 
It was Adams* Girder Rail, and it was found that it had not been adopted on 
any of the lines in this country. 

247. Up to this time have the railway companies, so far as you are aware, 
kept within their estimated costs ?—I think the East India Company has a little 
exceeded the estimate ; I think the estimate was about 10,000/. a mile, and I 
believe it has cost more ; but it is difficult to judge of that line, because it has 
been made double, and it was also necessary to provide a terminal station for 
the whole 1,400 miles, although the part opened is only 100 miles. 

248. Mr. T. G. Baring.'] I suppose you have paid considerable attention to 
the progress of all these lines of railway r —Yes. 

249. Putting aside any delay which may have occurred before the actual line 
had been determined upon, in each case do you consider that the progress of 
the works, after they have been once decided upon, has been satisfactory ?— 

I do, speaking generally. 

250. Would you say that any delay has occurred since the selection of the 
lines ?—I do not think, after a line has been once sanctioned, that its construc¬ 
tion has been impeded beyond what one would expect, recollecting that the 
materials come from this country, and that the physical difficulties of the country 
are sometimes considerable. 

251. Do you consider that the necessity which there was, in consequence of the 
guarantee, for the Government supervising the expenditure, has been productive 
of delay ?—I think not, in the course of constructing a line. 

252. When you say, “not in the course of construction,” at what time do you 
think it would occasion delay?—I think there has been delay in commencing 
the works in the first instance, but that was not in consequence of the guarantee 
system being adopted. I do not think that that system need necessarily entail 
delay by any means. 

253. Mr. Cheetham .] Was there not some delay in obtaining the guarantee 
of the Easl India Company for these several lines ?—There was a good deal of 
discussion in the first instance about the system of introducing railways into 
India altogether. 

254. You have been asked by an Honourable Member about the estimated 
return of one of the lines having been reduced from 12 to 5 or 7 per cent., in 
consequence of a change in its course ?—I have no knowledge of the calculation 
that the Honourable Member mentions. My answer is, that the alteration was 
made entirely in consequence of the recommendation of the Railway Company’s 
engineer, and at the 'Railway Company’s wish. 

255. It was not the fault of the East India Company ?—No. 

25b. Speaking of this particular line, can you tell me whether its object is 
more especially political and military or commercial ?—I should say all three 
combined ; I do not think that one is sacrificed to the other. 

257. I see in clause 10 that there is a provision made for the ex-officio director 
on behalf of the company ; lias any material difference of opinion arisen between 
that gentleman and other directors of the company upon any points which 
would lead to delay?—I think none whatever; I think they have always acted 
with the greatest cordiality, and in unison of feeling. 

258. Has there been any material delay after the sanction of the line by the 
company, and before the line was commenced in India ?—There has been delay 
in the case of the Scinde Railway. After the scheme was sanctioned, there was 
a difference of opinion in India as to which route it should take, and in conse¬ 
quence of that it was necessary to have further surveys. 

0.61. c 2 259. That 


Mr. J. Danvers. 


3 May 1858 . 



20 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. J. Danxers. 259. Th.it is not so with the other lines, so far as you know ?—No. 

_ 260. Are you aware what the results have been since the opening of the 

3 May 1858. various lines, and whether any demand has been made upon the guarantee of 
the company or otherwise ?—Not at all; the lines have, from the commencement, 
more than paid their working expenses, and after a short time those lines that 
have been opened have worked at a profit; in two instances, the East Indian 
and the Great Indian Peninsula, their profits have exceeded the rate of guaran¬ 
teed interest. 

261. Is it. your opinion that, in any application now made to the East Indian 
Company for a guarantee, they ought not to feel as timid as to the results as they 
formerly were ?—I think that any well selected line is sure to pay, and I do not 
think that either the shareholders or the Government authorities need apprehend 
loss. 

262. If the Board of Control are under the impression that the workings of 
the lines has not resulted in a profit, are they mistaken ?—I do not think that they 
can be under that impression, for they have the whole results before them. 

263. Mr. C. Bruce .] A question was asked you just now which seemed to 
intimate an opinion that Government attached more importance to one object 
than another. Do you consider that the commercial element has been as much 
considered as any other ?—I think so. 

264. You think that no prominence has been given to the political and 
military over the commercial element?—No ; in one or two cases a railway has 
been sanctioned for purely commercial purposes. 

26.5. Mr. Cheetham.] What railway do you speak of?—Of course political 
considerations must be involved in any trunk line of communication in a country 
like India; but I think that in selecting the Madras railway, from Madras 
south-west to the coast, the real object was to develope the resources of that 
district, and to make a commercial line. 

266. Mr. C. Bruce.] Was not the deviation from the original plan, which in¬ 
volved an extension of about 300 miles, mainly influenced by a desire to promote 
the internal commerce of the country?—Yes. 

267. Mr. Cheetham.] Is your reply to my question, in relerence to the whole 
of the lines, this : that assuming that there is an impression amongst commercial 
classes that these lines were devised mainiy for military purposes, and not for 
commercial purposes, such an impression is erroneous?—It is. The line to Nag- 
pore has been sanctioned soley tor the purpose of opening up the commercial 
districts. 

268. Does not that line pass through a large cotton field ?—It does. 

269. The same remark would not apply to the line going northward to 
Calcutta ?—That is a political line as well as a commercial line. 

270. You would not say that the commercial element there is as important to 
the Government as the two others?—Government are of course very much inter¬ 
ested in the facilities for conveying troops and so on, but the great object in 
selecting it was to make it a commercial line. 

271. Mr. Crawford.] Could you select any line more commercial in its cha¬ 
racter than the one in question from Calcutta?—Certainly not. 

272. Chairman.] You stated just now that, in your opinion, delays occurred 
in the arrangement of the schemes at home, but that there was no delay in the 
construction of the lines. I wish to know whether the elaborate description you 
have given us of the stages through which the indent passes does not itself de¬ 
velope a most productive source of delay?—Not so much as might be expected, 
because the officers understanding the system that is pursued, have allowed a 
sufficient time to elapse. 

273. Are you not aware that very great delays have occurred in consequence 
of the Government interference with the mode of providing materials for the 
construction of the lines in India?—I am not aware of it. 

274. There appears to exist in your mind an idea, I dare say well founded, that 
the facilities of sending out materials to India may be limited by the demands of 
trade for Indian products?—Yes. 

275. I presume an important item in the calculation of the freight is the ex¬ 
pectation of a return cargo r—Yes. 

276. Supposing that the demands of this country for Indian productions are 
limited, that would necessarily limit the number of ships that would come 
charged with these materials ?—Exactly. 


277. And 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). ai 

277. And it would involve you at home in the necessity of either purchasing 
or chartering ships to convey materials?—Yes. 

278. Which would of course depend upon the demand for shipping at the 
moment ?—Yes. 

279. Practically you think that there is a limit to the amount of permanent 
way and materials for railway construction to be sent out to India ?—I do. 

280. I should like to know whether it has actually yet occurred within your 
experience?—I cannot say that it has; but it would have occurred if the East 
India Railway Company had not taken the proper precaution of declining to 
enter into an engagement which would have involved them in this difficulty ; 
they were called upon to make a line within a time, which would have been im¬ 
possible unless they had bought or chartered vessels. 

281. Would these considerations materially interfere with the power of any 
railway company completing a line within a certain time?—Yes, I should say 
they would. 

282. That is your decided opinion?—Yes. In connection with this I may 
perhaps mention the amount of materials sent out to India within the last three 
years ; in the year 1855 enough was sent out to construct 446 miles of railway ; 
in 1856 enough was sent out to construct 507 miles; and, in 1857, enough was 
sent out to construct 492 miles. 

283. I presume that all the vessels so engaged had return cargoes? — I 
presume so. 

284. Mr. Crawford .] Practically speaking, the construction of railways in 
India has not been retarded by the want of permanent wav ?—No. 

28.5. Has it not been the object with the Government of India to insure a per¬ 
fect uniformity, as far as possible, in the construction of all the railways ?—Yes. 

28b. Including uniformity of gauge ?—Yes. 

287. And uniformity in the construction of the rolling stock?—Yes. 

288. So that there may be no difficulty in the communication between the 
several lines?—Yes. 

289. Were not these points referred to a committee of engineers in this 
country ?—Yes ; every precaution was taken to prevent a difference of gauge, or 
any other inconvenience. 

290. Do you recollect any instance in which the recorded proceedings of the 
East India Company have been returned, with the dissent of the ex-officio 
director? —Not one. 

2 Qi. Mr. H. A. Bruce.] Have you found any rise in the price of freight in 
consequence of sending out materials to India ?—No, I think no attempt has been 
made to force freights. 

292. Has there been any difficulty in obtaining shipping for sending out the 
whole amount of rails required for the construction of railways?—No, I do not 
think the companies have ever been obliged to charter or to purchase ships. 

293. T hey have never been driven to any peculiar mode of obtaining freight? 
—No.’ 

294. Mr. Hodgson.] Has there not been a considerable rise in freight for dead 
weight ?—Not that I am aware of. 

295. Chairman.] In regard to the profits realised upon lines already opened, 
can you state whether those profits have, on most occasions, come up to the 
original estimate of what they would be?—The estimates have been so various by 
those who were anxious to promote the scheme, they have been perhaps rather 
exaggerated; and many have, on the other hand, thought that the railways would 
not pay their own expenses; but I think they have exceeded expectations. 

296. Is it your opinion that no line of railway now open gives an adequate 
idea of what the ultimate amount of profit may be expected to be ?—Yes, I 
think it docs not. 

297. Do you form that opinion from the fact that none of the experimental 
lines actually run into what may be termed producing districts?—I do. 

298. With the exception of Kaneegung, which is a mineral producing dis¬ 
trict?_None of them, I think, show the commercial capabilities of the work. 

29Q. Mr. Hodgson.] I believe there is no line open entirely ?—There is not. 

300. So that it is impossible to form an opinion of what the traffic by them 

will be?—Just so. . 

301. Chairman .] Speaking generally, I understand you are clear in your opinion 
that the amount of profit realised has fully answered fair expectations?—Yes. 

O.61. c 3 302. With 


Mr. J. Danvers. 
3 May 1858 . 



22 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. J. Danvers. 302. With respect to the Bombay and Baroda Line, I believe that a very great 

—-- delav took place in the sanction given to that portion of the line from Bombay 

3 May 1858. to Surat ?—Yes. 

303. Is it not the fact that three years before it obtained the sanction of the 
Home Government that portion of the line had been approved by the local 
Government?—I think it must have been nearly three years, but the delay arose 
from two causes; a railway company in the first instance proposed to commence 
from Surat and not from Bombay; when the scheme came to be considered by 
the Government of India, Lord Dalhousie recommended that it should commence 
from Bombay; when it came home there were differences of opinion as to 
whether a better route might not be selected between Surat and Bombay, and 
the authorities decided, in the first instance, that the railway company should 
commence its works from Surat; the railway company made repeated representa¬ 
tions in favour of that extended project, and the Government of Bombay, to whom 
it was referred, likewise recommended it, and at last it was sanctioned, and is 
now in the course of construction. 

304. Do I understand you to say that the project of extending the original 
line from Surat to Bombay was initiated by Lord Dalhousie, and not by the 
Company ?—I think when it was placed before Lord Dalhousie they had altered 
it, and proposed that it should commence from Bombay, and his opinion was in 
favour of it. 

305. Can you state whether there was not a considerable opposition offered by 
the Board of Control to the construction of that line from Bombay to Sural? 
—The Board of Control certainly objected to the extension. 

306. Do you know the grounds of that objection ?—That the route was not 
fixed upon for connecting it with the line then in the course of construction 
from Bombay ; there was a great objection to two lines going into the Island of 
Bombay, and it was suggested that this line from Surat might join the other 
line higher up by the side of the Ghauts. 

307. Was the sanction to that part of the }ine obtained eventually by the 
Company’s showing that, whereas they were conducting a line into a profitable 
district, and taking the goods of that district to a place where there was no 
port, it was essential that they should have the power of shipping their goods 
to a port ?—Yes. 

308. That was the reason that induced the Government to sanction the scheme ? 
—Yes. 

309. Did not those reasons exist as strongly when the scheme was first intro¬ 
duced as they did three years afterwards r —Yes, of course, they did ; but there 
was the question then raised as to whether it could not be made to join the 
existing line by an easier and cheaper route than that by the coast. 

310. They may have contemplated a branch line from Surat to join the Great 
Indian Peninsular ?—Yes. 

311. I believe that scheme was under discussion for some time ?—Yes. 

312. Were there great difficulties in carrying the line over this country?— 
It was so objectionable that the Government immediately reported against it. 

313. Mr. Cranford.'] So far as you are aware, have any of the engineering 
officers employed in supervising the construction of railways in India had any 
experience in civil engineering, and particularly in the construction of railways ? 
—I believe they have had great experience in civil engineering and in construct¬ 
ing works similar to railways ; for instance, bridges over which trunk roads are 
taken, canals, and in fact every work connected with civil engineering. 

314. Are you aware whether any of them have, during their residence in 
England, devoted their time to the construction of railways? — Yes. 

315. Some of them who have returned to India?—Some of them. 

316. In point of fact, then, they are not altogether devoid of what you would 
call railway experience r—Certainly not; and the Indian experience which they 
have acquired has been found of great service. 

317. Chairman.] Have you heard that some difficulties arose in India, in con¬ 
sequence of the natives not understanding thoroughly what the nature of a con¬ 
tract is, and what its duties are ?—I have not heard it. 

318. Has much difficulty, to your knowledge, been experienced in making 
contracts with native contractors?—Not with native contractors. There have 
been great difficulties with English contractors. In one or two cases, in which 
natives have had contracts, they have been successful. 

319. Have 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 23 

319* Have you heard of no instance in which a native contractor, finding” that 
he had not the money, or from some other reason, has thrown up the contract, 
unable to perform it ?—I do not recollect the case of a native contractor doing 
so. I know of several instances in which that has been done by English 
contractors. 

320. Is it not the fact that nearly all the contractors in the Great East India 
Line have thrown up their contracts?—Yes, with but two exceptions, I believe. 

321. Were any of those contractors native contractors ?—I believe not. 


Jovis, 6° die Mail , 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT: 


The Hon. H. G. Liddell. 
Mr. A. H. Baring. 

Mr. T. G. Baring. 

Mr. C. Bruce. 

Mr. H. A. Bruce. 

Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Cheetham. 


Mr. Crawford. 

Sir J. Elphinstone. 
Mr. G. Glyn. 

Mr. K. Hodgson. 
Mr. H. D. Seymour. 
Mr. Stephenson. 
Colonel Sykes. 


THE HON. H. G. LIDDELL, in the Chair. 


Mr. David bines JVoad, called in; and Examined. 

322. Chairman .] WILL you describe to the Committee the position that you 
occupy in the East India Railway Company?—I am Secretary of the East Indian 
Railway Company, and have been so ever since its formation. 

323. Will you state the date of the formation of the East India Railway Com¬ 
pany ?—It was formed in June 1845. 

324. Describe shortly its origin and objects?—The objects of the founders of 
the Company were the carrying out what they conceived to be a great national 
undertaking. When Mr. Stephenson returner! to England in 1849, placed 
himself in communication with the late Sir George Larpent, Mr. B. Colvin, and 
Mr. Charles Fresh field, and others; and those gentlemen having carefully 
examined the immense mass of information upon the subject which he had 
brought home, became gradually impressed with the conviction which Mr. 
Stephenson had long entertained, that railways in India had become a great 
political, social, and commercial necessity, and finding that there was no disposi¬ 
tion on the part of the Government in India to undertake their introduction, and 
that even it the deposition had existed there was no effective machinery for the 
purpose, they began to consider how the object could be best attained. The 
question was very completely ventilated, and a great many schemes were suggested 
and discussed, and it was ultimately considered that the best means for carrying 
out the object would be the establishment of a joint stock association to act in 
close identity with the Government of India. The founders had no sooner 
come to this conclusion than they sought an interview with the Chairs of the 
East India Company, and they explained that they were prepared to enter upon 
the undertaking, provided they were assured of the cordial co-operation of 
the Government, and provided the Government were prepared to afford them 
a guaranteed return upon the outlay of the capital necessary for the purpose. 
The question was never viewed as a commercial speculation, nor was the 
proposed company ever considered in the light of a mere railway company. 
At that interview with the Chairs, which involved the requirement on the part 
of the railway company of such a rate of dividend upon the capital as the East 
India Company themselves would have had to pay had they raised the capital 
for the like purpose, they received such assurances as led them to have little doubt 
of a satisfactory conclusion being arrived at, and they immediately proceeded to 
form the company in June 1845. 

325. Those communications, which you have just described, were the first 
communications which the company, with which you are connected, had with the 
Court of Directors?—Yes. 

326. What was the amount of capital ?—The company has power to raise by 
shares 20 millions, and it has power to borrow an additional three millions. 

0.6J. C4 327. What 


Mr. J. Danvers 
3 May 1858 . 


Mr. D. L A oad. 
6 May 1858 . 









24 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. D. I. Noad. 


G May 1858. 


327. What are the Acts of Parliament under which the Great East Indian 
Railway Company is constituted?—The company was formed in June 1845 
under a deed of settlement registered in accordance with the provisions of w hat is 
called the Joint-Stock Companies Registration Act, the 7 & 8 Viet. c. 110, and 
on the 1st of August 1849, they obtained an Act of incorporation, which limited 
the liability of the shareholders to the amount of their subscriptions, and which 
enacted the original deed of settlement as the constitution of the company. 

328. Are you under the provisions of the Companies Clauses Act ?—Only to 
this extent, that we have the benefit of one particular clause in that Act, and that 
is the clause referring to the enforcement of the payment of calls, the forfeiture of 
shares, and the consolidation of shares into stock. We are subject to no other 
clause in that Act. 

329. How much capital has been already subscribed ?—£. 8,700,000. 

330. Will you give a succinct account to the Committee of the correspondence 
that took place between your company and the Court from June 1845 up to 
February 1849 ?—I am afraid I shall have to trouble the Committee with a great 
many dates; for the dates form an important element in the consideration of the 
question. The company announced its formation in a letter to the Court in June 
1845 ; on th e 20th July Mr Simms, the Government engineer, appointed, under 
a minute of the Court of the 7th May, went to India; and, by the same ship, we 
despatched Sir Macdonald Stephenson, then Mr. Stephenson, and a staff of 
engineers to assist him in the necessary preliminary investigations. In Novem¬ 
ber 1845 we heard from Mr. Stephenson that Mr. Simms had quite satisfied 
himself of the practicability of constructing railways, and also had decided in 
favour of the line which this company had proposed should, in the first instance, 
be commenced upon. In November 1845 accordingly, we wrote to the Court to 
say that we were anxious to discuss the terms upon which the work was to be 
carried on; and, in December 1845, we received a reply from the Court de¬ 
clining to enter into any correspondence pending the receipt of a report on 
the subject from the Government of India, which had not then come to hand. 
Mr. Stephenson returned to England in June 1846. We immediately com¬ 
municated the circumstance to the Court, and again expressed our anxiety to enter 
upon a discussion of the terms upon which the undertaking should be carried out. 
On the 5th July 1846, having heard nothing from the Court, we proposed distinct 
terms upon which we should be prepared to undertake the work, but between 
that date and February 1847, we received no communication of any kind whatever 
from the Court. In February 1847, a paper was handed to the chairman of the 
railway company, which contained a series of terms and conditions upon which 
the Court were prepared to afford encouragement to companies established for 
the purpose of making railways in India, and in that paper they proposed to 
give a guarantee of four per cent, upon three millions of money to be expended 
upon two sections of the great line to Delhi, which guarantee was to last for a 
period of 15 years. On the 3d February we wrote to the Court pointing out the 
altogether insufficient nature of these terms, and in the following March the Court 
declined to make any alteration. This letter from the Court led to our having 
one or more personal interviews with the Chairs of the East India Company, 
and at length on the 5th July 1847, they consented to raise the rate of guaran¬ 
teed interest from four to five per cent., and we then suggested that they should 
also extend the duration of the guarantee to 25 years. 

331. Was the guarantee that they then offered in the shape of interest or 
dividend?—Guaranteed dividends, as we understood. We suggested that they 
should extend the duration of the guarantee to 25 years, w hich they consented to 
do on the condition that we deposited, within three months from that date, the 
sum of 100,000/. as an earnest of our bond jidts. 

332. In the early part of your evidence you said that a period of several months 
elapsed between July 1846 and February 1847, during which time you received 
no answer to your communications to the Court. Did you call the attention of 
the Court to your letter during that period ?—Not by my w ritten communications. 
When we got this last concession, which was the increasing the duration of the 
guarantee to 25 years, we concluded that the Court had assented to the 
terms we had always stated to be necessary to our object, and that they 
had agreed to give us that which we had asked for from the beginning, 
a guaranteed return upon our capital; and in that belief we sent out in August 
1847 a very large staff of engineers, so that we might avail ourselves of^the 
ensuing cold season to commence operations. We immediately made a call upon 

our 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


2 5 


our shareholders, with a view to provide the deposit. Unfortunately, however, Mr.2>. I. Noad. 

no sooner was the cail made than the commercial crisis of 1847 intervened, the - 

intensity of which, particularly as it affected Indian interests, many of the Members 6 Ma y 1858. 
of the Committee will recollect, and we were under the necessity of applying to 
the Court for an extension of the period within which to make the deposit. We 
applied, I think, to extend the time to the 31st March, which the Court agreed 
to. We then took the most active measures possible, by forfeiting the shares, and 
by an attempt to sell those that were forfeited, in order to complete the deposit by 
the stipulated time, and we had every prospect of success, when, on the 24th 
February 1848, the French Revolution broke out, which for the moment com¬ 
pletely paralysed all commercial operations. Under these circumstances we found 
it necessary to apply to the Court for a further extension of time for making the 
deposit, which we did the 1.5th March, and we received a letter on the 21st March 
from the Court, positively declining to make any concession whatever. We 
remonstrated very strongly in a letter dated 23d March, and the Court agreed, in 
a letter dated 30th March, to extend the period for making the deposit until the 
1st May. We called our shareholders together on the 18th April, made a 
call on the 22d April, and wrote a letter to the Court, intimating our expectation 
that we should be able to complete the deposit on the 1st May, or within a few 
days afterwards, when to our surprise, on the 1st May, we received a letter, dated 
29th April, stating that unless the deposit were punctually paid on that, the 1st 
day of May, the whole negotiation would be abandoned, and the agreement with 
the Company considered null and void. 

333 - Were any grounds stated in that letter by the Court for making that 
statement ?—None whatever; it was a dry reply, to the effect that as we had failed 
in our undertaking they withdrew from any negotiation with us. We remonstrated 
very strongly in a second letter on the 2Qth May, and we then asked that they 
should accord terms more consistent with the state of the times, and we proposed to 
limit the undertaking to the construction of one section of the line. The Court 
again positively refused, in a letter dated 3d June, to make any concession. This 
reply raised some very grave doubts in the minds of the members of the railway 
board as to the bona jides of the East India Company in their intention to assist 
the undertaking at all, and for the moment we did not take any further steps to 
make the deposit. Although the commercial crisis of 1847 an( l the French 
Revolution of 1848 were, no doubt, the immediate active causes of our failure 
to make the deposit, yet the real cause of failure, and the real cause of a great 
many of the subsequent embarrassments, are to be traced to the loss of time 
between 184.5, when the East India Company sent out their commission, and for 
which, in my opinion, there was not the slightest necessity, and February 1847. 

In 1844 and 1845, there is no doubt whatever that we could have raised all the 
capital that we required for this railway at 3^ per cent., and there is equally no 
doubt that in July 1846, when we proposed distinct terms, we could have raised 
all the capital we required at 5 per cent., but the Court deferred their decision, as 
I have already stated, until February 1847, ar >d it was i° February 1847 that the 
first indication of anything like an uncomfortable feeling in the money market 
first made its appearance ; after the receipt of the letter of the 3d June we came 
to the conclusion that the Board had positively determined to afford no assistance 
in helping us out of the dilemma in which they had placed us, and we heard also 
that the policy of the Court had undergone a change as to the agency to be 
employed in the construction of the railway, and that they contemplated the con¬ 
struction themselves ; we thought that we ought not to stand in the way of 
a great public work, and it was on the 17th June, I think, that we offered 
to hand over the whole of our plans, surveys, and sections, and to place the 
services of our staff at the disposal of the East India Company. This letter 
ended in our being asked to an interview with the Chairs of the East India 
Company, at which it was explained that there wais no change whatever in the 
policy of the Court, and they expressed their readiness to receive another propo¬ 
sition from the railway company. We lost no time in making that proposition; 
and on the 4th July we suggested that the first work should be limited to a line 
which should cost about a million sterling. This the Court agreed to upon the 
4th or 5th July, upon condition that we made a deposit of 60,000/. forthwith, 
and that we withdrew a Bill which we had introduced into Parliament, which had 
passed the House of Commons, and had been read a second time in the House 
of Lords. I need scarcely say that we were very much astonished at this latter 
0.61. D demand, 



26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. D. I. Noad. demand, because the whole of the provisions of the Bill had been previously 

- approved by the solicitors of the East India Company, and we therefore rernon- 

6 May 1885. strated strongly against the withdrawal of that Bill. The Court persisted, 
we again remonstrated, but it was insisted upon, and the Bill was withdrawn 
accordingly. We went on with our operations however, and were making a 
fair progress, when, on the 1st September 1848, in a correspondence with third 
parties quite unconnected with railway companies, the Court repudiated our 
view of the meaning of the term “ guaranteed dividend.’* The effect of that 
may be well imagined. The public had been induced to subscribe their capital 
upon what was now stated to be a false representation, and I need scarcely say 
that every one connected with Indian railways felt the matter very acutely. 
We laid the whole of the correspondence before the public. The public 
undoubtedly took our view of the question, and a great deal of pressure being 
brought to bear, botli upon the East India Company and upon the Government, 
it was suggested to us, about the beginning of 1849, whether some terms could 
not be devised by which the differences which had arisen between the two bodies 
might be reconciled. 

334. The objection, raised by the Court, resulted in fact in a compromise?— 
Exactly. 

335. You say that was about the commencement of the year 1849?—Yes. 

336. Describe to the Committee the principle of that compromise?—The first 
terms agreed upon by the Court in our view of the case, were an absolute 
guaranteed dividend of 5 per cent, for a period of 25 years. 

337. Have you with you any correspondence bearing upon this subject? — 
There was no correspondence of importance between July 1848, and the beginning 
of 1849 ’ vv hat passed was principally in verbal communications. 

338. Conducted in interviews with the Chairs?—Yes, and with the authorities 
of the Board of Control. The terms upon which we had been proceeding, as we 
understood them, were an absolute guaranteed dividend of 5 per cent, for 25 
years; and under these terms, if we failed in the performance of our obligations, 

I think the East India Company would have been entitled to have possessed them¬ 
selves of all that we had done without payment; I think, in fact, we should have 
sacrificed the whole of the capital which we had laid out. 

339. What was the amount that you had laid out at that time?—It was nothino* 
very serious at that moment, perhaps 100,000/., but the power of forfeiture 
would, of course, have extended over the entire duration of the lease of 99 years. 
It was explained to us that the East India Compay never did, in fact, mean to 
guarantee the dividend, but that they only intended to guarantee interest upon 
the aggregate amount of capital paid into their treasury, and expended under their 
sanction, and that it was never suggested to them that they should guarantee to 
each individual shareholder, interest or dividend upon the amount of his subscrip¬ 
tion ; we were told, in other words, in fact, that it was useless to prolong the 
discussion upon the question, that the East India Company were not likely to give 
way, but that they were ready to come to such terms as would meet the difficulty. 
Considering that under the first terms we should lose our capital if we failed in 
our undertaking, that appeared to us to be a starting point upon which we could 
make a compromise, and we then said that we were prepared to accept their view 
of the case, provided, in the event of any failure on our part, from one circum¬ 
stance or another, we were, in all events and under all circumstances, guaranteed 
the return of our capital; that in fact was the real principle of the compromise 
between us, and instead of having a guarantee of 5 per cent, dividend for 
25 years, we accepted the guaranteed interest for 99 years, with the provision that 
at all times and under all circumstances our capital should be guaranteed to us. 

340. Mr. Danby Seymour.] Five per cent, upon the capital paid up?—Yes, 
the rate of guaranteed interest was to be 5 per cent. 

341. Chairman.'] Did these proceedings continue between February 1840 and 
August of the same year ?—In February 1 849, I think, Mr. James Wilson", the 
then secretary of the Board of Control, first suggested something like the 
terms upon which we proceeded, and we were occupied the whole of that interval 
between February and August 1849 m bringing those terms into the form of a 
contract. 

342. When was that contract signed ?—That contract was signed, I think on 
the 19th of August 1849. 


343. Are 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 27 

343. Are you aware whether there was any particular pressure brought to 
bear upon the Board of Control at that period, in order to facilitate and expedite 
those proceedings?—Yes, the press took up the matter very warmly indeed; and 
in February 1849, a ve, 7 important deputation from Manchester waited upon the 
President of the Board of Control, and pressed the subject very closely upon his 
attention ; and I have no doubt that the terms which were accorded subsequently 
were the result, in a great measure, of that deputation. 

344. I think the then secretary of the Board of Control, Mr. James Wilson, 
took a very active part, and a very useful part, in arranging the various difficulties 
which existed ?—Very much so; in fact, I think the railway interests are mainly 
indebted to Mr. James Wilson for the terms upon which their present contracts 
are based. 

345. In order to complete this first part of our inquiry, will you state what 
proceedings took place after the signing of the contract, which I think was about 
August »849, up to the date of commencing the works, which I believe took 
place at the end of 1 850 ?—The contract was no sooner signed, than the Board 
entered into a communication with Mr. Thomas Jackson, the contractor, with a 
view to obtain from him a tender for the construction of the entire works. Mr. 
Jackson furnished us with a tender immediately. We submitted it to the Court 
of Directors, with a strong expression of opinion that it should be accepted, but 
we received no reply upon the subject until the 31st of October 1849. 

346. When did you submit it ?—In August 1849 ; of course, we lost those three 
months ; and as the organisation of the entire staff depends entirely upon whether 
you are going to construct works yourself, or whether you are going to employ 
contractors to construct them, one being actual operation, and the other mere 
supervision, the railway company couid do nothing whatever until the question of 
Mr. Jackson’s tender was decided. We were then in correspondence with the 
Court, from November until March 1850, as to the salaries which wc were to 
pay to the engineers, the extent of the staff, &c.; and these matters were finally 
settled about March. We despatched our staff’ to India about the 20th of March. 

347. Mr. H. A. Bruce!] What was the length of line included in that arrange¬ 
ment r—About 120 miles, from Calcutta to Raneegunge. 

348. Mr. Crawford .] You have referred to the preliminary expenses that were 
incurred ; what was the whole amount expended ?—We had spent about 
80,000 1 . 

349. What Avas the sum allowed by the East India Company to the railway 
company out of that expenditure, to form a part of the guaranteed capital of the 
company ?—£. 33,600. 

350. The difference between those two sums has been so far lost to the rail¬ 
way company ?—It was not lost to the existing corporation, but it was lost to the 
parties who subscribed to it, but did not continue in the undertaking. 

351. In what manner was that 80,000 1 . expended ?—It was chiefly in surveys, 
and a considerable portion of it in compromising with the engineering staff we 
had sent out in August 1847; which was a precaution we took when we found 
ourselves in difficulty about money matters. 

352. How many times had you sent an engineering staff to India, in the 
expectation that you would be in a position to commence your works, before you 
actually sent out a staff’ under the contract with the East India Company ?— 
Once. 

353. The expenditure of sending out the staff, and the expense of compromising 
with them after you had engaged them, formed a part of the expenditure for 
which you have received no return in the guaranteed capital ?—That is so. I 
should perhaps mention, that the principle upon which the company was formed 
was this : we took a very small deposit from the public, and the understanding 
with them Avas that if, when we came to a contract, they chose to go forward with 
the works they might, but if they chose to retire from the undertaking they would 
do so, forfeiting the js. per share which they had paid, and it was the 5 s. per 
share so forfeited which enabled us to pay the difference between the sums spent 
and the sums admitted. 

354. I suppose considerable expenses were incurred with reference to the Bill 
w hich passed the House of Commons, but which was withdrawn from the House of 
Lords at the dictation of the East India Company ?—Yes; I am not prepared to 
state the precise figures. 

355. That forms a part of the preliminary expenditure of the company?—Yes. 

0.61. d 2 356. I think 


Mr. D. 1 . Noacf a 
6 May 1858. 



28 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. D. I. Noaa. 356. I think that Mr. Jackson, the gentleman with whom you stated the com¬ 
pany was in treaty for the purpose of executing the experimental line under the 
6 May 1858. contract, had previously gone to India, and had made himself acquainted, either 
by himself or by his agents, with the facts upon which his contract would have been 
based ?- One of his brothers had been to India with that view. 

357. As 1 understand, that was the reason the railway company communicated 
with Mr. Jackson in preference to any other individual ?—Yes. 

358. Because they supposed that he possessed tolerable information upon the 
facts they were proposing to deal with ?—Yes ; and so far as they could ascertain, 
he was the only English contractor disposed to enter upon railway works in India. 

359. The East India Company, in your opinion, prevented the railway company 
from entering into that contract with Mr. Jackson ?—Yes. 

360. Are you aware of any ground which the East India Company had for 
putting their veto upon that contract ?—I am not. 

361. Do you recollect the price at which Mr. Jackson would iiave undertaken 
that contract?—It was between 8,000/. and 9,000/. per mile. 

362. Do you think, as regards the question of delay in the early construction 
of the works, that the process of construction was impeded by that contract not 
being entered into ?—I do not think that if Mr. Jackson’s tender had been accepted 
the works which were contemplated in that tender would have been completed very 
much sooner than they really were. 

363. Have you any correspondence that will throw light upon that subject ?— 
I shall be happy to provide the Committee with it, but I have not got it with me. 
If I remember rightly, the letter declining the contract was in very general terms; 
that the Court considered it on the whole undesirable to accept the tender. 

364. The railway company was then left to prosecute its works in India upon 
such information as might be obtained as to the best mode of proceeding ?— 
Yes. 

365. Colonel Sykes.] In the first place, what was the current rate of interest of 
money at the date of the first proposal, and at the date of the first guarantee ?— 
I should rather reserve myself upon these points, but I think the current rate of 
interest was about 3^ percent, in 1844 and 1845. 

366. What rate of interest was guaranteed to the company in 1844 and 1845? 
—Nothing in 1844 and 1845. 

367. Ultimately ?—The guaranteed rate of interest offered in the first instance 
was 4 per cent. 

368. What was the amount of your guarantee ?—Five per cent. 

369. That guarantee having been given, you were called upon, by a certain 
day, to make a deposit of money according to your agreement ?—Yes. 

370. Did you do so?—No. 

371. The delay, therefore, was not with the East India Company, but with you, 
in having failed to make the deposit ?—I think our failure to make the deposit 
arose from the withholding of terms by the East India Company until February 
1847. 

372. The failure of the completion of the agreement to make the required 
deposit was in 1847 ; then in March 1848 you made a second application for a 
delay of the completion of your agreement to make the deposit ?—Yes. 

373. Therefore in both cases, as I understand, it was a failure in the fulfilment 
of your agreement to complete the deposit, and not any act of the East India 
Company which occasioned the delay ?—I do not admit that. 

374. Upon what grounds did your company suppose that the Court ever con¬ 
templated taking into their own hands the construction of railways in India?_ 

It was mere rumour or hearsay at the time. 

375. You have no foundation for it, in fact ?—No; nothing but very general 
rumour. 

376. You speak of a Bill having passed the House of Commons, and being read 
a second time in the House of Lords; what were the provisions of that Bill ?—So 
far as I remember, it was simply a Bill to incorporate the company, and to confer 
limited liability, an immunity from risk enjoyed by all shareholders in other railway 
companies; and also to reduce the nominal value of the shares from 50 /. to 20 ?. 
I think those were the main provisions of that Bill. 

377 * Did you ever ask the East India Company for a guarantee to individuals 
of the interest upon their subscriptions?—We never made the proposition in those 

terras. 


29 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

terms, but what we always asked and sought for, was a guaranteed return upon 
our outlay, whatever it was; and moreover in some other correspondence we applied 
to the East India Company to know in what form they would hand us over the 
amount of the guaranteed dividend, when they told us they would pass it to our 
credit in the ordinary form, but that they could not themselves undertake the dis¬ 
tribution of the amount of it amongst the respective shareholders, which is con¬ 
clusive to my mind that we had not made ourselves misunderstood as to the meaning 
of the terms “guaranteed dividend.” 

378. Practically, has there not been a payment of 5 per cent, upon the sub¬ 
scribed capital ?—Yes, and I think the terms under which we are now acting 
practically give us what we originally asked for, and that they are much better 
terms. 

379. Previous to your expending 80,000 l. in preliminary expenses, had you 
obtained the sanction of the Court of Directors?—No. 

380. It was a loss, you say, of 5 s. per share only?—Yes. 

381. And out of that 5 s , per share belonging to persons who could not pay up 
their subscription, you were to pay the loss, which otherwise would have fallen on 
the company ?—Yes. 

382. That is, the difference between 33,000 l. and 80,000 l. ?—Yes. 

383. Mr. Campbell .] With reference to the construction of railways, was it not 
a matter of public notoriety in the City, assuming a credible form, that the East India 
Company were about to undertake the construction of railways in India ?—It 
reached us as a rumour at the time. 

384. You have alluded to the commercial crisis in 1847, and the French Revo¬ 
lution of 1848, as being impediments in your way?—Yes. 

385. Would that commercial panic of 1847, or the French Revolution of 
February 1848, have exercised any considerable influence upon your proceeding 
but for the previous delay of the East India Company in fixing the terms ?—I 
should say, certainly not. 

38b. You also alluded to the fact of your being able, at a period anterior to the 
fixing of the contracts with you, to have raised the money at 3! per cent, if the 
East India Company had guaranteed the dividend as you suggested ; if that had 
been done, do you believe that you could have obtained the money?—In 1844 
and 1845, I have no doubt of it. 

387. Then, of course, a vast saving would have been effected ?—Yes. 

388. Did that arise from the delay on the part of the East India Company?— 
I think so. 

389. Mr. C. Bruce.] I think you stated that to the delay which occurred 
between your original proposal to the Company and the agreement now existing, 
you attribute very much the difficulty which you afterwards experienced in raising- 
money ?—I trace the whole of it to that circumstance. 

390. Do you consider it reasonable that the East India Company should have 
at once accepted your proposal without making those inquiries in India which 
were necessary to enable them to judge whether it was objectionable or not?— 
Yes; I think that we were in a position, and that we did in fact, in 1844 and 
1845, submit to the Court as much information as they subsequently acquired by 
their own Commission, that Commission, in truth, merely confirming the infor¬ 
mation which Mr. Stephenson had previously obtained. 

391. You think that the East India Company, acting as a governing body, and 
a responsible body, would have been justified in receiving private information 
tendered to them by parties proposing such a scheme ?—I think they would, 
because I do not think they could have investigated that information without 
being satisfied of the accuracy of it. 

392. Mr. Cheetham.~\ I did not hear when you first applied to the Court of 
Directors?—At the end of 1844. 

393. When did you commence your survey in India ?—About September 
1845. 

394. At the time you made your first application to the Court you had taken 
no surveys ?—We had made a great many preliminary observations, and had sent 
agents through the whole of the country, and had collected information, I think, 
from every officer of any station in the service of the East India Company upon 
every question which could affect the subject. 

395. Was the company in a position to come to any decision upon vour pro¬ 
position without the completion of your surveys ?—Just as much as they were in 

0.61. d 3 February 


Mr. D. I. Noad. 
6 May 1858. 



MINUTES OE EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. D, I. Noad t February 1847, when the surveys upon which the line is being constructed were 
--- not made. 

6 May 185b. 396. What time elapsed between your first application to the Court and their 

consent to your scheme ?—We received no assent to our scheme until February 
1847. 

397. Then the East India Company bad been occupied in 1845 and 1846 in 
their inquiries in India as to this proposal of yours ?—Yes. 

398. Two years had been occupied by them? —Yes. 

399. Do you consider that so much time was necessary ?—I consider it was 
quite unnecessary. 

400. To that delay on their part you attribute, as I understand, the difficulties 
that beset you afterwards as regards pecuniary matters r—I do. 

401. Mr. A. H. Baring.] How long did the Government of India take to consider 
the practicability of making these railways in India?—Mr. Simms, the Govern¬ 
ment engineer, went out in July 184.5 j our engineer, Mr. Stephenson, returned in 
June 184b, and we then understood that the Government of India had come to 
a decision upon the subject; but I am not acquainted with the fact whether they 
had or not. All I know is, that our proposition of July 1846 received no atten¬ 
tion until February 1847. 

402. Mr. T. G. Baring.] You said, I think, that you thought the Ea^t India 
Company had sufficient information given to them by the railway company in 
1844, without referring to India ?- Yes. 

403. Can you tell me what specific information you refer to?—The informa¬ 
tion 1 refer to specifically was a very large mass of statistics obtained by Sir 
Macdonald Stephenson—then Mr. Stephenson—prior to his returning to England 
in 1 844, and which was made public ; I cannot say whether his statistics were 
published officially or not, but they were ultimately handed to the Court of 
Directors; they were public documents. 

404. Would they be sent by the Chairman of the East India Railway Company, 
and would they be papers containing the prospectus of the railway company ?— 
It was information obtained quite in anticipation of the publication of the 
prospectus. 

405. Do you think that the East India Company could have investigated the 
accuracy of these reports in England r—I think there was really very little 
need of investigation as to the practicability of making railways in India, I do 
not think that any one acquainted at all with India could have doubted the prac¬ 
ticability of constructing railways there. That was one of the points of refer¬ 
ence. The only point upon which I think there was any necessity for informa¬ 
tion was as to the best line to be commenced upon ; that, probably, it was 
desirable to consult the Government of India about; but that need not have 
stopped our making our financial arrangements. I11 February 1847, the direc¬ 
tion of the line was an open question, but we nevertheless proceeded to make 
our financial arrangements in concert with the East India Company. 

406. The whole subject of the communications between you and the East 
India Company was with respect to a guarantee ?—That was the main point. 

407. To enable you to raise your money bv borrowing the amount?—Yes ; I 
should say that the Company was never formed with the intention of makiug 
any particular railway or railways in India, but it was formed with the object of 
making any or all the railways which the interest of India might require to be 
made. 

408. Where does the guarantee come from ?- -The guarantee is supposed to 
come out of the funds of the East India Company; but I presume, whilst we 
have a large amount of our capital lying idle in their hands, it is, in fact, paid out 
of that capital. I am only giving you my supposition. I presume that, havim* 
the money, they would in all probability make use of it. 

409. Speaking generally, is not the guarantee a charge upon the revenues of 
India ?—Yes. 

410. I suppose you would consider it the duty of the East India Company 
to inquire whether that charge would be properly made before they agreed to 
give such a guarantee ?—Certainly, if they conceived there could be a doubt 
about the desirability of making railways in India, they would be right in making 
inquiries, but I do not think thai it was at all necessary to refer the matter to India! 

411. Have you seen a despatch written by the East India Company to the 
Governor-General in 1845, an4 which has been laid before Parliament?—I 

think 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIA (RAILWAYS). 31 

think probably that is the minute to which I have been referring throughout, in Mr. D. I. Noad. 

which they raise certain questions for the decision and advice of the Government-* 

of India. 6 May 1858. 

412. You disagree, so far as I understand, with what the Court of Directors 
state in that despatch r —I think the whole question might have been settled with¬ 
out any sucii despatch. 

413. \ ou think that the information they had was sufficient to enable them to 
form an opinion, and that the direction of the line might be settled after the 
financial arrangements had been made ?—Yes. 

414. Mr. H. A. Bruce.] ^.ou stated that the object of the East India Com¬ 
pany was to make all railways that might be required in India ?—Yes. 

41,5. Was that the scheme first proposed to the East India Company?—Yes. 

416. Did the guarantee you asked for extend to all possible lines that you 
might make, or to one specific line of railway ?—The guarantee we asked for was 
understood at the time to extend merely to the work we proposed to commence 
upon. 

417. Was that work defined during the negociations which took place be¬ 
tween 1844 afi d 1847?—In 1844 and 1845 we suggested that the best line to 
commence upon would be a line from Calcutta to Delhi and Lahore, with a 
branch to Rajamahal, ou the Ganges ; and the result of the commission sent out 
by the East India Company was, to confirm the view which had been taken in 
that respect, limiting the first operations to the construction of two sections of 
that line, one in the Lower and one in the Upper Provinces. 

418. The guarantee they gave you referred simply to the capital which was to 
be laid out in the formation of these two selected lines ?—These two selected 
sections. 

419. And had no reference to the whole line which now goes under the name 
of the East India Railway ?—At that time it was confined to the two sections. 

420. Now, can you say whether the causes of your inability to make the 
deposits on both occasions w r ere well known to the Court of Directors ?—They 
were perfectly well known. 

421. As I understand, it was knowm to them that the reason why you did not 
fulfil vour engagement was on account of the general financial disturbance ?— 

The causes of our failure were clearly pointed out to them in our letter of the 23d 
March 1857. 

422. I suppose it occurred to you that the alacrity with which they declined 
to extend the period for receiving the deposits showed rather an inclination on 
their part to throw you over?—We undoutedly thought so. 

423. Mr. Stephenson .] Did the information brought home by Sir Macdonald 
Stephenson comprise any plans or sections for the proposed line ?—No, it did 
not; but if comprised a flying level of the whole country. 

424. With no specific plans upon which an accurate estimate could be based ? 

—No. 

425. When did such plans reach this country ?—A section of the direct line 
to Mirzapore came home in the early part of 1847, I think, but the complete 
plans and sections of the line we are now r constructing have never been sent to 
this country ; they have been settled with the local Government. 

426. Have you no plans or sections of your line in this country?—The con¬ 
sulting engineers have some plans and sections, but I believe there are no com¬ 
plete plans and sections of the entire line. 

427. Chairman.'] Can you state to the Committee the average amount of money 
belonuing to your company which remains on deposit in the East India Com¬ 
pany’s treasury ?—I cannot tell the average amount, but at the end of last December 
there was a balance of something like 700,000 l. 

428. Is that the maximum that has ever been in their hands r—I think not; I 
think at times it has exceeded a million. 

42Q. So that you are quite justified in the opinion you gave just now, that in 
point of fact the guarantee is ordinarily paid out of the shareholders’ money ?—That 
certainly is the course I should adopt, if I were in the position of the East India 
Company. 

430. Mr. T. G. Baring.] Supposing the railway company to fail, who would 
pay the costs of the failure ?—Supposing the railway altogether to fail, the 
East India Company would be bound to repay the railway the capital expended. 

0.61. d 4 431. How 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr D I No art. 431 - How would they get the money?—That is a question I have not con- 

sidered. 

6 Muv 1858 432. Would it not come out of the taxation of India r—Probably. 

433. Colonel Sykes.] Is it not the fact that there are constantly occurring 
demands upon the Company for supplies sent out to India, and that it is absolutely 
necessary for the Company to retain in their hands a balance to meet these 
demands ?—I do not at all quarrel with the fact of the balance existing*. I think 
that a balance in the hands ot the East India Company is absolutely necessary; 
but what I say is, that that balance is never so affected as to prevent the East India 
Company paying out of it the guaranteed interest. 

434. Chairman.] You consider that, in effect, the East India Company stands 
in the position of a banker to the railway company ?—Precisely. 

435. And that, in the ordinary course of banking, it is quite open to them to 
make use of the balance in their hands tor the period during* which it is in their 
hands?—I should think they would be quite justified in doing so. 

436. Sir James Elphinstone.] Was there any probability, in the ordinary course 
of affairs, of a line constructed in the way proposed turning out a failure?—I 
think not. 

437. Mr. Hodgson.] Although the East India Company may take the amount 
of interest from the deposits which they have in their hands, still they will have 
to account to your contractors, or your Board, tor the whole of the deposit?— 
Ultimately. 

438. And therefore they will, in reality, have paid the interest upon the works 
during the progress of them ?—They will have paid the interest upon the whole 
of the capital; but I must say they will have made no advance out of our own 
funds until the whole, or nearly the whole of our capital has been expended. So 
long as we have a balance in their hands, so long, I presume, they will make use 
of that for payment of the guaranteed interest. 

439. Ultimately they will find that they have paid interest upon the capital 
during the construction of the works ?—We shall be their debtors, subject to 
certain contingencies for the amount of the interest they have paid. 

440. Mr. Cheetham.] Will they not, in the meantime, have been receiving 
interest upon your balance?—I should think so, in all probability. 

441. You do not suppose that they would allow your balance to remain idle? 
—No ; but I should say they can only lay it out for short intervals, because at 
any moment large demands may be made upon them. 

442. Mr. T. G. Baring.] It would be part of the general cash balance in the 
Indian Treasury?—I should think so. 

443. Mr. Crawford .] Do you believe that the East India Company are gene¬ 
rally lenders of money in the market ?—Yes. 

444. Chairman.] I presume you can furnish us with an account showing the 
exact amount of interest that the East India Company have paid upon the capital 
deposited?—I can tell you exactly; they paid, by way of interest upon the 
capital deposited by the railway company up to 31st December last, the sum of 
1,045,740/. 14 s. 5 d., and they have received from the railway company towards 
the payments of that interest 171,083 /. 5 s. 9 d. out of the profits of the line 
already opened. 

445. Mr. Cheetham .] What proportion of profits do you give up to the East 
India Company ?—We give up the whole of the profits until the entire line is 
completed ; and, as soon as it is completed, they take one-half of the surplus- 
profit beyond the guaranteed interest, until their advances are reimbursed ; as soon 
as that is effected we take the whole of the profits. 

446. So far as the opening of the line has proved, there is no liability on the' 
part of the East India Company?—Had our line been limited to the experi¬ 
mental section of 121 miles, we should at this moment have been receiving some 
thing beyond five per cent., and the East India Company would have had to 
provide no interest. 

447. Chairman.] Do the East India Company claim interest upon their 
advances for the payment of interest ?—The contract provides that the East India, 
Company is to receive interest upon the advances of money by them for the pay¬ 
ment of interest; of course it becomes a question what these advances may be 
fairly considered to be. 

448. Mr. Crawford.] The East India Company have in the meantime a large 
balance belonging to the East India Railway Company ?—Yes. 


449. Colonel 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


33 


449. Colonel Sykes.] Has any interest been paid to the East India Company 
on the ground of advances?—No, it is merely a matter of account. 

450. Mr. Crawford .] And the East India Railway Company has paid the sum 
of 170,000/. to the East India Company towards the reimbursement of those 
advances?—Yes. I should explain the question of interest between us and the 
East India Company: the East India Company’s guarantee is five per cent, upon 
our capital; and they are to be repaid those advances or payments provided only 
that the line earns more than five per cent; if it never earns more than five per 
cent, the interest paid by the East India Company will be a contribution on their 
part to the success of the undertaking. 

451. Colonel Sykes.] It will be a loss ?—It will be a pecuniary loss, in a certain 
sense. 

452. Mr. Crawford .] Do you suppose that the establishment of a line, although 
it may not pay five per cent., will necessarily be a loss to the East India Com¬ 
pany ?—No, I think they will reap political advantages by the construction of the 
line, which will more than compensate for anything they may be out of pocket. 

453. Mr. C. Bruce .] You think that the pecuniary loss is compensated to the 
Company by the advantages in other respects?—Yes. 

454. Chairman .] Have the Company the power of conveying troops and 
military stores over the line free?—They have not the liberty of conveying them 
free, but they have an advantage over the public in that respect. 

4^,5. Mr. II. A. Bruce.] Are they not also landlords of a large portion of the 
land traversed by this line ?—I believe so. 

456. Mr. Crawford.] Although there may be an apparent loss in figures sus¬ 
tained by the Company, they yet have received, in one form or another, benefits 
either in the shape of increase to their revenue, or in the shape of charges, 
which will much more than compensate any apparent loss ?—I think there can be 
no doubt about that. 

457. Mr. Cheetham.] Supposing the East India Company to be losers by the 
amount of the deficiency in the interest, you say you consider that that would be 
a contribution to the establishment of the railway company ?—It might be con¬ 
sidered a contribution to the establishment of the railway. 

458. Is it your opinion that this proposed line will develope the resources of 
India ? —Undoubtedly. 

459. Considering that they are the landlords of India, do you consider that 
that is a duty they ought to perform ?—I should not consider their duty limited 
to the development of the resources of India. 

460. That, at all events, you think they ought to have done?—Yes. 

461. Colonel Sykes.] With regard to the ownership of the land through which 
the line runs, has or has not the land been contributed by the East India Com¬ 
pany gratuitously to the railway company during the term of their lease ?—Yes. 

462. Free of expense ?—Free of expense. 

463. Chairman.] Starting now with the construction of the works, allow me 

to ask you the precise date of the turning of the first sod upon your line of rail¬ 
way?_Our staff went out in March 1850 ; the direction of the line was decided 

upon by the Government of India in August 1850; we obtained possession of 
the first 25 miles of land in January 1851. 

464. Out of Calcutta?—Out of Calcutta, I think. 

465. Mr. H. A. Bruce.] What do you mean, when you say that the direction 
of the'line was decided upon ?—The selection of the route was left to the Govern¬ 
ment of India. I was stating that we obtained possession of the first 25 miles of 
land in January 1851, and we were put into possession of the whole land over the 
121 miles in March 1852. We opened 37 \ miles in August and September 1 854 ; 
we completed the whole 121 miles in December 1854, and we opened the whole 
for public traffic in February 1855. 

466. From Calcutta to Raneegunge ?—Yes. 

467. Chairman.] In addition to the opening of that 121 miles, will you inform 
the Committee what further progress has been made over the whole extent ot 

line ?_During the construction of the 121 miles, we concluded arrangements with 

the East India Company for the construction of the line to Delhi, a distance of 
1,164 miles, with a view to its further extension to Lahore. The contract was 
finally settled in August 1854, and we obtained possession of some amount ot land 
in February 1 855. Of that line we opened, or were to have opened, 75 miles in 
the upper provinces last March. 

o6 y ^ E 468. Between 


Mr. D. I. Nca<t. 


6 May 1858. 



34 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. D. I 


6 May 


Noad. 468. Between Cawnpore and Allahabad?—Between Cawnpore and Allahabad; 

_. and we shall complete a further 50 miles in the same direction in June; that will 

1858. be the section from Allahabad to Cawnpore ; and in the lower provinces we shall 

open from 21 to 23 miles about the same time. The number of miles opened 
cannot be taken as any indication of the rale of progress. In my opinion we may 
open, probably, in the next two years, 500 miles of railway, but it would be as 

incorrect to say that we had opened them in two years, as it is now to measure the 

rate of progress by the mileage opened. 

469. In reference to this part of the inquiry, allow me to ask what was the 
precise period at which the alteration in the original direction of the line was 
proposed by the Government. We understand that the original surveys took 
the line in a direct course from Calcutta to Mirzapoor?—Yes. 

470. Can you tell the Committee when the Government suggested the altera¬ 
tion which has ended in bringing the line round by the valley of the Ganges, 
via Patna, and so to Mirzapoor?—I cannot speak positively to the date, but I 
think it must have been about September or October 1851 ; I think you will find 
that lhe report of Colonel Kennedy, upon which I believe the change was made, 
is dated January 1851. 

471. Do you attribute any portion of the delay that, may have occurred in the 
construction of the line to that alteration ?—I do not admit that there has been 
any delay in the construction of the line. 1 think that some part of the time 
occupied in constructing the line is attributable to the alteration in the route, as 
I think the physical difficulties on the line via the Ganges are much greater than 
those we should have encountered on the direct line. 

472. You mean to say, that had the railway company been allowed to con¬ 
struct the line according to their original plan, it might have been expected that 
the direct line to Mirzapoor would have been completed by this timer—I do not 
go so far as to say that it would have been completed by this time, but I think 
that a much longer length of line would have been brought into public use before 
this. 

473. Do you think that the commercial and other reasons which induced the 
Government to propose that alteration w ere sufficiently important to justify that 
change in the direction of the line?—My own individual opinion is that they 
were not; but it is an individual opinion which, I believe, is not coincided in by 
the railway company. 

474. Would it not have been necessary, for the purpose of opening out the 
resources of that large extent of country, to have constructed branch lines, running 
off the main line in the direction of Patna?—Ultimately I think it might have 
been necessary. 

475. Can you state what may be considered the measure of time for the com¬ 
pletion of the whole line ?—I think that whole question resolves itself into the 
rapidity with which we can construct the enormous number of heavy bridges and 
flood arches along the Ganges Valley Line. 

476. Can you give the Committee any idea of the amount of brickwork neces¬ 
sary for the construction of those bridges ?—Between the junction at Burdwan and 
the River Soane, a distance, I think, of about 400 miles, there cannot be less than 
47,000,000 of cubic feet of brickwork. 

477. Does that include the gigantic work over the Soane?—That inludes, 1 think, 
the substructure of the bridge over the Soane. 

478. What is the actual length of line, and the probable objects of the line 
already sanctioned ?■—The length of line (excluding the line recently sanctioned) 
to Delhi or Meerut, will be about 1,164 miles. 

479* Jhat line which you have excluded, I imagine, is the line recently sanc¬ 
tioned to Jubbulpoor ?—Exactly. 

480. Can you state the quantity of permanent way materials that have been 
sent out tor the purposes of this line?—The total weight ot permanent way 
materials and bridges for the line is 223,887 tons, w hich would give a weight per 
mile ol about 193 tons; that is exclusive of sleepers. 

481. Does that include the bridging works?—That does not include the super¬ 
structures of any of the large bridges. 

482. Mr. Stephenson .] Does it include the rolling stock ?—No ; merely perma¬ 
nent way material. 

483. Chairman .] What has been the cost of that mass of permanent way ?— 
The total cost has been 1,885,671 1. 

484. Mr. 



35 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

484. Mr. II. A. Bruce.'] Is that the cost of the articles?—The actual cost of 
the materials themselves, without reference to the conveyance of them. 

485. Chairman.] Will you give us the cost per mile?—The cost per mile, 
exclusive of freight between this country and India, would be about 1,620/. 

486. Can you give us the quantity of materials actually shipped ?—We have 
actually shipped of dead weight 202,637 tons, and of what we call measurement, 
which would include locomotives and rolling stock, 46,779 tons, or in other words, 
about 220,000 tons of dead weight. 

487. Can you give the Committee the rates of freight and insurance paid upon 
those materials r—The average rate of freight upon dead weight has been 
1/. os. \vid. per ton; upon measurement, including the cutting of about 30 
ships, 1 /. 17 s., the average of weight and measurement being 24 s. per ton ; the 
insurance has been 5 s. o Id. per ton. 

488. Can you state the amount of shipping employed for the conveyance of this 
dead weight?—We began shipping in 1852 to a small extent, and also in 1853, 
but our principal shipments have been from 1854 up to 1857, and during that 
time we employed 659 ships. The total number of vessels engaged in the trade 
between 1852 and 1857 was 1,407, of a burden of 1,057,839 tons ; it is generally 
assumed that about one-third of the measurement tonnage of a ship is available 
for dead weight, and, that, during these six years, would give us a tonnage of 
352,603 tons. 

489. 1 presume considerable difficulty has been experienced in the conveyance 
of this mass of dead weight up the country ?—That has actually been one of the 
greatest difficulties we have had to contend with. 

490. Describe to the Committee, from your own knowledge, what the arrange¬ 
ments have been for the conveyance of these materials ?—I think our agents in 
India have availed themselves of almost every possible means for the conveyance 
of those materials up the country. A great mass of the materials have gone up 
the river to Allahabad, and we have entered at various times into contracts of 
one description and another, but the whole of them have ultimately broken down, 
and the Board are now considering what are the most efficient means they can 
adopt for conducting the transport with anything like success. 

491. Have you contemplated the employment of any vessels or steamers of 
your own for the purpose of transporting these materials ?—I think originally Mr. 
Stephenson made some proposition to the Government of India, although I am 
not very clear upon the point. I think when he went to India, or early in 1851, he 
made some proposition to the Government to build steamers of a light draught 
of water for this purpose, but it was not authorised. I have an impression on my 
mind that that is the fact, but I am not quite positive. 

492. Describe to the Committee what your present arrangements are for the 
construction of your works ?—Nearly the whole of the works from Calcutta to 
Allahabad, or rather from within 45 miles of the junction at Burdwan, were 
formerly let out to contractors. With the exception of two contracts, at the present 
moment every contract has failed, and we are now constructing the whole of 
the works by our own officers. 

493. These contracts were not, I believe, entered into with native contractors ? 
—No, but with Europeans settled in India. 

494. Can you state the number of different contracts entered into for the con¬ 
struction of works between Calcutta and Allahabad ?—The first 46 miles beyond 
the junction at Burdwan are now, and have always been in the hands of the 
company ; the next 133 miles were in the hands of a firm of the name of Nelson 
& Co.; the next 156 or 157 miles were divided into two contracts between the 
firms of Macintosh k Co. and Ward k Co.; and the next 84 miles, in the Soane 
district, were in the hands of a firm of the name of Burns k Co.; the next 50 
miles were in the same hands ; the following 95 miles were in the hands ofMessrs. 
Hunt k Co.; and the section from Allahabad to Cawnpore was in the hands of 
Messrs. Norris k Co. The failures that have taken place have reference to the 
contracts of Messrs. Nelsou k Co., Macintosh & Co., and Ward & Co. 

495. Which are the firms that have not failed ?—Messrs. Burn & Co., Hunt 
k Co., and Norris k Co.’s contracts are the only ones that have not broken down. 

496. Were any of these contracts offered in the first instance to English con¬ 
tractors in this country?—No. 

497. Why not?—The Board’s instructions were, that as soon as the surveys 
were completed, the plans and sections should be sent to this country in order 

0.61. e 2 that 


Mr. D. I. Noad. 
6 May 1858. 


36 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. D. I. Noad. that we might publicly advertise for tenders in this country ; but instead of our 

- receiving that information, we received these several contracts, which had been 

6 May 1858. entered into without reference to the Board, but with the direct sanction of Lord 
Dalhousie and the local Government. 

498. Mr. Crawford. ] Can you state generally the dimensions and character 
of the bridges you have to cross between Calcutta and Allahabad ?—The two 
main bridges, of course, are over the Soane and the Jumna. The Soane bridge 
is probably three-quarters of a mile in length. The length of the Jumna bridge 
I cannot tell you, for we have not any surveys. 

499. What is the principle of the Soane bridge ?—The substructure is made of 
brick and the superstructure of iron. There was some difficulty in procuring the 
assent of the local Government of India to the construction of the superstructure 
of that bridge of iron. 

500. Was it not the intention of the engineers of the company in India, under 
the control of the Government authorities, to construct this large bridge over the 
Soane entirely of brick r—Yes. 

501. By arches ?—By brick arches. 

502. Why was the idea abandoned ? —The idea was abandoned because we 
positively prohibited it. We were not at all satisfied that bricks could be 
obtained in such quantities as would lead to the possibility of the bridge being 
constructed for the next 10 years; and we accordingly wrote to our engineer in 
India to request that the plans of the bridge might be altered. They were altered, 
after some discussion and controversy with the officers of the Government, and 
the iron superstructure decided upon, and shipped. 

503. The iron superstructure has been forwarded ?—It has. 

504. Where was it put together?—At Armstrong’s works, in Newcastle. 

505. Whose design was it ?—Those of the late Mr. Rendel. 

506. Is any difficulty apprehended in putting together the superstructure of the 
bridge in India, after the piers have been built up?—Not the slightest. 

507. Is any difficulty expected in the formation of those piers in India for the 
Soane bridge?—I think, when they have succeeded in making one set of wells, 
they will have no difficulty with the remainder. They will come to the foundation 
in about 30 feet. 

508. Mr. C. Bruce.] What is the foundation ?—Clay. 

509. Mr. Crawford.] In your opinion, what will be the cost of that bridge 
when completed ?—I can scarcely say. 

510. What is the contract price of the superstructure?—£. 67,000 or 68,000 l. 

511. With regard to the other bridges which you have referred to as causing 
some difficulty on the main line shortly after leaving Burdwan, can you give any 
general description of the character of those bridges ?—The two bridges over the 
Mo and the Adjie are large bridges; I think one of them is three times the 
width of the Thames at London Bridge; that bridge is entirely constructed of 
brick. 

512. That is a part of the work under the immediate superintendence of the 
company’s officers ?—Yes. 

513. What is the name of the gentleman who is employed?—Mr. Sibley. 

514. Chairman.] I presume the immense magnitude of these bridging works 
is to be accounted for by the immense sweep of the floods ?—During inundations. 

515. Mr. Crawford.] The course of the line from the Burdwan Junction towards 
Rajmahal is over a very difficult country?—As the country is much affected by 
floods. 

516. The company, as I understand, has experienced considerable difficulty in 
obtaining a sufficient quantity of material in the form of brick ?—Great difficulty 
in procuring sufficient quantities of brick within the time they were required. 

517. Have the company taken steps to overcome that difficulty ?—Mr. Rendel, 
one of the consulting engineers, has been sent out to see how far it. will be 
possible to apply iron more extensively than was contemplated in making 
bridges. 

518. You anticipate no difficulty, as 1 understand, in overcoming those difficul¬ 
ties eventually?—None, provided we are allowed anything like freedom of action 
in the construction of the work. 

519. Is any part of the line below Allahabad in a condition to receive its per¬ 
manent way yet?—No. 

520. I think I understood you to say that one of the great difficulties the com¬ 

pany 



37 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

pany experiences at the present moment is in the forwarding of its permanent way 
up the country ?—Yes. 

.521. May not that difficulty constitute, in point of fact, the key to the period 
when the line will be opened ?—In the upper provinces, I think it will, but in 
the lower provinces it is a question of brickwork. 

522. Mr. C. Bruce.] You have stated that the Company gave you the land 
upon which the line is made ; have you any idea of the value of that land ?—No, 

I have not. 

523. Colonel Sykes.] When the diversion from the direct line to Mirzapoor was 
made, what were the reasons assigned for the alteration ; were they commercial 
rather than political and military?—I think so; it was assumed that it would be 
a much easier line of construction, and likely to give a much larger profit. I 
should say that our own engineer concurred in the propriety of the alteration. 

I think it took place principally at the recommendation of Colonel Kennedy; he 
gave some very weighty reasons for the alteration, but I think his principal reason 
was an impression which he seemed to have that no railway with a less ruling 
gradient than 1 in 2,000 could by possibility be worked at a profit. I think that 
really was one of the main grounds of his advocacy of this particular line. 

524. It was not, then, from political or military reasons?—I think not. 

525. Do you think, consequently, that it will be very advantageous to the com¬ 
pany to go by Raneegunge ?—My own individual opinion is that it will be 
less so. 

526. Are you aware of the width of the Soane during the time of the inunda¬ 
tions?—I should think about three-quarters of a mile. 

527. Is it not more than that ?—I do not think it is more than that where we 
propose crossing. 

52S. Will you not require the substratum of your bridge to be commensurate 
with the extent of the inundation?—There will be, undoubtedly, an enormous 
length of flood arching at either end of the approaches, in addition to the piers on 
which the actual superstructure of the bridge will be placed. 

529. You will require a substructure of arches for two miles and a quarter, the 
extent of the inundations during the monsoon, with reference to a bridge for which 
you would only require three-quarters of a mile ?—I do not think that there will 
be anything like two miles of flood arching, but it will be considerable. 

530. Mr. Crawford.] Was not the site of the Soane bridge altered, having 
regard to the fact that there were high banks on each side ?—I cannot speak posi¬ 
tively to that. 

531. Colonel Sykes.~\ I understand that you will have to descend 30 feet before 
you come to the substratum of day ?—Yes. 

532. Do you consider that the delays which have occurred in consequence of 
the failure of European contractors have been injurious to the progress of the 
railway ?—Yes. 

533. Mr. Campbell.] From your knowledge of railways generally, and East 
India railways in particular, do you consider that the lines ol railway have been 
established more with reference to the established march of commerce than with 
regard to the general population of the country ?—I think the choice of direction 
has been very fairly made, and that all three objects are attained by the lines that 
have been laid out. 

534. Mr. Cheetham.] What is the increased distance caused by the altering ot 
the original scheme?—From 120 to 13° miles. 

<535Part of that deviation has led to increased difficulties in the route, has it 
not?—I think so ; I ihink all the difficulties that we have met with from the 
heavily inundated nature of the country we should have avoided in the direct 
line ; but no doubt we should have had other difficulties. W e should have had 
steep.er gradients, and consequently heavier cuttings ; but I do not think we should 
anything equally difficult of construction as that which occurs by the line via the 

Ganges. ... ... 

536. You come there, do you not, in direct competition with steam navigation 
_j should scarcely call it competition ; I think one will assist the oilier. 

537. You do not expect that the river navigation will prove any detriment to 
your line ?—No. 

538. What is the state of the country as regards population on the direct route 
to Mirzapore; is it populous ?—'The line, right away to the Ganges, taps a large 

0.61. E 3 number 


Mr. D. /. Noad. 


6 May 1858. 



3S 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. D. I. Hoad, number of towns and villages, which it would not have accommodated if the line 
- had been made direct. 

6 May 1858. 539. What is the nature of the country on the direct line as regards agricultural 

produce?—I think the lines are very much the same in that respect. 

540. You have added 120 miles to the line in order to go through a larger 
population?—And to avoid gradients which were considered to be impracticable ; 
but the effect of going a greater distance will not be felt until the line is open from 
Delhi or Meerut to Benares, because the whole of the traffic coming to, or going 
from, that district will have to pass unnecessarily over 120 miles of railway; that 
is my principal objection to the circuitous route. 

541. Have the Government, in a military and political point of view, great 
advantages in the existing line over the direct route?—I think the Government 
would have derived greater advantages by taking the direct line. 

542. You are not aware whether Colonel Kennedy was influenced by military 
and political reasons for suggesting the longer route ?—No; I think bis views 
were rather commercial and engineering than anything else. 

543. You stated that your opinion was, that the commercial advantages of this 
change of route were not sufficient to counterbalance the disadvantages?—I 
think so. 

544. Looking at it in a commercial point of view, you think that corresponding 
advantages are not gained by that route ?—I think not. 

545. And you have 120 miles extra over which to carry your produce?—Yes. 

546. You have stated the average cost of freight from this country is 24 s. per 
ton ?—Yes. 

547. You say that there is an extra cost of 20 s. per ton arising from the devia¬ 
tion in your line?—I say that the additional mileage will involve an additional 
cost of about 205. per ton to the public. 

548. Which deviation was made at the suggestion of the East India Company? 
—Yes ; but I am hound to add, that it was finally concurred in by our engineer. 
I am not quite clear that I do not stand alone in the opinions I entertain upon 
this subject. 

549. Mr. Hodgson.'] When you say that this line will occasion an increase of 
20 5. per ton in the expense, do you take into consideration the economy which 
will result from working the easier gradients on this line?—I do not think, prac¬ 
tically, that we shall work at any greater expense on the present line than we 
should have done if we had made the direct line. 

550. You say that the gradients are much easier on the present line ?—They 
are, undoubtedly. 

551. Is it not a necessary consequence that the working will be more econo¬ 
mical?—That depends, I think, upon circumstances. 

552. Is it not so, as a general rule?—As a general rule, we have no difficulty 
in this country in working gradients of 1 in 300 , or less than that. 

553. In your opinion, the improvement of the gradients will not compensate 
for the greater distance you have to travel?—I think not; because I think that 
while we adopt a line made to get better gradients, we add to the capital cost of 
the line. 

554. You have informed us that most of the contractors have failed; do you 
know whether there is any particular reason for that?—I think the real cause 
was, that they embarked in undertakings quite beyond their means. They really 
knew little or nothing about railway construction, and they could scarcely tell 
what they were embarking upon ; altogether the contracts were ill advised. 

555. You consider that there were no extraordinary circumstances to explain 
the failures?—I think probably, in the case of the Rajamahal district, where the 
parties were considerably affected by the Sontal rebellion, there might be some 
reason for their being obliged to give up their contracts. 

556. In your opinion, did the company sustain any great disadvantage from 
the contracts being let in India without having first submitted them to competition 
in England?—I do not think that they were taken on terms that were too high, 
but I think that no terms can be satisfactory which bring about a failure ; because 
it would have been far better for us to have commenced the work in the first 
instance than to have to take up the work from other people. That is an important 
consideration in India, because we have great difficulty in inducing one set of 
workmen to take up work which has been left by others. 

557. You think that that difficulty would have been avoided if you had had an 

opportunity 



39 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

opportunity of offering- the contracts for public competition in England ?—Assuming 
that those who took the contracts would perform them satisfactorily. 

558. Mr. H. A. Bruce.] I presume that under any circumstances you would 
have continued the line to Raneegunge?—We should have gone right through. 

559. Would you have made the line to Burdwan if you had at the first decided 
upon the Ganges line ?—Yes, we should ; we should have made it as a branch, to 
accommodate the large coal fields. 

560. You have stated that the alteration in the route has led to your making 
120 miles of additional liner—Yes. 

561. I presume that, it you had adhered to the original and direct Mirzapoor 
line, it would have been part of y T our plan, by branches, to connect your line with 
the great towns?—It was part of the scheme to make branches to Rajumahal and 
to Patna. 

562 Do you recollect what the worst gradients on the direct line were?—I 
think there was a gradient of 1 in 65 for a distance of, perhaps, 10 miles out 
of 1,000. 

563. Do you recollect what was the highest point above the level of the sea ?— 
I do not. 

364. You say that one item of cost in the formation of the Ganges line was 
the number of large rivers to be crossed ?—Yes. 

595. Is it not a fact that the Soane, at the point at which the direct Mirzapoor 
line would have crossed it, is much broader than the point at which the new line 
crosses it?—It is broader. 

566. In the proportion of three-fourths of a mile to two miles and a quarter ? 
— I think not. 

567. Is it not so stated in Colonel Kennedy’s report?—It may be. 

568. Can you explain how it is that the distance, as I understand, from Cal¬ 
cutta to Delhi by the direct road being 880 miles, the length of the railway is 
1,164 miles, although the increase of distance by the Ganges line is only 120 
miles ?—The distance from Calcutta to Benares is 566 miles. 

569. By the railway ?—By the railway ; and the distance by the direct road is 
430 miles ; the difference exists between Benares and Calcutta. 

570. Can you account for the immense difference of distance between the 
railway to Delhi and the road to Delhi, a difference of 300 miles?—I cannot at this 
moment; it may arise from deviations to take in particular towns. 

571. Mr. Stephenson.] And which places the river does not accommodate? — 
Which places probably the river does not accommodate. 

572. Mr. H. A. Bruce. J According to your opinion, the line by the Ganges 
sacrifices the upper districts to the lower districts?—Yes. 

573. Have you calculated what the relative cost of conveyingma terials is, as 
between England and Calcutta on the one hand, and from Calcutta into the interior 
on the other?—I do not think we have conveyed any materials up to Allahabad 
at a less cost than from 25 s. to 40 s. per ton ; and the cost between England and 
India has been 24 s. As regards rails, the cost of conveyance between England 
and India was 1 /. 0 5. 11 d. only. 

574. Mr. Stephenson.] Were all your contracts made in India?—All of them : 
we had no opportunity of passing any opinion upon them here. 

575. As I understand, neither the plans, nor the schedule of prices, nor the 
conditions of the contracts, came under the observations of the Board in this 
country ?—They did not come under their observation until it was too late. 

576. What do you mean by that?—The works were commenced upon before 
we received copies of the contracts. 

.577. Are you continuing to let contracts on the same plan?—No; we are con¬ 
structing the works ourselves, with the exception of those contracts that have not 
broken down. 

578. You have no contracts in prospect?—No, we have no contracts in pros¬ 
pect on the main line. 

579. From the experience you have had on the contract system conducted on 
your line, would you recommend any other course, supposing you had to begin 
the work again?—Yes, 1 undoubtedly should, i should first of all have our 
own surveys and our own estimates, and I should take care that those plans and 
sections were sent to this country. I should then, of course, lay the plans and 
sections open, and should advertise for tenders in this country. In accepting or 

0.61. E4 rejecting 


Mr. D. 1 . Noad. 


6 May 1858- 



40 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT 


Mr .D.I.Noad. rejecting tenders, I should look at the prices as compared with our own 
— - estimates. 

G May 1858. 580. You sav you would have plans and sections made by your own engi¬ 

neers, and sent to this country ?—Yes. 

581. Who made the sections and plans of the original contract?—Mr. 
Turnbull. 

582. He was your own engineer, was he not?—He was, and is stili. 

583. So far as the preparation of the plans and the conditions of the contract 
is concerned, they would be the same as they were originally ?—The conditions of 
the contract might be modified a little. 

584. The modification you would suggest would be merely in sending the plans 
and sections here, and in advertising for tenders ?—Yes, that was the mode of pro ¬ 
cedure. 

585. Mr. Crawford.] Did you not take that course in reference to the Jub- 
bulpoor line?—Yes. 

586. Mr. Stephenson.] I suppose you are aware that other Indian raiiway 
companies have adopted the plans you are now’ suggesting?—Yes. 

587. Is not that the case with the Bombay line, for instance ?—Yes. 

588. With regard to the extra 120 miles that you have spoken of, you say 
there are steep gradients of 1 in 65, for a distance of two or three mles? 
— Yes, for perhaps 10 miles. 

589. Do you know what would be the ruling gradient upon that line?—I think 
it might be constructed with a ruling gradient of 1 in 300 ; the Government will 
not allow a worse gradient than 1 in .500. In one case of a cutting through the 
Seetapahar Hills, between Rajmahal and Colgong, they made a concession, and 
allowed a gradient of 1 in 200, and we saved something like half of the earthwork 
in consequence. 

590. Mr. C. Bruce.] You were asked about branches, which, had the direct line 
been constructed, it might have been necessary to make ; I believe the connexion of 
the main line with the Ganges, commercially speaking, would be highly advan¬ 
tageous to Patna as a large place ?—Yes. 

591. What length of line must have been made between Burdwan and Raj¬ 
mahal ?—I think from Burdwan to Rajmahal it is about 128 miles. 

592-3. What is the distance from the upper crossing of the Soane at Patna -— 
I do not know. 

594. In point of fact, by the change of line and the distance necessary for the 
development of that country from Burdwan to Rajmahal, 180 miles have been 
saved, and from the crossing of the Soane probably about one-half that distance, 
that is to say, 250 miles have been saved by the addition of 120 miles to the direct 
line?—Except that, I think ultimately the direct line will still be made. 

595. You were asked about the nature of the country through which these two 
lines pass; did I understand you to say that the two routes were very similar in 
their character ?—The nature of the country in the direct line is more hilly and 
wild, and to some extent jungly. 

590. And uncultivated?—To some extent. 

597. Is it a very populous country ?—No. 

598. I believe the new^ line goes through a cultivated and populous country? 
—Yes. 

599. The line originally proposed would have gone through a wild and uncul¬ 
tivated, and I believe in many parts of it an uninhabited country?—I do not 
know whether it is uninhabited. No doubt, as a commercial line, the circuitous 
line at first sight appears to show the greatest advantages, but I do not think that 
it possesses them. 

600. Mr. Cheetham.] Have not Rajamahal and Patna already communication 
with Calcutta by railway?—Yes. 

601. And the other places have not ?—They have what is called the present 
Government-road, but they have no other means of communication. Perhaps I 
may give the Committee some idea of the difficulty of transport along that road, 
when 1 tell them that at this moment they are asking 15 rupees for the conveyance 
of one rail from Calcutta to Allahabad. 

602. Of course the direct line, if made, would have been completed much 
earlier to Mirzapoor than the existing line ?—I think so. 

603. Colonel Sykes.] Do we understand you to say that the Government would 
not sanction a steeper gradient than 1 in 500?—They have hitherto refused. 

604. What 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 41 

604. What is your authority for that statement ?—Our correspondence from 
India and the evidence of our engineer. 

605. You are not speaking of correspondence with the Court ?—No ; we have 
never raised the question with the Court. 

606. The direct line runs through a less populous and more jungly district 
than the circuitous line; does not the circuitous line embrace a greater number 
of commercial entrepots than the direct line ?—Yes. 

607. Mr. Crawford.'] Your notion is, that a line to Mirzapoor could have been 
constructed already, upon what maybe termed the telescopic principle?—Yes; 
instead ot having to meet the enormous expense and the enormous difficulties in. 
the transport of materials along the river, I think that had the line taken the 
direct course we should have opened a much longer length of line for public use 
by this time than we have done. 

608. Mr. Stephenson.] Supposing you makethe first 50 miles of railway, you must 
necessarily, in the construction of those 50 miles, convey a very large portion of 
the materials over bad roads ?—We had the existing trunk road, which is a good 
road. 

609. Then when you finished this 50 miles, you bring your rails to the end of 
these 50 miles ?—Yes. 

610. And then you must repeat your operation as regards the next 50 miles, 
you would not necessarily, as suggested, make the railway on telescope prin¬ 
ciples?—The railway would not convey the whole of the materials for the next 
succeeding length of line. 

611. You would only be able to avail yourselves of these 50 miles of railway 
when it was constructed. You began with the next 50 miles as you would with 
anv 50 miles of railway in any part of the world ?—Yes. 

612. Would not that be simply conveying by common roads all the materials 
for these 50 miles?—For the second 50 miles; but every succeeding 50 miles 
completed would save so much transit along the common road. Conveyance by 
road does insure you some protection against loss, whereas losses are constantly 
occurring on the river. No sooner does a boat arrive at any particular viilage 
■where the boatmen have friends, than they simply abandon the boat and materials, 
and there the materials lie perhaps for months during the whole of the rainy 
season, until the next dry season, when we have to re-collect them at great expense; 
it is scarcely possible to estimate the cost of conveying those heavy materials by 
the Ganges. 

613. Mr. C. Bruce. ] Is there any insuperable difficulty in your adapting the 
principle, so far as it goes, as you go on, to the construction of the present line ? 
—I do not think there would have been any difficulty; I think there has been a 
great mistake made in commencing operations over so great a length of line atone 
moment. 

614. Chairman .] Before we proceed to another branch of the question, allow 
me to ask you, was there any opinion prevalent in India that the works might 
have been executed in a much shorter time than actually was the case?—I gather 
from the fact that Lord Dalhousie, or the Government of India, actually sanc¬ 
tioned contracts under which the whole 1,164 miles were to be made in two 
years, that therefore they considered that it was much easier to make railways in 
India than we have found it at home. That is one of the points of objection we 
have always entertained to the contracts entered into in India. It was, in fact, im¬ 
possible to have delivered the materials in India in time to ensure the completion 
of the works in two years, and subsequent events have showed us that if we had 
delivered the materials it was impossible to have forwarded them up the line. 

615. Mr. C. Bruce.] You have adverted to the beneficial effect of the pressure 
by the press upon the Government. May not the same pressure have led to the 
exercise of that control, the disadvantages of which you have pointed out?—I do 
not think that it had any effect at the time. 

616. Mr. D. Seymour.] Have you ever in this country been refused permission 
to make a gradient less than 1 in 500 ?—Not in this country. 

617. I believe a general order about the gradients was made three or four 
years ago ?—Yes. 

6 18. ^Lnder the recommendation of Lord Dalhousie and Colonel Kennedy, as 
consulting engineer?—Yes. 

619. Are you not aware that that was altered by the Government of this 
country ?—I was not aware of that fact. I am aware that the local Government 

0.61. F has 


Mr. D. /. Noad. 


G May 1858. 



42 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT 


Mr. D.I. Noad. has never, with the exception of the particular cutting I have referred to, allowed 

- us to construct a gradient less than that which I have stated. 

6 May 1858. 620. You are not aware that as soon as the Home Government heard of it, they 

said it was inexpedient?—I was not aware of the fact; I am glad to hear it. 

621. Was there not a report from your engineer, saying that at the present 
rate of progress, the East India Railway Company, as far as Rajmahal, could 
not be opened for 17 years?—Some time since, in consequence of a large loss of 
bricks by some unexpected floods in the Rajmahal district, our engineer wrote 
home to tell us what the probable rate of progress would be in making the bricks, 
and we deduced from that information that it would occupy from six to seven 
years to complete the line from Burdwan to Rajmahal; and that, if the same dif¬ 
ficulties existed in what we call the Keul and Hullohur districts, the necessary 
flood arches within those districts could not be completed for 15 years. We 
assumed that from the rate of progress they were making on the Rajmahal 
district. 

622 How was it that you had no brickmakers out there ?—We have been 
making bricks at a tolerably satisfactory rate of progress, though not nearly quick 
enough for our purposes. Our engineers designed the work in brick because they 
were given to understand that brick would be the cheapest material; they could 
have but little knowledge of the local resources of the country, and we confess it 
was a great disappointment to us that the Government officers, who ought to have 
possessed that local knowledge, did not communicate it to us. 

623. Mr. Crawford .] I gather from what you have said about the limited 
experience of railway engineers as compared with those in the Government de¬ 
partments, you are of opinion that if the Government engineers sanction any 
course of proceeding a considerable amount of responsibility would devolve upon 
them ?—I think so ; I think that if the supervision exercised by the Government 
is to be of any service it is to be in such matters as this. 

624. When did you commence your works upon the Rajmahal district?— 
Somewhere about June 1853. 

625. In fact, the experience of your engineers only dates from 1853 as regards 
the manufacture of bricks in that district ?—I do not know that I should limit it 
to that date, because they have been in India since 1850 ; I confess I do not 
altogether acquit our engineers of blame : they should have reported the probable 
scarcity of bricks before. 

626. Colonel Sykes.] Have your works been interrupted by the recent dis¬ 
orders ?— .They have been entirely stopped. We suffered severely from the 
Santhal insurrection ; I should think it threw us back in our operations for some 
] 2 months, and in fact the evil influences resulting from that are not yet at an 
end. By the recent disasters our works were stopped from May to December. 

627. Mr. Stephenson.] In speaking of the Soan bridge, and "the delay caused 
by the alteration, you said it would be completed by a certain time provided you 
were not interfered with ?—I was speaking then of the bridges and the flood arches 
on the line between Burdwan and Rajmahal. What I said, or meant to say, 
was, that I believe there would be no difficulty in completing that line at an 
early period, provided our engineers were allowed something like freedom of 
action in the construction of the works, and if they were not circumscribed and 
limited in their proceedings by the Government engineers. 

628. What is the nature of the control or interference which the Government 
engineers have the power of exercising ?—They have the power of exercising a 
control upon the minutest points, and whilst they exercise that control as agreeably 
as it is possible to exercise it, they undoubtedly avail themselves of their power 
to the fullest extent. 

629. From the reports that you have had from your engineers, you believed 
that that produces delay, and is of great prejudice to the Company ?—I think the 
effect is decidedly prejudicial. 

630. Mr. T. G. Baring .] Has it produced delay?—I think it has, but not to 
such an amount as to be of any great importance. 

631. Chairman.] I pass now to another branch of the enquiry, and I wish you 
to give the Committee some information as to the extent of your European staff 
in India at this moment r We have 111 engineers, 48 inspectors, and 97 Euro¬ 
peans in our locomotive and traffic departments. 

632. I wish to ask your opinion as to the advantage or otherwise of the 
Government supervision, and its general effect in India?-Looking at the rela¬ 
tions 



43 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

tions which exist between the two bodies, I think it is reasonable that the 
Government should possess the right of supervision, and moreover, I think the 
supervision would be highly advantageous to the railway companv if exercised 
rationally. I think it is carried to too minute a point in India; I think our 
engineers are unnecessarily interfered with. I think they are called upon from 
morning till night for papers, returns, explanations and documents, which 
materially retard the progress of their operations, and moreover it creates a kind of 
depression, and a certain want of energy which is unsatisfactory. I think that is 
the great evil of the supervision as exercised. I am bound to say that, had it 
not been for the extreme desire on the part of the Government officers to carry 
the work forward, and their extreme courtesy and gentlemanly bearing throughout 
these proceedings, I consider that the thing must have been brought to a dead 
lock before this. The extent to which I think the supervision should go, is this ; 
that a principle should he agreed upon ; any given work should be estimated for, 
and the estimates having been once agreed upon, the actual construction and 
carrying out of the works should be left entirely to our officers. 

633. In the event of the sections and plans being submitted to Government 
approval in the first instance, I presume you would have no objection to an audit 
of the accounts from time to time, in order to check any extravagant expenditure, 
provided you were left free without any interference to obtain stock and materials ? 
—I think such an audit would be highly desirable, in fact, I should ask for such 
an audit as that, because none of us are any the worse for a little checking. 

634. You are of opinion, as I understand, that the Government might bv 
adopting that course, ensure all the necessary protection against extravagant 
expenditure on the part of the company, whilst at the same time you could carry 
out your works with much greater expedition than you can at present?—Yes; we 
have been at immense pains to collect together, perhaps one of the best staffs of 
engineers possible; but I do feel that the whole or nearly the whole of their 
practical experience is frittered away under the existing system of supervision, 
and that we might have had a very much lower class of men altogether. 

035. I presume you have been in communication continually with your 
engineers; can you inform the Committee whether they have felt a certain 
amount of soreness and irritation in consequence of being superintended bv 
gentlemen for whom they have the greatest respect as gentlemen, but whom they 
do not consider qualified to superintend the works which they were constructing, 
from the want of the necessary education for that purpose ?—That is so. Every 
one of our engineers who has been sent out, arrives in India with the belief 
(whether it be so or not is not for me to say), that his practical experience is far 
greater than that of the man to whom he has to submit his plans, and he really 
has, rightly or w'rongly, no confidence whatever in the decision arrived at by the 
engineers of the Government, who are military engineers. 1 think that most of 
the irritation which undoubtedly has existed, and still exists, would have been 
avoided, had the supervision been entrusted to the hands of a civil engineer. 

636. Might not a military engineer complain of having a civil engineer placed 
over him when engaged in the construction of military works, with as much justice 
as a civil engineer now has, in finding a military engineer placed over him when 
he is constructing tunnels, earth works, and matters of that sort ?—I think so. 

637. Can you tell the Committee whether there has been any refusal on the 
part of the Government to sanction an increase of the working staff in India, upon 
the requisition of the chief engineer ?—Yes, owing to the failure of our contractors 
in India, a considerable amount of work devolved upon us, and Mr. Turnbull 
stated it w as necessary that his staff should be increased by an addition of 25 per 
cent. The Government refused positively to allow that addition, and the question 
was submitted to the home authorities ; but whilst the Government stated Mr. 
Turnbull’s demand to be excessive, they did not state what, in their own opinion, 
would be reasonable, so that when it came here we were in some difficulty as to the 
settlement of the question. 

638. What were the grounds upon which the Government supported their 
objection ?—Simply that they did not think the amount of engineering supervision 
which he considered necessary was absolutely necessary to the due execution of 
the works. 

639. Can you state wffiat has been done in consequence of that objection on the 
Government, and how the matter stands now ?—When the question was referred 

0.61. f 2 home 


Mr. 2 >. I. Noad. 


6 May 1858. 



44 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. D. I. Noad. home we placed the matter before the Court of Directors, and we suggested, that, 

- pending the information we required from the Government of India, as to their 

C May 1858. views, we should commence at all events by adding 10 per cent., upon our own 
responsibility, which the Court acquiesced in, and the additional men were sent 
out. We referred the matter back to India last August, and, until very recently, 
the Government and Mr. Turnbull were not in accord as to the right number, and 
we have heard nothing more of it. Just at this moment 1 happen to have a 
letter which is very pertinent to the question, and which is addressed by Mr. 
Turnbull to our agent at Calcutta, under date 21st January 1858 ; it is with re¬ 
ference to an additional amount of assistance which he required in the Rajmahal 
district; he says, “ I forward an indent, No. 612, tor ^ix additional assistants at 
300 rupees each, for the middle Rajmahal district; I am not aware whether the 
indents for establishment have been filled up; but from Mr. Vigor’s silence on the 
subject, I presume that such is the case. I lose no time, however that may be, 
in asking for more assistance on that division of the railway, 25 miles in length, 
under Mr. Vaux; it is on this part that the difficulty exists which will prevent 
the railway from being opened to Rajmahal. The district is, as I mentioned in a 
former letter, very sickly, and it is highly desirable, indeed it is absolutely neces¬ 
sary, unless we allow the works to stand still, that we should have extra bands to 
take the place of those who fall sick or die. Mr. Vaux’s best man, Adams, I 
deeply regret to find is very dangerously ill; Crispin and Low are laid up with 
jungle fever, and Lefroy and Downward are sickly and not good for much. The 
enclosed extract of a letter from Mr. Vaux, dated the 18th instant, gives a clear 
account of how matters stand on the division ; it is a lamentable and most un¬ 
business like condition in which we are placed, that we cannot meet such emer¬ 
gencies at once. I assure you the work languishes in consequence of the necessity 
we are in of making so much correspondence and applications for so simple a matter 
as an extra hand or two; Mr. Vaux has been, as I have been, for years in the 
service of contractors at home, and I can state as a fact, that men in such positions 
have full power to engage and to discharge as many assistants as they consider 
necessary for the purpose ; the circumstance of a man being placed in charge of a 
work implies, to my thinking, that he is capable of judging what aids are 
necessary in foremen and clerks; for myself, I hope you will not think it 
irrelevant if I mention that I was the contractor’s sole manager and engineer 
on the great dock works at Birkenhead, unquestionably one of the greatest and 
most important public works in England. The arranging and settling the num¬ 
ber and pay of my own foremen, gaugers, clerks, &c., as a matter of course, fell 
on my shoulders, and with it the responsibility thereof. You maybe well assured 
that sluggishness and slothfulness were not tolerated there, nor were there more 
hands appointed than the work required. A superfluity of overlookers being, as 
it is well known, almost as bad as a deficiency of them. Here, I am not aware 
that I have the power of appointing a man on 20 rupees a month, without formal 
representation ol the why and wherefore. Doubtless there may be found places 
on the railway, and I could name several long lengths of easy work, where 
the delays for requisitions for necessary things are little or almost unappreciable ; 
but in such places as the Rajmahal middle division, in the Haliohur Division, 
and also in the Ghogah Valley, between Bhaugulpore and Colgong, contingencies 
arise, and will arise, which must be met boldly and promptly, without reference 
to any authorities except those on the spot. At present, we have Mr. Cockburn’s 
operations at the Haliohur almost paralyzed, because he has no leave to put up 
bungalows for his people about him, who are huddled in a tent and a ruinous mat 
bungalow, the indent for the bungalows having been disallowed pending a return 
of the whole required over nearly 300 miles, which it is next to impracticable to 
make for some time to come, with any accuracy. I could continue instances to 
the same purpose throughout the works; the above, however, will suffice to show 
you, in connexion with former letters, how we are situated, and the wearisome 
delays under which we suffer; and will also prove that responsibility as to time, 
in completing any part of the railway, cannot rest with any of the railway com¬ 
pany’s engineers.” 

640. Have many letters similar to that been received from engineers in India ^ 
—Yes; there are several letters of the same kind. 

641. Which have been received lately?—Not lately; this is the last letter of 
the kind. 

642. Can 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 45 

642. Can you furnish us with copies of any other letters, of a similar import to 
that which you have just read, received from engineers in India upon the subject 
of Government interference, within the last two years ?—I can do so. 

643. Did you, on the receipt of that letter, make any representation to the 
Board of Directors on the subject? —It was arranged at our Board, at which it was 
read, that a copy of it should be sent, as a matter of record, to the Board of Di¬ 
rectors; but, since the receipt of it, we hear that the assistance asked for has been 
conceded ; in the meantime, we shall send it to the Court, that they may see how 
matters are actually conducted. 

644. Mr. Stephenson .] The Court, as I understand, has not assented to the 
assistance which Mr. Turnbull originally applied for?—They have not; Mr. 
Turnbull asked for a certain amount of assistance; the Government of India said 
it was excessive, without saying what it ought to be; but the Court concurred 
with us in adding 10 per cent. 

645. Mr. H. A . Bruce.] When Mr. Turnbull applied for authority to build 
bungalows to shelter his contractors and workmen, the answer you sav was, 
" Send us a report of how many will be required over the whole district” ?—Over 
300 miles before they would give authority to build one. 

646. Mr. T. G. Baring."] Did the railway company bring their complaint before 
the East India Company?—These complaints have been received by the last mail, 
or the one preceding. 

647. I thought you said you had sent a copy of that letter to the East India 
Company?—We intend to do so. 

648. Then you have not represented those circumstances to the East India 
Company?—Only so far as the fact may have been communicated through the 
ex officio director who sits at our board. 

649. Mr. Crawford .] The letter you have read is addressed by Mr. Turnbull, 
the chief engineer, to the Company’s agent at Calcutta?—Yes. 

650. And it is forwarded by the agent at Calcutta to the Board in this country, 
for their information ?—Yes. 

6,51. What is the ordinary practice with regard to the transmission of ietters, 
and copies of letters and reports from India to this country?—Every month we 
receive copies of all important correspondence which takes place between our 
agent in India and the Government officers. 

652. Those are submitted to the perusal of the members of the Board ?— 
Weekly. 

653. And considered separately?—Such parts of them as are considered 
necessary, are taken into consideration. 

654. Sufficient time has not elapsed, I presume, for the consideration of that 
letter ?—No. 

655. How long has it been in your possession ?—I cannot tell without referring; 
I think it came here the mail before last. 

656. Sir James Melvill, as ex officio director sitting at the Board, is cognizant 
of all these matters of complaint or representations on the part of the agent at 
Calcutta to the Board here ? —Sir James Melvill knows precisely all that we 
know on the subject. 

657. Mr. Dauby Seymour.'] He saw the letter?—He saw the letter. 

638. Mr. Crawford.] The Board, as I understand, has been in the habit of 
communicating all these matters to Sir James Melvill, with the full knowledge 
that he made representations upon them to his superiors?— Under the impression 
that he did so. 

659. It is also the practice of the Board, I understand you to say, to make 
specific representations to the India House by way of letter, upon matters requiring 
immediate and serious attention ?-r—Yes. 

660. Mr. Danby Seymour.] Mr.Turnbulls report upon the state of the rail¬ 
way, received some time ago in this country, was not, I believe, considered 
satisfactory by the authorities ?—Not with reference to the brick-work. 

661. Or as to the general delay in the completion of the line to Rajmahal ?— 
Certainly not. 

662. The sudden demand for an addition of 25 per cent, to the number of 
agents was rather a large one to come at once, was it not?—If you were to read 
Mr. Turnbull’s explanation, I do not think you would consider the demand at all 
excessive. 

0.61. f 3 


Mr. D. I. Noad. 
C May 1858. 


663. How 


46 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. D. I. Noad. 


6 May 1858. 


663. How was it that the demand was not made years ago ?—Because the 
work had not fallen into our hands. 

664. Your people must have known whether the contractors were able to per¬ 
form their contracts or not; I suppose they did not fail all at once?—'They did 
not fail all at once; but it is much easier to get into a contract than to get out of 
one, and there were very difficult negotiations going forward with contractors, 
which, as it happened, were all brought to a point almost simultaneously. 

665. Do you not think you ought to have been better acquainted with the 
state of things than you were?—Upon the question of the brick-work, I think we 
ought to have been better informed, and we have written to say so. 

666. Ought you not to have been better informed also upon the subject of 
earthworks?—No ; I think we knew all we wanted to know. 

667. I think something has been said about a refusal to sanction estimates for 
the erection of bungalows for the engineers ?—That is mentioned in the letter 
that 1 have read. 

668. Are you not aware that the estimates for bungalows for engineers have 
appeared excessive to the authorities on many occasions ?—They may have 
appeared excessive to the authorities, but it does not follow that therefore they 
were excessive. 

669. Are you not aware that on many railways in this country there was an 
enormous outlay for stations and otherwise, which is not allowed now ?—I think 
railways are constructed with much greater economy than they were. 

670. Do you not think that the Government ought to exercise proper super¬ 
vision, when the engagements are at a distance from this country, when of course 
supervision is more difficult ?—Yes ; but I think that supervision should be carried 
out by persons competent to form an opinion. 

671. Those who guarantee the money must ultimately have the judgment, must 
they not, as to what is excessive and what is not; they must have a check upon 
the expenditure ?—Hence, their responsibility, I think. 

672. Is it not the case that the railway company is constantly wishing for an 
increased expenditure, which has been as constantly refused, to a certain extent ? 
—The railway company has been under the necessity of applying, from first to last, 
for an increased expenditure, because the expenditure sanctioned by the Govern¬ 
ment has never been sufficient for the purposes of the company ; there has been 
a system of cheese-paring, which is most prejudicial to the carrying out and 
execution of the works. 

673. Chairman.'] With reference to the failure of the contractors, have you any 
reason for supposing that the almost simultaneous failure of such a large, number 
of contractors arose from apprehension arising in their minds caused by the state 
of the country ?—I think that has been an element; but I think the real cause is 
found in the fact, that they never were competent to carry on the works they 
undertook. 

674. Previously to your entering into these important contracts with the con¬ 
tractors, had you taken all the necessary steps to ascertain their competency to 
fulfil their engagements?—Those steps ought, no doubt, to have been taken by 
our agents in India. 

675. Were the names of those contractors furnished to you by the Government 
authorities in India ?—I cannot say. 

676. How could we obtain that information ?—If Sir Macdonald Stephenson 
were examined, he would probably be able to give you information upon that 
point. 

677. Were these contracts, when first made with these parties, made with the 
sanction of the Government authorities?—Distinctly. 

678. Mr. Stephenson.] With reference to the increase necessary in the engi¬ 
neering staff, after the contracts had been transferred to your hands, would a fair 
per-centage of the superintendence which had been employed by the contractor 
himself in carrying on his works, have been a reasonable addition to the former 
engineering staff for carrying on the works ?—I understand the question to be. 
whether, supposing we had adopted the contractor’s staff, that would not have 
given us all the assistance we required ; my reply to that is, that one of our 
greatest causes of complaint against the contractors has been throughout the w ant 
of a sufficient number of European superintendents. 

679. You think the contractors themselves had an insufficient amount of super¬ 
intendence ?—No doubt. 


680. And 



47 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

680. And therefore if you had made an estimate of the amount of superinten¬ 
dence employed by the contractors that would have fallen short of the number 
which the engineers ought to have added to their establishment ?—It would. 

681. Chairman.] As the Government authorities undertook to control and 
supervise the proceedings, do you not consider that it was part of their duty to 
satisfy themselves of the capability and character of the contractors to perform' 
their engagement?—Seeing how the supervision is carried out, I think that in all 
matters relating to these contracts, relating to any matters whatever in India, the 
Government must be jointly responsible with the agents. I think, in fact, that the 
only use to be derived from supervision is a check upon our agents, and if the 
Government assent, as a matter of course, to their proceedings, they must be held 
jointly responsible. We find they do not hesitate to exercise supervision upon 
trivial matters which had better be left alone. 

682. Mr. Danby Seymour.] Do you mean that the Government is to bear half 
the loss if a contractor fails r—No; I do not mean that they should be pecuniarily 
liable. 

683. Chairman.] I understand you are not at liberty to enter into contracts 
with any persons resident out there, without the sanction of the Government ?— 
No. 

684. Mr. Danby Seymour.] When the Government refused to sanction an 
increase of 25 per cent, to the number of agents, I believe they gave you leave to 
send out Mr. Rendel to ascertain how matters stood out there ?—The Court never 
refused to sanction the additional 25 per cent. It was the Government of India 
which refused ; but they omitted to say what they would sanction. We discussed 
the question at our Board, and the Court at once agreed to add 10 per cent. 

685. Did they not authorise you to send out Mr. Rendel?—Not in reference 
to the question of staff; his mission was chiefly upon the question of bricks. 

686. The question of bricks seems to me to be mixed up with the whole con¬ 
struction of the railway, which was delayed in an unsatisfactory manner; do you 
not think that the refusal of the Government of India to sanction that 25 per cent, 
was equivalent to saying that they did not approve of the manner in which the 
works were going on ?—I do not take that view of it. 

687. Was not the mission of Mr. Rendel to report how the railway was going 
on r—No ; his mission was to act in consultation with Mr. Turnbull and the 
Government officers, and to devise some means of doing away with the necessity 
of using such vast quantities of bricks. I hear from private information, that our 
engineer, Mr. Turnbull, has been long anxious to employ a much larger amount 
of iron in the construction of the works than was agreeable to the Government 
officers, and we thought that if Mr. Rendel went out with the latest experience from 
this country, he could convince the Government officers there that the use of iron to 
a much greater extent than they wished, would be of advantage, and would save a 
great deal of time. 

688. When you found that your officers ought to have kept you better informed, 
what step did you take ?—We wrote out, complaining of the delay which had 
taken place in making their representation to us. 

689. Is that all that you did ?—That is all that we did. 

690. Did you write more than one letter r—We wrote two letters, I think. 

691. And you took no further steps?—We took no further steps, that I 
remember. 

692. When did you write those letters ?—It must be some three or four months 
ago. 

693. Not more than that?—No, I think not. 

694. The reports which were considered unsatisfactory came home last year, 
did they not?—They came home, I think, towards the latter end of the year. 

695. And you did not write your letters until three months ago ?—I am not quite 
clear as to the dates when those letters went; they were detained at the India 
House, I think, between one and two months. 

696. When you have works conducted at such a distance as that, you must 
make your authority well felt from here, must you not ?—I think so. 

697. And if your letters are disregarded, you must take rasher steps ?—That 
depends on the circumstances of the case. 

698. Mr. Crawford.] The sending of Mr. Rendel to India was a spontaneous 
act on the part of the Board, was it not?—Yes. 

699. They suggested that step, and enforced it by letter upon the consideration 
of the Court ?—Yes. 

0.61. f 4 700. Has 


Mr. D. I. Noad. 
6 May 1858. 





Mr. D. 1 . Noad. 


(3 May 1858. 


4S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

700. Has it, not been the practice of the authorities in India in all instances to 
recommend the use of brick in their constructions ?— \ es. 

701. Has it appeared to you that that use of bricks has been rather forced than 
otherwise?—Yes; I think it has. 

702. With regard to the supervision in India, supposing the railway authorities 
in India are in want of an increase to their establishment, as has been already dis¬ 
cussed, or of a supply of railway materials, or if they see occasion to raise the 
salary of any of their officers in India, which they cannot do without the consent 
of the Board in England, what is the step taken to procure the carrying out of 
their wishes by the Board in this country ?—The chief engineer first sends an 
indent for whatever he may require, to our agent in Calcutta; the agent sends it 
to the consulting engineer to the Government; the consulting engineer to the 
Government sends it to the Secretary of Government in the Public Works Depart¬ 
ment; it is then submitted to the council, and it is ultimately decided on by the 
council, and comes back to us through the same channels. If it is a question of 
supply from England, it goes to the Board ; and the Board, until very recently, had 
to send it to the Court; the Court kept it perhaps from 10 days to 30 days, and 
it then came back to the Board and was acted upon. 

703. The railw ay authorities have no power to increase the salary of any officer 
in India, without the sanction of the Board here ?—No. 

704. Before the sanction of the Board is given here, it is necessary that their 
recommendation to increase the salary should be concurred in by the Government 
of India?—Yes. 

705. In the same way, I believe, nothing whatever can be sent out to India, 
upon the requisition of the railway authorities in India, without the written assent 
and concurrence of the Governor-General of India in Council?—No. 

706. Mr. D. Seymour .] When you say that the Railway Board has no 
authority to increase the salary of any officers, are you aware that that same 
regulation exists with the Governor-General in Council, and that none of the 
Governments in India have any power to increase the salary of any officer out 
there, without the consent of the home authorities ?—I w r as not aware of that. 

707. And that that rule was agreed upon in consequence of the great increase 
of expenditure when the Government out there had the powder of increasing the 
salaries ?—That w as with reference to the Government of India. 

708. Mr. Ii. A. B?'uce.] Do you think that all the regulations as to the 
increase of salaries in the Government of India should be transferred to the 
management of the railway company ?—Quite the contrary. 

709. Mr. T. G. Baring .] You admit the necessity of Government super¬ 
vision, but you object to the minute details?—l object to the mode in which it 
is carried on ; I think the supervision is most desirable, and ought to be most 
advantageous. 

710. Can you give the Committee a case of the same kind as that you have 
referred to, in which answers have been given by the Government engineer ?— 
No doubt I shall be able to provide you with some such instances. 

711. The statement of Mr. Turnbull is his own view of the subject; but I should 
like to have a case in which we could see the views of the Government engineer? 
—This statement of Mr. Turnbull is a statement of fact, as to the bungalow's; 
he points out the inconvenience to the Government, and no view of the Government 
engineer could do away with the inconvenience that must be obvious, namely, that 
a man is to be kept out of his house until the Government know how many 
houses are wanted over an area of 300 miles. 

712. Might it not make a difference in the opinion to be formed on that matter, 
if we first ascertain the view of the Government in requiring that return?—I do 
not think it w r ould make any difference in the question of fact; I have no doubt 
the reason of the return being called for, was to see what expense we proposed 
to enter upon in completing these bungalows over the 300 miles. Government 
were doubtless anxious to see what the whole establishment would cost before 
sanctioning any part of it. 

713. Can you bring before us a case in which appear answers given by the 
Government officers to the objections of your engineer ?—I will do so. 

714. You say that everyone of your engineers arrives in India with the belief 
that his practical knowledge is superior to that of the military engineers r—I have 
110 doubt of it. 

715. Are vou aware of the services in which Government engineers in India 

are 



49 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

are employed ?->—No. Allow me to say, I do not assert the superiority of our 
engineers over the engineers of the Government in India, but I say the engineers 
themselves entertain that belief. 

716. Do you consider that your engineers go to India with a knowledge of the 
country and the climate ?—No, I do not; I think they are wanting in that. 

717. Would not the Government engineers possibly render them great assistance 
upon these points ?—I think they ought to do so. 

718. You think they would be capable of rendering assistance with regard to 
local peculiarities?—I think they ought to be capable. 

719. As I understand, you do not know whether they are or are not?—I have 
no means of giving an opinion. 

720. Are you aware that military engineers in India are employed in civil 
engineering?—I know they are in some cases. 

721. Then the comparison which an engineer may make between himself’and a 
military engineer may not be a correct one?—Not to its full extent. 

722. Mr. Crawford.] Is there not a vast difference between railway engineer¬ 
ing and ordinary civil engineering?—I do not think there is anything so difficult 
in railway construction that any civil engineer should hesitate to undertake it. 

723. Mr. D. Seymour.] Are you an engineer yourself ?—No. 

724. Mr. T. G. Baring .] Have you ever heard of any bridges of great magni¬ 
tude made by military engineers in India?—No doubt; but I have heard doubts 
expressed whether they will bear a railway train. 

725. You have heard that military engineers of the Government of India have 
been employed in carrying out civil works ?—No doubt they have. 

726. Mr. H. A. Bruce.'] You say that differences of opinion sometimes arise 
between civil engineers and Government engineers ?—Yes. 

727. Have you known many cases in which the Government officers have been 
persuaded to reconsider their opinions and to withdraw their objections?—I can 
scarcely call to mind any one case. 

728. Has there been much delay in consequence of that clashing of opinion? 
—I do not think there has been any practical delay. 

729. With reference to the increase of expenditure, 1 gather from a question 
put to you by an Honourable Member that many applications have been made by 
the railway company for authority to increase their expenditure, but that that has 
been refused, or diminished ?—Some applications which have been made to the 
Court have been modified. 

730. Have you ever heard of a railway in England which has been constructed 
without an increase over the original estimates?—No. 

731. Taking into consideration the nature of India, its great rivers, its marshy 
soil, and its hot climate, is it not probable that the actual expenditure would in 
many cases vary from the original estimate, even to a greater extent than it would 
in England ?—I think it very possible ; but so far as the East India Railway Com¬ 
pany is concerned, I have no doubt of the line being constructed within the 
estimate. 

732. On the whole?—On the whole, very much within the estimate. 

733. Has any delay in the construction of the railway arisen from the refusal 
of the Government to sanction the application for increased expenditure?—I 
think it probable that delay will have been caused by the refusal of the Govern¬ 
ment to sanction Mr. Turnbull’s last indent for assistance. 

734. Can you state whether the Government engineers appointed to supervise 
the proceedings of the East India Railway have had any experience in constructing 
railways ?—I am not aware that they have, but I cannot say that they have not. 

735. Looking to the fact that the Government have power under the terms of 
the contract to sanction every contract, ought not the Government, in your opinion, 
to satisfy themselves in all cases of the power of the contractors in India to fulfil 
their engagements before giving them sanction?—I think you could scarcely 
expect the Government to do that. 

736. Mr. Danby Seymour.] You say you think the supervisions are too minute? 
—Yes. 

737. What system would you propose instead of that minute supervision?—I 
think you will find that I have already given my opinion upon that point. 

738. Would you have works constructed then up to a certain point?—I would 
have the estimate for every particular work agreed upon between our officers and 
the officers of the Government; and then I would have the construction of the 
works themselves in the hands of the railway officers. 

0.61. G 


739. But 



50 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. D. 1 . Noacl. 


6 May 1858. 


Mr. D. I. Noad. 


io May 1858. 


739. But subject to the inspection afterwards by some officer appointed by the 
Government ?—When finished. 

740. By whom shall that inspection be conducted ?—That inspection should 
be conducted, no doubt, by officers appointed by the Government. 

741. Would it be satisfactory to the railway company that the inspecting 
officer should be a military engineer?—The railway company, as a company, has 
never objected to the appointment of a military engineer. 


Lunae , 10° die Mail , 1858 . 


MEMBERS PRESENT. 


Hon. H. G. Liddell. 
Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. Cheetham. 

Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. Cumming Bruce. 


Mr. H. A. Bruce. 
Mr. Stephenson. 

Mr. Danhy Seymour. 
Colonel Sykes. 


Hon. H. G. LIDDELL, in the Ciiatr. 


Mr. j David Lines Noad , called in ; and further Examined. 

742. Chairman .] ON your last examination you were asked some questions 
with reference to the difficulty you had met with in procuring bricks, and the 
Committee inquired particularly when you first received any intimation from 
your engineer on the subject. Can you state more precisely the date of your 
engineer’s report, and when you received it?—Mr. Turnbull’s report is dated the 
3d of July 1857; it arrived here about the 18th of August 1857, and it was 
referred to the consulting engineers of the company on the 20th of August; we 
received their report on the ,5th of September, and we sent that report to the 
Court on the 9th of September, making certain suggestions, and urging an im¬ 
mediate reply ; we received the reply on the 22d of October, agreeing to our 
suggestions, and suggesting that an explanation should be required from our 
engineer as to the cause of his representations on the subject being so long delayed ; 
a draft letter was submitted to our Board on that subject on the 3d of November, 
and was ultimately approved by the Court on the 18th of December ; when I say 
it was approved, it was approved generally; but an alteration was suggested, 
and the letter was sent out on the 22d of December. 

743. What did you do on the subject ?—We proposed to the Court in our 
letter the propriety of considering the question whether we could not substitute 
iron in the superstructure of some of these bridges, with very great advantage, in 
order to save time ; that view the Court acquiesced in, and agreed to it, as I say, in 
the letter dated 22d of October. This letter suggested that we should require 
an explanation from our engineer of the delay that had occurred in representing 
the difficulties that existed. 

744. I understand that you received the ultimate reply from the Court on the 
18th of December?—The whole question was before the Court in one shape or 
another nearly the entire interval between the 9th of September and the 18th of 
December. 

745. What was the effect of the ultimate reply of the Court on that question ? 
What did you do?—We wrote out immediately to our engineer, or rather to our 
agent, requesting an explanation of the delay which had taken place in repre¬ 
senting the circumstances ; the Court suggested an alteration in that letter, which 
implied to our minds a censure, which we did not consider fair to our officers 
pending the receipt of the explanation which we had written for, and although, 
to save time, we sent the letter out by the mail of the 22d of December, 
we wrote to the Court in January, stating that the letter did not correctly repre¬ 
sent the sentiments of the Board on the subject. In the meantime, Mr. Mea¬ 
dows Ren del proceeded to India to consult with Mr. Turnbull as to the best way 
of meeting the difficulty by the use of iron girders, a certain number of which 
were put in hand at once, and some of them have since been shipped. 

746- Do you consider that the delay of which you have just spoken was neces¬ 
sary ?—No ; I think that the question should have been finally disposed of upon 
receipt of the report of our consulting engineer, dated 5th of September. 

747- Instead 








SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 5, 

747. Instead of which a period of very nearly four months elapsed before the 
question was finally settled ?—Yes, before the question was finally disposed of. 

748. To revert to the supervision in India, which we went into at some length the 
other day ; you were asked to produce to the Committee copies of any important 
correspondence between your officers and the Government which had been com¬ 
pleted, in order that the Committee might see the grounds upom which the 
Government acted. Have you any correspondence with you which will show 
that r—I have sent tor some papers, which I will hand in. 

749. Mr. Crawford.'] How is the Company represented in India?—By an 
agent appointed by the Board in London. 

750. Does he exercise a superintendence over the whole of the Company’s 
affairs in India ?—Over the whole generally. 

751. Will you describe in general terms what his duties are?—He represents 
in fact the Board, and has almost absolute power to decide upon every question 
submitted to him. 

752. I suppose he makes a practice of referring all matters of important principle 
to this country ?—There are certain points in the course of his management which 
he considers it necessary to reserve himself upon, and in those cases lie refers to 
the Board. 

753. Do you not think his duties will be exceedingly heavy when you enter 
upon the construction of the Jubbulpore line ?—Undoubtedly ; too much so. 

754. Have the company any plan in view for relieving him of the charge 0 
duties so heavy as those ?—I think the company have an idea of proposing that 
there should be a second agent in the upper provinces. 

755. The company in this country does not correspond directly, does it, with 
its officers in India ?—No; all correspondence goes through the agent of the 
company at Calcutta. 

756. Name the agent ?—Air. Palmer. 

757. It is to Mr.Palmer, as the agent of the company, that all references are made 
by the chief engineer in each division of the company’s works in India ?—Yes. 

758. How many divisions have you ?—We shall shortly have three, but at 
present we have two, the upper and the lower provinces ; Mr. Turnbull being 
the engineer in the lower provinces, and Mr. Purser in the upper provinces. 

759. What is the line of demarcation between the upper and the lower pro¬ 
vinces ?—The river Kurumnassa. 

760. And both those officers, Mr. Turnbull in the lower provinces, and Mr. 
Purser in the upper provinces, correspond with Air. Palmer upon the affairs of 
the company which require Air. Palmer’s superintendence ?—Yes. 

761. And any communications which the engineers have to make to the com¬ 
pany in this country pass through Mr. Palmer in the first instance?—Yes. 

762. And are forwarded by him to the Board here ?—Yes. 

763. The Board, as I understand, replies to those officers through Air. Palmer ?• 
—Yes. 

764. Have you had any instance brought to your notice by the agents of what 
might be considered to be undue interference, or the excessive exercise of autho¬ 
rity, on the part of the consulting engineer to the Government in India, in refe¬ 
rence to the railway matters under his charge ?—We have recently received a 
letter from Air. Palmer, complaining that in a particular instance he could not 
enter into negotiations for the purchase of a quantity of timber without giving so 
much detailed information as would have prevented his carrying the negotiations 
into effect. I have a copy of that letter, which, with the permission of the Com¬ 
mittee, I will read. We first have a memorandum by the deputy consulting 
engineer of the Government, Captain Crommelin, dated 3d of February, which 
appears to be made on some indent to the Government by Mr. Palmer, and it is 
to this effect:—“ The undersigned would prefer submitting indent, No. A 334, 
dated 2d instant, to Government in a more complete form. He requests, there¬ 
fore, that some explanation may be furnished of the purposes for which the 
timber is required. The tender of the contractor should also be furnished, in 
which should be specified the terms of delivery, and the general particulars 
regarding size, nature, and quality of the timber.” Air. Palmer replies, in a 
letter, dated 9th of February,—“ I have the honour to acknowledge your memo¬ 
randum, No. 177, of February 3d, requesting that some explanation may be fur¬ 
nished of the purposes for which indent. No. A 334, has been submitted for 
the purchase of timber, and calling for the contractor’s tender, in which I am 
informed that the terms of delivery, and the general particulars regarding the size,. 

0.61. " g 2 nature,, 


Mr. D. 1 . Noad 


10 May 18580 





52 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Ir. D. I. Noad. 


10 May 1858. 


nature, and quality of the timber should be specified. If it be the wish of the 
Supreme Government that these details and particulars should all be furnished, 
of course such an arrangement must in fyture be carried out. That the Govern¬ 
ment are entitled to be furnished with such details, I do not of course question, 
but I submit that no such system was ever contemplated by the East India Com¬ 
pany when the contract was made, and I am fully aware that the railway com¬ 
pany never anticipated so obstructive a system of carrying on the works. It is to 
be supposed that the officers appointed by the company are fully capable of 
conducting their business without such minute supervision, and I submit that the 
practice now adopted is conducive to no end save that of giving additional trouble 
to the consulting engineer, and obstructing the operations of the company. In 
the present instance I am informed by the storekeeper that he will shortly require 
a supply of timber which may be appropriated to carriage building, or to any 
other purpose that may be required, and I take the opportunity of a Rangoon 
timber merchant’s presence in Calcutta to endeavour to make arrangements for a 
supply at lower prices than it can be procured at in the market when suddenly 
required; but I need hardly point out to you that if the entertainment of 
a contractor, with a view to the reduction of prices, as has hitherto been 
done under indents S. B., S. H., T. B., and numberless others, is now to involve 
a correspondence which must be submitted first to myself, then to the 
deputy consulting engineer, then to the Secretary of Government, and by him to 
the Supreme Council, it will be better to abandon all hope of reducing the ex¬ 
penses by such means, and to indent only on emergencies, when the materials 
must be purchased in the market at any price. I submit that it is sufficient for 
the consulting engineer to know that the timber, of whatever it may be, is required 
for a legitimate railway purpose, and that the Company are paying a fair price, 
the details being left to the discretion of the agent, who is accountable to the 
company for all his acts. I should add that when a contract has been made, and 
the materials are in course of delivery, or the deliveries completed, not one single 
payment can be made without the previous audit of Government, by which means 
the main object of the Government control is secured, both to the shareholders and 
the East India Company. I have therefore the honour to request that my views 
in this respect may be laid before the Government of India for their consideration, 
whether, with a view to expediting the works, as well in the engineering as in the 
agent’s office, a certain amount of responsibility might not judiciously be left to 
the railway company’s officers, whose experience in railway affairs, it may be 
assumed, are at least equal to those trifling details.” I hear since that the Govern¬ 
ment, upon that representation, sanctioned the purchase of the timber. 

765. Is the instance you have stated a solitary instance of what you conceive 
to be the undue interference by the Government in minute matters ?—I do not 
know that it is a solitary instance; but while Sir Macdonald Stevenson was agent 
to the company he scarcely ever sent over matters of this kind to England ; he 
disposed of them on the spot. In case of obstructions, he did not trouble the 
Board with the particulars, but disposed of them himself; Mr. Palmer appears to 
be taking a different course, and is furnishing the Board with all these instances. 

766. Can you state an instance of minute interference on the part of the 
Government with the proceedings of the engineers in other departments ?—Not 
from my own knowledge. 

767. What is the nature of the establishment subordinate to each chief engineer 
in his division?—There is a district engineer, a resident engineer, and two assist 
Ant engineers, with a given number of inspectors, according to the length of the 
line under the charge of the district engineer. 

768. That is in each district?—In each district; each district engineer has 
charge of so many miles, and a certain number of assistants in the shape of 
residents, sub-assistants, and inspectors, varying with the length of the district. 

769. Are they European ?—European. 

770. Selected and sent out from this country?—Yes. 

771. By whom ?—By the consulting engineers of the company, Messrs. Rendel. 

772. Who select them upon testimonials as to their fitness and efficiency ?— 
Upon testimonials and personal inquiries. 

773. Is the establishment of engineers in India fixed with reference only to 
the amount of work to be done, or have you any surplus number of engineers, so 
as to be able to fill up casual vacancies ?—In my opinion, we have never had a 
sufficient number of enjnneers. 

774. Do 



53 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

774 - Do you think that any delay has arisen from that circumstance ? —I believe 
great inconvenience has arisen from it. 

77 5 ' What is the principle that you go upon in the selection of your engineers 
in this country; do you send out men of enlarged experience in England to take 
highly responsible positions in India, or do you send out young men to rise through 
the ranks of the service ; in fact, is there a general system of promotion in vour 
engineering service, or do you supply men from this country as they are required 
for particular purposes ?—Originally we sent out a given number of men ; some 
w r ith larger experience than others, and some with less, and having once a com¬ 
plete staff within the limits which were then considered desirable, we have since 
appointed none but the youngest men, so that in fact there should be a complete 
system of promotion throughout the whole service ; and our instructions to our 
agent in India are never to send home for assistance when he can get it on the 
spot, and when he finds it in the staff which he has under his care. 

776. Tou mean, if he can find gentlemen of engineering experience in want of 
employment in India r—If for instance he should want a district engineer, he 
is recommended to take a district engineer out of the rank of resident engineers, 
or if he want a resident engineer, he should take him out of the rank of assis¬ 
tant engineers, and so on. 

777. By promotion?—By promotion. 

778. Under whose care are the works of the Soane Bridge r—Under the care of 
Mr. Power. 

779. Was he sent out specially for that purpose?—Exclusively for that 
purpose. 

780. And was he selected with reference purely to his ascertained experience 
in England in the construction of such works as that?—Yes. 

781. Generally speaking, has the railway company cause to be satisfied with 
the selection that has been made of their engineering officers ?—I think they have 
great reason to be satisfied; in fact I do not know a single instance in which 
they have not. 

782. That is, that in the number of officers sent out to India you have not any 
cause to complain of inefficiency of delinquency?—I cannot call to mind a single 
case at this moment. 

783. Do you think, so far as your information goes, that the Government is 
equally satisfied with them ?—I think so, decidedly. 

784. Mr. H. A. Bruce.'] You say that inconvenience arises from the inadequacv 
of the staff; must not something more than inconvenience arise ; must there not 
be delay and also great risk from insufficient inspection ?—I think, as circumstances 
have turned out, 110 actual delay of importance has arisen, because something has 
always intervened which really rendered an increase of the staff at the moment 
unnecessary. Of this I will give an instance; Mr. Turnbull indents for an increase 
of staff in November, and the matter is not ultimately settled until the following 
May, I think ; no doubt there might have been delay in the works in consequence, 
and probably there was up to May ; but it so happened that immediately after that 
the great mutiny occurred, so that had the staff been in existence, their services 
would have been useless. 

785. Did the mutiny greatly interfere with the progress of the line between 
Burdwan and Rajmahal ?—It interfered less upon that than on any other, but it 
did undoubtedly interfere with the district. 

786. Is Mr. Turnbull the only engineer who lias complained of an insufficient 
staff?—Mr. Purser in the upper provinces has complained also, but we have not 
the correspondence completed. 

787. Have his complaints been frequent ?—I cannot say that they have; one 
instance of importance has been brought to our notice. 

788. As I understand, the necessary result of inadequate inspection must be 
that either the duty must be slurred, or the work must be interrupted until a 
proper inspection can be made?—Exactly. 

789. I understand you to say that in all matters in which the consulting 
engineer can act upon his own authority every proper facility is given in expe¬ 
diting the business in India r—I think there is every desire to expedite the busi¬ 
ness, but I scarcely know of any instance in which the consulting engineer can act 
upon his own responsibility. 

790. That is, that in some cases he is obliged to refer to this country for autho¬ 
rity how to proceed?—I think in most cases he has to refer to the Secretary of 

0.61. g 3 State 


Mr. 2 ). I. Noad. 
10 May 1858. 


54 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. D. I. Noad. State in the Department of Public Works, and ultimately to the Supreme 
Council. 

10 May 1858. 791. That is in India? —In India. 

792. Has he not frequently to refer also to this country ?—The Government of 
India frequently refer to this country. 

793. In the class of cases to which we have adverted of an increased number 
of officers, I understand from your answers that he has no power himself to 
increase the number of officers, because that involves payment, and that it was 
necessary to refer to this country in order to get the necessary payment sanc¬ 
tioned r—It would be necessary ; the course would be that the consulting engi¬ 
neer would recommend a particular course to the Government of India, and the 
Government of India would refer it to the Court of Directors in this country. 

794. No increase, as I understand, however trivial, can take place in the staff 
without the matter going through the whole of the departments in India, and the 
whole of the departments in England ?—That is so, in the principal appointments 
in the staff. 

795. Chairman,] Have you found any difficulty in procuring labour in India in 
consequence of the mutiny ?—I cannot speak of the effects of the late mutiny, but 
we had great difficulty in procuring labour in the Rajmahal districts in conse¬ 
quence of the Sonthal insurrection. 

796. You are not able to speak, of your own knowledge, of the circumstances 
which have occurred over other parts of the liner—We resumed work on the 
main line in December last, and I have not heard since that there has been any 
difficulty in procuring labour. 

797. I wish to know whether you have any information upon the point as to 
whether Government competition, in the employment of labour upon the public 
works, operates prejudicially to the railway interest in their employment of labour? 
—Since the mutiny it has affected the rates which we are paying for labour, but 
I do not know that there has been any difficulty in procuring labour. 

798. Mr. Danhy Seymour.'] Have you in your district any of those tribes, men, 
women and children, who do nothing but work, and who take small contracts on 
railways?—I do not know that we have any women or children upon the works. 

799. Do you not think that to raise the wages in India would be a good thing 
for the population?—Undoubtedly, the population who receive the increased 
rate of pay must benefit by it. 

800. Do you not think that the quality of labour would be increased bv their 
being better paid ?—I do not think that. 

801. Do you think that the small pay they received until within the last year 
or two was sufficient for them to live upon ?—I think they were perfectly satisfied 
with the railway rates. 

802. Do you not think that they were under-fed, and therefore they were not 
such strong men as they would otherwise be, owing to the low rates of payment 
received by them ?—I do not think that that has been the case on our railway. 

803. Do you not think that the population of India generally is very much 
under-fed ?—I think they are in a very degraded state, generally speaking. 

804. Are you aware what they live upon ?—Not of my own knowledge. 

805. Are you not aware that when contractors have undertaken foreign rail¬ 
ways, the first thing they have done has been to increase the rates of pay, finding 
that they get far more work out of their workmen in consequence ?—I do not 
know that. 

806. Mr. Camming Bruce.] Do you know whether the wages paid by the rail¬ 
way companies in India are equal to or in excess of those "usually paid in the 
country ?—I think they are rather higher. 

807. Mr. Cheetham.] What is the rate per day that you pay them?—I think 
about 2 b d. or 3 d. per day. 

808. Do you know of your own knowledge what was the current rate in your 
district before your railway commenced r—I do not know what the current rate 
was; but I know it was less, because l know we have succeeded in collecting 
labour where others have failed. 

809. I presume that although the current rate which you pay is so much less 
than in this country, you are obliged to have an increased numher of workmen to 
do the same amount of work?—I think that three natives, or at all events four, 
would do as much work as a European navvy. 

810. Does your reply to my question assume a comparison between European 

labour 


55 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

labour in India or in this country ?—In this country; what I mean is, that for 
something like i o d. we get in India what we should have to pay for in this country 
from 3 s. to 3 s. 6 d. 

8.11. Chairman .] In consequence of that Government competition to which we 
have already referred, have any applications been made to the Government by 
the railway authorities to sanction increased rates of pay?—I believe notin 
reference to that competition. I should mention that there has recently been 
passed in India what is called an Impressment Act, under which, for the purposes 
of constructing barracks and other public buildings, I presume connected with the 
mutiny, the Government can impress labour. That Act has called forth some 
remonstrance from our agent, and I believe the Government have as far as 
possible remedied the inconvenience which was likely to arise from that Act; J 
believe they do not allow it to apply to labour employed on railway works. 

812. They have excluded that class of labour from the operation of the Act? 
—Yes. 

813. Mr. Cheethami] Were they obliged to resort to impressment because they 
paid less than you ?—I do not know that that was the cause. 

814. Do you know what rate of wages the Government pay?—I do not. 

815. Would not impressment imply that there was a scarcity of labour in that 
district?—Yes, or an indisposition to work under the Government. 

816. Chairman.] Have you any correspondence which has passed about the 
difficulties which have arisen in consequence of the passing of the Impressment 
Act?—I can furnish the Committee with what we have upon the subject. 

817. Mr. Danhy Seymour .] I believe the Government have always had im¬ 
pressed labour, have tney not, until recently?—I do not know ; I know they used 
to impress carts into their service, to our serious inconvenience, but they have 
recently given that up, and they have a much greater supply of means of trans¬ 
port than they ever had before. 

818. Chairman.] That was considered necessary for the conveyance of troops 
up the country ?—Yes, 

819. Mr. Danhy Seymour .] From the Punjaub down to Cape Comorin, has it 
not been customary to impress labour for making roads and other purposes ?—I 
do not know that. 

820. Mr. Cheetkam. ] Is it within your knowledge that since the impressment 
was abandoned they have had a much larger supply?—Since the impressment of 
carts was done away with, they have had, I understand, a better supply. 

821. Chairman .] Would not the fact of the Impressment Act having been 
passed by the Legislature show that the Government had not the right without 
obtaining a special Act to impress labour ?—I should imagine that they had not 
the right without the Act. 

822. Mr. Crawford.] Is there not a provision in that Act that it is only to 
take effect in particular districts to be specified?—Yes, 

823. Is it not a general Act r—It only applies where the districts are specially 
named. 

824. Without any alterations of the terms and conditions of the contracts 
entered into between the East India Company and the railway companies as to 
defining and fixing the limits of the general and local supervision, distinguishing 
the essential general control from the special and minute interference with minor 
details, and imposing at the same time upon your officers, and upon the Govern¬ 
ment officers, their respective degrees of jurisdiction, do you not think that rail¬ 
way works might be carried on with much greater rapidity, and even with greater 
efficiency than they are at present r—I think with greater rapidity, certainly. 

825. I will now ask you a question or two upon the subject of Government 
supervision in this country with reference to the railway Boards. What was the 
understanding of the railway companies originally as to the mode in which the 
Government supervision would be carried out in this country? — When we 
assented to that particular condition, and the terms and conditions upon which 
our contract was based, we were clearly under the belief that the Government 
would appoint an ex-officio director to sit at our Board, who would have absolute 
power to determine there and then all questions submitted to the Board. 

826. Who should not only have the power of veto, but, if I may use the phrase, 
the power of promotion at the same time ?—Every power. 

827. Have you been disappointed in that expectation?—Altogether; instead 
of that being the case, every proceeding of the Board, every proposition, in fact, 

0.61. 04 until 


Mr. D. I. Noud. 


10 May 1858. 



56 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mi. D. I. Noad. until very recently, had to he submitted to the Court of Directors, and we could 
not act until we received their sanction. 

10 May 1858. §28. Within a comparatively recent period, as I understand, larger powers of 

sanction have undoubtedly been given to the ex-officio director?—That is so. 

829. State precisely the extent of increased powers of sanction which Sir James 
Melvill has lately obtained ?—That change has taken place within the last two 
years. Prior to July 1855 we had to refer every tender for any description ot 
materials to the Court before we could accept it; but in July 1855 the Court gave 
the ex-officio director the power of deciding upon all tenders for materials the 
purchase of which had been previously sanctioned, and also of entering into con¬ 
tracts. Before entering into contracts up to that time, and indeed until March 
1858, we had to submit all indents from India, whether for men or for materials,, 
even when they had received the sanction of the Government of India, for the 
sanction of the Court of Directors. In March 1858 the powers of the ex-officio 
director were so enlarged as to enable him to sanction indents for materials so 
approved by the Government of India. These are the only two modifications 
which have been made. 

830. Can you specify any distinct cases of delay which have occurred in con¬ 
sequence of the ex-officio director not having the power of sanctioning the pro¬ 
ceedings of the railway company ?—I do not know that I can mention a distinct 
case of injury, but we have had very few decisions communicated by the Court 
under a month. I should say the average time occupied in the settlement of all 
important questions has been a month. 

831. Has it occasionally been considerably beyond that?—Yes. 

832. Can you state the maximum time taken to settle a question of that 
description ?—I can state a very recent case in which an important question was 
under consideration. 

833. Do you refer to the Jubbulpore contract?—I do. 

834. Did that contract involve a large expenditure of money ?—An expenditure 
of something like 2,000,000/. of money. 

835. What was the time taken to decide that question?—The first communi¬ 
cation received from the East India Company on that subject was the 2 d of 
May 18,56. 

836. Mr. Cumming Bruce .] When was any communication sent by you ?— 
A letter was sent to us by the East India Company, enclosing a copy of a letter 
from the Great India Peninsula Railway Company on the subject, and asking for 
the views of the East Indian Railway Board. That was on the 2d of May ; we 
sent in our views on the 5th of June; and on the 16th of October we received 
a letter from the Court, inquiring whether we were prepared to undertake the line 
to Jubbulpore, which was about the half of the junction line. 

837. Chairman.'] When you say the half junction line, to what points do you 
refer?—Mirazapore, and the point of junction with the Bombay line. 

838. Jubbulpore is about the half-way point between those two?—The question 
arose as to who should make the junction line between the two railways, and it 
was upon that, I think, that the Court asked our views. We were under the im¬ 
pression that we ought to have made that line as far as Asseerghur. I believe the 
matter was then referred to the Government of India, and the Government of 
India recommended that we should make the line as far as Jubbulpore, and that 
the Great India Peninsula Company should make it as far as Jubbulpore on the 
other side; and on the 16th of October 1856 we had a letter from the Court, 
asking whether we were prepared to undertake the execution of the line to Jub¬ 
bulpore, and on what terms. On the 11th of November 1856, after having 
submitted the matter to our shareholders at a general meeting, which we were 
obliged to do, we intimated our readiness to undertake it, upon the same terms 
generally as the main line ; that was on the 1 ith of November 1856 ; and on the 
5th of September 1857, we received the draft of the contract from the Court, 
which was ultimately agreed to, with some modifications, in March 1858. 

839. How far, in your opinion, is the system of Government supervision, as 
carried on through the medium of the ex-officio director, still imperfect?—I think 
the ex-officio director should possess, upon matters of every description, absolute 
power to decide at our Boards upon the course to be taken ; I should add, I do 
not think that on the part of the railway company we should ever have assented 
to the supervision at all, unless we had believed that that was to be the form in 
which it would be carried out. 

840. From 



57 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

840. From the experience you have had of the ability of the individual who Mr. D. I. 

sits at the Board, are you not of opinion that he is perfectly competent to- 

have that amount of power placed in his hands ?—There cannot be a doubt 10 May 
of it. 

841. Mr. Crawford.'] In point of fact, it should, in your opinion, be a matter of 
confidence between him and those whom he represents ?—Undoubtedly. 

842. Upon what understanding was it that you supposed, in the first instance, 
he would come to the Board with larger powers than he was found to possess ?— 

As far as the railway company was concerned, we never discussed the terms of 
the contract in any other view of the case. I think it is quite clear that the 
Court of Directors entertained the same view upon the subject as we did. 

843. With whom did you discuss the matter ?—With Mr. James Wilson. 

844. What led to the railway company discussing with Mr. James Wilson the 
terms of the contract ?•—I do not know how it arose ; but it appeared that we were 
more likely to come to a settlement upon the terms by direct personal communi¬ 
cation with an officer of the Board of Control than in a written correspondence 
with the Court. 

845. Did not that arise out of the fact that Mr. James Wilson suggested the 
means by which the railway company and the East India Company were relieved 
from the difficulty in which they were placed upon the question of dividend ?—I 
think so. 

846. The negotiation thereupon fell into his hands ?—I think so. 

847. By whom was the negotiation conducted on the part of the railway 
company?—By the late Mr. Aglionby, Mr. Freshfield, and myself. 

848. You understood in your communications with Mr. James Wilson that the 
ex-officio director was to be invested with larger powers then he was found to 
possess?—We never discussed it in any other view than that; it was never 
supposed by us that it was in contemplation, or could be in contemplation, to adopt 
any other course. 

849. Was it from the terms of the contract itself that you derived the opinion 
that his powers would be larger ?—No ; it was prior to the contract itself. We 
always considered that the particular clause in the contract referring to this 
question was what the* lawyers would call specially pleaded. 

850. Will you describe, in general terms, the manner in which the business of 
the railway company is conducted in this country; that is to say, how the 
authority of the ex-officio director is exercised ?—The ex-officio director, with the 
exception of those cases in which the modification has taken place, really exercises 
no authority beyond his moral influence, or the influence of any other director. 

851. He merely sits at the Board, and takes part in the business which other 
members of the Board would do?—Precisely. 

852. All the payments of the railway company are made, I presume, under 
the authority of the Board ?—Every payment. 

853. Can you make any payment without the sanction of the East India Com¬ 
pany ?—No. 

854. It is not in the power of the railway company to pay money without the 
East India Company becoming aware of the fact?—No. 

855. Strictly speaking, I think the ex-officio director is a consenting party to 
all payments that are made ?—He is, and so is the Court subsequently. 

856. Do you apply to the Court for money for special purposes ?—We apply 
regularly every week for money for all purposes, specifying what each particular 
sum is intended for, and under what contract it is to be paid. 

857. Chairman .] Then in fact there is practically an audit of your payments 
every week?—There is. 

858. Mr. Cheetham.] These payments, I presume, have to be made out of 
the treasury of the Company?—We apply every week for a given sum of money, 
specifying the purpose for which it is required ; that sum is handed over to us 
by warrant, and we make the individual payments. 

859. Air. Crawford. ] You receive a warrant transferring a sum to your credit 
at your banker’s ?— \ es. 

860. And you make your payments by passing cheques against your account 
at the banker’s?—Yes. 

861. These cheques, I suppose, are all signed at the Board?—Every cheque. 

862. Chairman.] Does not that, in fact, constitute a complete power of 
control over the whole of your expenditure ?—Without the slightest doubt. 

0.61. H 863. Mr. 


Noad. 


1858. 



r,s 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mi. D. I. Noad. 8()3* Mr. Gumming Bruce.] The Chairman asked you to state some particular 

- case in which the system, as at present carried on, was productive of delay, and 

10 Ma}' 1858. you stated a case in which the consideration of a minute appeared to have 
occupied from the 2d of May until the 5th of June, after you had sent in 
certain proposals to the directors; and you say that you consider that was an 
unnecessary delay. Can you show how long the proposal had been under the 
consideration of your own Board of Directors before you forwarded it ?—Sup¬ 
posing indents were received by the mail to-day from India, for 1,000 tons of 
coal, or any other material, they would be submitted to our Board to-morrow, and 
would go before the Court to-morrow afternoon, when the probabilities are that 
we should have an answer in a month ; that has been the system until quite lately. 

864. Mr. Crawford.] Have you any return by you of the dates on which you 
have made applications upon various matters to the Court of Directors by letter, 
and the dates also on which you have received replies thereto?—1 have a return 
of that nature, but it is a very lengthy affair. 

865. Does it comprise every communication that has been made to the Court 
of Directors from the commencement of your proceedings as a Board 7 —I think 
it comprises nearly the whole of them. 

866. State the result of it?—The result would be such as I have stated, that 
there is an average of about a month. 

867. With respect to the proceedings of the Railway Company, what time 
elapses from the day you send in the minutes of the Board to the East India 
Company, for their information, before you receive back an expression of opinion 
on the part of the Court with reference to the minutes?—The form in which the 
letter comes is that the proceedings recorded do not appear to call for any remark. 

868. Mr. Cumming Bruce.] With regard to the month’s delay of which you 
have spoken, I should like to know whether you can state that any practical real 
grievance or prejudicial delay has been occasioned by the time taken to consider 
these matters?—I think it has been more by good luck than good manage¬ 
ment that that has not been the case; I do not know that I could mention any 
injury that we have received, but it is very possible to conceive it; for instance, 
markets fluctuate very much in a month, and the effect of a month’s delay in die 
purchase of materials might be very serious. 

869. Mr. Crawford.] Would you consider yourself justified in proceeding upon 
any resolution of the Board on the minutes until you receive from the Court their 
approval of those minutes?—Strictly speaking, under the terms of the contract, 
probably we ought not, but we do. 

870. You probably raise the question by a separate letter?—Upon any im¬ 
portant subject we should do so. 

871. Mr. H. A. Brucc.] You stated that, in vour opinion, the delay would be 
very much prevented, and the proceedings of the railway company very much 
simplified, if the ex-officio director had the power of deciding upon the questions 
submitted at the Board ?—Yes. 

872. He representing there the East India Company, and, I presume, the Board 
of Control ?— I think so, clearly. 

873. Is it your opinion that he should decide without referring to those two 
Boards ?—Generally; lie doubtless would reserve himself upon points that he 
thought too important for his own decision. 

874. Have either the East India Company or the Board of Control any con¬ 
sulting engineer in this country to whom they refer questions connected with your 
railway?—I do not think they have. 

875. Are you of opinion that if they had some authorised officer corresponding 
to the officer of that name who represents the Government in India, much of 
the delay would be prevented ?—No ; I do not think that that would be a desirable 
arrangement. 

876. Who in this country has the control and choice of the materials of which 
you make your engines, and so on ?—Our consulting engineers. 

877. Does the East India Company or the Board of Control ever interfere? — 
They never have interfered with us. 

878. Chairman.] To whom are the plans, sections, and specifications referred 
in this country?—They never have been referred ; all the contracts for works have 
been entered into in India. 

879. Mr. H. A. Bruce.] The contracts for materials are entered into in this 
country, and, so far as I understand from you, no sort of criticism or control is 

exercised 



59 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

exercised by either the Board of Control or the East India Company?—The Mr. D. I. Koad. 

purchase being once sanctioned and the tender accepted, the matter is left en-- 

tirely in the hands of the railway company. 10 May 1858. 

880. Mr. Danby Seymour .] When was the office of ex-officio director esta¬ 
blished?—In August 1849. 

881. What was the salary attached to it ?—We pay no salary. 

882. And you are not aware what the salary is?—No. 

883. You are not aware whether the Board of Control have thought that some 
person ought to he appointed to that office who could give his whole time to it?— 

I do not know at all the course that the discussion took. 

884. Sir James Melvill was, I believe, the Secretary of the East India Com¬ 
pany in all its departments at that time ?—He was. 

8S5. That I believe was a very onerous office ?—I should think so. 

886. He has resigned, 1 believe, within the last two months?—Yes, 

S87. Since that time his powers have been increased as ex-officio director, and 
more latitude has been given to him?—In one instance. 

888. Generally he has the power of sanctioning what he had not before ?—He 
has only one additional power; he had some additional power conferred upon 
him lately, but the principal modification was in July 1855; the last alteration 
was important, certainly, because it saves the necessity of referring indents to the 
Court of Directors. This last alteration was made since the change of Govern¬ 
ment. 

889. Ar.d since he gave up his appointment of secretary ?—I do not know 
exactly when he gave up his appointment. 

890. Are you not aware that he gave it up about two months ago?—I think 
about that time ; the alterations in his powers took place about the 25th of March. 

891. Was not that about the time that he gave up his office of secretary ?—It 
would be about, I think, the middle of February that he resigned. 

892. When you. say that in important matters there is an average delay of 
about one month, I suppose that in ordinary matters the delay is much less than 
a month ?—I think the average is about a month. 

893. I am speaking merely of the minutes?—Yes. 

894. They never arrive in less than a month ?—Very seldom ; sometimes a few 
days under, and sametimes a few days over 

895. Who is your consulting engineer?—Messrs. Rendel. 

896. You do not think it expedient to have another consulting engineer, do 
you ?—No. 

897. On the part of the Government?—No. 

898. You think it would create unnecessary delay ?—I think so. 

899. Mr. Crawford.'] Who is the consulting engineer to the Great Indian 
Peninsula Railway Company ?—Mr. Robert Stephenson. 

900. Mr. Danby Seymour.] Which do you think is the best way of construct¬ 
ing railways, to advertise for large contractors in this country or in India, or to do 
the work by your own engineers out there ?—We have never tried the plan of 
advertising in this country tor contracts, but I think it would be desirable to 
make the experiment. 

qoi. Have you ever advertised for contractors in this country ?—No. 

902. 1 believe other companies have done so?—The Great India Peninsula 
Company have done so, I think. 

903. Did you ever apply to a large English contractor to undertake the con¬ 
struction of your railway ?—-Yes, we did, as far back as 1849. 

Q04. What was the objection of your contractor to undertaking it?—In a par¬ 
ticular case, independently of the case I referred to in my evidence the other day, 
that of Mr. Jackson, whose tender we were not allowed to accept, Mr. Brassey, 
who is a large contractor, sent out a confidential agent to investigate the question. 

I think he sent out a Mr. Ballard. I believe when he became aware ot the way 
in which the supervision on the part of the Government was to be exercised, he 
dissuaded Mr. Brassey from entering into any such contract, or entertaining the 
subject at all. 

905. Do I understand you to say that the discretion of the ex-officio director 
might be stiil more increased?—Undoubtedly ; I think he ought to have abso¬ 
lute powers. 

906. With regard to such a question as the contract of the Jubbulpore line, in¬ 
volving an outlay of 2,000,000 1 . of money, and being guaranteed by the Govern- 

0.61. h 2 ment, 



6 o 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. D. I. Noad. 


io May 1858. 


ment, do you not think that the Government ought to have a voice ?—I think 
that is probably one of the very questions upon which he would reserve himself, 
it being a matter of so much magnitude. 

907. There ought to be some limit placed upon his powers, ought there not ?— 
I would rather leave that limit in his own hands. 

908. You acknowledge that the Government, having guaranteed so large a 
sum, is bound to watch over the expenditure of that money ?—Through the 
ex-officio director, I think it is desirable they should. 

909. And desirable also for the sake of the railway company ?—Yes. 

910. Chairman.'] It is a question, as I understand, on the one hand, of the dis¬ 
cretion of the person entrusted with these duties ; and on the other, of the confi¬ 
dence of the East India Company, who employ him, in his capabilities to fulfil 
that office ?—Exactly. 

911. Mr. Danhy Seymour.] If the system that you advert to were adopted, do 
you think that English contractors might be induced to undertake these Indian 
works?—I have been last speaking of the system in England ; contractors would 
be more or less affected by the mode in which the supervision is carried out in India. 

912. Mr. Crawford.] There is no objection, I believe, on the part of the rail¬ 
way company to the supervision of the East India Company?—On the contrary, 
if exercised so as not to impede business. 

913. Do not the shareholders look upon it as a guarantee for the proper con¬ 
duct of the railway directors?—I think so. 

914. And it is esteemed accordingly' by the shareholders and by the company? 
—Yes. 

915. And the railway company has not the least desire to be released from 
that control ?—Certainly not. 

916. Mr. Danby Seymour.] Have you not put in a claim for the continuation 
of the railway up to Lahore and Peshawur r—Up to Lahore we undoubtedly con¬ 
sider part and parcel of the system of the East Indian Railway. 

917. I believe you have already 1,400 miles?—We shall have with theJubbuI- 
pore line. 

918. If you have the farther contract of the line up to Lahore, do you think 
that you can give adequate supervision to it in that country ?—I see no difficulty 
in the matter whatever. 

919. You do not think with so large an undertaking it would be impossible to 
conduct it so economically ?—I think we should conduct it more economically. 

920. It is difficult, is it not, to control so large a body of servants at such a 
distance ?—We have had no great difficulty up to the present time. 

921. You do not think that in India the expenditure is larger than if a Board 
of Directors sat in that country?—I am quite satisfied it is not. 

922. Mr. A. H. Baring.] How long did the East India Company take to con¬ 
sider the line from Mirzapore to Jubbulpore; did they consider it previous to 
the 2d May?—I think they took from the .5th of June 1856 until September 
1857, or rather I should say from November 1856, because the Court could not 
act until we had intimated our readiness to make the line, which we did on 11th 
of November 1856, and they occupied from November 1856 until the 5th of 
September 1857 before they sent us the draft contract. 

923. Mr. Cheetham.] Supposing a tender be submitted to your Railway Board 
for a contract for the supply of any material, have you power at once to decide 
and give the order?—We have now. 

924. Previous to the increase of the powers of the ex-officio director you had 
not ?—No. 

925. Is it your opinion, in the absence of that power, that the delay which 
arises is at times prejudicial to the interest of the company ?—I cannot say that 
we have received any absolute prejudice from the delay ; I think it fortunate that 
we have not. 

926. It might under certain states of the market?—I think it might have been 
very serious. 

927* You have had no occasion within the last two years to submit any new 
projected lines to the East India Company ?—We have not submitted any new 
projected lines. 

928. And you cannot say whether, within the last two months, the Board of 
Control have appointed a Railway Board to report upon all matters brought 
before them ?—I am not aware of that. 

929. Mr. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). Cn 

929. Mr. H. A. Bruce .] Have you, in the conduct of your railway, ever had Mr. D. I. Noad. 

questions long in dispute between you and the Board of Control or the East - 

India Company f—Yes, we have. 10 May 185s. 

930. I mean with reference to works to be executed ?—I cannot call to mind 
any particular instance. I think the question of the brick and iron structures 
was one of the longest; I am under the impression that there was rather a long 
correspondence in reference to the construction of the Soane Bridge, which it was 
originally intended to construct of brick, but the Board altered the design, and 
insisted upon making the superstruction of iron. 

931. With those two exceptions, the class of cases which have caused the 
communication between you and those two bodies have not been engineering 
questions ?—No, I think not. 

932. Mr. Stephenson.] With regard to delay not having taken place on 
engineering questions, allow me to ask you whether some delay did not take place 
in altering the original line to that along the valley of the Ganges ?—I do not 
think that any delay took place in that case; the Court of Directors under the 
contract have absolute power to determine where the line is to be; the experi¬ 
mental line, as it was called, for the greater length was common to both lines, 
either the one via the Ganges or the direct line, and during the construction of the 
experimental line the route of the main line was determined upon. 

933. Is the system pursued by your company different to that pursued by 
other Indian companies?—I think it is in some cases. 

934. For example, your consulting engineer in this country has never, I believe, 
had an opportunity of bringing his experience to bear upon any of the designs to 
be executed on the line?—Except on certain bridge structures. 

935. In other respects he is not your consulting engineer?—I should say 
that the permanent way and rolling stock have all been designed in this country, 
and the chief engineers in India correspond with them when they think necessary, 

936. The great contracts have been designed and carried on there without 
reference to this country ?—Yes. 

937. Your are aware, I suppose, that that is not the general system?—And it 
was not altogether the system that we intended to adopt. 

938. Chairman.] Will you give to the Committee some information as to the 
working of that part of the line which is open ; whether it is satisfactory or other¬ 
wise to the railway company ?—The results are highly satisfactory. 

939. What are the rates of profit that have been made by that line ?—It is 
difficult to define what the precise cost of the line has been, because it is so 
mixed up with the works of the great line; but taking the cost at about 
10,000/. a mile, the present profits would give a return of about 6| per cent. 

940. How much interest has been paid by the East India Company upon that 
portion of the line?—The earnings of the line now are more than equal to the 
payment of the interest guaranteed by the East India Company upon that 
particular line. 

941. Leaving nearly two per cent, profit?—Two per cent, profit. 

942. How much net revenue upon that portion of the line now opened has been 
paid to the East India Company?—£.170,000. 

943. Has the whole of that sum gone to recompense them for the interest 
previously paid ?—It has gone as a rate in aid towards the aggregate sum which 
they have to pay on the whole capital. 

944. Have you any table showing the rate of freight for passengers and goods 
upon the Raneegung portion of the line?—For the first class it is 2 d. per mile, for 
the second class, 1 d. per mile, and for the third class about tliree-eighths of a penny 
per mile. The goods are divided into five classes, varying from 1 d. to Gd. per 
ton per mile. 

945. Can you hand in a paper containing a return of the traffic, and of the rate 
of fares generally ?—Yes ; I can furnish such a table to the Committee. 

946. Will you inform the Committee what description of fuel you use, the cost 
and the amount of consumption r—We are using now nothing but Indian coal 
without coking it. 

947. Do you find that the use of raw coal fouls the furnaces of the engines ?— 

We liave not experienced any great difficulty that I am aware of. 

948. What is the cost and consumption of the fuel upon that portion of the line 
which is already opened ?—The average consumption is about 32 lbs. per train per 
mile, and the cost about 2 \d. 

0.61. h 3 949 * How 


62 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. D. I. Noad. 


10 May 1858. 


949. How many trains are you running daily each way upon that portion of 
the line which is open?—I do not know. 

950. Can you state the amount of traffic in goods and passengers on the line 
that has been opened?—From June 1855 to December 1855 we carried 617,281 
passengers, and 20,020 tons of goods; in all 1856 we carried 897,442 passengers 
and 77,705 tons of goods; in all 1857 we carried 1,070,907 passengers, and 
134,105 tons of goods. 

951. Mr. H. A. Bruce.'] Do these goods include coals ?—Yes. 

952. Chairman.] Have you made a comparison between the actual returns of 
traffic and the estimated returns upon which you based your original calculations ? 
—The returns upon the existing line are very much in excess of our estimate of 
what they would be. 

953. Mr. Cheetham .] Does that excess apply to the goods as well as to the 
passengers ?—To both. 

954. Chairman.] Have you any objection to put in the last revenue account of 
the company ?—Not the slightest. 

955 - What is the number of locomotive engines you have sent out to India ?— 
One hundred and twenty-two. 

956. At an average cost of how much ?—I should think from 2,500 /. to 2,800 l. 
each. 

957. Mr. II. A. Bruce. ] Is that the cost in this country ?—In this country. 

958. Mr. C. Bruce.] What is the cost of each engine upon its arrival in 
India ?—Our first engine cost us a very large sum of money to send out; but the 
cost now, I should think, would be about 40 s. per ton upon the measurement, and 
each engine would probably measure from 70 to 80 tons. It would weigh 
about 35 tons. 

959. That would be about 160/. added to the cost of the engine?—Yes. 

960. Do you send out any extras with the engines?—We send out a consider¬ 
able quantity of duplicate parts. 

961. Is that included in the cost you have stated?—I think it would be covered 
by that. 

962. Mr. H. A , Bruce.] You say you use coal as the fuel on your line?— 
Yes. 

963. Is that the line from Raneegung ?—Yes. 

964. Are the coal mines worked for other purposes than for those of the rail¬ 
way ?—Yes. 

965. Does your company carry a considerable quantity of coals to Calcutta 
for other purposes than those of the railway ?—A very large quantity. 

966. Chairman.] Was not the branch from Burdwan to Raneegung made 
originally with a view to the coal traffic ? —Exactly. 

967. Mr. Danby Seymour.] Have you ever made a proposition to the Govern¬ 
ment to undertake iron works ?—We have not. 

968. Or coal works?—No. 

969. Do you think it would be a good thing for the railway company to have 
iron works of their own ?—I think it would be a very mistaken policy indeed. 

970. Chairman.] From whom do you purchase your fuel; in whose hands are 
the works at Raneegung?—The greater part of the coal pits at present worked 
are in the hands of a company called the Bengal Coal Company. 

971. Is that an English or a native company ?—It is a local company. 

972. Mr. C. Bruce.] Can you say whether the seams of coal are numerous- 
—I do not think that the workings have been carried to any great depth at present. 

973. Have you any separate return of the quantity of coal carried ?—Yes; the 
great increase in the traffic between 1856 and 1857 was m the quantity of coal 
carried. 

974. Do you think there is any chance of the coal being exhausted?—On the 
contrary, we hear of new seams being opened every day. 

975 * Mr. T). Seymour.] You must, of course, have large establishments ? — At 
the terminal stations. 

976. And when you have the 1,400 miles of railway opened that must be on a 
large scale? We must have several large locomotive and repairing establish¬ 
ments, no doubt. 

977* Would you have more than one ?—Yes, more than one. 

97^. Would it not be advisable to open large establishments where the iron is 
worked, and could you not make the iron yourselves ?—That would depend upon 

whether 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 63 


whether the line went through those districts; we could not place our establish¬ 
ments at one spot and have our line in another. 

979. Could you not at one establishment make your iron, and convey it from 
there to other parts ?—I think it would be a great mistake in a railway company 
to undertake the manufacture of iron. 

980. Would it not be less expensive than bringing it from England?—I doubt 
that very much. 

981. Do you not think that, year after year, you could manufacture the iron 
cheaper in India ?—I do not think that the railway company could make it cheaper. 

982. Are you aware that some other companies have made such proposals to 
the Government ?—I heard of it accidentally the other day. 

983. Mr. Crawford.] I think you stated the other day that the,amount of 
freight for iron was 24s. per ton ?—Yes. 

984. Are you of opinion that that is much less than the probable additional cost 
of manufacturing iron for yourselves in India, comparing the cost of the iron so 
made witli the cost of iron made here ?—I doubt whether you could produce the iron 
in India, in a shape for railway purposes, at the same cost as you produce it here. 

985. The only additional cost of an iron rail as delivered to you here is, the 
expense of freight, insurance and management?—No doubt; the cost of freight 
is added to the price of the material, and I doubt whether you could produce rails 
at the same cost in India. 

986. Supposing the cost of rails to be 8/. per ton here, and you could not 
produce them in India for less than 10/. per ton, as I understand, it would be 
cheaper for you to send out your rails at 245. per ton than to make them your¬ 
selves in India?—There would be a direct saving of course. 

987. Mr. D. Seymour. When the manufacture of iron in India was first com¬ 
menced, it would cost a great deal more than it probably would when the manu¬ 
facture of it became more extensive ?—One would hope that as the manufacture 
increased, the cost would decrease. 

988. Is not that generally the case when a manufacture is introduced for the 
first time ?—It is generally. 

989. Do you not then look forward to the time when you may be able to 
procure your rails in India?—I do not, at all events for a long time. 

990. You think that you will always be obliged to come to England for your 
rolling stock and rails?—I think for many years to come. 

991. If iron works were established in India, it would be a very great 
advantage, would it not?—If they were successful, and could produce the iron 
at the same price for which we can obtain it here, no doubt it would be 
advantageous. 

992. For the production of iron in India you have the ore, the labour and the 
fuel ? —I am not clear that we have fuel always accessible; we have the ore, no 


doubt. 

onc? Have you seen the reports of Colonel Drummond upon the iron mines in 
Kumaon?—Yes. 

094. He SDeaks of vast tracts of forest?—Yes. 

995. Which be says would supply fuel for a long period?—It does not follow 
that they could always be available for the purpose. 

996. Is it not the fact that at Porto Novo you have both iron and coal ? I 
believe there is little doubt of the existence of both iron and coal in the greatei 
part of India. 

997. I believe that in Jubbulpore you have both coal and iron together on the 
line of railway?—I believe both coal and iron may be found together in the 
valley of the Nerbudda. 

-998. Do you consider that it is impossible to produce iron for railway purposes 
in India?—l think for many years it would be impossible to manufacture it at 
anything like the price for which we can buy it here. 

999. 'Mr. H. A. Brace.] As I understand, you consider that railway companies 
are not the proper parties to undertake it?—Unquestionably. 

1000. Mr. C. Bruce.] Can you inform the Committee whether the quality ot 
iron alluded to has beenfound to be of very superior quality?—I do not know 
the quality of the iron to which Mr. Seymour refers, but I know that the quality 
of the iron obtained in the Madras Presidency is of a very valuable character; and 
in point of fact that it more nearly approaches steel. 

1001. Mr. Stephenson.] Will your return of the traffic contain, as a separate 
item, the amount of coal you are now conveying ? Yes. 

‘ i nno I In 


Mr. D. J. Nead. 


10 May 1858. 



Mr. D. L 
10 May 1 


64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

1002. Do you know how much you charge per ton per mile for the convey¬ 
ance of coal ?—A little over three farthings. 

1003. Mr. Cheetham .] Have you had the subject of branch lines under your 
consideration at all ?—No, we have not; we have rather set our faces against 
branch lines. 

1004. Have you ever considered the advantage to your company of simple tram 
branch lines ?—I have not; but I think that anything which facilitates the com¬ 
munication between distant parts and our line must be of advantage. 

1005. You say that your line is a single line, and that the bridges are constructed 
for a double line P—The earthworks and the main bridges. 

1006. What is the estimated cost per mile ?—About 9,600 l. per mile, including 
the rolling stock. 

1007. Simple tram lines on the line of railway would of course be made at 
much less cash than that ?—Undoubtedly. 

1008. Supposing you go through districts of large agricultural produce, you 
have not considered whether it is advisable to make such lines?—We have not. 

1009. Chairman .] When you speak of the main bridging works, have you any 
bridges at all which are not constructed with a view to the line becoming double ? 
—Yes, the Soane Bridge; the superstructure of that is only at present for a 
single line. 

1010. Is that with the sanction of the Government?—It is. 

1011. Is anv of the coal which you bring to Calcutta intended for the use of 
steamers ?—For the use of the port, and also of the public. 

1012. Are you aware whether the steamers use it?—They do to a certain 
extent, I think ; but I do not know that it is a good steam coal. 

1013. Can you say to what use the coal is applied in Calcutta?—It is used 
chiefly, I believe, in factories, engineering works, and Government works. 

1014. Chairman .] You made the remark the other day, that you did not alto¬ 
gether acquit your engineer of blame upon the subject of the manufacture of 
bricks ; do you consider that any blame attached to the Government engineer in 
that matter?—I think that when Mr. Turnbull originally designed those brick 
structures, which it now appears will take longer to construct than is desirable, 
he was probably not very well acquainted with the local resources of the 
country; and it may be, that he was influenced in his designs by the recom¬ 
mendation of the Government engineer. I do not know that it is the fact, but it 
may turn out to be so. I certainly should have been better pleased if Mr. Turn- 
bull had sooner represented the difficulties there seem to be in procuring bricks 
as fast as they are wanted. Of course that view may be modified by his explana¬ 
tion. This is a case in which the value of the Government supervision might 
undoubtedly have been brought to bear, and as it is impossible to conceive that 
the officers of the Government, who had been so long occupied in great public 
works in India, could be uninformed of the producing power of the country,. 
I can only attribute their passing these designs without suggesting the difficulty 
that has arisen either to a want of consideration, or to the circumstance that they 
never sufficiently appreciated the magnitude of the operations connected with so 
great a work. 

1015. Do you go the length of saying, that your engineer did not receive that 
assistance from the Government officers to which you think he was entitled ? — I 
think that w hen Mr. Turnbull proposed these designs, the superior local information 
which the Government officers ought to have possessed should have enabled them 
to say at once, that while undoubtedly brick structures were the cheapest that 
could be adopted, it w-as simply impossible to get the bricks required within the 
time within which the works ought to be completed. I think also, that the same 
amount of local information should have prevented their sanctioning the entering 
into contracts which involved the construction of 1,100 miles of railways in 
India in two years. 

1016. Mr. D. Seymour.'] Do you mean to say that you cannot make any 
amount of bricks in Bengal ?—There is no difficulty in making bricks ; but we find 
that the maximum annual make upon any given 50 miles, is about 800,000 cubic 
feet, and the difficulty is in getting the vast quantity we require in the time we 
want them. 

1017. Are you aware that various indigo planters in Bengal have proposed to 
construct their roads of brick, in consequence of the unlimited supply ?—I do- 
not attach much importance to that, when I know that we cannot get the bricks 
we want. 

1018. The 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 65 

1018. The Government engineers thought, .like other people in India, that the Mr. D. /. Noad. 

supply was unlimited ?—I think their great experience in public works previously - 

should have kept them better informed. 10 May 1858. 

10ip. Have you thoroughly investigated the question, so as to know whether 
the opinion of your engineer is correct?—No; I cannot say but that when we 
receive the explanations w T e have written for, his view as to the number of bricks 
to be produced may not be modified. 

1020. These contracts were entered into five years ago?—Yes. 

1021. As I understand, it is only in the fifth year that your engineer writes to 
you tell you to that he cannot procure bricks ; at. the time when the bricks 
ought to have been used and your line completed to Rajmahal?—Yes. 

1022. Do you not think that in four years he might, year by year, have seen 
the deficiency ?—1 certainly think he might. 

1023. Do you not think it is an extraordinary thing that he should first be 
bringing this to your notice in the fifth year ?—I think it is; but as the Government 
engineers passed Mr. Turnbull’s designs, it is only lately that he may have enquired 
particularly into the matter. 

1024. Do you not think that the local officers may still think that bricks by 
proper means may be procured in a sufficient quantity ?—So may Mr. Turnbull. 

1025. Colonel Sykes.'] Do you understand that it arises from the want of 
labour ?—From the want of the necessary description of labour, and I believe 
the difficulty of getting local supplies of fuel. 

1026. Are you aware of the amount of brickwork necessary along the line of 
the Ganges canal, and what are the means adopted to insure a supply of bricks 
on that line ?—I do not. 

1027. Supposing the same energy and the same ability to be manifested in 
procuring bricks for the line of railway to Rajmahal as was the case along the 
line ot the Ganges, do you not suppose that the difficulty might be overcome?— 

I do not think there is any want of ability or any want of energy in that respect. 

1028. They have succeeded, have they not, in the North Western Provinces, in 
procuring an adequate supply of bricks ?—I know nothing of the construction of 
that canal. 

1029. Mr. Camming Bruce.~\ Speaking of the Valley of the Soan, you say that 
the clay was about 30 feet below the surface?—Below the sand. 

1030. And to get at the clay necessary for making bricks, you must make an 
excavation of 30 feet ?—We should not take the clay from the bed of the river for 
the purpose of making bricks. 

1031. At what distance from the operations you are carrying on could you get 
at the beds of clay more easily?—We have no difficulty ill finding clay, our diffi¬ 
culty is in finding labour and fuel; there is no question of our ability to procure 
all the bricks we require ultimately, but the difficulty is to procure all the bricks 
we require within as short a space of rime as we wish. 

1032. Mr. Crawford.'] Was not the line of railway between Burdwan and 
Rajmahal, as to which your difficulty in getting bricks applies, originally let upon 
contract ?—Yes, with the exception of about 45 miles. 

1033. May it not be supposed, then, that the engineers of the railway relied 
upon the contractors for a supply of bricks?—Undoubtedly they did, as long as 
the contracts remained in existence. 

1034. And that the railway engineers, in point of fact, relied upon the infor¬ 
mation which they had a right to suppose the contractors had possessed them¬ 
selves of before they entered into contracts ?—I think, nevertheless, that the 
engineers of the company ought to have inquired for themselves into that fact. 

1035. Sir James JSlphinstone.] Are the bricks made by machinery r—They 
have hitherto been mostly made by hand. 

1036. You have not had in use any of the brick-making machines?—We are 
sending out a large number of them now. 

1037. The bricks made by the natives are not, I believe, very well burnt?— 

Yes, we have very fine bricks. With proper supervision you get very good bricks. 

1038. Mr. Crawford.~\ Has a survey of the Jubbulpoor line been made with a 
view to determining its probable cost?—Yes. 

1039. When describing the course of events between 1845 and 1849, y ou 
referred to two letters, dated the 23d of March and the 29th of May, sent by the 
Board of the railway company; have you copies of those letters?—Yes. That of 
the 23d of March is in these terms:— 

0.61. 


I 


Sir, 




66 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. D. 1 . Noad. 


10 May 1858. 


East India Railway Company, 

g| r> London, 23 March 1848 . 

I am desired by the Board of Directors of the East India Railway Company to acknow¬ 
ledge the receipt of your letter of the 21st instant, in which you intimate that the Court 
of Directors of the East India Company feel themselves under the necessity of adhering to 
the conditions contained in the latter paragraph ot the letter addressed to this Company by 
their desire, on the 10th November last, and accordingly that unless the required deposit of 
100,000 L be made on or befoie the 31 st instant, their agreement with this company will be 
considrred null and void. 

In replying to that letter it is necessary to take a short review of the circumstances which 
have given rise to the communications between the Court ot Directors and this Company, 
which had their commencement as early as the year 1844 . 

At that period the promoters of this undertaking (who were the originators of the scheme 
of introducing railways into India), took up the subject, entirely on public grounds, and 
declined to enter on any measures towards the formation of a company for carrying out 
the object, until the principle of Government and pecuniary support had been recognised 
by your Honourable Court. 

That point was decided after much deliberation, and communicated in your letter of the 
8 th May 1845 , in which you stated that the Court of Directors had deemed it necessary for 
the safe and satisfactory prosecution of railroads in India, that the general subject should, 
■in the first instance, be referred for investigation and report to the Government of India, 
and that the Court were about to dispatch an eminent engineer to proceed to Calcutta, to 
act under the directions of the Government in the investigation. 

On the result of this communication the promoters of this company, who had taken much 
pains in investigating the subject, and entertained great confidence in the information 
obtained, felt justified in proceeding to form an experimental company for the purpose of 
sending an agent to Calcutta with a view to co-operate with the Government of India in 
determining the question whether the railway system was practicable in India, and to decide 
on the line most suitable for the purpose. 

Accordingly a company was formed in London in June 1845 . Mr. Stephenson, the 
managing director, accompanied by three surveyors, was dispatched to India in the same 
steamer with the engineer deputed by the Court of Directors, and Mr. Stephenson returned 
from Calcutta in May 1840 , after making a survey of 900 miles of railway from Calcutta 
to Delhi. 

The result of Mr.. Stephenson’s investigations and survey, as confirmed afterwards by 
the Report of the Commissioners appointed by the local Government of India, was the 
conclusion arrived at by all parties that the railroad system was perfectly adaptable to 
India; that the line on which the experiment ought to be tried was that proposed by this 
company from Calcutta to Delhi; and that the execution of the undertaking ought to be 
committed to a company formed for the purpose. 

These conclusions having been thus arrived at, the Board of Directors felt authorised in 
submitting to your Honourable Court, in June 1846 , proposals containing the terms on which’ 
they were willing to undertake the construction of the railway from Calcutta to Delhi, 
among the most important of which was a guarantee of interest on the capital to be 
expended. 

To these proposals no definite answer was received until the month of February 1847 , 
when a paper containing the terms on which your Honourable Court was prepared to give 
support to the scheme was communicated to the Board, among which terms was the free 
gift of the land for 90 years, and a guarantee of 4 per cent, interest, limited to 15 yer.rs, on 
an expenditure of three millions. 

At the time when this communication was received the monetary affairs of the country, 
which had become much deranged in the interval since the formation of the company, 
did not adniii of raising a capital for undertaking so great a work with the deferred prospect 
of return incident to a railroad in India ai the rate of interest guaranteed, and your Court 
therefore were induced to offer an extension of the rate of interest to 5 per cent., and of the 
term from 15 to 25 years, and this extension was communicated to the Board of Directors 
in a letter from you, hearing date the 21st July last. 

In that letter you stated that the concession thus offered must be considered as final, 
and required that instructions for commencing the preliminary arrangements should be 
dispatched by the railway company to Bengal, at the earlier practicable period, and 
that the railway company should pay into the East India Company’s treasury a sutn 
of 100,000 7 . on account of the proposed undertaking within three months from that 
date. 

On receipt of this letter, the Board of Directors lost no time in convening a meeting: of 
their proprietary, which took place on the 5 th August 1847 , at which it was resolved, not¬ 
withstanding the unfavourable aspect of the times, to make a call on the proprietary to 
meet the necessary expenses, and enable the company to make the required deposit; and 
by the steamer of the 20th September, the Board once more dispatched Mr. Stephenson to 
Calcutta with a large staff of engineers, in order to be prepared to give effect to the desire 
of the Court to proceed actively with the preliminary arrangements for the construction 
of the line. 

From that period down to the month of February last, the commercial world, as you are 
aw'are, has been under the influence of a crisis of monetary difficulty unexampled in 
modem times, and particularly affecting this company in many respects, in consequence of 

which 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 67 

which the Board of Directors were under the necessity of applying to the Court to extend 
the time of payment of the agreed deposit, which they did, until 31 st March instant. 

In the meantime, notwithstanding all the difficulties of the times, shareholders to the 
extent of five millions of capital executed the company’s deed of settlement, and the call 
was paid on a large portion of the shares. 

The remaining shareholders omitted to pay their calls, and, in consequence, at the 
annual general meeting of the proprietors, held on the 19 th February last (the proceedings 
at which have been communicated to you), it was determined to forfeit all the shares in the 
company on which the call was not paid, and to issue them to the proprietors willing to 
take them, and to the public, at the price of the call. 

In this measure the Board of Directors felt full confidence at the time, and they had 
reason to believe it would have been entirely successful, and that the necessary money 
would have been subscribed by the 31 st instant, but for the circumstance that, within five 
days after the meeting, an extraordinary train of events took place in France, extending 
subsequently throughout all Europe, and yet undeveloped, which has for the time paralysed 
all undertakings, both of a public and private character, requiring immediate application of 
money. 

The Board of Directors have felt it necessary to lay before you this short statement 
of facts in order to satisfy your Honourable Court, not only that their whole energies 
have been devoted wit! 1 good faith and singleness of purpose to the early accomplish¬ 
ment of the great work they have in hand, but also that the delay asked for, the pay¬ 
ment of the proposed monetary deposit, is rendered expedient by circumstances, in 
respect of which no censure can attach to them, and which are amply sufficient to 
justify such a request. 

The Board of Directors confidently represent to the Court that there is jio public 
company which has not equally felt the combined pressure of commercial and political 
events, and does not require alike forbearance and encouragement in carrying out its 
engagements and operations. 

They would also, as far as they may be permitted to do so, without indelicacy, refer 
to their own company as embracing amongst its constituency all the elements adapted 
to the object, including the principal interests connected with Indian commerce, and 
would confidently ask whether any company existing, or to be formed hereafter for a 
like purpose, could effect more than they have done, and are willing to undertake under 
existing circumstances. 

Tne company has already received a capital exceeding 100,000/., of which upwards 
of 40,000 /. have been expended in the operation already referred to, leaving more than 
50,000 /. still in the hands of the company ready to be applied to the objects of the 
undertaking. 

In making this communication, I am directed by the Board of Directors to add that 
while their application to the Court of Directors had reference more especially to the 
condition which required a deposit of 100,000/. on the 31 st March, it was based also on 
grounds more widely affecting the substantial merits and objects of the measure. 

It had been reported to them, by the last mail, that one of their committee was on his 
way to England, in possession of information valuable alike to the Court of Directors and 
the company, as equally interested in this great undertaking, and which might have an 
important bearing on it. 

It was also known that the late Governor-General of India might shortly be expected in 
England; and the Board of Directors assumed that it would not be thought unreasonable 
that both the Court of Directors and this Board should have the opportunity of communi¬ 
cating with these officers in the existing state of their mutual relations. 

If the Court of Directors, on consideration, should still be of opinion that these opportu¬ 
nities should not be afforded to the company, and should feel it necessary, notwithstanding 
the representations made to them, to enforce the stipulation for payment of 100,000/., on 
the 31 st instant, the Board desiie me to add that they will adopt every measure with that 
view'; and if, in order to that object, it should be necessary to call their shareholders toge¬ 
ther, they will rely on the slight extension of time necessary for that purpose (under 
the terms of their deed) being conceded to them; but they would still submit to the Court 
the propriety, under existing circumstances, of complying with a request which the Board 
of Directors have made, with a view to the interests of a measure, in which the Court of 
Directors and themselves are alike interested, but the risk and responsibility of which, 
under very trying circumstances, rest entirely with the Board of Directors of the railway 
company. 

I am. Sec. 

J. C. Melvill, Esq. (signed) Z>. I. Noad. 

And this is a copy of the letter of the Secretary, the 29th of May: 

East India Railway Company, 

Sir, 8, Broad-street Buildings, 29 May 1848 . 

I am instructed by the Board of Directors of the East India Railway Company to acknow¬ 
ledge the receipt of your letter of the 29 th ultimo (received the 1st May), written in reply 
to my communication of the 20th April, in which I intimated the possibility that the Board 
of Directors might not, under existing circumstances, be in a position t<> make the deposit 
of 100,000 /, with your Honourable Court until a few days after the 1st of May, and 
O.61. I 2 requested 


Mr. D. I. Noad. 


10 May 1858. 



IVJr. D. I. Noad. 


10 May 1858. 


68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

requested indulgence to ihat extent. In your letter you state that no extension of time 
beyond the 1st of May will be granted; and that, in the event of failure to make the pay¬ 
ment on that day, the agreement with the railway company will be null and void; and 
further, that the Court cannot consent to any modification of the rate of interest which they 
have agreed to allow, or of the period for which the guarantee was proposed. 

The Board of Directors feel that the determination thus communicated, at a time of 
peculiar difficulty, when the position of this company, as of all enterprises of a similar 
nature, required the greatest forbearance and encouragement, is less liberal and considerate 
than they were prepared to expect from the Couit of Directors. 

The promoters of this undertaking have never disguised from the Court or themselves 
the views thev entertained of the necessity of support and co-operation from the Govern¬ 
ment of India; and they would never have proceeded so lar with ihe undertaking, but lor 
the encouragement contained in the minute of your Honourable Court, dated the 7th May 
1845, and your letter of the 8th May 1845, and the policy announced that railroads in 
India should be constructed and managed as they are in this country, by means of private 
enterprise and capital. 

Having been leu by these inducements to form a company on this basis, and incurred 
great expense in extending tc the necessary point the investigations conducive to this 
object, the Board of Directors, in July 1846, proposed to your Honourable Court the terms 
on which they were prepared to undertake the construction of the line selected by your 
Honourable Court, and the Board of Directors feel warranted in stating, that had the terms 
they asked at that time been conceded (even subject to some modification) they would 
have had no difficulty in raising the capital required. 

Unfoitunately, the Board of Directors received no reply to this communication until the 
latter'end of January 1847, when the long and unprecedented train of pecuniary embarrass¬ 
ments had commenced, which have since abated only in favour of political disturbances, 
even more disastrous to such undertakings. 

The terms then offered by the Court were not such as, under the discouraging circum¬ 
stances of the times, admitted of a capital being raised on a scale to justify their accept¬ 
ance, and the Board of Directors were in communication with your Honourable Court from 
Februarv to July 1847, with a view to obtain more favourable concessions. The ultimatum 
of the Court of Directors was received at the later peiiod, and the Board then saw ground 
for hoping that the guarantee offered of 5 per cent, for 25 years, though less than the terms 
they had felt it right to propose, might have formed a sufficient inducement to their pro¬ 
prietary to undertake the outlay fixed by your Honourable Court at three millions, and 
when those terms were offered, the Board of Directors immediately acted on the requisition 
contained in your letter of the 21st July 1847, by forthwith engaging and sending out an 
increased staff to India, a step entailing great expense upon the Company, but evidencing 
their zeal and sincerity. 

These measures were taken under an expectation that the times would improve, but 
this has not been the case, and hence the Directors found it necessary to apply for a 
further extension of time for payment of the 100,000 l. which your Honourable Court 
required as a preliminary to the contract. 

Under all ordinary circumstances, the interval which has elapsed would have been suffi¬ 
cient for the purpose of raising the money, but during this time such was the state of 
commercial embarrassment at home, that, as your Honourable Court cannot fail to be aware. 
Her Majesty’s Government found it necessary to introduce a Bill into the Legislature, 
giving English railway companies a considerable period to complete their engagements; 
and when these difficulties appeared to be subsiding a revolution appeared on the Con¬ 
tinent, baffling, in its consequences, all calculations, and destroying for the time the 
disposition of capitalists to enter upon any engagement, nor was such a difficulty peculiar 
even to enterprises of this nature, for the experience of your Honourable Court will suffici¬ 
ently prove, that, for the ordinary remittances to India, money on extraordinarily advan¬ 
tageous terms was only to be obtained to a very limited extent. 

In this state of things it was scarcely to be expected that the Board of Directors would 
find themselves in a position to make a deposit of 100,000 l. by the 1st of May, which 
depended on a call which they were not in a position to make until the 22d of April, 
Nor was it to be hoped that terms which had not been sufficient under less unfavourable 
auspices, would prove to be so at a moment of increased and universal difficulty. 

Nevertheless the Board, on being made acquainted with your decision, convened a 
meeting of shareholders, made a call, obtained a large portion of the money necessary, and 
might have been in a position, but for your letter, to make the deposit within the short 
further peiiod of indulgence asked. Such a communication, made at such a time, was 
calculated to discourage the disposition, and paralyse the exertions of ihe company, and 
induce a want of confidence in the intentions of the directors most injurious to the under¬ 
taking. 

The Board of Directors would now submit to you, that if the Honourable Court is still 
desirous that the railway should be commenced, they are prepared to recommend their 

shareholders to undertake it on terms commensurate with the cautious spirit of the limes,_ 

with ihe present rate of interest for similar enterprises, and with the rate which the Govern¬ 
ment has offered to colonial railways, in preference to recalling their staff, and awaitino- the 
return of more settled times before entering upon the works. As, however, they have 
an establishment retained at great expense, and part actually at Calcutta; and as they 
conceive the delay to be very injurious to the cause, they would take leave to suggest to 

the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 69 

the Honourable Court, that a guarantee, increased as to amount or duration, should be 
allowed to the company, on an expenditure limited, if they please, to the outlay necessary 
for a single section of the line, from Calcutta to Delhi; which, after consultation with the 
proprietary, the Board of Directors would in that case he prepared at once to undertake, 
and on account of which they would be ready at once to deposit a sum of 50,000 l. with the 
Court of Directors. 

I am desired by the Board of Directors to add, that if the Honourable Court should be 
of opinion that it will tend to give confidence to the enterprise, either here or in India, 
they would he willing that ihe Court of Directors, as in the case of the Bank of Bengal, 
should provide one-third, or a portion to be agreed on, of the capital necessary, and have 
a right of nominating a proportionate number of Directors, so as to give to the Government 
of India an interest alike in the profits and management of the undertaking. 

I have, &c. 

J. C. Melvill, Esq., &c. &c. (signed D. 1 . Noad, Secretary. 

1040. Can you state the probable cost per mile of the Jubbulpore line? — 
About 7,800/. per mile, exclusive of the rolling stock. 

Mr. George Sibley , called in ; and Examined. 

1041. Chairman .] I believe you are a Civil Engineer?—I am. 

1042. Have you been employed upon certain portions of the East India Rail¬ 
way ?—I have. 

1043. Upon what portion of the line ?—I was first of all on the Chandernagore 
District, which is now open, and subsequently to that on the South Beerbhoom 
District. 

1044. You have been employed, I believe, in a subordinate capacity ; you have 
not acted as chief?—As district engineer. 

1045. I believe you were under Mr. Turnbull ?—I was. 

1046. Over what period does your experience of railway construction in India 
extend ?—Since the autumn of 1851, up to two months ago, when I arrived here. 

1047. You have been engaged in India about five years?—Between six and 
seven. 

1048. You can speak, I believe, from personal experience, to the mode in 
which the supervision of the Government is carried on?—I can. 

1049. I presume you have been repeatedly brought into contact with the 
Government engineer ?—I have. 

1050. Do you think that the system of supervision, as carried on by the Govern¬ 
ment engineer, is susceptible of improvement ?—Undoubtedly so. 

1051. Can you state to the Committee any special case of inconvenience which 
you have felt in consequence of the exercise of Government supervision?—I can; 
the system is not a very regular one, it varies considerably ; on the portion of the 
line where I was last engaged we did not suffer much from the superintendence 
with regard to the powers of sanction required tor the execution of the works : 
that we"did without indent, but for all plant required we were obliged to submit 
indents, and they went through the usual circumlocutory course. I may men¬ 
tion what occurred shortly after our works were started; in November 1853 we 
indented for six agricultural engines for the purpose of pumping, and we obtained 
them in August 1855, after a period of 21 months ; that affects the course of pro¬ 
ceeding in India, and also the course of proceeding here. 

1052. Have you had any experience of the line since it was constructed ? 

No ; I have not had charge of it; with regard to the superintendence it affected 
our staff, because we had not the power of putting on one man without previous 
sanction. 

1053. Is it not the case that the class of skilled labour requisite for railway 
work is not obtainable in India ?—It is not obtainable in India as skilled labour; 
you have to educate it. 

1034. Had you a sufficient staff, so that in case of your engineers being taken 
ill, you had the means of supplying their places ?—We had not; we were always 
under-manned. 

1055* D° you know of inconvenience arising from that course?—I know of 
cases of inconvenience arising, and men invaliding in consequence of over¬ 
work. 

1056. Mr. Crawford.'] You have had the responsible charge of constructing 
some portion of the work of the East Indian Railway ?—I have. 
o.6, # I 3 1057. Describe 


Mr. D. 1 . Noad. 


io May 1858. 


Mr. G. Sibley. 




70 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TIIE 


Mr. G. Sibley. 


10 May 1858. 


10.57. Describe the portion ?—'The portion of which I have at present charge 
extends from the junction near Burdwan to over the River Mor. 

1058. What is the distance in miles ?—Forty-five miles. 

1059. What is the general character of the works ?—The works are decidedly 
heavy. 

1060. In what respect?—They are heavy in respect of earthwork, owing to 
the gradients we are restricted to, and they are heavy in respect to the river, 
crossings. We cross the drainage of the country at right angles. 

1061” What is the ruling gradient in that part of the line which you have 
under your charge?—It is now 1 in 5 00 * 

1062. Was it at any time to have been a better gradient than that?—Better, 
in the shape of being flatter; at the time the section was sanctioned, we were 
restricted to a gradient of 1 in 1.000, and it was only after considerable discus¬ 
sion, and repeatedly bringing the matter before the Government, that we got 
them to consent to an alteration; our works were commenced with a gradient of 
1 in 1,000, and we had to alter them. 

1063. Are you able to state any practical results of the change ?—I have no 
figures with me. 

1064. Speaking generally, the works would have been heavier with a gradient 
of i in 1,000 and 1 in 500 ?—Very much so. 

1065. You spoke of two bridges over the Rivers Hadjai and Mor; what is the 
character of those bridges?—The bridge over the Hadjai has a waterway of 1,600 
feet, with flood openings, on the one side of 400, and on the other of 260 feet. 

1066. What is the number of arches?—Thirty-two. 

1067. And the span ?—Fifty feet. 

1068. I believe it was proposed thatthe bridge should be built of brick?—Entirely. 

1069. How’ far had the bridge advanced when you left India?—The founda¬ 
tions of 18 out of 32 arches and piers were in, and the earth work was excavated 
for the whole of the remainder. 

1070. What are the dimensions of the other bridge over the Mor?—That has 
1,200 feet of waterway. 

1071. What height is it above the water level?—The elevation of the rail 
above the high flood level is 20 feet. 

1072. Had you much difficulty in procuring bricks necessary for the con¬ 
struction of the works, so far as they had proceeded when you left?—We have 
not been delayed in consequence of a deficiency of bricks in either of those 
w r orks ; in fact, at the Mor Bridge we have eight millions of bricks collected. 

1073. What would be the whole number of bricks required for those two 
bridges ?—Allowing for waste, there would require to be provided at the Hadjai 
36 millions, and at the Mor 23 millions. 

1074. Do you find the natives handy workmen ?—Very much so. 

1075. How do you secure an efficient superintendency over the construction 
of the bridge?—At each bridge we have an assistant engineer, and under him 
are inspectors ; in one case we have three and in the other two, of whom one espe¬ 
cially looks after the excavation of the foundations, and the other the brickwork. 

1076. Chairman .] Are they Europeans ?—They are Europeans. 

1077. Have you any native skilled workmen at all employed?—Yes. 

1078. But not as inspectors?—Yes; we let the brickwork of each small 
bridge, which is executed at so much per hundred cubic feet, and separately at 
each bridge we put over a native inspector. 

1079. Are ad your inspectors native inspectors ?—Of the small single works they 
are. The establishment which we asked for and did not get sanctioned was a 
district engineer for some 90 miles, and that under him should be three resident 
engineers, each with a length of 30 miles, and that under each of those there should 
be three assistant engineers with a length of 10 miles each ; and that when the 
work was executed by contract, each assistant engineer should have two European 
inspectors, and that where we were executing works without the intervention of 
contractors, he should have, in addition, two clerks of the works to collect mate¬ 
rials, prepare bricks, lime, &c. 

1080. Chairman.'] You say that was the staff you proposed, and which you did 
not get sanctioned?—The Government objected to it as being, as they said, in 
excess; it was brought forward on, I think, the 18th November 1856, and is still 
an open question. It was replied to on the 20th January 1857, as being in excess, 
but the Government did not state what would be sufficient. 


1081. The 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 71 

1081. The application originally was in the shape of indent for an increase to 
the staff?—For an increase to the staff. 

1082. To that application you have as yet received no positive answer?—We 
have received a positive refusal, but without stating what number the)' considered 
sufficient. 

1083. Mr. Crawford .] You have had experience in India in the construction of 
works under contract ?—I have. 

1084. Which do you think is the best system, to execute the works by contract, 
or by the company doing the work themselves?—Our first contracts answered very 
fairly on the whole, and I think that arose from their being more limited in their 
extent than those that were afterwards entered into. 

1085* You think that the contract system in Bengal has broken down by con¬ 
tractors taking too large an extent under their management ?—I think that has 
been the chief cause ; the contracts as originally let averaged from 10 to 20 miles, 
and they were carried out more or less satisfactorily ; the contracts afterwards made 
averaged from 80 to 120 miles. 

J086. Have you been over the line from the district under your jurisdiction to 
the River Mor, towards Rajmahal ? — I have been over that line as far as 
Sigreegullee. 

1017. I understand that considerable saving has been effected in the earth¬ 
works on the line between Rajmahal and Colgong in consequence of the altera¬ 
tion of the ruling giadient from 1 in 300 to 1 in 200?—Yes, it was only altered 
in one instance. In going over the line we saw that great improvement might be 
made in that particular case, and we brought it before Government, and finally 
obtained their assent. 

1088. What is the saving on the excavation of the earthworks in consequence 
of the reduction of the gradient?—The saving in that particular cutting was a 
reduction from thirteen millions to six millions. 

1089. Have you been further on the line towards Mirzapore ?—I have been up 
the trunk-road between Allahabad and Cawnpore. 

1090. You have not been upon the line between Colgong and Allahabad?—I 
have not. 

1091. Having been up the great trunk-road by the side of which the railway 
would have gone if the original line had been made, are you able to form an 
opinion as to the propriety of the decision of the Government in changing the 
course of the line ?—I am ; although I have not travelled along the line between 
Colgong and Benares, I have seen the whole of the sections, and having seen the 
country between Burdwan and Colgong, and also that between Raneegung and 
Benares, I am decidedly of opinion that the line of the direct route might have 
been constructed in a very much less time and at less cost than that by the valiey 
route. 

1092. Have you any recollection at this moment of the altitude the line has 
to surmount in overcoming the water shed between the River Damoodah and the 
River Soan ?—There has never been any very accurate section of that line taken, 
but I believe the summit is put down at about 1,030 feet. 

1093. What is the character of the passage over the Soan, where the trunk 
road crosses it ?—It is very wide there; but at a distance of about 20 miles fur¬ 
ther up the River Soan than where it crosses, both banks are of rock. 

1094. What is the width of the river where if crosses?—Two and a quarter 
miles. 

1095. You have not been on that part of the River Soan which it is proposed 
to cross by this bridge?—I have not. 

1096. You formed your opinion, as I understand, as to the advisability of the 
direct route over the circuitous route, upon general personal knowledge of the 
facts of the case ?—Simply so, and upon a general inspection of the country. 

1097. Do you confine your preference of the direct route over the other to 
the mere engineering question?—No; I think that, as regards the facilities it 
will afford for traffic, the country will be much better served by the direct line 
carried to Benares, and a branch such as we are constructing from near Burdwan 
to Rajmahal ; that would have given the same total length as along where we are 
now making the valley line. 

1098. When you speak of traffic do you mean traffic beyond Mirzapore?—I 
mean the whole traffic ; the traffic beyond Mirzapore would have saved some 120 
miles, and the whole of the traffic of the Ganges Valley from Purneah and Tir- 
hook would have been brought to Rajmahal, and then brought down the line, 

0.61. I 4 thus 


Mr. G. Sibley. 
10 May 1858. 




72 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. G, Sibley. 
10 May 1858. 


thus saving the circuitous route by Sunderbunds, which forms the chief objection 
to the present river traffic. 

1099. Without pledging yourself very strictly to the opinion, do you think that 
the original direct line, if it had been carried out, would have been in operation in 
the present year?-—I believe ii might have been, with the exception of the cross¬ 
ing of the Soane, and perhaps one or two other large rivers. 

1100. Are you able to give the Committee any information upon the inter¬ 
ference with the progress of railway construction caused by the demand made on 
the part of the Government for labour and for carriage?—I do not think that the 
demand on the part of the Government for labour has interfered with railway 
construction, but the impressment of carriages has interfered with it to an enor¬ 
mous extent. 

1101. Do you think that the works under your superintendence were impeded 
by the impressment of carriages?—I am perfectly sure of it; we have been 
making representations to the Government on the subject for the last three 
years. 

1102. At what point was that impressment particularly felt ?—Over the whole 
district. 

1103. Was it an impressment of vehicles of all descriptions, and of animal 
power r—There is but one description, the common hackery. 

1104. Colonel Sykes.] Were they in your employ ?—They were. 

1105. Mr. Crawford .] Was there an impressment also of animal power ?—Yes. 

1106. Consisting of bullocks ?—Yes. 

1107. Can you describe the effect produced upon the native mind by that sys¬ 
tem of impressment ?—The evil is not to be measured by the number of carts 
seized, but by the fact that its becoming known that one or two carts have been 
seized is quite sufficient to induce the whole of the natives to abscond; the 
wheels are taken off, and are buried in tanks, and the bullocks are driven away 
to the jungles ; that will be produced by a single act of impressment, and for a 
fortnight after the regiment has left the locality not a single cart will be seen. 

1108. Is not the mind of a native particularly susceptible to an impression of 
that kind ; it is given to panic, is it not ?—Largely ; so much so, that when the 
late Act for impressment was passed, although it had not been put in force against 
Calcutta, the European firms there found that large numbers of their artificers 
and labourers were absconding, and, in consequence of that the Government 
of Bengal issued a notification in the “ Gazette,” which, if you will allow me, 

I will read. It is dated 5th February, and is in these terms : “ It having been 
brought to the notice of the Government that some apprehension prevails in 
Calcutta among labourers and artisans lest they should be made subject to impress¬ 
ment, under the Act 6 of 1858, and that some of the European firms at the Presi¬ 
dency have been put to serious inconvenience by the desertion of their workmen, 
it is hereby notified that the Act in question has not been extended to Calcutta or 
its vicinity, and is not in force there, and the Government at present sees no pro¬ 
bability of its being necessary to extend it.” 

1109. 1° point of fact it was the reaction upon the native mind which ren¬ 
dered the proclamation necessary?—At that time they were not aware of its 
having been proclaimed in other districts, but they were aware of the Act 
having passed. 

1110. Were you in India when the Act passed ?—I was not. 

1111. Are you able to give any information as to the consequence upon the 
railway interest, as to the prices and supplies generally, caused by the extreme 
amount of information required by the Government when applications are made 
to them to confirm contracts and purchases ?—As regards my own works such 
a previous sanction was not required, but I know of instances in the execution of 
other contracts. One case in particular is a characteristic one. In finishing the work 
of what we call section B, a portion of which is now open, and where the con¬ 
tractor had failed, a supply of lime was required, and an indent was sent in 
the usual course, asking for liberty to purchase a small amount of lime at, say 50 
rupees. In the ordinary course of things this came back in a fortnight with a 
sanction to purchase; but in the meantime the market had risen, and lime was 
then at 55 rupees ; a further indent was sent, and this came back after a similar 
period, when lime had again risen owing to a report that the lime boats had 
sunk in the river, and lime was then at 60 rupees; a third indent went through 
a similar course, but by the time it returned the report of the sinking of the 
boats was confirmed, and no lime was to be had in the market. 


1112. Is 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 73 

1112. Is that an extreme case ?—It is not an extreme case. 

1113. As I understand, it may he taken as a sample of the consequences pro¬ 
duced by the exact and minute satisfaction required by the Government upon all 
these points ?—It may be taken as a case of what may happen even where there is 
no neglect on the part of the Government officers. 

1114. Do you think that the minuteness of reference and explanation required 
on all points by the Government is productive of any effect on the minds of the 
engineering officers employed?—It doubtless has; it produces that certain depres¬ 
sion in the tone of energy that the absence of responsibility will always produce. 

1115. In point of tact, an engineer so employed, and subjected to such exac¬ 
tions, feels that he has no responsibility ?—He feels that the responsibility is 
divided between himself and the Government officer. 

1116. Chairman. j Does it not go a little beyond even what vou have described, 
and do you not feel, as a thoroughly educated civil engineer, that it is a certain 
amount of reflection upon your talents and experience?—It very much depends 
upon the men who may be appointed on the part of the Government; so far as my 
experience goes, I have been exceedingly fortunate in having good men, but we 
have no security that they may not be changed to-morrow, and that we may not 
get men altogether without experience; in fact, mere military engineers. 

1117. In that case, you would feel it a great hardship to be controlled by a 
man inferior in point of capability to yourself?—No doubt. 

1118. Mr. Crawford. j In your district you had rather more latitude and 
discretion, had you not, than would have been afforded under other circum¬ 
stances?—I had ; the district of which I had charge was ordered to be executed 
in that manner rather as an experiment. 

1119. Do you think that as an experiment it has been successful?—I think 
it has. 

1120. Upon general principles?—Upon general principles; I think we had 
every reason to be satisfied, both with regard to the manner in which it has been, 
worked, and with regard to the cost, as far as we can at present ascertain, and 
also as to the time. 

1121. Have you at all considered the result in profit and loss upon the view 
of pushing on works at an increased expenditure ?—I have, and I believe that 
on that subject very exaggerated notions prevail. Taking, for example, the extreme 
case of completing the work in four years as compared with eight years, sup¬ 
posing the expenditure to be evenly distributed over the whole period, and the 
amount to be spent in each year to be raised at the beginning of each year. 
In the first case, at the end of the first year, you would have to pay interest on- 
one quarter of the capital, in the second year on two-fourths, and so on ; the 
sum of the four terms being 10, which, divided by four, equals two and a half years 
on the capital, which, at live per cent., equals 12£ per cent, for interest while- 
unproductive during construction. In the second case, in the first year you 
would have to pay one-eighth, and in the second year two-eighths, and so on ; 
the sum of the eight terms being 36, divided by eight, equal to four and a half" 
years on the capital, or, at five percent., 221 per cent, for interest during con¬ 
struction, as compared with 12^ per cent, in the first case, leaving a difference of 
10 per cent., or, in other words, to effect a reduction of from eight to four years 
in construction, you would not he warranted, in a commercial point of view 7 , in 
paying, in the shape of increased prices, more than 10 per cent. 

1122. Mr. Stephenson.] The result is, that expedition is obtained at too costly 
a rate ?—Precisely. 

1123. Taking the most exaggerated case, you can suppose you have 22 per cent, 
to pay upon, and the cost of expedition would be more than that ?—Just so ; taking, 
the most extreme cases, it would only leave you a limit of lo per cent, addi¬ 
tional. 

1124. Are you aware of what has been the effect in this country of attempts 
made from time to time to obtain expedition ?—I am. 

1125. Do you know of any case in this country in which expedition has not 
been productive of an enormous expenditure of money ?—I know of no instance. 

1126. I suppose that would apply to India more than to England?—More 
forcibly ; there is there a very decidedly fixed limit to the rate of progress. 

1127. Chairman.'] I should like to ask you whether you consider the rate of 
progress in India has reached that limit ?—If I may be allowed to say so, I think 
that on the works of which I had charge of, it has. 

1128. Mr. Stephenson^] Your limit in India has been the amount of labour 

0.61. K you 


Mr. G. Sibley. 


10 May 1858* 



74 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. G. Sibley. 


10 May 1858. 


you could obtain?—It has; as a general rule von may assume that it takes half 
as long again to execute works in India as in England, and the reasons for that 
are, first, that you have to provide the whole of your materials, which here you 
go to the merchants for, as in the case of bricks, and when you have your mate¬ 
rials you have to transport them over a country with no roads. Again, as regards 
the supply of labour, almost all the works that have been hitherto executed in 
India have been executed by compulsory labour, and the consequence of that has 
been that when we first commenced our works we found the labourers all hanging 
back because they feared they would be compelled to labour, and were exceed¬ 
ingly uncertain as to whether they would be paid. 

1129. They felt that you would pay them if they worked?—They were secure 
from ill-treatment, and were sure of payment. 

1130. Colonel Sykes.] Did you commence with compulsory labour?—Not at 
all, and the consequence was that in the first instance the progress was ven r small. 

1131. The railway company used compulsory labour before you came there?— 
No. When we commenced our works we had so much difficulty that we could not 
get together sufficient men to erect bungalows for our shelter; that was about five 
years ago; and in the same district, when 1 leit on the 31st of December last, 
having treated the people fairly, we had collected together a force of 24,000 
workpeople over an extent of 45 miles. 

1132. Chairman .] You feel that you have rather a better character?—I believe 
we have gained their confidence. 

1133. Mr. Crawford .] What do you define to be compulsory labour ?—The 
definition is very simple. I call that compulsory labour where a man is told he 
must go and work at a certain work at a certain nominal price. 

1134. Supposing a man does not go?—He is put into prison. 

1135. Mr. Stephenson.] What do you mean by “nominal price”?—When a 
man is engaged upon such work he has paid to him daily a certain sum of money 
called korakee, which is just sufficient to keep body and soul together, leaving 
the adjustment of the account until the completion of the works; but owing 
to the number of hands that these payments have to go through, and the small 
interest which those who are charged with the works take in seeing the people 
paid, the result is that they generally get nothing more than the korakee. 

1136. Mr. Crawford.] Do you suppose that the Government officers employed 
have any cognizance of these facts ; take the case of an engineering officer of the 
Government being employed in the construction of barracks at a station, and com¬ 
pulsory labour being engaged ; do you suppose that that engineering officer is 
aware of the manner in which the labour is exacted from the people ?—It is not so 
exacted now. 

1137. Do you suppose that he was aware of it ?—I should suppose that he must 
have been generally aware of it. 

1138. Was it not a species of tyranny exercised by the natives who acted the 
part of contractors, and who employed the labour?—I have no doubt that he 
would be perfectly aware of the labour being compulsory, and he was so far to 
blame as regards the payment that he did not see that the men were paid. 

1139. Colonel Sykes.] Are there any courts in existence there ?—Yes. 

1140. What is there to prevent the men recovering their wages?—I know of 
nothing to prevent them, but I know that they never do. The expense of reco¬ 
vering the amount would probably exceed the amount recovered. 

1141. Mr. D. Seymour .] Is it not notorious that the officials, from the collec¬ 
tors up to the Governor-general, when on their journeys, are supplied with transport, 
the payment for which never reaches the people who supply the means of trans¬ 
port?—Yes, but seldom. 

1142. Colonel -Sy&es.] Do you know that ?—1 know that it is notorious. 

1 143. You mean that it is the talk ?—It is notorious. 

1144. Mr .Stephenson.] What are the wages given under the compulsory powers ? 
—I do not know ; under the present Impressment Act the magistrate has power 
to fix the price at which the people shall work. 

1145. Chairman.] That I suppose is represented by the minimum that will 
keep body and soul together ?—I do not know. 

1146. Mr. Stephenson.] Have you been over both the lines of railway ?—I 
have been over one entirely, and over a portion of the other. 

17 47- The difference, I believe, is about 120 miles in the length of the lines? 
—About 120. 

1148. Out of how many ?—In the proportion of 420 to 540. 


1149. That 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 75 

1149. That is one-fourth longer?—One-fourth longer. 

1150. Are your works upon the direct line heavier or lighter than they are 
upon the more circuitous one?—I think, on the whole, they are decidedly lighter 
on the direct line than on the other. Over about 150 miles of it, the earthworks 
would be decidedly heavier, but the bridging required over that length would be 
exceedingly light, and the whole of it on good foundations. 

1151. What would be the ruling gradient upon that line ?—As I remarked 
before, no very accurate section has ever been taken on that line, but I think it 
would be about 1,030 feet above the sea; and, from my own observation, I think 
there is no doubt that a ruling gradient of 1 in 200 might be obtained. An 
accurate section has been taken on a route tolerably near to that which was to go 
direct from Rmagung to Patna, and it was found that a ruling gradient of 1 in 
250 was obtai table up to the edge of the slope. On the route then taken it was 
found difficult to obtain good gradients further on, and therefore it was abandoned, 
but, on the mt in line, I have no doubt that 1 in 200 might be obtained. 

1152. May I assume that a ruling gradient of 1 in 200 might be obtained on 
that line, at * bout the same expense per mile as on the Valley line?—Certainly 
within tiiat. 

1 153- What is the ruling gradient upon the Valley line?—One in 500; the 
only exception being that ot the Seetapahar Hill. 

1154. I shall probably not be far wrong in assuming that 1 in 500 would be 
practically level ?—Practically level. 

1155. Have you ever considered the effect which that advance of gradient 
would ultimately have upon the cost of the locomotive power ?—I have never 
gone into it very carefully, as the question of direction was settled when I arrived 
in India ; but upon 1 in 200, as compared with 1 in 500, it would, no doubt, be 
greater. 

1150. Are you speaking of heavy goods traffic ?—Yes. 

1157. In which case the engines are loaded to about their maximum ?—Yes. 

1158. And where you have to convey goods 400 or 500 miles, of course care is 
taken that the engine shall carry full loads ?—No doubt. 

1159. Between Yorkshire and Lancashire a large coal traffic is carried on, as 
you know, and at a very low rate of fares; do you know the rate?—I do not. 

1160. I believe it is a halfpenny per ton per mile; that line, as you know, 
between Yorkshire and Darlington is practically level, and therefore it may be put 
in the same category as the valley line of the Ganges; do you know the weight of 
the loads they carry between Yorkshire and Darlington r—I do not. 

1161. Supposing we assumed it to be 360 tons; when that cheap coal train 
arrives at York, we will suppose that the ruling gradient on the Great Northern 
line is 1 in 200, the engines being the same ; if the traffic managers are compelled 
to reduce the load to 200 tons, what effect w r ould that produce upon the economy 
of the locomotive power?—Assuming the facts to be as you state, it would be 
considerable. 

1162. Assuming the load to be 360 tons at 3 s. 4 d. per ton, it would produce 
22 s. 6 d. per mile on the level line?—Yes. 

1163. At the same rate, on the other line, 22 tons at 3 s. 4 d. per ton would give 
an income of \ 2 s. 6 d. per mile?—Yes. 

1164. The difference between 12 s. 6 d. and 22 s. 6 d. is 10$. per mile, and 
therefore the engines upon the level line would earn 10 s. a mile more than upon 
the other line ; what is the average cost of locomotive power in this country, or 

in India?_I am not aware what it is in India; but it is very much less than 

it was. 

1165. Assuming it to be 2 5 . in this country, the locomotive power upon the 
level line as compared with the other would cost nothing ?—Supposing that is 
correct. 

1166. Would not that induce you to modify your opinion, not looking at the 

cost of making the line, but at the cost of working a large traffic ?—Most un¬ 
doubtedly, supposing those data to be correct. . 

1167-8. If the line from Calcutta to Benares, the direct line, proved inferior 
owing to that circumstance, what effect would that have upon the ultimate result 
by addins 400 or 500 miles at the Benares end ?—None. 

1169. Supposing you had been tied down to a gradient of 1 in 500, on the 
direct line, would the result have borne any comparison with the present one?— 
Without accurate sections, it is difficult to say; but I should think that on the 
main line we should not have exceeded it. On a portion of the line it would have 

0,6!. k 2 materially 


Mr. G. Sibley. 


10 May 1858. 




76 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. G. Sibley, materially exceeded that; but on the whole I think it would have been constructed 

-— for the same money. In India we find that the works which cost most in time and 

30 May 1858. money are not heavy excavations, but bridges over the rivers in soft alluvial bottoms. 

1170. If yon can state with confidence that the direct line might have had a 
ruling gradient of 1 in 500, and not have exceeded the other, then my previous 
questions fall to the ground in a great measure?—T am not prepared to state that 
with great confidence, from the fact that no careful examination of the country 
has been made, but I believe it generally to be so. 

1171. Have you travelled over the whole of the direct line ?—Twice. 

1172. Mr. Cheatham.'] What is the extent of the population over the direct 
line, as compared with the Valley Line?—The population on the direct line for 
about 150 miles of its length is exceedingly scarce. 

1173. And, of course, its agricultural products for that length of line are 
similarly deficient ?—Yes. 

1174. Will the navigation of the Ganges proceed as usual, although the Valley 
Line be made ?—I think a large proportion of the goods will go down as far as 
Rajmahal. The goods from Purneah and Tirhoot must be put into boats to go 
down to the line, and being once in boats, I think there can be no doubt that they 
will be brought down as far as Rajmahal, and then be transferred to our line. 

1175. Mr. Stephenson.] It has been suggested with regard to the engineering 
staff, that the Government of this country might also have a consulting engineer 
of their own, would that simplify and facilitate or expedite proceedings in this 
country, the company having its own consulting engineer also ?—I think it would 
be onlv introducing one more element of delay. 

1176. Mr. D. Seymour.] Do you not think that there will be sufficient traffic, 
both in the Valley Line and the line round by Rajmahal r—I think there is no 
doubt that both will be eventually made. 

1177. Mr. Stephenson.] When you said that the direct line, even with a gradient 
of 1 in 500, would not be more costly than the other, did you take into conside¬ 
ration that you have two branches to make over that line into the valiev, for the 
sake of accommodating a very large population ?—I took into account that we have 
one branch to make to Rajmahal, which is a distance of 120 miles. 

1178. For accommodating the valley of the Ganges, you would have the 
branch to make, on the one line and not on the other?—Yes. 


Mr. John Freeman , called in ; and Examined. 

Mr .J. Freeman. 1179. Chairman.] I believe you have resided for a very considerable time 
in India?—Upwards of 25 years in the district of which you have been talking, 
between Calcutta and Benares. 

ii 80. I believe you can give us some information on the subject of brick¬ 
making in that country ?—I can. 

1181. Give us the result of your own experience on that subject ?—As a large 
landowner and indigo planter, I had to erect considerable dwellings in different 
districts of Bengal, and at the time I left India bricks were sold at the rate of 
300,000 a lac ; the bricks were made by the contractor burned with wood, but 
of late years coal has been so much used to simplify the process, and therefore 
that is a great advantage; and for 30 miles above Calcutta on either side you 
see, and for 30 or 40 miles below Calcutta on the other side you see, nothing but 
brick kilns burning at some times of the year. They burned with coal because 
they could get broken coal and dust at a cheap rate, and the bricks they make 
are very superior because they are very regularly burnt. The use of coal has 
reduced the price of brickmaking. 

1182. From your knowledge and experience of that country, you <nve it as 
your opinion, as I understand, that the supply of bricks is almost unlimited ? 
— If you take the proper course, I mean to “say that it is possible to make 
bricks to any extent. I have passed through the works, and I have seen one- 
tenth of the number of people occupied, in the proper season of the year, in 
gathering material, preparatory to the dry season, because bricks can only be 
burnt between December and June, but during the other parts of the year when 
the waters are up, there are great facilities for conveying material, such as coal, 
and wood, and other things; and if you make proper use of the two seasons, and 
have a proper number of people at work, I maintain that you can make bricks to 
any extent. At a rough calculation I should say there are millions of kilns, and 

the 




SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 77 

the men take mud just as it is, without mixing up sand with it, put it into form, 
and in two days it is dry enough to put into the shape of little walls, and in a 
week or 10 days you may put them up in the shape of a pyramid. I am sure 
that no country can offer such facilities. 

1183. Is it not the fact that in Calcutta the soil is peculiarly adapted for the 
purpose?—All Bengal is alluvial. 

1184. Mr. D. Seymour .What would vou do in the way of contracting for the 
manufacture of bricks?—All that would depend upon the number of people 
employed to look after them. 


Jovis, 13 0 die Man, 1858. 


MEMBERS PRESENT. 


Honourable H. G. Liddell. 
Mr. C. Bruce. 

Mr. H. A. Bruce. 

Mr. T. G. Baring. 

Mr. Crawford. 


Sir J. Elphinstone. 
Mr. D. Seymour. 
Mr. Stephenson. 
Colonel Sykes. 


The Honourable H. G. LIDDELL, in the Chair. 


Mr. George Sibley , called in; and further Examined. 

1185. Mr. Crawford.'] ASSUMING the figures which Mr. Stephenson gave you 
on a former occasion to be correct, do you still think that goods would be carried 
more economically on the direct line?—I do; the exceptional gradients on that 
line do not extend over the whole length of it, but only 150 miles, and assuming 
that these figures are correct, the goods to be carried on the steeper gradient 
would only be fths of the full load, and that would be equal to doubling the 
locomotive expenditure over 120 miles, but the locomotive expenditure is only 
one item in the transit charges, amounting in the East India Railway to something 
dess than 47 per cent, on the whole, and as 1 20 miles is about the extent of line 

saved by the direct route, even adopting this view, more than half the distance 
would be practically saved. Further than that, this additional locomotive expen¬ 
diture should not be taken on the whole length of exceptional gradient, but only 
on half, the ascending plane, and that would bring the advantage equal to a saving 
of fths of the whole additional mileage. 

1186. What would be the difference in the expense of working the direct line 
with ruling gradient of 1 in 200 for 150 miles, as compared with 1 in 500?— 
Assuming again these proportions that the load would be only y-ths of the full 
load over 75 miles, or about Jth of the whole length of the line, £th being /yth, 
the expenditure on that length would be /3th of the whole ; deducting the T $th 
that would give an excess of or ; taking the locomotive expenditure on the 
East India Railway at 18 per cent, of the gross receipts, the increased cost would 
be Ff, or 2fths per cent, of the gross receipts. 

1187. Can you state what is the greatest load practically carried on lines with 
a ruling gradient of 1 in 200, as compared with that part of the railway now 
opened with the ruling gradient of i in 1,000?—On the Great Northern line the 
maximum load is 30 trucks loaded with tons, the trucks weighing 4! tons ; 
this gives a net maximum load of 225 tons, and a gross load of 360 tons. On 
that part of the East India Railway which is opened, with a gradient of 1 in 1,000, 
the maximum load is 35 trucks, loaded with 7 tons, the trucks weighing 5 tons; 
this gives a net load of 245 tons, and a gross load of 420 tons, being in the pro¬ 
portion of 7 to 6. On the South Western line, where the ruling gradient is 
1 in 240, the maximum load is 40 trucks, loaded with 5 tons, the trucks weighing 

.4 tons; this gives a net load of 200 tons, and a gross load of 360 tons, the same 
as the Great Northern. 

1188. Mr. Stephenson.] You have taken the locomotive expense at a certain 
.rate per cent, upon the gross receipts; 18 per cent., I think you say ?—Yes. 

1189. You are probably aware that my questions the other day had particular 
reference to goods?—Just so. 

1190. That was assumed to be a very important part of your traffic from the 
interior of the country ?—Yes. 

0.61. k 3 iigu You 


Mr. J. Freeman. 


10 May 1858. 


Mr. G. Sibley. 


13 May 1858. 








Mr. G. Sibley. 


13 May 1858. 


78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

1191. You are aware, I think, that the 18 per cent, of locomotive expense, as 
arrived at in this country, is by the mixing up of passenger with goods traffic ?—Yes. 

1192. Do you think that you can arrive at a fair result, taking the average cost 
in this country as compared with your mode of carrying goods in India?—Not as 
applied solely to goods. 

1193. My questions, the other day, had reference especially to goods i —I have 
not a sufficient recollection of your questions. 

1194. I asked you this question : “ Are you speaking of heavy goods traffic? 
Yes.”—“ In which case the engines are loaded to about the maximum? Yes.”— 
i( And where you have to convey goods 400 or 500 miles, of course care is taken 
that the engine shall convey full loads? No doubt.” Therefore all my questions 
had reference to goods?—My observation at present has not reference purely to 
goods. 

1195. Then in point of fact the ^0 you arrived at just now is upon the data 
taken in this country by mixing the locomotive expenses, including both goods 
trains and passenger trains?—Yes. 

1196. Do you think, after that suggestion, that the conclusion you have just 
drawn is borne out by the facts?—Not if applied to goods solely. 

j 197. Mr. H. A. Bruce.] You said just now that in estimating the additional 
cost of working the line through a country, with comparatively bad gradients, 
the cost was to be reduced by one-half, inasmuch as it was only on an ascending 
plane that the cost was increased, but 1 presume there is a great deal of additional 
wear and tear on the descending plane as regards the rails?—Not within the 
limits of 1 in 200. 

1198. Air. Stephenson.] Have you had any experience in the wear and tear 
of coal traffic, and heavy goods traffic, descending a gradient of 1 in 200 ?—I 
have not had charge of lines in operation with a gradient of 1 in 200. 

1199. Are you aware that all the down lines, as they are called, are those on 
which the wear and tear is heaviest ?—I am aware that that is so in the neigh¬ 
bourhood of London, but I have heard that ascribed, not to the descending incline, 
but to the pace at which the coal trains are run. 

1200. Mr. II. A. Bruce.] You have spoken of the ruling gradient as being 
1 in 500?—Yes. 

1201. Are there not considerable portions of the line at which the gradient is 
1 in 65 ?—I am supposing it constructed at no worse gradient than l in 200. 

1202. Mr. Stephenson.] You are supposing also that the construction is feasi¬ 
ble with gradients of 1 in 200 ?—In the present case with 1 in 200. 

1203. I understand you have not had correct sections taken throughout the 
whole length of the line?—We have not. 

1204. Therefore you give your answer with some limitation?:—Certainly. 

1205. Sir J. JElphinstone.] What is the nature of the articles you would have 
to carry, in the shape of goods, ever the direct line?—With the exception of 
indigo, we should carry the same articles as are carried by the Ganges route. 

1206. Cotton and jute?—Also grains and oil seeds. 

1207. Do you apprehend that there would be any great difficulty in carrying 
these at a slow speed over these gradients ?—I do not anticipate that there would 
be. One in 200 is accepted as a good working gradient in this country. 

1208. Are the calculations, about which you have just been asked, based upon 
a rate of about 20 miles per hour?—I am not aware that they related to any 
particular speed. 

1209. Air. Stephenson, as I understand, was asking you about the difference 
with respect to heavy traffic upon flat gradients, and upon gradients of 1 in 200? 
—I suppose the questions would refer to a somewhat similar speed as that at 
which the trains are run in this country, 20 miles per hour. 

1210. What is the speed you contemplate upon this railway for the description 
of goods that you are likely to carry ?—At present the running speed on the 
Indian lines is nearly the same as in this country, as regards goods traffic. 

1211. What is the worst gradient over the lines now open?—The worst gra¬ 
dient, I think, is 1 in 1,000. 

1212. Do you think that, practically speaking, it would be a matter of very 
great importance to the traffic of the Upper Provinces, whether it was carried at 
a slower speed over these gradients, which are very severe, instead of having the 
goods sent in a more circuitous direction ?—There would be no practical incon¬ 
venience in reducing the speed. At present we have only a single line, which is 
the reason, perhaps, why the goods trains travel faster than they otherwise would. 

1213. Have 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 79 

1213. Have you a good supply of hackerys in that country ?—When we first 
commenced upon the works we had great difficulty in collecting them, but they 
now come forward with great readiness. 

1214. What weight will one of those hackerys carry ?—It depends very much 
upon the roads over which they travel; over the ordinary unmetalled roads they 
carry half a ton. 

1215. Have they iron axles ?—Generally wood, but with the nave of the wheel 
protected bv an iron ring inside and outside. 

1216. Is there any regulation as to the axles?—There is no regulation. 

1217. As I understand you have found no difficulty in obtaining carriages of 
the description you require?—We have not now ; over 45 miles of country we 
have 4,000 hackerys at work. 

1218. Would there be much cutting on the direct line?—The cutting would in 
places be heavy. 

1219. But in no case with a gradient above 1 in 200 ?—I believe not. 

1 220. Mr. Crawford.~\ Are you aware of any facts by which you can show that 
the Government of India is, or has been, aware that a forced supply of carriage 
and labour has been resorted to, and in some cases not paid for?—Yes. In para¬ 
graph 24 of Lord Dalhousie’s minute of 20th April 1853, on Indian railways, 
and at page 118 he states, among the other advantages arising from the introduc¬ 
tion of railways, “ the heavy tax upon the people of district, which is inevitable in 
fact, by reason of the necessity of carriage for troops, would be removed.” And 
further, in August 1 857, when the present Lieutenant-governor of Bengal pro¬ 
posed the entire abolition of the compulsory supply of carriage transport it was 
stated in a letter, No. 1500, dated 29th August 1857, from A. R. Young, the 
Secretary of the Government of Bengal, to Cecil Beadon, Secretary to the Govern¬ 
ment of India, “ The Right Honourable the Governor-General in Council is well 
aware of the difficulties experienced in ordinary times in procuring supplies and 
carriage for the march of troops, and the distress and loss which are inflicted on 
the people, as well as the delay and inconvenience experienced by the troops/’ 
And further, he proposes this scheme “ so as to avoid pressing for those things at 
every time of need, to the great injury of agriculture and commerce, the discon¬ 
tent of the people, and the dilatory and imperfect performance of the service.” 
This scheme was sanctioned by the Government of India, and the Lieutenant- 
governor then, in waiting instruction to the commissioner appointed to superintend 
the supply, states, in official paper No. 2718, dated 22(1 September 1857, from 
A. R. Young, Secretary to the Government of Bengal, to J. R. Ward, Commis¬ 
sioner of Supply, “ That to which your most earnest and careful attention must be 
directed is, that while the troops are promptly and properly cared for, the people 
shall be absolutely and entirely relieved from that grievous detriment and oppres¬ 
sion which has so commonly arisen from the passage of troops through our districts, 
in consequence of the system of forced supply of every kind of goods, cattle, and 
carriage which has always been heretofore more or less in use.” 

1221. Mr. T. G. Baring. ] I think you stated that the company made use of 
compulsory labour to construct their works ?—I stated that the public works 
hitherto executed in Bengal had been all more or less performed by compulsory 
labour. 

1222. By that answer, do you mean the railway company?—No. 

1223. During the time that you were personally concerned with the works in 
India, was there any employment of forced labour to construct railway works?— 
None that ever came to my knowledge; certainly not on the works of which I 
had charge. 

1224. Did you hear of any forced labour being employed to construct railway 
works previous to your arrival in India?—No, I never heard of it. 


Mr. George Barclay Bruce, called in ; and Examined. 

1225. Chairman .] YOU are a Civil Engineer, I believe?—I am. 

1226. Have you been extensively engaged in the construction of railway works 
in India?—Yes. I went out to Bengal towards the end of 1851, and I was at 
the Calcutta end of the East India Railway for one year; after which I was 
removed to Madras, as chief engineer of the Madras Railway; I remained there 
for four years, when I came home on sick leave. 

0.61. k 4 


Mr. G. Sibley. 
13 May 1858. 


Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


1227. Will 




8o 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


13 May 1858. 


1227. Will you give the Committee some account of the early history of the 
Madras Railway?—I do not know of my own knowledge much about the very 
early history of it. 

1228. Can you say of your own knowledge when the company was formed? — 
In 1852; but they applied originally to Government for a guarantee, as early, 
I believe, as 1845 ; 1 cannot speak with certainty to that date, but I have been 
informed so by the chairman. 

1229. Can you speak to the early history of the company, from 1845 down to 
1S52?—No; the company was established with a chairman, and a deposit was 
paid up ; they applied for a guarantee, but could not get it, and the company was 
consequently broken up, but ultimately formed a second time, when they did 
obtain a guarantee; their contract was signed on the 22d December 1S52. 

1230. Was it upon the re-formation, if we may so call it, of the company that 
you were appointed the acting engineer of the line in India ? —Yes. 

1231. Was the local government of Madras favourable to the scheme when it 
was first proposed ?—They were favourable to the construction of a railway 
between the points named, but they were not favourable to its being undertaken 
by a joint stock company ; they wished to make it themselves. 

1232. What were the points named ?—The line was proposed to be made from 
Madras to Arcot, in the first instance, a distance of about 70 miles. 

1233. That was undertaken as an experimental line, I believe?—Yes. 

1234. Can you state when the scheme assumed its present development? — 
About the end of 1853; the further concession to the Madras Company of the 
line by Salem and Coimbatore to Beypoor and the Malabar coast was then made, 
with branch lines to Bangalore and to the Neilgherry Hills, with permission also 
to examine the country, with a view to its being undertaken to join the Bombay 
line at some point in the valley of the Kistna. 

1235. Is that the whole extent of line sanctioned and undertaken by the Madras 
Railway ?—Yes. 

1236’. You have stated to us the period at which the experimental portion of 
the railway system in Madras was undertaken ; will you state when the engineers 
arrived to commence the works?—I arrived in March 1853, and two assistants 
came out in May 1853. 

1237. Were your surveys then first commenced?—I began them in April 
1853. 

1238. When were they completed ?—We turned the first sod in July 1853, but 
the whole of the surveys were not completed at that time, because we had not a 
sufficient number of engineers, and we began to work two months after the 
engineers arrived. 

1239. When did you open the portion of the experimental line you have 
described to Arcot?—We opened it on the 1st of July 1856. I should observe 
that we had sanction only in the first instance to go on for about 50 miles, and 
subsequently we were allowed to complete the other 20, and that delayed the 
opening of the whole of the line. 

1240. If sanction had been given to the construction of the whole line at the 
same time, you think that you could have proceeded with the various sections pari 
passu, and that the whole might have been opened earlier than it was?—Undoubt¬ 
edly ; we did not begin the other part of it until fully 12 months afterwards. 

1241. Describe the system of railway construction pursued in Madras?—We 
adopted the system of doing the work without contractors. I could more con¬ 
cisely explain it to the Committee by reading a sentence or two from a report.. 

I refer to the report which I wrote at the end of the first year, when we had been 
two or three months at work, and it will explain in the most intellegible manner 
the reasons why we acted as we did ; I wrote “ It was found at the very corn? 
mencement, that we should not be able to avail ourselves, as in England, of the 
system of division of labour, which assigns to engineers the designing merely, and 
to another class, contractors, the execution ; leaving, in the language of my great 
master, Robert Stephenson, nothing for us, but the ‘ poetry of engineering.’ Here 
there is no such class; and where labour is cheap, work can be done by rude 
means at such low rates, as not to be sufficient to induce any contractor to bring 
the machinery and appliances to use in society far advanced in civilisation ; and 
the possession of which is one strong reason for the employment of contractors.. 
Knowing this to be the case, I never hesitated for a moment to put myself in the 

place 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 81 

place of contractor; as nothing could be worse than the only other alternative, 
'which was to place ourselves in the hands of men with no capital, and less 
honesty ; contractors to be found in the country. The plan pursued is, as you are 
aware, to let small contracts to parties who are able and willing to take them; or 
to deal with gangs of workmen themselves ; such agreements to be only binding so 
long as the parties concerned do their work efficiently: when this ceases to be the 
case the agreement ceases, as we take no security and give no advances. We 
resort to labour on daily hire only when obliged to do so, it being expensive and 
unsatisfactory.” 

1242. How have you found that system work ?—It worked exceedingly well. I 
am quoting this from selections from the correspondence of one year, and I would 
explain the working of the system by reading another sentence from another 
report. I refer now to the effects in rather a wild district near the Ghauts and 
Barmahal ; this explains our position: “ The appearance of Europeans in so wild 
a district, unarmed with power, vested with no authority, unconnected with the 
Government, was calculated to excite the astonishment and suspicion of the 
inhabitants; and when it was found that all labour was to be procured irrespective 
of the heads of villages, by holding our to the coolies themselves the inducement 
of a ‘ fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work,’ there instantly arose, on the part of 
all the inferior native officials, an amount of petty persecution and passive obstruc¬ 
tion, which can only be understood by those who have experienced it. I am 
happy to say that this opposition has been invariably broken down by the perse¬ 
verance of the engineers, and the people along the course of our line begin to 
understand the blessing of being able to carry their labour to the best market, with¬ 
out seeking the sanction, or caring for the pleasure, or ministering to the avarice 
of some petty tyrant; a result, the beneficial effects of which, in elevating the 
position of the people, we can scarcely calculate.” 

1243. What do you mean when you speak of yourselves as an independent 
company, unconnected altogether with the Government?—We were partly so; 
we went there quite as private individuals, and we had to fight our way as private 
individuals. I am not casting any reflection upon the Government; we were 
under the immediate sanction and protection of the Government, and were also 
furnished with the Government guarantee upon all our capital. 

1244. A Member of the Committee wishes to know whether the Government 
assistance had been applied for directly by the railway company, and if so, whether 
it had been granted or not?—We never applied for it; it was understood we 
were better without it, and 1 quite agreed with the Government on that subject; 
we never asked for it, and did not want it. 

1245. You have stated, I think, the date at which the first portion of the line 
was opened ; to what extent is the line opened at the present moment?—It was 
to have been opened on the 1st of May as far as Gooriattam, and 1 have no doubt 
that it is. 

1246. What is the whole length of the line ?—Ninety-seven miles. 

1247. Has the progress on your line been all that, in your opinion, it might 
have been ?—It has been on the whole very satisfactory; every portion of the 
line which has been opened has been opened within two years from the time of 
our getting possession of the land, and setting to work; but I admit that it has 
not been all that it might have been. 

1 248. When you say it has not been all it might have been, to what cause 
do you attribute the delay P—I think that the way in which the contract between 
the company and the Government has been carried out has been prejudicial to 
the progress of the works; and 1 think also we have always had too small a staff 
to carry on such an extensive undertaking. 

1249. You say you attribute the delay in some measure to the Government 
supervision. Can you state in w hat way you consider the supervision to have been 
objectionable ?—I should like, before answering that, to guard myself by saying 
that l accord to the officials of the Company credit for the same good intentions 
and honourable feeling and uprightness as I would claim for myselt; but I think 
that their superintendence was prejudicially minute; that it was frequently exer¬ 
cised ungenerously (I wish I could use a milder term), so as to be very disheart¬ 
ening, and burdering on the petty. 

1250. In your opinion was the principle upon which the Government super¬ 
vision was exercised a sound or an unsound principle ‘i —I think it was based on 

o.(ii. L an 


Mr. G . B . Bruce . 
13 May 1858, 


82 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


13 May 1858. 


an unsound principle; I think it was based on carrying out the letter of the con¬ 
tract rather than the spirit of it, and that in that way we were led into mis¬ 
understandings, where there ought to have been none. I think the spirit of the 
contract is this, that the railway company, through theiy officers, are quite com¬ 
petent to conduct their own affairs, and but for the guarantee would do so. 
The Government, however, to guard themselves against any extravagance, retain 
a general power of check, which they may exercise for their own protection 
whenever they think it necessary; instead of this, however, the control has been 
exercised as though the railway company's officers were incompetent to the v/ork 
for which they were selected, and that the want of experience and ability was to 
be supplied by the experience and ability which the Government officers brought 
into play; and this, although the officers of the railway company were selected 
with the sanction of the Government in the first instance. The control which, 
I believe, the Home Government wished should be exercised, and which was 
conceded by the railway company was, a general control to protect their own 
interests; but that exercised in India has gone far beyond this, and has been pro¬ 
ductive of no public good, but, on the contrary, of very much evil. 

1251. Finding that the system was not working satisfactorily, did you send 
any remonstrances to this country upon the subject?—I did; of course I do not 
know what our directors did. We certainly got no redress; but Mr. Walker, 
perhaps, will be better able to answer questions upon that subject. 

1252. Can you illustrate, by any specific examples, what you consider is the 
unsoundness of the system pursued? —I can show the way in which the control 
was exercised, and I will show it in the first instance, if you will allow me, by 
reading one or two extracts from reports, and I will endeavour to show that we 
were met in a somewhat ungenerous way in the reports of Government periodi¬ 
cally, and then I will endeavour to show from the same source that those remarks 
were unfounded. 

1253. At what periods were those reports furnished, and what is the nature of 
them; were they furnished to the Board of Works Department in Madras?— 
Some of them are the reports of the consulting engineer to Government; others 
are minutes of consultation by the Governor in Council, published by the Govern¬ 
ment. I have access to no document, except the selections made by the Government 
officers in Madras. 

1254. Which are termed Minutes of Consultation ?—They are termed “ Reports 
of the Railway Departments, published by authority.” As I observed, we be^an 
w ork in the beginning of July, and we had been only two months in the country, and 
yet we had made all our surveys, and staked out our line; we had arranged our 
plan of carrying on the works ; we had arranged our plan of accounts, and had done 
everything of that kind within two months after the arrival of the engineers. I am 
now about to refer to a letter addressed by Colonel Pears to the Government, dated 
24th of August 1853. 

1255. Who is Colonel Pears?—He is the consulting engineer for railways in 
Madras. I do not accuse Colonel Pears; I give him credit for the same integrity 
of purpose as I claim for myself. I believe he did everything that he believed to be 
conscientiously right. He says: “ The Progress Report (E.) submitted bv the 
agent shows that earthwork to the amount of 35,338 cubic yards, and masonry to 
that of 108 cubic yards, have been executed during the month of July. This can 
be considered as a beginning, certainly, but not, it may be hoped, as a measure of the 
monthly progress hereafter.” Considering that we had done what had never before 
been done in Bengal, or anywhere else, that we had got to work in two months 
after the arrival of the engineers, and considering that this was the first report upon 
our progress, I think that this was a little severe. Then we will take the next 
report, which was in the month of October 1854. It should be recollected that 
we had done 100,000 cubic yards of earthwork. He says : “ He does not appre¬ 
hend that the monsoon need much interfere with the engineer’s operations, but he 
fully expects that, after the termination of the usual rains, the works of all descrip¬ 
tion will proceed at a much more rapid rate than hitherto, and he looks to the 
energy of Mr. Pruce and his assistants for their being then vigorously carried 
on.” We had done 100,000 cubic yards, although we had scarcely had time to 
breathe. 

1256. Can you state the number of hands you had employed upon the line at 
that time ?—I cannot. 

1257. Had 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 83 

12 57* you any difficulty in procuring labour when you first arrived?— 
At some parts, until they gained confidence in us; but as a rule, we had no 
difficulty when they found that we paid well. 

1258. Your mode of payment was regular and punctual, was it not?—When¬ 
ever we had the money we paid regularly; our plan was to pay by tickets every 
night, and to cash those tickets whenever the labourers chose; but as a rule, we 
cashed them once every week. 

1259. You have been referring to the monthly report; what was the purport 
of the half-yearly report ?—In the second paragraph of the report of the consult¬ 
ing engineer, at the end of the year, namely, the 25th of April 1854, he says, 
“ the progress of the work has been, under the circumstances, considered most 
satisfactory.” 

1260. Was that the first half-yearly report?—Yes; the first half-yearly report, 
and it was at the commencement of our proceedings. 

1261. I asked you to specify certain instances in which you considered that the 
Government supervision was unduly exercised, and was productive of annoy¬ 
ance to yourselves, and some delay to the progress of the works ?—If you will 
allow me, I will refer to a letter of tire 18th of April 1854, in which the consult¬ 
ing engineer writes : “ The earthwork in district No. 2, and the brickwork in 
district 1, are alike unsatisfactory ; the former amounts to 75,889, the latter 
to 455 cubic yards.” Then the Governor in Council decided: “ The progress 
does not appear satisfactory, either in earth or brickwork, and the Government 
desirethat a communication to the effect of the consulting engineer's remarks 
be made to the agent and chief railway engineer.’’ Then on the 25th of May 
1854, the consulting engineer writes: “ On district No. 1, the progress in earth¬ 
work during March is fair ; that in masonry very satisfactory.” On the 15th June 
1854, die consulting engineer writes : “ I regret again to observe upon the unsa¬ 
tisfactory character of this report.” On 19th September 1854, the Governor in 
Council writes : “ The Right Honourable the Governor in Council cannot but 
regard the progress made during the month of May last, in the three districts 
referred to, as very unsatisfactory, and he resolves to bring the matter specially to the 
notice of the Honourable Court, with a view to its being represented to the directors 
of the railway company. The consulting engineer will inform the agent of the inten¬ 
tion of the Government to make the above communication to the home authorities.” 
I had previously explained to them that, so long as the ground was so hard (it being 
then the very hot weather), I could not make the same progress in the earthworks 
without going to a very extravagant expenditure, because the people would require 
double the price to do it. On the 28th November 1854, the Right Honourable 
the Governor in Council, acting upon information given to him by the consulting 
engineer, said: “ The reports of progress, forwarded with the chief railway engineer’s 
letters of the 25th October and the 14th November, continue of the same unsatis¬ 
factory charaeteras those lately received ; they will be forwarded to the Honourable 
Court with reference to the despatch from this Government, dated 22d instant.” 
That is the character of the remarks with which we were favoured from month 
to month, and which, to men who were doing the utmost of their strength, and 
beyond it, were very disheartening. Now, as to the justice of these remarks. If 
you w ill allow me, I will show what, at the end of the year, Colonel Pear’s report 
was. After he had marched along the line with me, he writes in his annual report, 
dated 15th May 1855 : “ The progress of the work generally has been satisfactory, 
and will bear very favourable comparison with similar works in other parts of the 
world.” The Governor in Council, on the 16th May 1855, made this remark : 
“They are, however, gratified to find it recorded in paras. 10 and 22, that ‘the 
progress of the work generally has been satisfactory, and will bear very favourable 
comparison with similar works in other parts of the world ;’ and that the progress 
in the first three districts has been and continues to be sufficiently good to justify 
the expectation that the line, as far as Arcot, will be opened for traffic before the 
end ot the present year.” This shows the character ot the supervision, and it 
could not fail to have a very injurious effect. 

1262. In your opinion were these observations and strictures passed upon 
persons in your position, entrusted with the spending of thousands of pounds, 
annoying, and productive of some degree of soreness and ill feeling in your minds? 
—Certainly ; those remarks did not refer to me individually, so much as to the 
engineers acting under my orders, and I know the effect upon their minds was 

0.61. l 2 very 


Mr. G. B. Bruct. 


13 May 1858* 



8 4 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. G. B.Bruce, very disheartening ; I kept them in as good spirits as I could, but it was very 

—- difficult under these circumstances to get men to work with spirit. 

13 May 1858. 1263. Mr. Crawford^] What are the documents from which you have been 

reading?—The book I have in my hand contains selections from correspondence, 
and records of one year of the Madras Government with reference to railways. 

1264. Are they to be obtained by purchase at Madras?—Yes. 

1265. Have not the Madras Government a room, to which the editors of news¬ 
papers have access, for the purpose of perusing such documents as the Govern¬ 
ment may choose to place in that room for perusal ?—Yes ; and that has been 
productive of very great evil, inasmuch as documents have by that means found 
their way into the public papers, reflecting upon the conduct, and almost upon 
the characters of engineers, sometimes without at the same time giving the 
reply. 

1266. Do you know any instance of strictures having been passed upon the 
officers of the railway company, by the Government having placed documents in 
that room, for the perusal of editors of newspapers, before an opportunity has been 
given to the parties, to whom those observations refer, to make any representation to 
the Government in reply?—There is only one instance that I can call to mind at 
this moment, and that was a case towards the beginning of 1856, I think, when 
strictures appeared in the newspapers, and a letter I had written in explanation 
did not appear. There were others; hut these books do not afford me an oppor¬ 
tunity of showing it. I know that one of the engineers since 1 left wrote a letter, 
very unwisely, I think, to the newspapers, on that very subject, complaining of 
it; and the directors of the Madras Railway wrote home to the Government 
here, complaining of that; and the Government here, I understand, took a very 
proper view of the case, and wrote out to the local Government, requesting that 
it might not occur again. 

1267. Did it occur again within your knowledge ?—Not within my knowledge. 

1268. You had no means yourselves of replying to any such strictures as those 
referred to ?—No ; in fact I never saw Colonel Pears’ remarks until I saw them 
in the blue book a year afterwards. 

i 269. Then, in point of fact, the effect of the publication of this newspaper in 
Madras, was to put before the public an exparte statement of the views that Go¬ 
vernment took in reference to the affairs of the railway company ?—Yes. 

1270. And you had no means of protecting yourselves against such effects as 
might be produced upon the public mind?—We had no proper means; we were 
bound by our agreement not to write letters to the newspapers. 

1271. You were bound by your agreement with the railway company, not to 
resort to the public newspapers as a means of making known any matters of fact, 
or of expressing your opinion ?—Yes. 

1272. You were in point of fact then defenceless, while the Government held 
all the power in their own hands ?—Yes. 

1273. And they used that power to a very great extent?—Certainly; I do not 
say that they intentionally published one-sided accounts, but that was practically 
the effect. 

1274. Mr. T. G. Baring.’] When you say that one-sided accounts were pub¬ 
lished, do you mean that the Government published them?—I mean to say that 
the Government laid upon the editor’s table certain documents, and that only one 
side appeared in the papers. 

l 275. Mr. C. Bruce.] These papers you have read, as I understand, were made 
known to the Government ?—Yes. 

1276. Might it not be inferred by you and other parties, from the nature of 
these remarks, that there was great anxiety on the part of the local government to 
forward the works as much as possible ?—We knew that the works were going on 
as fast as possible, and that the effect of the remarks was the very reverse, what¬ 
ever the intention might be. 

1277. Mr. Crawford.] Y ou stated at the commencement of your evidence, as 
I understood, that there was a feeling of disappointment on the part of the 
officials at Madras, that the railway was not made by the Government?—T said 
that they had expressed a wish to have it made through their own agency, and I 
know that that opinion has been again expressed with regard to the extension of 
the line; I do not think that I said there was a feeling of disappointment on their 
minds. I was asked the question, whether the Madras Government were favour¬ 
able 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 85 

able to its being undertaken ; and I said, that they were, but that they wished to 
undertake it themselves, and did not desire that it should be in the'hands of a 
joint stock company. 

1278. How do you know that there was that feeling on the part of the Govern¬ 
ment?—It appears in the printed reports before the railway began. 

1 279. Did you hear that opinion expressed by any of the Government officials 
after you had gone to Madras in the service in the Company ?—I am not sure 
that I heard it expressed with regard to our identical line, but with regard to 
other lines projected in the Presidency, and which would run into ours, have. 

1280. Mr. C. Bruce.~\ Do you wish the Committee to infer that your opinion 
is, that these censures were rather with a view of discouraging the making of the 
railway by the Company instead of by the Government ?—No; I do not state 
that, I do not wish to go further than to state facts. 

1281. Considering the guarantee given by the Government, and the interest 
they had in the works, do you think it was unreasonable that they should express 
an opinion as to the mode in which the works were carried on ?—Not at all. 

1282. But you think their inspection went further than was necessary?—I 
think the opinions given month by month, ought to correspond with the opinions 
given at the end of the year, and if they found at the end of the year that the 
works were going on well, they ought to have spared us the censures month by 
month. 

1283. Were the monthly censures published at the end of the year ?—They 
came out in the public papers, many of them. 

1284. Before the final report which seemed to contradict that first statement ? 
—Yes. 

1285. The final contradiction did not, you think, counteract the prejudicial 
effect produced by the monthly censures?—Our directors at home, I have been 
given to understand, were in a state of serious alarm at the way in which they 
supposed the works to be going on, in consequence of these monthly reports, and 
it was only when their minds were set at rest by the reports at the end of the 
year, and their sending out a new agent in the beginning of 1855, that they were 
reassured. 

1286. Your opinion is that the monthly reports ought not to have been made 
public until the yearly report came out ?—I vvould not object to the monthly 
reports if they had been what I considered correct. 

1287. Mr. H. A. Bruce .] I understand you to complain of the one-sided pub¬ 
lications in the newspapers. Do you also complain of the selection from the 
records of Government as giving the case of the Government officers with greater 
force than that of the engineers of the railway company ?—I should be sorry 
to say anything to lead the Committee to imagine that the Government officers 
would intentionally do such a thing, but on looking through these reports I find 
that there are a great many letters of mine which I would rather have seen here. 

1288. Up to this time vou confine vourself to the question of vexatious criticism? 
—Yes. 

1289. I suppose the effect of these unfounded reproaches might have been 
to call for examinations which would have led to extravagant and unreasonable 
expenses ?—It might have been so. 

1290. Or by shaking the confidence of the directors at home it might have let 
to your removal?—Yes ; or unless one looks beyond these things, the effect might 
have been to make a man in despair fold his arms and let things take their course. 
I might almost say that the Governor in Council, on the 8th April 1 856, shortly 
before we opened, wrote a minute which was very strong and severe upon the 
subject of the line not being opened. He says, “ Thus, then, it is clear that the 
want of bolts and nuts had nothing to do with the delay. The real cause 
being, that in no one department appertaining to the railway chief engineer 
were the works sufficiently advanced to permit of the line being opened.” This 
was sent to the Honourable Court of Directors, and after the line had been 
opened, the Court, writing on the 16th July 18.56, say, “We look upon the 
completion in so short a space of time of a work of this importance (the greater 
portion of the materials for which were supplied from this country) as a great 
achievement.” 

1291. That quotation is your answer to the complaint of the Governor in 
Council ?—Yes. 

0.61. l 3 1292. Colonel 


Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


13 May 1858. 



86 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. G.B. Bruce. 1292. Colonel Sykes.~\ Are you aware of the view of the Court of Directors in 

.. — regard to the supervision exercised by Colonel Pears ?—1 have been given to 

13 May 1858. understand from the highest authority that the Court have acted fairly and 
uprightly in the matter, and have done everything they could to have the super¬ 
vision placed upon a proper footing, but that it has been ignored. 

1293. By whom?—By the authorities there; at all events the effect towards 
ourselves has been unaltered by the orders of the Court, which I believe to have 
been sent out. 

1294. Are you aware of the orders of the Court with regard to the publication 
of correspondence between the railway officers and the Government officers ?— 
Yes ; the Court I understand have sent out orders that that is to cease, and it is a 
very proper and desirable thing. 

1295. The practice of publishing letters of controversy is to cease altogether? 
—Yes. 

1296. And that the information given to the public is to be confined to 
matters of fact?—I understand that to be the case. 

1297. Are you aware also that orders have been sent out to relax the super¬ 
vision exercised over the railway officials?—I have heard so. 

1298. The Government having by contract the right of supervision over the 
railway officials, in case their officer differed in opinion with the railway, was it not 
his duty to express that opinion to the railway officials, and to state the reasons 
for that opinion ?—Yes, I should say so. 

1299. Did he express those opinions in an offensive manner to the railway 
officials?—Yes, 1 ihink so; I do not mean to say that the words were ungentle- 
manly ; I should be sorry to say so, but the effect was offensive. 

1300. He expressed in decisive terms the opinion he entertained, in opposition to 
opinions entertained by the railway officials?—Yes. 

1301. Would you say that they were intentionally offensive?—No. 

1302. In fact he was exercising his duty according to his apprehension of what 
his duty was ?—I think so, but I think it was a mistaken view of what was intended 
in the contract, and. of the kind of supervision that it was intended should be 
exercised. 

1303. Are you aware that the monsoon in the Madras territory commences 
only in October ?—Yes. 

1304. When the monsoon in Bengal and Bombay terminates ?—Yes. 

1305. They are distinct?—Yes. 

1306. Mr. D. Seymour.] When you say that the local Government wished to 
have the railway made not by a company, do you mean Sir H. Pottinger’s Govern¬ 
ment ?—Yes. 

1307. Did you hear of Lord Harris expressing an opinion that railways should 
not be made by a company?—No. 

1308. You have no reason to suppose that the opinions of Sir H. Pottinger 
were shared by the Government which succeeded him ?—I have no reason to 
know it; it was in reference to the very commencement of the undertaking that 
1 gave that evidence, anil I have not made any allusion to subsequent events. 

1309. You do not think that the opinion of the former local Government was 
the cause of the difficulty you experienced at a later period?—No ; the Govern¬ 
ment officers are only men like ourselves, and I do not think it unlikely that they 
had a sort of lingering wish that they should make the railway themselves. 

1310. Do you think that was shared by all?—Yes. 

1311. You do not think that it was a disputed opinion amongst engineering 
officers in Madras as to who were the best parties to make the railway?—I could 
not give an answer to that. 

1312. You are not aware that influential engineers were in favour of the com¬ 
pany ?—-No. 

1313. Do you not think that the monthly censures might have been the cause 
of the very satisfactory return at the end of the year ?—I think rather the 
reverse ; if anything done by the Government had the effect of stimulating us 
onwards, I think it was their expression of satisfaction. 

1314. When the railway was commenced, was not a time fixed at which each 
section should be opened?—I think what I have always said is, that we could 
finish any section within two years from the time of its commencement. 

1315. Did you open at the time you anticipated?—We did not; but it was 
only because we did not open to the point we intended. We began with 50 

miles, 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS;. 87 

miles, and it was thought not desirable to open the 50, and we therefore waited Mr. G. B. Bruce. 
until the remaining 15 miles were completed. - 

1316. You have opened it, I believe, at the rate of about 10 miles a year?— *3 Mavi858. 

Every section has been opened within two years of its commencement. 

1317. In how many years have you completed the 70 miles ?—We have 
opened 97 miles. 

1318. In how many years?—Every section has been opened within two years 
of the commencement, and I would undertake to make 400 iniies as soon as 40, 
if you will give me the staff and the materials. 

13 T 9* The progress was not considered satisfactory by persons in this country, 
was it ?—The Court of Directors considered it an achievement. 

1320. Are you aware whether the public have expressed an opinion as to the 
slow progress of railways in India?- Yes, I am aware that they have. 

1325. Are you aware that indigo planters in the interior of the country have 
also expressed an opinion that the progress was not made which might have been 
made?—There are no planters in Madras. 

1322. Do you know Mr. Fisher?—Yes. 

1 3 2 3 - T>o you know his opinion?—No; I do not think he knew anything 
about it. 

1324. Are you aware that he has expressed an opinion?—No, I am not; I 
have said that the progress was not all that it should have been. 

1325. I believe that reports from some sections were far more satisfactory than 
those from others ?—That is always the case. 

1326. What the Government asked you to do was to urge on those engineers 
whose progress had not been satisfactory?—I think every engineer, from one end 
of the line to the other, was censured at some time or other. 

1327. Was that what the Government asked you to do? —I do not remember. 

1328. And which you yourself considered unsatisfactory ?—Sometimes we 
agreed, of course. 

1329. Will you put in the letters which you say have been omitted in the 
records ?—I have no copies of those letters in this country ; they are in Madras; 

I do not make any charge upon that subject; but there are letters which I should 
like to see published with these. 

1330. Would you not think it desirable that the orders of the Court of Direc¬ 
tors directing a relaxation in the supervision should be published?—I think it 
would be very desirable. 

1331. To show whether they are sufficiently stringent to induce the local 
Government to act upon them r—I think so. 

1332. If it is a mere expression of opinion on the part of the Court of Direc¬ 
tors, the local Government probably would not feel themselves bound to act 
upon it?—I believe they have done so repeatedly. 

1333. I suppose a good deal depends upon the terms of the orders sent out ?— 

Yes. 

1334. Do you know whether any such orders have been sent out ?—I have 
never seen them, and I have reason to think that they have not. 

1335. Do you know when the modified instructions respecting supervision 
was sent from this country ?—I am not aware, but I think they have been sent 
since 1 left India. 

1336. I believe some were sent upon a previous occasion which were not acted 
upon ?—I heard of some. 

1337. It made no difference in the system practised by the Government ?—No. 

1338. Mr. Stephenson .] Do any of your letters in reply to this report of 
Colonel Pears, appear in these collections from which you have been reading ? 

—Some of them. 

1339. Sir/. Elphinstone.] I understood you to say that you had had great 
difficulty in procuring native labour for your work?—We had plenty of unskilled 
labour, but with regard to skilled labour we had great difficulty. 

1340. I suppose you had great difficulty in procuring builders, bricklayers and 
carpenters ?—We had great difficulty in getting them to do their work well. 

1341. Was it during the period that you were collecting the labour, that these 
difficulties occurred with the Government?—No, they continued up to the end. 

1342. You had upon ail occasions as many labourers as you could employ ?— 

With few exceptions we had. 

1343. But the railway was in itself of an independent character?—Yes. 

0.61. l 4 1344- Have 



88 


minutes of evidence taken before the 


Mr. C. B. Bruce- 1344. Have you the same difficulty now as regards labourers r We are 
-getting a better class by degrees, undoubtedly. 

13 May 1858. 1345. Do you not suppose that you could now open a very much greater 

extent of line in the same time than you could do when you first began? I doubt 
that very much. 

1346. The improvement is not so marked as to enable you to speak confidently 

in that respect ?—No. ^ 

1347. Who are the planters to whom Mr. Danby Seymour referred ?—There 
are a few indigo planters; but I do not know of more than one European indigo 
planter. 

1348. Is that at Salem ?—Yes ; Mr. Fisher. 

1349. Colonel Sykes."] Have you any sugar planters?—I do not know that 
sugar is grown by the natives. 

1330. Sir/. Elphinstone.] Is Mr. Fisher a man of large property?—Yes; he 
has a zemindary in his own hands. 

1351. Has he ever seen your works ?—I do not know that he ever has ; but he 
was a good friend to us when we first went to Salem. 

1352. You have not run through any part of the country where there were 
European planters?—No. 

1353. Mr. T. G. Baring .] Are there any expressions in reports which you have 
not read, of which you complain more than of those you have read to the Com¬ 
mittee?—I had made a memorandum of several; but I have only referred to a few 
of them. 

1354. Is there in those any language stronger than the term “ unsatisfactory ”? 
—I think there is one stronger ; in the last they said, that the causes to which I 
had ascribed the non-opening of the line were not correct; I did not read the 
whole of that passage, but it almost amounted to saying that I had stated that 
which was untrue. 

1355. I was referring to the consulting engineer's report?—This is the minute 
of consultation of Government, based upon these reports, and 1 think the usual 
expression was “ unsatisfactory.” 

1336. Y r ou complain of the expression of the consulting engineer, that your 
work was unsatisfactory?—Yes, coupling that with his remark in the annual 
report, that it was satisfactory. 

1357. One of the unsatisfactory reports I think is dated on the 18th April, and 
is addressed to the agent and chief engineer ?—Yes. 

1338. Was that communicated to you?—I have no doubt it was. 

1359. Did you offer any explanation to the Court of Directors in answer to that 
report ?—There is no letter of mine given in the book regarding that, so that 1 
am not able to answer that question. 

1360. You do not know' whether your explanation was sent to the Court of 
Directors or not ?—I have not the means of knowing. 

1361. Upon what did Colonel Pears make these reports ; was it upon personal 
knowledge?—No; we sent in a statement every month of the number of yards 
completed in each district, with a remark of whether it was more or less than 
usual. 

1362. Had he no other information than those returns?—No; and in most of 
these cases I had not seen the works. 

1363. Had he no other engineer, who saw the works as they were going on ? 
—No; I am thankful to say he had not. 

1364. It was from your own reports?—Yes. 

1365. In those reports did you state the reasons why you did not make pro¬ 
gress?—In many cases I thought the progress satisfactory, but when I thought 
there was occasion to give any explanation, I did it. 

1366. Do you consider that Colonel Pears was capable of forming a judgment 
as to what ought to have been the progress of the works ?—If I were to give a 
simple answer I should say “ no, ” but I ought perhaps to qualify it; I think he 
was not qualified to do it. 

1367. On what do you ground that opinion ?—He had not had much experience 
in works of that character. 

1368. Has he been employed on civil engineering works in Madras?—I do not 
know much of that; he is an able man, but I think he had been probably less 
employed on civil engineering works than any engineer in the Madras corps of his 

standing; 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 89 

standing, be bad been more engaged as a military engineer, and was, I believe, a 
very good one. 

1369. Did Colonel Pears ever personally inspect the works ?—Yes ; generally, 
when he inarched along the line with me, and in almost every such case, his 
reports were that the works were satisfactory. 

1370. How often did he march along the line with you ?—I should think about 
once a year. 

1371. Previous to his annual report?—Yes; perhaps it might have been 
oftener than that. 

1372. Do you think that the tone of the monthly reports, which you have 
objected to, created delay in the construction of the railway ?—1 think so, in con¬ 
sequence of their creating a feeling of dissatisfaction, against which it is impossible 
for the most conscientious man to stand up. 

1373. You think, that because the Government engineer considered your pro¬ 
gress on certain points not satisfactory, therefore you and the other engineer 
relaxed your efforts ?—No, we did not relax them willingly, or intentionally ; but 
so much of our time was taken up in replying to those things, and so much sore¬ 
ness was produced by them, that it could not fail to have its effect. 

1374. Chairman.'] Discouragement was the feeling under which you laboured? 
—Yes; I do not mean to say that, in every case, when the proceedings were con¬ 
sidered unsatisfactory, that they were not so; but what I objected to was, that the 
Government engineer should fix upon faults, and represent them as characteristic 
features of our whole proceeding. 

1375. Mr. T. G. Baring.] As I understand, your objection was more to the 
publication of these reports than to their being made r—Not only that, but also 
to the fact of their being written, because they came to our directors, and to the 
directors at home. 

1376. In the position in which Colonel Pears found himself placed, was he not 
bound to give to the Government his honest opinion ?—I do not think that he was 
bound to do it from month to month. 

1377. You consider that the reports were too frequent?—Much too frequent. 

1378. That is w'hat you complain of?—That led to what we complain of; if he 
had contented himself with reporting at the end of the year, I do not think that 
this unpleasantness would have arisen. 

1379. Mr* Crawford.] In what works had you been employed in this country 
before you went to India?—I was a pupil of Mr. Robert Stephenson,, and had 
served my time with him for six years; after that I was with him for eight years 
more, so that I was, altogether, 14 years with him before I went out to India. 
I was in his manufactory for some years, and 1 was then engineer upon the 
Newcastle and Darlington Railway for a short time, under Mr. Harrison and 
Mr. Stephenson; I was then resident engineer to the Newcastle and Berwick 
Railway, a distance of 11 miles. I built the Royal Border Bridge over the 
Tweed, also under Mr. Harrison and Mr. Stephenson ; I was afterwards engineer 
on my own account for the Alston branch of the Newcastle and Carlisle line. 
I conducted some other works, and then subsequently went out to work upon 
the East India Railway in 1851. 

1380. In point of fact, then, you had had considerable experience upon which 
you form an opinion that the progress you had made in Madras was satisfactory .■* 
—Y es. 

1381. Were your communications with the consulting engineer of the Govern¬ 
ment of Madras of a verbal or of a written character ?—I think all our verbal 
communications were pleasant and agreeable; the written communications have 
caused all the mischief; personally, I was on the best terms with Colonel Pears 
the whole time I was there. 

1382. Did the consulting engineer upon any occasion point out to you how 
the progress which in his judgment was unsatisfactory could be advanced ? We 
very often used to talk over the matter, and if I must tell the real truth, Colonel 
Pears’ opinion was that we were doing exceedingly well, and that I should get 
oreat credit for the works and for the progress that had been made upon them; 

I do not mean to say that he would tell me one thing privately, and that he 
would say another in writing, but in writing he presented one phase as our 
deficiency, and represented that as being the general characteristic of the whole 

"°i 3*83 Then, as I understand, you were never indebted to the consulting 
o.6 1. M engineer 


Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


13 May 1858. 





Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


33 May 1858. 


90 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

engineer for any information which enabled you to make better progress in the 
execution of the works ?—No; I have often received assistance from many men 
out there of local experience, and of course from Colonel Pears as well; 1 have no 
doubt that, as far as he had it in his power, he gave me every assistance. 

1384. Although he remonstrated against what he considered the unsatisfactory 
progress of the works, you say he never made any suggestions which enabled you 
to proceed with greater expedition?—Never. 

1385. Chairman .] Did you experience any difficulty in providing accommoda¬ 
tion for your engineers and inspectors along the line?—We built bungalows for 
them ; our districts were divided, and each engineer had 25 miles under his charge ; 
our usual plan was to erect one bungalow for the engineer in the middle of each 
district; there were two European inspectors, and each of them had a bungalow 
six miles from him on each side. 

1386. Did not some difficulty on more than one occasion arise, as to the price 
to be paid for these bungalows?—I originally applied to the Government to 
sanction an expenditure of 1,000 rupees for the building of three bungalows, one 
for the engineer, and one on each side for the inspectors; but they cut down the 
estimate to 750 rupees; that is to say, we were to build an engineer’s bungalow 
for 35 and the inspectors’ bungalows for 15 l. 

1387. What was the price at which you were ultimately compelled to build 
these bungalows?—An engineer’s bungalow cost us 900rupees; that is the sum 
which was ultimately sanctioned. 

1388. The sum originally proposed being 350 rupees, * and the expenditure 
that was sanctioned being 900 rupees?—Yes ; I ought to say that we found the 
bungalows could not be built lor that money, but that they were costing- us more, 
and that they were also a little too small. I applied to the Government for an 
increase in the estimate, which was repeatedly refused ; hut after a long and weary 
correspondence, we all the time being obliged in reality to spend the money and 
being censured for doing so, the Board at home interfered, and the Court sanc¬ 
tioned the estimate of 900 rupees; that is to say, 90/. for an engineer’s 
bungalow. 

1389. Did much delay and inconvenience arise in consequence of this objec¬ 
tion to the erection of the bungalows ?—Yes, there was a very great deal of dis¬ 
content engendered in consequence of the engineers being called upon to explain 
the expenditure, and also in consequence of one or two remarks which appear 
upon the records of the Government, which would lead those reading them to 
suppose that the engineers were actuated, in applying for an increased expendi¬ 
ture, by the sole desire ot making themselves comfortable. I stated in a letter 
that “ the censures of the Government were again and again visited upon the 
engineers for not doing what was found to be impracticable, and an increase of 
ill will and bad feeling was engendered which it is painful to reflect upon.” 
Perhaps you will allow me to say that the last order I am aware of as having 
been issued by the Government was that in certain districts, upon which we had 
not begun to build, no bungalows were to be erected at all, but that stations were 
to be built, and the engineers were to be left without bungalows until that was 
done; that of course involved the necessity of the rnen remaining under canvass 
for months, almost years, without protection, but the order sent out from here 
superseded that, and the engineers now, I have no doubt, have their bungalows. 

l 39 °- Are there any instances, within your own knowledge, in which the 
engineers have suffered in health from want of proper house accommodation?— 

I cannot directly trace it to that. 

1 39 1 • Cumming Bi'uce.~\ The difficulties and impediments to which you 
have now adverted arose, as I understand, from the interference of the local govern¬ 
ment ?—Exactly. 

1 39 But when you applied to the directors at home you had the grievance 
redressed ?—Yes. 

1 393 * Mr. Grawford.~\ \\ hat is the general character of one of these bungalows ? 
It is a house of three rooms generally, each of them being about 14 feet bv 16 
feet; the centre room being a living room, and one of the side rooms being a 
sleeping room, and the other being an office or bed-room for visitors, as the case 
may be. 

1 394 * These bungalows were required not only for the accommodation of the 
officers, but also for the transaction of the public business of the company ? — 
Yes; the cash chests were kept in these bungalows, and they were, in fact, the 

offices 



9 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS).- 

offices where all the business was transacted. They were generally built of mud- 
dried bricks, whitewashed, with plain Palmyra root's, thatched, but generally with 
no ceilings ; sometimes we had cloth ceilings. 

1395. In what respect was the difference between the estimated cost, that is, 
350 rupees which you were authorised to expend, and the 900 rupees which you 
expended afterwards ?—We made the bungalows a little larger, and we put a 
verandah all round, because, without that protection, the mud-dried bricks would 
not stand ; the weather would wash them away. 

1396. Is not a verandah a necessary adjunct to all edifices of that kind in 
India?—Quite so; but in my notions of economy I tried one verandah, and I 
found it would not do. 

1 397- you know of any house, whether a palatial residence or a common 
bungalow, such, as you describe, constructed without a verandah of some kind ?— 
There are some houses without verandahs, but as a rule they must have verandahs 
around them, because if made of the bricks I have mentioned the rain washes 
them away; in addition to that I ought to mention that the engineers’ bungalow 
was the place at which the native contractors met upon business. 

1398. The verandah, in point of fact, is the waiting-room?—Yes; our 
bungalows were of the simplest character, there was nothing of pretence, orna¬ 
ment, or show about them. 

1399. For what period were they intended to last?—For about three years ; 
but there is no doubt that by renewing the roofs, they will last and remain per¬ 
manent, and be of great service to the Company. 

1400. In point of fact, then, the Government were willing to sanction the 
magnificent outlay of 117 rupees per annum for the accommodation of the railway 
officers ?—Yes. 

1401. And for what extent of land ?—Twenty-five miles. 

1402. That would amount to about four rupees per mile per annum ? — Yes. 

1403. An amount which, measured by the extent of the line, w-as perfectly 
inappreciable in point of expenditure?—Quite so; infinitesimal. 

1404. And you would occupy these bungalows, you say, for about three vears 
through all weathers ?—Yes. 

1405. The occupant of the bungalow residing in it during the intense heat of one 
part of the year, and during the wet monsoon months of the other part of the 
year r—It was the head-quarters on all occasions, even during the hot months in 
Madras, and being 1 2 miles from each end of his line, the engineer was frequently 
away from it for a day or two together, but not longer. 

1406. Colonel Sykes.~\ I think you say that the superintendent of a length of 
line of 20 miles had a bungalow which cost 900 rupees?—Yes. 

1407. And two overseers at a distance of six miles, each occupying a bungalow 
costing 350 rupees ?—It cost more ultimately, but that was the original estimate. 

1408. These overseers were, I suppose, of the quality of sergeants ?—I suppose 
that class of men. 

1409. Are you aware that subaltern officers of the army lived in bungalow s, 
in military cantonments, in bye*gone times, which did not cost more than 150 
rupees ?—I have slept in a bungalow which has not cost more than 60 rupees, 
one of our own buildings ; and afterwards, for convenience, we made an engineer’s 
bungalow or little box towards each end of the line in which he could get his 
breakfast, and spend the heat of the day whilst looking over the w orks at that end 
of the line; this only cost 60 rupees, but it contained only one room, with neither 
door nor window in it beyond a little wicker-work thatch ; it was not sufficient for 
a man to live in ; he could not have his books there. 

1410. Are you aware of the bungalows of which I speak, costing 150 rupees 
lasting for years, being made with a verandah, two rooms and a stabler—I am 
not aware of that; I am aware of one built by the Government officer in charge 
of the annicut over the Palar River at Arcot. He built a bungalow consisting, I 
think, of one large room which cost 1,200 rupees. I would also observe that these 
bungalows which you refer to, as costing so small a sum of money, have 
generally speaking been supplied by tehsildars, or native magistrates. 

141 1. The railway officials were at all events lodged as well as the subaltern 
officers 1 am referring to ? — I do not think the engineers have any reason to object 
to the style of building ; I think the buildings are as comfortable as could he 
desired ; all we object to is, our not“being allowed a sufficient sum of money to 
build them. 

0.61. M2 


Mr. G- B. Bruce, 
13 May 1858. 


1412. Chairman.'] 


9 ^ 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


13 May 1858. 


1412. Chairman .] Were the railway officials responsible for the contents of the 
treasury chests, which you say were kept in the bungalow's ?—They were to all 
intents and purposes responsible; but what would have been the result of a 
robbery, which never happened, I cannot tell. 

1/113. Have you any other remark to make with regard to the bungalows ?—I 
consider that the engineers are placed at a great disadvantage. I can quite con¬ 
ceive a Government officer, long stationed in a district, being able to build a 
bungalow much cheaper than an engineer first going there. The first thing that 
an engineer has to do is to build his bungalow, and whilst it is being built he has 
everything to learn. He has also to learn the character of the people, who will try 
to cheat him in every direction ; and his attention is mainly occupied, not with his 
bungalow, but with surveying and staking out his line, so that the bungalow is 
necessarily left to other supervision than his own. 

1414. Was the control of the Government exercised, generally speaking, with 
a view of keeping down the cost of the line?—No. 

1415. Will you give us your reasons for stating that?— With scarcely an excep¬ 
tion, the supervision of the Government was exercised in a contrary direction. 

1416. State some instances in which the Government supervision was not 
exercised in keeping down the cost?—I would mention that, as a general rule, 
the supervision of the Government officer was exercised in checking little petty 
items of expenditure which had no bearing, to any extent, upon the price of the 
work ; but when he did act in any matter of importance, it was, without excep¬ 
tion, in the direction of making it cost more money instead of less; for instance, 
near Madras, when we first began, we had a gradient going down from the Canal 
Bridge at 1 in 528 ; that gradient the Government engineer required me to alter 
and to make level for a considerable distance, say two miles, the gradient itself 
being a short one of about half a mile. Of course that involved the necessity 
of considerable embankments, extra cost of bridges, and so on. I am not calling 
in question the expediency of that alteration, but merely saying that where I 
endeavoured to make work cheap, the supervision of the Government was in the 
direction of making it dear. There was another instance in district 5, where 
we had rather a heavy rock cutting to encounter. I wanted to save time because 
labour there was very scarce, and it was a district frequently visited by cholera. 
I intended to make rather a sharp curve round it at a radius, I think, of about 
half a mile ; that was objected to, and we had to go through the hill. Then, again, in 
district 7 we had some gradients, the depth of which I forget; but the Government 
engineer made me alter them to make easier gradients at a great increase of 
expense and loss of time. Then in respect to district 16 , I wanted to make 
some sharp curves to avoid a heavy cutting down to Malabar, at a radius of 
about 25 chains; that was objected to, but, I think, I was ultimately allowed 
to do it. I mention these cases as showing the directions which the supervision 
of the Government engineer took; but in other matters, when money was in 
question, or work was in question, it was generally with regard to small things; 
for instance, the bungalow question, which occupied a great deal of time. I can 
mention one or two other instances. I had about 3i rupees disallow ed upon peons’ 
belts. Then there was a considerable controversy about the allowance of 10 
rupees, the expense of a timekeeper. The engineers were at that time spending, of 
course, considerable sums of money, and it was necessary that we should have a 
timekeeper. I mention that to show that the economy was, in small and trifling 
things, only' calculated to irritate men who had the spending of thousands of 
pounds. 

1417. Had you not considerable difficulty, at times, in obtaining the actual 
amount of funds necessary for the payment of the current expenses of the line ?— 
Yes, we very often ran short of money. 

1418. W hat replies did you receive to applications for money for that purpose ? 

Very oiten it was a demand tor explanation as to why we wanted money, or 

now we could require so much. I do not mean to say that the Government 
should not tequire those explanations, but I think they should not withhold the 
funds until they receive an answer. 

1419. Can you give any specific case in which funds were refused ?—Yes ; I 
wrote to the agent on the 14th of April 1855 to this effect: “ I beg to call your 
attention to the fact that on the 10th of April the salaries of the engineerino* 
establishment for the month of February had not 
you of the inconvenience we are put to for want 


fe « - 

1 need not remind 


been paid, 
of money, and only call your 
attention 



93 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

attention to the fact in the hope that you may be able to arrange for the more 
speedy payment.” 

1420. What was the reply?—Major Jenkins, the agent of the company, wrote 
to the consulting engineer, asking him to make some other arrangements, and 
Colonel Pears wrote in reply, to say that the abstracts had not been forwarded to 
his office, and that those abstracts were not received until the 10th of March, and 
that there was an unusual detention in his office in consequence of his being 
absent from the Presidency ; but the fact was that the money for the whole 
establishment, from one end of the line to the other, was made dependent upon 
the sending in the whole of the abstracts; that is to say, that if there was a mis¬ 
take, or an error, or an explanation required as to our abstracts upon one district, 
the whole of the abstracts were withheld until that was satisfactorily arranged. 

1421. By the “abstract,” you mean the “ account?”—The account. Then 
Colonel Pears’ defence used to be that we did not send in the account with 
sufficient expedition. Then I wrote again on the 18th of June 1855, drawing 
attention to the fact that many salaries for April had not been paid, and I added 
further, “ The accounts are sent in as regularly and as quickly as possible. I can 
hope for no improvement in this respect.” I wanted to have money in hand. 
Then I said further, “ I must protest against the withholding of funds in the 
meantime, as an undue exercise of power calculated to do no injury to the 
delinquent, if such there be, but calculated seriously to injure the undertaking 
itself. 

1422. Had those complaints reference to the payment of salaries, or did they 
include other payments ?—This letter mixes up the two together, but the first 
had reference entirely to salaries. The agent in reference to the complaint about 
accounts says, “ I have no hope of being able to transmit these papers to you 
with more expedition at any future time than at present.” They were mixed up 
with a variety of things, which made it very difficult to set it right. 

1423. Mr. Gumming Bruce. ] Did that delay in supplying you with money 
create an increased expense in the construction of your line ?—Very much so. I 
have known coolies leave their work; I recollect that we were sometimes without 
money to pay the coolies for a long time, and the men, in consequence, went 
away in disgust, and never came back again. We have then ultimately been 
obliged to raise the wages of the men, in some instances, 33 per cent., in order to 
induce them to come back. 

1424. You consider that that would have been avoided if you had had money 
to pay them with at once?—I think I have made a mistake, and that I have been 
confounding two cases ; in the case I refer to the men were not dismissed for 
want of funds, but in consequence of a deviation which the consulting engineer 
wished us to make, the effect however was the same. 

1425. Then the case you have mentioned cannot be cited as having proceeded 
from a want of funds ?—No ; but 1 remember that on one occasion I had to raise 
the wages. 

1426. You state generally, that if you had had ready money you could have 
conducted your works upon a more reasonable scale as regards expenses ?—Yes. 

1427. Mr. Crawford. J The principle of your payments was to engage services, 
and to pay for them afterwards ?—Yes ; we never made advances. 

1428. Do you think that it would have been attended with advantage to the 
interests of the railway company if you had had the command of cash, instead 
of being under the necessity of applying in each case for sanction?—We did not 
apply for sanction in that way ; we applied for money, say for 10,000 rupees fora 
district, without reference to the particular articles we wished to purchase ; some¬ 
times they would send to inquire why we wanted it; my applications for money 
do not appear in the printed book to which I am referring, and therefore I can 
only give the replies of the Government to them. I find an answer from the 
Government, dated 3d January 1855, in these terms: “ The Government have 
already had to notice the inconvenience of applications like the present, and the 
irregularity of leaving to the last moment demands for funds, which it is expected 
the Government are to place at the disposal of the chief railway engineer at a few’ 
moments’ notice, without having before them the necessary accounts as a guide for 
their proceedings. The Governor in Council cannot admit the validity of the 
excuse now offered by the chief railway engineer, and must decline complying 
with the agent’s requisition in the absence of the usual statement of expenditure; 
the Government will regret if this course interferes with the work of the railway, 

O.61. M3 and 


Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


13 May 1858. 



94 


Hr. G. B. Bruce. 


13 May 1838. 


minutes of evidence taken before the 

and they can only observe, that it' it does so, it might have been obviated by the 
exercise of a little foresight on the part of the chief railway engineer.” That 
is one place in which my explanation is not given, and I have no means of knowing 
what it was; indeed I remember that my camp, with all my books, was at this 
time marching down from Salem to Madras, and therefore I could not supply the 
usual statement of the money, in which the money had been spent, and what 
remained in hand ; the Government knew the amount of work we were executing, 
but when I applied for 120,000 rupees, it was refused upon the ground I have 
stated; subsequently to this we had no money during six weeks of the brick- 
making season at Madras, and we could not make bricks for the terminal station 
because we were without funds for that purpose. 

1429. In point of fact, that publication then contains an animadversion upon 
your proceedings, without the explanation which your letter would have afforded ? 
—Yes. 

1430. Mr. Stephenson. 1 Do I understand you to say that many of the men 
left the work in disgust, you being in their debt ?—The coolies would go away. 

1431. Without having received their wages ?—They would go away with their 
tickets ; and would, perhaps, sell those tickets at the bazaar at a considerable 
discount, and they would afterwards be brought to us for payment. 

1432. Mr. H. A. Bruce.'] You said that a serious delay of six weeks occurred 
upon one occasion, in consequence of a want of funds; were you reported against 
during that time for not carrying on your works with spirit?—We were called to 
account, and requested to explain why our station buildings were not as they 
should have been, and I think I have a copy of my letter in reply. I wrote, 
“ We had no money during six weeks or two months of the brick-making season, 
and in consequence lost the greater part of the weather suitable for making bricks 
during 1855, and as a matter of course, when we got sanction to proceed with the 
building, we bad not a brick to go on with, and were obliged to wait until after 
the monsoon, and then make the bricks before we could begin to build.” 

1433. Do you consider that the delay arose from the refusal to make the 
advances to which you have just' referred ?—That and others; I applied on one 
occasion for 130,000 rupees, and the Right honourable the Governor in Council, 
on the report of the consulting engineer on the 1st June 1855, sanctioned 75,000 
rupees, that is to say, I received 55,000 rupees less than I asked for. I wrote 
again for money on the 4th June 1855, when Government gave us 146,000 rupees 
instead of 180,000 rupees for which I had applied, and had sent in accounts; and 
they refused altogether the money for districts No. 6, 14 and 15, on the ground 
that we had no authority to go on with the works ; but the fact was, that it was 
necessary to build one bungalow to make our bricks, to burn the lime, to gather 
stones and wood, and a variety of things which were required in all the dis¬ 
tricts, and which we always did before obtaining sanction from the Government. 

1434. Mr. T. G. Baring.] Do you -wish to convey to the Committee the idea 
that you were constantly kept short of money?—Very often. 

1435. Ordinarily how did you apply for money ?—I will take one district, and 
I should have upon that district 500,000 rupees. 

1436. How did you get the money ?—First of all I should say that I wanted to 
go on with the works, and that I required 3,000 rupees to begin building bunga¬ 
lows. Then when I had nearly spent that money, I might write and say that 
I had received 3,000 rupees, and had rendered accounts of the money expended 
to the extent of 2,000 rupees, and that beyond that 1 had advanced to the engineer 
j ,000 rupees, and that therefore I had nothing in hand and wanted more. 

1437. You were a kind of impressed accountant; you received a part, and 
asked for further advances ?—Yes. 

1438. Did you do that regularly at certain intervals ?—Yes. 

1439. H° w often ?—Once a month. 

1440. Colonel Sykes.] You say that inquiry was made as to the reason of vour 
applying for money?—Yes. 

1441. Do you think that it would have been proper on the part of the Govern¬ 
ment officers not to have made those inquiries before advancing the money ?—I 
think they should have known as well as I did what we wanted the money for; 
they knew the works were going on. 

1442. You say that delay was occasioned by your not obtaining advances of 
money as soon as you wanted them?'—Yes. 

1443. Nevertheless, you say you were quite satisfied with the progress of the 

. works, 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 95 

works, and that the Government expressed surprise at your having made the 
progress you had r—1 never said that the progress was quite satisfactory, but 
that if it had not been for the delay the progress would have been more 
satisfactory. 

1444. Mr. Crawford.'] Do not all the railway engineers give security to the 
railway company when they enter their service?—Yes. 

1445. Colonel Sykes.] To what amount?—I gave security to the amount of 
2,000/. I do not know what is the usual amount. The fault appeared to me to 
be that we were working without capital, that we were working from hand to 
mouth, because every small amount of money we wanted was dribbled out to us, 
and if an account happened to be wrong it was sent back for explanations, and in 
the interval the office would run short of funds. 

1446. Mr. T. G. Baring.] Do you mean that further advances were delayed 
because a former account required some explanation ?—Sometimes the reason 
was that accounts had not been sent in up to the time the Government engineer 
wished. 

1447. Was that given as a plea for not making further advances ?—Yes ; I 
am aware that the accounts were not sent in as fast as any of us wished, but we 
did everything we possibly could towards it. 

1448. Did you object to furnish every explanation regarding any item upon 
which explanation was required ?—We never objected to give the fullest 
explanation. 

1449. Chairman .] Did you experience much difficulty in procuring sleepers 
and wood for sleepers?—We had considerable difficulty, and it is at this moment, 

I believe, a matter of serious consequence. 

1450. Did much delay arise from the Government intervention in the mode of 
obtaining sleepers?—Yes, that was entirely the cause of it; we were required to 
insert advertisements in the newspapers calling for tenders for sleepers; the 
parties tendering had to send in upon an ordinary written form a statement of 
what they would supply, and they had to appear at the agent’s office in Madras 
on a certain day. Ten per cent, of the money upon each contract was to be reserved, 
as is usually the case with English contracts ; and the sleepers were to be sub¬ 
jected, not only to the supervision of the engineer of the company, but also to 
the sanction of the Government, and until the sanction was obtained the money 
could not be paid for the sleepers. The result of drawing up the contracts in that 
way was, that the natives did not understand the contracts, and it was only the 
richer and better class amongst them who were able to come into competition, 
and very few of them up country would offer. Madras was as much unknown to 
them as London is, and they were frightened at the idea of having to appear at 
the agent’s office; and the consequence was, that we got no offers from men up 
country. The consequence of all this was, that instead of being able to buy our 
sleepers at Madras at one rupee a piece, we had to pay two, and sometimes two 
and a half rupees for them ; even then we could not get them. 

1451. Was there not considerable competition in the purchase of sleepers; 
were not the agents of other railway companies in the market, who, having fuller 
powers of purchase, were able to carry them off under the eyes of your own 
engineers ?—Exactly so. After many remonstrances of the same kind, I wrote 
on the 15th July 18,56: “Allow me to draw your attention to the state of the 
timber market in Malabar, and our prospects of obtaining sleepers there. 
The Bombay Railway, and the Scinde Railway, and the Bombay Govern¬ 
ment have agents down at Calicut buying up all the timber they can lay their 
hands on, and taking it to their respective lines. Owing to this the price is 
likely to rise very much. In the meantime, what are we doing? Your agent in 
Beypoor sent tenders for sanction to you in February last; and now, in the 
middle of July, we have just received sanction for two of these, the remainder 
being still under consideration. In the interval other parties have been in the 
market; and, after a delay of five months in accepting a tender, it is doubtful 
whether the parties tendering will abide by their offer. Unless some change is 
made, leaving the officers of this company as free to purchase sleepers as their 
neighbours, and the Government, we shall certainly be obliged to indent again 
upon England.” 

1452. Can you call to mind one occasion of the purchase of 3,000 sleepers, 
amongst which there were some of a quality described as unauthorised wood ?— 
That was wood purchased in Malabar, called pillahmurdh. 

0.61. m 4 1453. Describe 


Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


13 May 1858. 




Mr. G. B. Brucc. 


13 May 1858. 


96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

1453. Describe that transaction from the commencement?—A man came to me 
and offered wood ; I persuaded him to send us in a tender, and he did so for 
3,000 sleepers, to he delivered at Pal Ghaut; he wished not to have the clause 
enforced requiring the deposit of io percent., and he wished to receive his money 
on delivery. Government, generally speaking, would not allow us to pay for the 
sleepers until they had received the sanction of the Government engineer; his 
sanction and my sanction were mere echoes of the sanction of the engineer on the 
spot ; so that if he had been authorised, under restrictions, to purchase sleepers 
as he thought proper, under certain orders and rules, he could have done so, 
paying for them at any time, and getting them in any quantity. 

1454. Colonel Sykes.] It might have been bad wood?—The names of the 
woods would have been selected. 

1455. Chairman .] I want to have the whole history of that transaction. What 
was the reason alleged by the consulting engineer, in the first instance, for refusing 
his sanction to the purchase of those sleepers ?—The reason was, that it was unau¬ 
thorised timber. 

1456. Did he not require that the botanical name of the wood should be sup¬ 
plied ?—Yes ; we had been in the habit of working that wood in the workshops of 
Pal Ghaut, and had found it was good wood. The man I have referred to offered 
to find us sleepers of that kind of wood, and the consulting engineer wrote 
requesting that we would inform him what was the botanical name of the wood, 
and so on. I found out that it was the same wood in point of fact as we were 
using on the other side of the ghaut by the Tamul name of maroothymarum. If 
it had not been for that, 1 suppose we should not have been allowed to use it. 

1457. Over what period did that correspondence extend in the first place, and 
what was the result ?—I think it occupied a period of two or three months. 

1458. The result of the transaction, I believe, was that the purchase was 
authorised ?—It was. 

1459. And the sleepers were bought?—They were. 

1460. Did you not find, from your experience as an engineer, that the readiest,, 
the simplest, and the most efficient, as well as the most economical mode of 
obtaining a supply of sleepers was by paying ready money on the spot?—I think 
it is almost the only mode; up country certainly it is, although in Madras we 
may do otherwise. I never doubted the propriety and expediency of the Govern¬ 
ment exercising every proper and reasonable check upon the purchases of 
sleepers, because it is one of the most important things ; but what we wished to 
do was to fix the kinds of wood which we were to use, to limit the price to which 
the engineers might go, and then to allow them to purchase the various woods 
at these prices, or as much under them as possible, to pay for them on the spot, 
and then that certificates should be sent through the other offices as for other 
things. That was not allowed, but we were to apply for tenders, which was a 
roundabout way that no native liked ; there was a long delay in obtaining the 
sanction of the Government, and a longer delay still in getting the money and 
yet there was no additional check, because my signature was given upon the 
faith of the signature of the engineer on the spot, and the signature of the con¬ 
sulting engineer was given upon the faith of my signature. 

1461. Tou state that the natives did not either understand, or did not consider 
themselves bound by the terms of the contract; can you state any case in which a 
native contractor failed in the performance of his contract?—Several of them 
failed ; I cannot call to mind their names, but I know that dozens of them would 
not tender in consequence of the system. 

1462. Under that system of paying ready money did you find that the natives 
were backward in coming forward ?—At one time they were ; we wore allowed for 
a short time to follow that, plan under certain limitations, but it was clogged by the 
contract system being at the same time in force, and we could not get people to 
come foi ward with the sleepers at the proper price of one rupee, when there were 
contracts in force at 2 and 2A rupees ; but there can be no doubt that if we had 
persevered in that system, and discountenanced the other, we should have 
succeeded. 

1463* Do you consider that any r serious delay occurred over any portion of the 
line from the restrictions placed upon you in regard to the purchase of sleepers ?— 
Not upon the portions of the line opened, because it so happens that at Vellore, 
Mr. Sullivan, a civilian of great spirit and energy, and who was always willing to 
help us, was allowed by the Government to provide sleepers for the railway 

company,. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


97 


company, and he provided us with a large number of sleepers, and did in point of 
fact what our engineers ought to have done ; but for that we should have been very 
short of sleepers at that end of the line, but the difficulty will be felt most upon 
parts of the line which they are now going to open, where I do not think that they 
have one-fiftieth part of the sleepers they require. 

1464. Mr. Crawford '] In point of fact the Government authorised their own 
servant, a civilian, to do things which they would not authorise you to do?—Yes. 

1465. That is to purchase sleepers by a ready-money payment?'—Yes; he in 
the first instance sent his own people into the jungles, and got some sleepers, and 
paid them money for so doing; after that, he paid the natives so much a cart-load 
for them; it would have been better if all the engineers had had the same au¬ 
thority. 

1466. Colonel Sykes.] You say you were asked for the botanical name of the 
wood ; by whom?—Colonel Pears. 

1467. Are you not aware that, by ascertaining the natural family and genus and 
species of wood, its progress and growth, and consequent density are known without 
inspection?—I have no doubt that you may approximate to it, but we know its 
density much better, because we were working at it every day in the workshops. 

1468. Its density being consequent upon its rapid or slow growth?—Yes. 

1469. Therefore the inquiry was a prudent and proper one?—I do not object 
to the inquiry ; but our use of the wood every day was so palpable a test that it 
superseded, I should have thought, any farther inquiry. 

1470. Did you give the botanical name?—I think we did. 

1471. Do you recollect what it was?—I do not. 

1472. Has not the botanical name of every tree in Malabar and Madras been 
published by Mr. White? —I believe so. 

1473. Mr. Y 7 . G. Baring.] If you had sent the botanical name in the first 
instance, the delay, I suppose, would not have occurred ?—I do not know that ; 
I do not know that Colonel Pears could have ascertained from the botanical 
name whether it was wood fit for use. 

1474. Colonel iSy/res.] Do you know whether he is a botanist?—I do not be¬ 
lieve he is. 

1475. Mr. T. G. Baring.] By reference to the books he would see what class 
of wood it was? —He could have ascertained it in that sense. 

1476. Therefore, if you had sent the botanical name at first, the delay could 
not have occurred ?—I was in camp at the time, and had no records with me. 

1477. Do y ou consider that the difficulty arose from the name of the wood not 
being sufficiently known by the Government officer ?—Yes. 

1478. You subsequently informed the Government officer that the wood was 
the same as had been sanctioned before?—-Yes. 


1479. If you had given that account in the first instance no delay, I suppose, 
would have occurred ? —I did not know it myself. It was from the information 
received and comparing the wood that I found it out. I did not know the name 
on the other side of the Ghaut; I only know the Malabar name, not the Tamul 
name. I do not place much stress on that case, but on the general system of 
nonpayment. 

1480. You said it was necessary to fix the class of wood ?—Yes. 

1481. Therefore, you consider that the question put to you by the Government 
engineer was a proper question ?—I do not object to the question. 

1482. So far as this was a new class of wood, you admit the propriety of the 
question ?—Neither the Government engineer nor ourselves knew the woods to a 
great extent; and it was only by experience, such as we have every day, that we 
can add a new wood to our list. 

1483. You said that the course which you would have recommended was, that 
certain fixed classes of wood should be named, and that your engineer should have 
power to buy sleepers of that particular class ?—Yes. 

1484. Supposing that course to have been pursued, would not the inquiry by 
the Government be still necessary with respect to a new class of wood?—Yes. 

1485. These 3,000 sleepers being made of a class of wood not already known 
to the Government, the inquiry was a necessary one ?—Yes ; but they need not 


have asked us the botanical name. 

1486. But some inquiry must have been made ?—No doubt. 

1487. You say that a change in the system was authorised by Government ?•— 

For a short time. _ lT , 

0.61. N 1488. Whenr 


Mr. G. B. Hivce. 


13 May 1858. 



Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


13 May 1858. 


98 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

1488. When?—Some time towards the end of 1854, I think. 

1489. On what account was it authorised?—On my requisition; I wanted to 
see whether I could not get sleepers better and cheaper. 

1490. Was it changed?—It was changed hack again. 

1491. On what account? — I believe the first official allusion to the change was 
made by the agent, who wrote to the Government upon the subject, and that 
letter was written at the suggestion of the consulting engineer; the agent wrote 
to the consulting engineer to say that he did not think that that was a good 
system. 

1492. Do you mean to say it was the act of your agent that the system was 
changed back again ?—So far as the official records are concerned it appears so, 
but it was not so in point of fact, because the agent did that rather to prevent its 
being done by the Government authorities. 

1493. Did he do it against his own opinion ?—I do not know 7 . 

1494. He wrote the letter?—He did. 

1495. Recommending that the system you object to should be reverted to? 
—Yes. 

1496. But you do not know whether it was his opinion or not?—I have no 
doubt it was. 

1497. The change was made at the request of your own agent? — Yes; but 
long after that he has applied time after time to have the system altered back 
again. 

1498. Has that been refused?—Over and over again. 

1499. On what grounds?—The reason was this, that the Government engineer 
thought that to pay for the sleepers without first of all obtaining his sanction was 
taking the matter out of his hands. Everything else is paid for before it is sanc¬ 
tioned, but this is an exception. That w as the objection, so far as I could under¬ 
stand it. Will you allow me to add, that our directors here have, in concert with 
the Court of Directors, sent out strong remonstrances against the system as it 
now' exists, and in favour of the system I have recommended. 

1500. Did I understand you to say that there has been a delay of five months 
before a tender was accepted ?—Yes. 

1501. You have sent in a certain number of tenders, and have received no final 
decision with regard to them for five months?—That is so. 

1502. How can you account for it ?—I do not know 7 ; all I know is, that it has 
happened. 

1503. Have cases of that sort been frequent ?—Our tenders were not very fre¬ 
quent ; but they have occurred at Malabar. 

1504. Have any other goods been supplied bv contract at Madras?—Yes; 
sleepers have been supplied there to a considerable extent. There are men of 
capital there, and the natives are more accustomed to it, and they import the 
sleepers from seaboard. 

1505. Can you state any other cases in which injurious delay has occurred in 
the receipt of tenders?—1 do not think that there has been any delay of any con¬ 
sequence at Madras. 

1506. The sleepers of w hich you have spoken were, I suppose, made by an indi¬ 
vidual who cut the wood in his own neighbourhood?—Yes; there were five 
tenders, I think, and three of them only 7 have been answered. 

1507. The tenders came, I suppose, from your local engineer on the spot?— 
Yes. 

1508. Did he send information as to whether the persons were capable of ful¬ 
filling their engagements?—I think the tenders were made when I was there 
myself, but what was said about the people I do not remember ; I do not think 
that that was ever a question. 

1509. W as the delay occasioned simply by the matter going through a certain 
routine of official business?—Yes; it is not improbable that it would be sent to 
me for some inquiry ; I should have to send it back to Malabar, and I must then 
wait until I received it again ; there is an eight days’ post between the two places. 

1,510. In the end was one of the tenders accepted ?—I think so, but I am not 
able to say from memory. 

1511. You do not know whether it was accepted or not ?—No. 

1.512. Colonel Sylces.~\ If the delay had been injurious, the progress of the 
works must have been stopped ?—It fortunately happened that we were not at that 
point when we required the sleepers. 

1513. Then 



99 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

1513. Then expedition was not of such moment as it would have been if you 
had required them ?—If we had required them, the system could not have existed 
so long as it has done ; it is only now that it has become a glaring case, manifest 
to all, that our directors have interfered, and sent out stringent orders on the 
subject. 

1514. Mr. Crawford .] Practically speaking, do you not think that the Govern¬ 
ment would have adopted a better course if they had relied upon your statement 
that you had found suitable wood, rather than in referring to you for the botanical 
name ?—I think so ; and it would have been much cheaper. 

1515. Does it not look very much like an abnegation of all confidence on the 
part of the Government authorities, as to the proper performance, on your part, 
of the duties you undertook ?—It was felt to be so. 

1516. Chairman.'] You have given us very full explanations of the descrip¬ 
tion of demands made upon you by the Government; can you state that a very 
great amount of time was lost, and an immense amount of trouble occasioned 
in furnishing all these minute explanations?—Very great indeed. 

1517. Do you consider that, if the supervising officer, on the part of the 
Government, had been himself a civil engineer, he would have required so much 
explanation? — ! know I should not. 

1518. You can state that as a civil engineer?—Certainly ; because men who 
are brought up to it all their lives, see the fitness of things more readily than 
those who are learning as they go, to a certain extent. 

1519. Did you experience any difficulty in consequence of the want of a suffi¬ 
cient staff of inspectors over the various parts of the line?—Very great. We 
applied again and again to be allowed inspectors from this country ; but that 
permission was never granted, until the Board of Directors here, and the 
Court, sent them out in the face of the remonstrances of the engineer and 
the Government in Madras. It appears that in the progress report, dated 
5th January 1856, I state “ the want of experienced superintendence which 
Government considered unnecessary, is sadly felt, and must ever continue 
to be so.” I was called on to explain that, and I said in a letter, dated 
23d January 1856, “In reply to your letter No. 3, allow me to observe, 
that throughout our whole establishment we feel the want of practical assistance. 
Our ballasting and waggon-work is conducted and managed by men who never 
in their lives before saw a waggon. Our bridges, with scarcely an exception, are 
superintended by men, who, to use a common expression, ‘ do not know a brick 
from a stone/ The engineer had no practical assistance. To descend to par¬ 
ticulars, Mt. Collins has spent the greater part of last month on the personal and 
detailed superintendence of a rock cutting, which could be much more economi¬ 
cally dene by a man on 4I. a week. There is no practical main at the Gareallum 
Bridge, none on District 6, where there will be several large bridges : at the 
Pennar and Muttoor Bridges, on District 7, we have felt the want severely.” Then 
I go on to say, “ I was myself most anxious to provide subordinate superinten¬ 
dence in this country, but after the experience of two years, I gave it up in 
despair. I am fully alive to the disadvantages or drawbacks there are in the way 
of sending to England for men, and have duly weighed all these. We pay as 
much for inexperience in this country as would provide experience from home.” 

1520. Is it not the fact that important bridging works were, in some cases, 
left to the inspection of pensioners, and men of that kind ?—The bridge over 
the Cortelear River is a bridge of 26 arches, 30 feet span, and is a key 
bridge. It was superintended in the first instance by an old pensioner, but 
fortunately the engineer was within three miles; ultimately, before the end of 
the work, we had a man from home who was very efficient. 

1521. Was there not considerable risk of the work being inefficiently performed 
by having it in the hands of such men ?—Very considerable risk. 

1522. For how long a period did that man continue to act as inspector?—I 
should think for eight months out of the twelve, during which we were engaged 
upon the bridge; he was a very hard-working worthy old man, but was not a 
mason. 

1523. Did the Government virtually insist upon your obtaining a description 
of skilled labour in the country, which, in fact, was not to be found there?— 
They insisted upon our obtaining them in the country ; the Government bad their 
supervisors from the army ; but we were not allowed to seek workmen in the army, 
or we might probably have provided ourselves with proper assistance, because 

0.61. n 2 each 


Mr. G. B. Bruce . 


13 May 1858. 



100 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


13 May 1858. 


each regiment generally numbers amongst its ranks masons, bricklayers, and 
carpenters. I went to the Commander-in-Chief, General Anson, for permission 
to obtain our assistants from the army ; but he said that a company like ours should 
find our own men, and he would not allow us to take his soldiers. 

1524. Did you find that you couid instruct the natives sufficiently to entrust to 
them the inspection of work of this description?—We found many ot them very 
efficient in some things, but in others we could not altogether trust them ; for 
instance, the bridge which we were building over the Cortelear, was a right-hand 
skew, and one of the natives, a mason, under the European, had charge of it. I 
thought, as he had had a year’s experience at that bridge, that I would send him 
to another, but as the skew was the other way, he began working at the wrong 
end. 

1525. That you mention as a practical illustration of the difficulty of instruct¬ 
ing the natives in the inspection of works of this description?—Yes; and in 
depending upon them for supervision. 

1.526. Mr. Craivforcl.] Did you select that man, or was he recommended to 
you?—I selected him. He came to me first upon very small pay; he was a 
stone-cutter by trade, and he was with us for a long time; I raised his wages 
repeatedly, and he was a very useful tnan. 

1527. Do the pensioners apply to you for service ?—Yes ; I had some exceed¬ 
ingly useful men as inspectors, inasmuch as they were good keepers of accounts. 
They came to me from the 15th Hussars, when that regiment left India ; they were 
not practical men, and were not of much use, except from their having been 
accustomed to obey orders; they did not make up for the want of the other 
assistants we required. 

1.528. Had they obtained their discharge, or were they pensioners?—We paid 
their discharge in some cases, and they refunded us. 

1529. Do you pay pensioners the same wages as you pay other superintendents 
and inspectors of the same class ?—Yes. 

1530. Are you aware whether the Government made any deduction from 
iheir pension in consequence of their employment by you?—I am not aware. 

1531. Mr. Stephenson.'] Do you not consider that an inefficient system of 
inspection increased your own responsibility?—I felt it seriously. 

1532. Your ow n time, and that of your assistants, was in point of fact drawn 
away from important matters to reunite one which would have been as well left to 
a person of one-third the salary ?—Exactly so. 

1 533* I n addition to that, although you have accomplished these works, you 
cannot speak, from your own knowledge, to the complete solidity »f the works 
with so much certainty as you might have done if you had had good inspectors? 
—No. 

*534* In fact, you considered that your attention being directed to these minute 
details was an absolute waste of time and money?—Exactly so. I think I have 
already stated that the court here, and our directors, sent out a great body of the 
skilled labourers I asked for, but it was upon the remonstrance of the Govern¬ 
ment there, and I was called upon to give explanations why I had sent for them. 
In the report which I wrote I stated, “ The only other point I would refer to is the 
want of skilled subordinate superintendence ; we have not done what we ought to 
have done towards the improvement of the style of work in this part of India for 
the want of this ; we have too often been content to use wretched bricks because 
we had no one to stand over them, and see them made, who knew how this ought 
to be done, and it is not desirable that, when determined to introduce a better 
description of bricks, your engineer should (as I have known to be the case) spend 
whole nights in brick-fields superintending the burning of a kiln, with no bed but 
cocoa-nut leaves, on which occasionally to rest.” 

] 535 ^ Colonel Sykes.] You said there was great difficulty in procuring native 
masons ?—Yes. 

( J 53 6 - Do you suppose that skilful natives are not procurable ?—Not off the 
Government works. They get employment there, and we could only get the 
under foremen, if we got any ; but, generally speaking, we had to select a good 
sharp, active common workman, and train him as well as we could. Some of 
them did very well. 

, 537 * In a country where there are such magnificent specimens of architecture, 
efficient native workmen must be procurable ?—I have no doubt they are. We 
could train natives, and I have no doubt that the Government have some; but they 

are 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 101 

them^ 6 ^ ^ ° Ut & SyStem ° f Wages for years ’ and a P ension at the end of 

} 53 8 - The expense, of course, would have been considerably less?—Less in 
point of money; but I have known the difference in point of work done under 
European agents to be four times as much as that done under the eye of the 
native. J 

1,539. What was the amount of the pay received by the native agents?_I 

think our foreman did not receive more than 30 rupees a month ; as a o- C neral 
rule, they would perhaps not get more than 10 or 12, or 15. 

1540. Mr. T. G. Baring .] In making a comparison between the amount of 
work done under native and that done under European [superintendence, are you 
speaking of the natives you employed, or of any others ?—I judge principally 
from my own workmen, and I judge also from what I have heard from other 
parties in charge of Government works out there, and from what I have seen of 
the works throughout the district. 

1541. You would rather pay a higher salary to a European than a low salary to 
a native ?—I must, not be understood as saying that I would not employ natives; 
but I meant that if I had been doing this work myself, and if the profits of the 
construction were to go into my own pocket, I would have every man I asked for, 
when I applied for them, Europeans. 

1542. You would have European superintendents?—Yes. 

1543. Altogether ?—No, only for the principal works, and to a much larger 
extent than was allowed by the Government. 

1544. How high would you employ the native in the superintendence of 
works ?—It is not easy to answer that; I would have had in each district, pro¬ 
bably of 12 miles, one thoroughly good European mason to take charge of that 
extent of line. 

1545. On each 12 miles you would have one European superintendent?—Yes; 
not only that, but a European superintendent who was accustomed to work. We 
had one European, but he was not a mason, or a practical man. 

1546. The natives would be subordinate to him ?—Yes. 

1547. Practically, from your experience of that country, you say you would 
have employed European superintendents and natives under them ?—Yes, as a 
general rule. 

1548. Do you know whether there is a Government school for engineering at 
Madras ?—The only one is that which we had ourselves; we had 20 or 30 pupils, 
and those who were turned out during the time I was there were exceedingly 
efficient. 

1549. From the Government school?—VVe took them from any school, both 
for the works and for the office. 


Mr. G. B. Bruce . 


13 May 1858. 




102 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Luna, die Mail , 1858 . 


MEMBERS PRESENT. 


The Hon. H. G. Liddell. 
Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Colonel Sykes, 

Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. C. Bruce. 


Mr. H. A. Bruce. 
Mr. Cheetham. 

Sir J. Elphinstone. 
Mr. G. Glyn. 

Mr. Stephenson. 
Mr. A. H. Baring. 


The Hon. H. G. LIDDELL, in the Chair. 


Mr. George Barclay Bruce , called in ; and further Examined. 

G j} rucc Colonel Sykes.] IN a former part of your evidence you complained that 

r ' ' ' ruce ‘ you had not been allowed, of your own authority, to purchase sleepers ?—I com- 

Ma»18-8 I>' a * n ed that we were not allowed to purchase them under certain restrictions, to be 
* ^ 0 sanctioned by the Government. 

1551. What were those restrictions?—As I explained before, the system in 
force was this : that formal tenders were to be sent in by the natives up country ; 
that those tenders were to be sent first of all to the agent; that the natives were to 
appear themselves, either personally or through their agents, on the day that the 
tenders were opened; that 10 per cent, was to be reserved, and that the sleepers 
were not to he paid for until they had been sanctioned, not only by the engineer of 
the Company, but also by the Government; and also that each number of sleepers 
supplied had to go through the form of having the certificate passed through, first 
of all the hands of the resident engineer, next through my hands, and then through 
the agent’s hands, and also through the hands of the Government engineer; it 
would then, perhaps, go back through the same course, in order that some inquiry 
might be made, and ultimately the people would get their money very long after 
they had supplied the articles. 

1552. That is the system you complain of?—Yes. 

1 553 - Do you desire that that whole system should not obtain, but that you 
should be empowered to make your own purchases?—I wished that w T e should 
be allowed to do with sleepers precisely the same as with everything else. Every¬ 
thing else we purchased and paid for, without the special sanction of the 
Government. 

1554. What do you mean by “ everything else’’?—Take, for instance, bricks. 
We built our bridges, we made our embankments, and we bought our lime and 
things of that kind ; after payment, the accounts were submitted to the Govern¬ 
ment, and sanctioned by them. 

1555. Are you aware of any systerrf of public works in any country whatever, 
in which the subordinates are permitted to make their own purchases, and to 
charge their own prices ?—I stated that 1 thought the prices should be limited ; 
that is to say I would, in concert with the Government engineer, decide on 
woods that we were to use (we will suppose in Malabar), and I would also decide 
the limit of price to which the engineer was to be allowed to go; I would say, 
“ You may buy sleepers of these kinds of woods within that limit of price, and then 
when you have bought them, you must pay for them on the spot; it shall not be 
necessary for you to send your certificate through the circuitous route which will 
keep the men out of their money for a great length of time I would not, in point 
of fact, give him greater liberty than the Government did, but I would give him 
the power of paying on the spot, and of making his agreement with the people in a 

way 






SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 103 

way they understood, over the table, or in a verandah, without going through the 
form of a written document, which they are afraid of, and which in nine cases 
out of ten they will have nothing to do with. 

1.556. My question required a simple “yes,” or “no”; are you aware of any 
system of public works in any country in which the subordinates are permitted 
to make their own purchases, and to charge their own prices ? —»No. 

1 557 - ^ it were permitted, do yon not think that it would be highly im¬ 
provident, and possibly dangerous?—I never would permit a subordinate of mine 
to do it, and never did. 

] 558. Then, in fact, this supervision which is exercised by the Government 
engineer w’as onty in favour of economy and of insuring efficiency?—No ; it was 
precisely the reverse. I have no doubt it doubled the price of our sleepers. 

] 559 - How do you make that out r—In this way. I could have bought sleepers 
in Malabar for one rupee each ; by this system we were obliged to pay tw'o, and 
and two and a half rupees each, principally caused by the limited number of 
people w ho were able to enter into the contracts. If we had been allowed to buy 
the sleepers on the spot, we could have done so very readily. If a man brought 
me 100 sleepers, and I was allowed to buy them and to pay for them, I should get 
an unlimited supply ; but upon the other system only a few men of large capital 
are able to undertake the supply, and they charge high prices because the small 
men are driven out of the field. 

1560. You think that you should be at liberty to make your own purchases 
free from control ?—Not free from control ; but I would have the control exercised 
in laying dow n the rules, and not in fettering the actions of the officers after the 
rules were laid down. 

156.. It must be apparent to you that if power w r ere given to a person 
employed upon public works to make his own purchases, the State might suffer 
considerable loss, either from want of ability, or from want of honesty of purpose 
in the individual, or a desire to spend the public money for his own personal 
advantage, and that therefore the system of control is absolutely necessary in the 
interest of the State ?—I quite agree with that. 

1562. Mr. Campbell.']. You were allowed without control to contract for the 
purchase of some classes of materials, and not others ?—Every class except 
sleepers, 

1563. What object had the Government in view in allowing you to contract for 
one class and not for another ?—I cannot conceive the reason, except that the 
Government engineer, in one of his reports, said that it was ignoring the super¬ 
vision of the Government; it did not ignore it, but it made it quite as efficient. 

1564. This supervision was exclusively confined to the sleepers.?—It was. 

1565. And no check was put upon the other work, as indicated by the honour¬ 
able Member ?—No check whatever. 

1566. But a check which would meet the difficulty he suggested might have 
been imposed, and still would not have impeded the work ?—I would not have 
agreed to anything which did not act up to the spirit of the restrictions which the 
honourable Member has referred to. 

1567. Chairman.] The gallant Colonel in his questions to you has twice made 
use of the word “ subordinate,” and has asked whether subordinates ought to have 
the uncontrolled power of making purchases of this kind ; I wish to know whether, 
in your opinion, it is fair to consider in the light of a subordinate a man in your 
position charged with the construction of great works of this kind, having all the 
labour under his control, and the whole responsibility of carrying out those works ? 
—No ; so little did I understand the question to be put in that light, that I did 
not take the gallant Colonel’s remarks as applying to myself, but rather to those 
w'ho were under me. 

1568. Colonel Sykes.] If there be a superior controlling everyone else, every 
one else must be subordinate ?—Yes. 

1569. There was a superior controlling?—Yes, but the word is generally used 
in another sense. 

1570. Chairman.] Do you consider that the Government Supervisor is strictly 
responsible for the execution of the works which you are called upon to construct, 
or that he is merely there as a check upon extravagant outlay, and that alone ?— 

I do not think the responsibility would rest upon him at all. 

1571. Then in that case it is hardly fair to consider the chief acting engineer 
of the railway as strictly subordinate to the Government officer?—-No. 

0.61. n 4 1572. Did 


Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


17 May 1858. 



104 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. G. B. Bruce . 


17 May 1858. 


1572. Did not the home Government finally approve of the plan which you 
suggested for the purchase of sleepers ?—I have understood that the railway com¬ 
pany have since sent out instructions, with the sanction, of course, of the Govern¬ 
ment at home, to carry out the plan I originally proposed. 

1573. Were directions sent out to that effect?—I understand so. 

1574. What is your authority for stating that?—My authority is Mr. Walker, 
the managing director of the Madras Railway. 

1575. Do 1 understand you to say that the home Government sent out sanction 
for the purchase of sleepers by the railway authorities to be paid for in ready 
money ?—That is what 1 have understood from the gentleman I have named. 

1576. Colonel Sykes.~\ Can any railway be opened for public use without the 
report of the superintending engineer?—No ; neither here nor in India. 

1577. Mr. T. G. Baring. ] Have you ever been delayed in putting down your 
rails from the want of a sufficient number of sleepers ?—I can hardly tell you ; it 
was more upon parts of the line that were not ready that we felt the difficulty. 

1578. On that part of the line already opened has the laying down of the rails 
been delayed from the want of sleepers ?—I do not think it has. 

1579. Mr Crawford .] Is the railway company, as represented at Madras, 
considered by the public there, both European and native, to be a subordinate 
department of the Government?—No. 

1580. Is it not rather looked upon as a large corporation carrying out, in 
concert with the Government, a great public work ?—Decidedly so. 

1581. And subject to the control only of the Government for the purpose of 
limiting the power of excessive expenditure on the part of the railway authorities 
with respect to the capital upon which the Government guarantee the interest?— 
That is the view generally taken of it. 

1582. Do you think that is the fair and proper one?—Unquestionably. 

1,583. In a question put to you just now, I think the words “ public money ” 

were used ; do you consider the term “public money” to be a term properly 
applicable to the funds of a railway company ?—Certainly not; it is the share¬ 
holders’ money. 

1584. Nor would these works in India probably be considered as Government 
works ?—No, they were never looked upon in that light. 

1585. So far as your experience will enable you to ascertain, can you tell me 
whether the natives in the interior of the Madras Presidency are familiar with the 
system of supplying goods under rigid forms of tender?—They know nothing 
about it, and are afraid of it. 

1586. What is it that they apprehend when they have a printed form of tender 
put before them to sign, or are called upon to supply goods in that form ?—I can 
hardly say; there is some fear, which they cannot describe, that they are to be led 
into something, they do not know what. 

1587. I believe there are various works in different parts of the Madras Presi¬ 
dency carried on by Europeans, in the nature of sugar works, and indigo works, 
and so forth ?—Yes. 

1588. l)o you suppose that when any of these gentlemen are about to build a 
factory for the manufacture of sugar, or indigo, that they invite the natives to 
supply them with everything they want in the form of a written tender?—I am 
quite sure that they would not get what they wanted if they did, in nine cases out 
of ten, at the prices they ought to get them for. 

1589. Then it comes to this, that in inviting supplies by tender, you are resort¬ 
ing to a mode of proceeding with which the native mind is not only not familiar, 
but which the native mind views with prejudice and alarm ?—No doubt. 

1590. Do you think that that arises from a feeling on the part of the parties 
that they will not get as good terms, or that they may be tied up by legal con¬ 
ditions ?—I think it is the latter; I think they have some fear of legal conditions. 

1591. Mr .Campbell-] Have not the natives generally an aversion to signing 
documents?—I do not exactly say that. 

1592. Mr. Crawford.'] Are the forests from which the sleepers would be sup¬ 
plied by the natives, under the control of the Government, or are they private 
property?—I think they are generally under the control of the Government; you 
require a Government order to be allowed to cut timber in them. 

1593. Does the Government show any jealousy in admitting persons to cut 
timber in the forests ?—The forests, I think, have been very much abused, and 

the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 105 

the Government are beginning to look after them a little better than they did ; but 
there is not any undue jealousy. 

1594 - For what purpose are the forests resorted to ; is it for timber for sleepers, 
or for building, or for the burning of charcoal ?—The natives use it for both; 
they cut down timber for building purposes, and to a large extent for lbe burning 
of charcoal. 

1 595 * Would you not require a different description of wood for charcoal to 
that which you use for building purposes?—I do not know what kind they 
use for burning charcoal. I know that at Beypoor the iron company use a large 
quantity. 

1596* Do you know from what source they derive their supplies?—From the 
jungles of the river, near Beypoor. 

1597. Have you seen that wood which finds its way down to the works for 
conversion into charcoal ?—I think it is converted into charcoal in the jungles. 

1598. Have you obtained any supply of sleepers for your railway from the Bay 
of Bengal ?—We got a little teak on one occasion. We have had a great deal of 
teak for ordinary building purposes, but not for sleepers. 

1599. From what quarter has your supply of sleepers been ?—We have had a 
great deal from the jungles towards Cuddapah, and a great deal also from Cuttack, 
and we have had a great many also from the forests near Malabar. 

1600. Do you lay down the sleepers made out of that wood without any pre¬ 
paration being applied to them ?—Yes. 

1601. Have you found the sleepers answer?—When we got really good wood, 
they answered very well. We have sometimes been cheated by the natives palm¬ 
ing off upon us the wrong kinds of wood; they resort to all sorts of tricks in 
order to succeed in their objects. 

1602. Have you suffered very much from the depredation of the white ant? 
—No. 

1603. Do you attribute that to a fact, which has been noticed on many occasions, 
that the white ants will not attack the sleepers over which a railway train is 
passing?—Yes, they do not like the motion of the trains, and besides that the 
ballast is generally not very agreeable to them; they require soil rather than 
sharp sand or stones ; the vibration disturbs them. 

1604. Have you imported any sleepers from Europe?—Yes, but not very 
many; I think we imported about 20,000 on one occasion, because we were 
afraid of running short, and I think probably we should have done so and should 
have been delayed, but for the arrival of these sleepers. 

1605. How have they answered?—They answered very well indeed; they 
were creosoted Baltic timber. 

1606. They were not subjected to the process of Kyanising ?—No. 

1607. You have only had to deal with creosoted sleepers?—Yes. 

1608. Colonel Sykes.] Are you not aware that the natives had undertaken 
contracts in different parts of the country ?—In the Presidency towns; but not up 
country, so far as I am aware. 

1609. On the public works all over India?—Not generally speaking. 

1610. You do not know that?—I do not know that. The engineer officers 
up country, do not, so far as my intercourse with them allows me to speak, 
generally adopt that system. 

1611. Are you aware that the Court of Directors has further given orders in 
the Public Works Departments, that all works which can he performed by contract 
shall be so performed ?—Very likely. It is a very good order indeed ; but there 
are many things which you cannot so carry out. 

1612. Are the forests you speak of private property, or are they the property 
of Government?—The Government have a control over them, hut the exact 
relation in which the Government stand to them I do not know. 

1613. Supposing they belong to the Government, you then would have no 
right to cut wood in them ?—Not without leave. 

1614* Are you aware that the Government derives a revenue from the sale of 
wood in the forests of India?—I believe they do in some cases ; I never said that 
I thought we should have a right to go into the jungles to cut wood. 

1615. Are you aw ; are that in consequence of the destruction both of timber 
and underwood which has been taken for charcoal purposes, it has been neces¬ 
sary to establish conservators of the forest ?—Yes, and it is a very proper pro¬ 
ceeding l think. 

O.61. 


Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


17 May 1858. 


o 


1616. Sir 



Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


17 May 1858. 


106 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

1616. Sir James Elphinstone ] What, forest do you get your sleepers from ?— 
Some are brought from Malabar. 

1617. Do you get them from the Patna Hills?—I do not know the Pulna 
Hills. 

1618. Do you know anything about the wood trade at Malabar?—Yes; I 
have had a good deal to do with it; we get our wood principally at Calicut 
and Bey poor. 

1619. Have you any difficulty in getting the size of wood you require ?—No, 
not generally speaking. 

1620. Was it principally teak?—Not principally; we have had the Van gey 
wood, and others. 

1621. Is that a good wood for sleepers?—I am speaking of it not so much for 
sleepers; we bought it for ordinary railway purposes; for building and for wag¬ 
gons, and things of that kind; our hands were not tied in that description of 
work, but we could buy them ourselves. 

1622. At what price could you buy your sleepers?—I have bought them as 
low as 12 annas, that is about 1 s. 6d. each. 

1623. What did your pickled English sleepers cost?—They cost us, I think, 
about 6 s . 

1624. Were the sleepers which you bought at 12 annas, laid down at the 
point where you wanted them?—That is on the opposite coast; the pickled 
English sleepers went to the Madras side. 

1625. And you bought them at Beypoor for 12 annas?—I have not bought 
many of them at that price, but I bought a good many at one rupee. 

1626. Of teak ?—No ; other woods. 

1627. What did it cost you to lay them down at Madras ?—We never brought 
any from the Malabar coast, but the native sleepers bought at Madras cost us 6 s. 
and 7 s. 

1628. Cut at Salem?—No, cut at Cuttack; there is no large available supply 
at Salem. 

1629. Chairman.'] I wish to ask you whether the general plan laid down in the 
direction of this railway has been adhered to, or whether any diversions of the 
original plan have been suggested or adopted by orders of the Government ?— 
As a whole, the original plan of the course of the line has been followed ; there 
was one instance in which after we had began the works, and had built a good 
many of the bridges, and made some of the embankments, collected our mate-' 
rials, made our roads, and built our bungalows, and so on, we were stopped by 
the Government officer upon 70 miles of the line, and ordered to survey a new 
route. 

1630. Did you make that survey ?—We began to make it. It was partially 
made, but the Madras Government interfered upon the strong remonstrance of 
the Company out there, and ordered that the line should be carried out as it had 
been originally sanctioned. 

1631. Was much delay or much expenditure caused by that temporary sus¬ 
pense of the works?—There was a delay of six weeks in point of time, I think, 
between the stoppage and the order to proceed, but the real amount of delay 
would be far more than that, inasmuch as the people who were gathered together 
under the promise of long-continued work were scattered ; those who had 
made advances to workpeople, such as contractors and so on, were thrown out 
of their contracts, and these were all scattered ; we had about 600 men at the Cau- 
very Bridge who were all scattered, and of course we lost credit, and it is a very 
difficult matter to restore confidence in cases of that kind, and to get the men 
back again. 

1632. Are you prepared to state, of your own knowledge, what the motives of 
the Government were in proposing that change of line ?—1 believe it was that 
the Government engineer thought we could get a better line in another part of 
the country, but of course those considerations should have been borne in mind 
before the line was settled and sanctioned ; the Government engineer said that he 
had requested me to examine this new line which he suggested, and that I had 
not done so, and that afterwards finding it had not been thoroughly examined, 
he wished it to be done. That appears in a letter published by him since I 
left India; but that was really not the case, inasmuch as the line which he after¬ 
wards reqested me to examine was a different one. On the 23d of May 1836, 

I wrote 



107 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


I wrote in answer to his request that I should examine the line to the north of Mr. G B. Bruce. 
Senkerrydroog, to know whether we could not avoid a rise in the line. --— 

1633. There is, I believe, a range of hills there?—There is, which we wished 17 May 1858. 
to avoid ; in my letter I said, “ w ith regard to the practicability of changing the 

line to the north of Senkerrydroog, I satisfied myself, by personal inspection, 
that no such change could be effected. A granite ridge, connecting the two hills 
of Senkerrydroog and Soonamullay, would necessitate an alteration in the whole 
course of the line through Districts 9, 10, and 11, which should then have 
pursued a course near Woomalwor, west of Kangamuliay and Soonamullay, 
crossing the Cauvery probably above its junction with the Bhowany, thus involving 
another large bridge, and in fact taking a totally different line of country from 
that which has been adopted.” I wrote to explain that we could not come off 
a little west of Salem, and go round Senkerrydroog, because those hills prevented 
us, and I said if we went there we must come oft' near Woomalwor. When I 
said that, the answer of the Government was “go on with the original plan.” 

They never said, “that line near Woomalwor is the very line we want examined,” 
but when I indicated that this was the only course which I could take, they said, 

“ go on with your original works.” We went on, and Colonel Pears now' wu-ites 
to say he asked me to examine the line north of Senkerrydroog, leaving the im¬ 
pression that he told me the line near Woomalwor, which is certainly not the case. 

1634. Were the engineering difficulties which presented themselves in carrying 
the line across that ridge of hills in your opinion, as an engineer, insuperable ?— 

Not by any means; w’e took the line by way of Salem, in order to accommo¬ 
date that town, the largest town, in that part of the country; there was no 
other reason ; no reason showed itself why we should go by Woomalwor at the 
time we were i-topped any more than we had known from the beginning. 

1635. I believe the country over which the railway would have gone, via 
Woomalwor, was not a difficult country for engineering purposes?—No ; it was 
more a commercial question; we went to Salem entirely with a view to the com¬ 
mercial question. 

1636. Was the country in the neighbourhood of Woomalwor a productive 
country, or a country in which there were large commercial towns ?—There were 
no towns; I merely refer to this as a case in which the works had gone on to a 
considerable extent, and we had spent a large amount of money, which was all in 
danger of being thrown away, owing to considerations which ought to have been 
thought of at the outset. 

1637. Were any other diversions from your original plan proposed?—Not of 
any consequence; I alluded to one or two small matters the other day. 

*1638. Mr. Campbell.'] What may have been the loss sustained by the railway 
company by reason of the delay caused by the proposed diversion?—It is impos¬ 
sible to calculate either the loss of time or money, because they had to raise 
the prices considerably, in order to get the people back. 

1639. I suppose it disarranged your previous arrangements and your previous 
staff of labourers ?—Entirely so; and it discouraged everybody. 

1640. Mr. T. G. Baring.] What was the date of this transaction?—August 
1856. 

1641. What was the length of the line upon which this divergence was sug¬ 
gested?—About 70 miles. 

1642. Did the consulting engineer, Colonel Pears, recommend farther inquiry? 

—Yes. 


1643. EM ^ le Madras Government support him ?—No. 

1644. They supported you ?—Yes ; Colonel Pears wrote, “ by the authority of 
the Government,” to stop the works, and by the authority of the Government in 
realitv the works were ordered to go forward again : Colonel Pears wrote literally 
without the authority of the Government, but in the name of the Government, 
which was in one sense repudiated by the Government when they became 
cognisant of it. 

1645. I suppose you mean to say, that after the consideration of the subject, 
and after hearing the reasons, the Government supported the original line.' 1 Yes. 

1646. Chairman.] I wish now to ask you a iew questions in regard to the 
supervisions. Have you experienced on your own line inconvenience in conse¬ 
quence of the supervision over the working of the line ?—Yes ; I think it has been 
very injurious to the proper working of the line. 

1647. Were there not some very minute specifications required by the Govern- 



io8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. G. B. Buce. ment in regard to locomotives, trucks and other carriages employed on the line ?— 

-- I think half my time was taken up in answering inquiries and giving explana- 

17 May 1858. tions, which really had very little practical bearing, and were productive of very 
little practical good; the most striking one that I find in this report of the 
railway departments is one which does not refer specially to myself, but 
to the* locomotive department. The Government engineer called for a statement 
which “ should show in parallel columns the names and number given to the 
engines, the usual description and terms of its several component parts, its evapo¬ 
rating power, its weight, cost, consumption of fuel with an assumed load, and 
speed.” He said also, “ You are requested to furnish drawings of each different 
description of engines and tenders, as they are received. Each drawing should 
have some letter or distinguishing mark, so that when several engines of a pre¬ 
cisely similar description are entered in the above return, a reference to one and 
the same drawing will be sufficient. I have further to request, that I may be 
furnished with a descriptive statement of the several articles of rolling stock, 
carriages, waggons, vans, &c., which may have been already constructed, or 
which it is intended to supply to your line, with drawing of each class. The 
above statement is required to show the description of carriage intended, and 
general dimensions, capacity, weight, number of wheels, estimated quantity of 
wrought materials, wood and iron, &c.” Those and other similar inquiries which 
were easily made, but were very difficult to answer, occupied the time of the 
officials of the railway company, very much to the detriment of the progress of 
the works. 

1648. I wish to ask you whether you had any one under your orders who was 
capable of making drawings such as those that were required r—The returns of 
course were made under the locomotive superintendent, but I know he had no 
one to do it, and 1 had no one in my office. 

1649. Had you much difficulty in procuring draughtsmen for the purpose of 
the railway?—Very great difficulty ; the number of drawings which the Govern¬ 
ment required from us was so great, that I applied to be allowed to have draughts¬ 
men from this country, but it was refused ; they ultimately sent out one, I think. 
Of course the best men were employed in the Government offices, which had 
been, previously to our going there, the only school in which the natives were 
brought up. 

1650. Do the natives show much aptitude for drawing? — They are good 
copyists, but generally speaking they are not men who can draw from an idea or 
a sketch. 

1651. They are not skilful at originating plans?—No. The Government gave 
us a great deal of trouble in that way. Then I applied to be allowed to employ 
the draughtsmen overtime. They w ? ork from ten to five. I had some good men 
who would have been willing to work over-hours for extra pay, but the Governor 
in Council did not approve of giving me that power. I was not allowed to make 
an arrangement even so simple as that. 

1652. When you asked to be allowed to make that arrangement, what was 
the reason stated by the Government for refusing it ?—I do not remember. 

1653. Do you remember the date of that application ?—No, I do not ; but I 
think it w as about the beginning of 1855. 

1654. Mr. Crawford.'] Where were your locomotives and rolling stock designed ? 
—They were designed in England by Mr. Rendel, and sent out by the railway 
company. 

1655. Are you aware whether the locomotive and rolling stock w r ere of the 
same design as those used on the East Indian Railway Line ?—I think they 
were. 

1656. And the same gauge of course?—Yes; we had some lighter engines 
than those used by the East India Company, and some, which, I believe, were 
the same. 

1657. Had you any discussions with the consulting engineer at Madras in 
reference to the fitness or otherwise of the locomotive or rolling stock sent out 
from this country?—Not in Madras; there was some discussion at home, I think, 
between our chairman and Mr. Rendel about it. 

1658. Was any exception taken by the consulting engineer to the stock sent 
out?—I do not remember any. 

1659. Have y° u any knowledge of the object for which so many drawings 
were required to be made and sent ?—I cannot conceive any object, unless it was 

that 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


that the engineer wished at some time that they should have a line in the 
Madras Presidency in their own hands, and that then they would have all the 
facts and figures before them. 

1660. In point of fact, the result of that would have been to have made your 
railway company pay for any plans and drawings which the Government mi-lit 
require for any purpose to which your railway company was not a party ?-That 
would have been so, if my idea be correct. 

1661. Had you any discussion with consulting engineers as to the principle 

upon which those locomotives were built?_No. 

1662. Mr. T. G. Baring.] The discussion between Mr. Rendel and Colonel 
.-ims was, 1 think you stated, with reference to the class of engines to be sent 
out to Madras ?—I think it was. 

^ 1663. Had not that discussion some reference to the weight of the engines r_ 


1664. And of the rolling stock generally ? —Yes. 

1 Were not engines of a different description as to weight sent out to 

Madras in the first instance?—Yes; some were like those of the East India 
Railway Company, and some were of a lighter description. 

Wouid it not be of considerable importance to know how the engines 
of different classes worked, and which were best suited for Indian railways ?—• 
Yes, it wmuld be so. 

1667. The weight would make a difference in the freight and also in the 
expense ?—Yes. 

1668. Is it not possible that those returns may have been called for with a view 
to ascertain, in the first instance, the expense of working the different classes of 
engines?—No; t should think the inquiries themselves were not at all of a 
practical character, and could not be useful in the least degree in accomplishing 
that result. 

1669. You think they were not of a nature to give that information ?—No. 

1670. Do you state that of your own knowledge?—Yes. 

1671. Were the inquiries made of you?—No; but I know enough about 
locomotive engines to know that. 

1672. Did you see all the correspondence about it?—I believe I may say 
I did. 


1673. Had you any conversation with Colonel Pears?—I do not know 7 that I 
ever had. 

1674. On any occasion, has Colonel Pears stated, or implied, that he wanted 
these drawings in order to procure engines for the Government?—No. 

1 ^ 75 * The supposition you refer to is completely your own impression?— 
Exactly. 

1676. You have no ground except that for what you have stated?—Except 
that Colonel Pears, I know, w'ould like to have a line on behalf of the Govern¬ 
ment. 

1677. What line do you suppose lie wished for the Government?—I can only 
turn to his own reports, in which he speaks of one to Cuddapah ; I forget the 
exact course of the line. 

1678. Is not that already sanctioned to be made by your company?—It is, 
very much against Colonel Pears’ good will. 

1679. When was it sanctioned?—I am not quite sure that the contract is 
signed yet. 

1680. It has been sanctioned very lately ?—Very lately. 

1681. You think that his ordering the drawings of the engines might have 
referred to that line ?—I do not think it w'as the direct Cuddapah line ; but when 
I was asked what could be the reason, I said, that was the only one that I could 
suggest. 

1682. You do not wish to assert it as a fact ?—I cannot do so. 

1683. Chairman.'] Have you any special correspondence to which you can 
refer, in which Colonel Pears has expressed his views upon this line of railway ? 
—I cannot lay my hands on it; it is not in my possession. 

1684. Mr. Crawford.] Who is the chairman of the Madras Railway ?— 
General Sim. 

1685. He was an officer of the Madras Engineers, was he not ?—Yes. 

1686. And Colonel Pears was a subaltern of his, in the same corps ?—Yes. 

1687. Mr. T. G. Baring.] In answer to Question 1248, in which you were 

0,61. O 3 asked 


Mr. 6r. B. Bruce. 


17 Maj 1858. 



1 10 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. G. D. Bruce. a? ked to what cause you attributed the delay, if any, in the construction of the 

_ Madras Railway, you say, “ I think that the way in which the contract between 

17 May 1858. the company and the Government has been carried out lias been prejudicial to 
the progress of the works ; and 1 think aiso we have always had too small a staff 
to carry on such an extensive undertaking.” Will you be good enough more 
fully to explain what you mean by the latter part of that answer?—I mean that 
we have always had too few engineers. 

1688. To what do you attribute that ?—We always wrote home for them, and 
never got them ; that is all I can say upon the subject. 

1689. Had you any difference with Colonel Pears upon the subject of the staff' 
of engineers ?—No; I never had any misunderstanding with him on that subject, 
to the best of my knowledge. 

1690. Did he not in 1854 recommend to the Government that a much larger 
staff of engineers should be sent out from this country ?—I cannot tell wilhout 
referring. I never said it was Colonel Pears’s fault that we had not a proper staff 
of engineers. I merely said that that was the case. 

1691. Do you recollect the date at which you made the representation about 
the want of engineers ?—At the end of 1853. 

1692. Are you aware whether that reference was in point of fact agreed to by 
Colonel Pears ?—I have no reason to think that it was not. 

1693. Did he not recommend 12 engineers to be sent out?—I do not 
remember ; I asked for 18. 

1694. By the report it appears that you asked for 15, and he recommended 
12 ?—I asked for 18. 

1695. Are you aware what course the Board of Directors in this country took 
upon that?—I am aware that they sent me out very few engineers. 

1696. Do you know whether they in the first instance recommended that only 
two men should be sent out ?—I am not aware of the particulars. 

1697* I find that on the 10th of July, the Board of Directors requested that 
the addition of two engineers might be sanctioned by the Court of Directors?—I 
am not aware of it. 

1698. Did you ever hear that the Court of Directors of the East India Com¬ 
pany pressed upon the court of directors of the Railway Company the necessity 
of sending out more engineers?—I am not aware of it. 

1699. Are you aware that subsequent to that, on 19th August, the Board of 
directors of the company asked for permission to send out two more engineers 
only ?—I do not know these details sufficiently to answer the question accurately. 

1700. And that subsequently the Court of Directors again brought to the 
notice of the Railway Board, the necessity of sending out more engineers ?— 
Very likely. 

1701. Are you prepared to state whether the want of engineers was the fault of 
the Government or of the Railway Company ?—I am not prepared to say whose fault 
it was. 

1702. Admitting that the Court of Directors of the East India Company 
pressed upon the Railway Company the necessity of sending them out, would 
not the responsibility rest more upon the directors of the Railway Company?— 
No doubt. 

1703. What proportion of the delay has occurred in consequence of your not 
having a larger staff ?—I could hardly state the proportions; it has been 
seriously felt. 

1704. Do you consider that the delay which has occurred is owing more to the 
inefficiency of your staff of engineers, or to Government interference in the mode 
of supervision ?—I should say that they have both acted very detrimentally to the 
progress of the works. 

1 7 ° 5 * Can you express an opinion as to which has operated most in keeping 
you back?—No, I do not know that I can go into facts and figures upon that 
question. 

1706. Would you say that they had an equal tendency to delay?—I do not 
know whether it is fair to say anything about it; it rests entirely upon 
imagination. 

1707. As regards the delay; what additional work, in your opinion, could you 
have done up to the present time if there had been no obstructions either from 
Government interference or from the want of an adequate staff of engineers?— 

I would 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


I would have finished the whole line from Madras to Beypoor, and opened it, 
before I left India. 

1708. In what time?—In four years. 

1709. How many miles is that?—About 400. 

17!0. You think that could have been finished and opened before you left 
India?—I have not the shadow of a doubt about it. 

1711. In answer to Question 1239, y ou said that there was some delay in 
opening the first part of the line in consequence of your having received sanc¬ 
tion only for 50 miles, and afterwards for 20 miles; what was the cause of that? 
—The course of the line beyond the first 50 miles was doubtful. They did not 
know whether we should go straight or diverge, and therefore we were ordered 
to go on with the first 50 miles, and after it was decided how the line should 
go, we were to complete the remaining 20 miles. 

1712. It was a question as to the direction of the line?—Yes; the question 
was, whether we should go up via Palmanair to Bangalore or whether we should 
go vid Vaniambaddy. 

1713- When was that question settled?—I think it was about the end of 1853. 

1714. Was it settled when the extended contract was made with the company 
in November 1853?—I think it was. I know we began the works upon the 
extension about April 1854. 

1715. Do you attach any blame to any one with regard to the delay?—No. 

1716. It was delay necessary to determine the proper route?—Yes, I 
think so. 

1717. Sir J. Elphinstone .] Supposing you had carte blanche to make a line in 
India, such an average line as the Madras Line, and to cost about the average sum 
that that costs, at what rate could you make 100 miles?—It would depend so 
very much upon the character of the country. 

1718. What would be the average of the Beypoor Line ?—The cost of the part 
that is completed was about 6,000 l. per mile, including stations, but without 
rolling stock. 

1719. How many engineers, according to your experience, supposing you was 
to make 100 miles, would be a proper staff l —The staff which I asked for was 
perhaps rather too small, but I never even had that; it was one engineer to every 
25 miles, and under him two or three European inspectors. 

1720. What would you do for time-keepers ?—We had native time-keepers. 

1721. Would not European time-keepers be more useful?—They would in 
many respects ; I think the mixture of Europeans and natives is the best plan. 
We never trusted entirely to native time-keepers, but we had Europeans moving 
about, so as to check their keeping of the time. We never paid any money 
through the hands of the natives. 

1722. Whom had you to superintend the building of the bridges?—We had 
old pensioners, but generally they were very inefficient. 

1723. Are you not apprehensive of the probable effect upon the brickwork?— 
Yes; and I think I referred to that in a previous part of my examination. 

1724. May you not have run a great risk with the skew bridges?—Yes. 

1725. Ought not those bridges particularly to have been under European super¬ 
intendence ?—Unquestionably. 

1726. Assuming that for every 25 miles you had an European engineer, you 
would require overseers and time-keepers, and for each large work, I suppose, an 
individual superintendent? — I do not know that you would employ European 
time-keepers to any great extent; I am afraid you could not get them, and they 
would be very much exposed to the weather. It is necessary that a time-keeper 
should be out in all weathers, and you would probably only employ Europeans as 
overlookers of time-keepers. I suppose if you had an engineer for each 25 miles, 
and about four Europeans under him, that would answer very well. 

1727. That would make a total of about 25 men altogether on the engineer¬ 
ing staff?—Yes. 

1728. Would you require a staff of draughtsmen ?—Yes. East Indians some¬ 
times make good draughtsmen, but as a rule Europeans also are necessary. 

1729. Mr. Crawfoi'd.~\ I wish you to particularise the staff of your railway 
company in India?—There was one assistant engineer upon each 25 miles; over 
three of these districts of 25 miles each, was one resident engineer. 

1730. Will you describe the process you go through in order to obtain addi¬ 
tional officers, or a supply of materials; in that case what steps do you take to 

0.61. O 4 make 


Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


17 May 1858. 





12 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. G. B. Bruce, make your wants known with a view of getting either men or materials ? If 1 
wanted stores I should write to the agent of the company for them; the agent 
17 May 1858. woultJ wrJte tQ the Government engineer; the Government engineer would pro¬ 
cure the sanction of the Government and send back to the agent; the agent would 
then communicate with the Board of directors in this country ; and they would 
communicate with the India House; the India House then would communicate 
with the Board of Control, and then it would come back to the directors of the 
railway company. 

1731. Mr. C. Bruce.] Does that system still prevail?—I think it prevails 
still. 

1732. Mr. Crawford.] You have described the process by which you obtain 
your supply of stores, or any addition to your staff of officers ; I suppose it would 
be necessary to go through the same process to procure the consent of the 
Government to an increase of salary ?—Yes. 

1 733 - So far as you know, the agent in India has no power, even with the 
concurrence of the Government, to increase the salary of the officers ?—No. 

1734- It can only be done by the Board of directors in this country?—Yes. 

1735. Mr. T. G. Baring.] Was there not some limit at which the Government 
at Madras might give their sanction with regard to establishments connected with 
your railway ?—No officer sent out from this country can have his salary raised 
without the sanction of the Board at home. 

1736. That would apply to engineers sent out from this country?—Sent out 
from this country. Those who were not appointed from this country had their 
salaries fixed with the sanction of the Madras Government. 

1737. Beyond that there was a limit which the railway company here would not 
allow them to exceed ?—There was originally, but it w as found unworkable, and 
was abandoned. 

1738. The Government there might do what they pleased?—Yes. 

1739. Chairman."] Is it not the case, that so much delay has occurred in cer¬ 
tain instances in the procuring of stores from England, that the necessity for 

their use has ceased to exist when these articles have arrived, some 17 or 18 
months after they were ordered ?—There is one case which occurs to me. I 
indented for waggon iron work in April 1853, and I received it in April or May 
1855, and in the meantime I had made my own waggons. Of course they were 
useful when they did arrive, but there was a delay of two years. 

1740. Was not an application made for some iron pumps required for the 
purposes of excavation in the construction of some bridge works in which con¬ 
siderable delay occurred ?—Yes; and by the last mail from Madras I had a letter 
in which a sentence somewhat to this effect occurs, “ the pumps which you indented 
for two years ago, have just arrived.” 

1741. Mr. A. H. Baring.] Could you not avoid that delay by indenting for 
articles before you wanted them ?—So we did, but we did not anticipate a delay of 
two years. 

1742. Knowing the time that it takes, could you not indent for them in 1854, 
if you wanted them in 1856?—I wanted those waggons almost immediately on 
my arrival; I wanted them at the end of 1853, or the beginning of 1854, and I 
could not sit folding my arms at Madras for two years until the stores arrived. 

1743. Could not the engineer, by applying beforehand, have got the articles 
required by the time they were needed ?—Certainly not. 

1744- Chairman.] Is it not the case that articles may be rendered necessary by 
accidental circumstances which you cannot foresee?—Yes. 

W 45 - Sir J. Elphinstone.] When you arrived you had first of all to ascertain 
w hat the resources of the country were ?—To a great extent. We never sent 
home for anything until we know that we want it. 

1746. Your company did not know what they would find in the country ?_ 

Not until we found out by experience. 

1747. Chairman.] Can you trace the delay that occurred to any particular 
cause ?—No; I think it is the fault of the system more than any individual 
delinquency. 

1748. Air. A. H. Baring.] How long would it take before an indent was 
forwarded from Madras to this country?—I can hardly tell. I think it would be 
a great improvement if the stores, once sanctioned by the Government in India, 
were allowed to be sent by the Board of directors of the railway company 

immediately 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 113 

immediately upon the receipt of the application from India, instead of requiring 
the double sanction in this country. 

1 749 - Do you know how long it takes to get that sanction ?—I do not. 

1750. Sir J. Elphinstone .] When you indent for a certain thing in India, do 
you know what time elapses before it is laid before the Board in London?—I 
have not the means of knowing that. 

Colonel John Pitt Kennedy , called in; and Examined. 

1 75 1 * Chairman.] WILL you tell the Committee what position you occupy? — 
I am an Engineer by profession. I first joined the Royal Engineers, and after 
about 10 years service in that corps I went into the Line, in order to carry on 
certain public works in the Ionian islands, where I continued for several years. 

1752. Will you tell the Committee what posts you have filled in India, and 
what your present position in this country is?—I first went to India as Military 
Secretary to Sir Charles Napier in 1849; when he was about coming home, 
Lord Dalhousie offered me the appointment of Consulting Engineer to the Govern¬ 
ment of India in the Railway Department. 

1 753 * How long did you fill that post?—I was appointed some time in the 
summer of 1850, but I did not join until November, when Sir Charles Napier 
returned; I came away in the spring of 1851, my health having suffered from the 
climate. 

1 754 - When did you leave India?—In March or April 1851. 

1 755 • In what capacity are you now engaged in England?—I am now con¬ 
sulting engineer for the Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway. 

1756. Your attention has, I believe, been constantly and actively directed to 
the whole subject of railway communication in India ?—Yes, it has; and also to 
railway construction at home for a. considerable time previously. 

1757. Do you attach any importance to the construction of railways in India? 
—I think it is a most important point for the improvement of India in every way, 
and also for the maintenance of the political and commercial interests of England. 

1758. Have you made any calculation as to the extent of railway communica¬ 
tion required in India?—Yes; I was lately called upon by the United Service 
Institution to deliver a lecture upon the subject, and I went very minutely into 
it, particularly with reference to the change which the late mutinies have pro¬ 
duced, and that investigation led me to suppose that the military expenditure of 
India, which, upon an average of the last four years, previous to the meeting, 
amounted to somewhere about 10,000,000/. per annum, must be increased to 
13,000,000/. In the course of the analysis I made I went into the comparison 
of what the army must be for India with railways and without; I believe that a 
system of railways would render possible a reduction of the military expenditure 
that must now be incurred of at least 7,000,000/. per annum ; with regard to the 
importance of railways, although the calculation of military expenditure is one that 
can easily be made, I conceive it to be one far inferior in importance to the effect 
upon the industrial resources there, and to the on-going of Government in every 
department; those acquainted with India will know the enormous districts which 
it is necessary to place under individual Europeans; and as regards the Govern¬ 
ment supervision and political interest attaching to India, I look upon the 
extension of railways as absolutely essential. 

1759. Have you made any calculation as to the probable amount of money and 
time that would be required for the construction of such a railway system as that 
which you consider necessary for India?—You must first consider what would be 
the railway system ; and, in order to do that, I went into a comparison relative to 
the amounts in different countries. I took, as two specimens, the amount we 
had in England, and the amount which the Americans have thought it necessary 
to establish in the United States. England would not be a fair comparison to 
found a system upon with reference to India, because the enormous development 
of our industrial resources is such that we require a much larger amount of rail¬ 
way in proportion to the area than any other country in the world ; but America 
is a fair comparison. I find that the extent of railways existing in America is 
about one mile of railway to every 112 square miles of territory. The proportion 
in the United Kingdom, I think, is as large as one mile to every 14 square 
miles, and, in the manufacturing counties, one to every five square miles. In 
speaking of the proportion of railways, and in comparing the necessities of India 

0.61. P with 


Mr. O. B. Bruce. 


17 May 1858. 


Colonel 
J. P. Kennedy. 




il 4 


minutes of evidence taken before the 


Colonel with those of America, we must recollect the population as well. In America 
Kennedy, there are about nine inhabitants to the square mile, but in India there are 124 

--- to the square mile; and therefore the ratio of the importance of introducing rail- 

May 1858. ways into India is 14 to 1 as compared with America, and, taking the popula¬ 
tion into account, it must also be remembered that America is chiefly an agricul¬ 
tural country. 

1760. Mr. Cheetham.'] You state that America is supplied with railway 
accommodation to an extent of one mile to every 112 square miles; you are 
probably acquainted with the projected railways, for which the guarantees of the 
Government have been given in India ?—Yes; the calculation upon which I have 
proceeded would give a total of about 12,000, 

1761. Chairman .] The extent of the lines now sanctioned amounts, I believe, 
to between 3,000 and 4,000 miles ?—I believe somewhere about that, but I do 
not recollect the proportion; 12,000 would give the American proportion. 

1762. Mr. Camming Bruce. ] You say that the American proportion would be 
far below what the population in India would give?—It would be only one- 
fourteenth, if you take the population into account; but supposing the 12,000 
miles were laid down mathematically, and at equal distances, which of course 
they could not be, you would find the most distant part from a railway to be 
about 66 miles; that would be about three forced marches, or six ordinary 
marches, for troops. 

1763. Chairman .] If we may take as the basis of calculation the actual cost at 
which railways have been constructed in India, you would expect them to cost 
6,000 /. per mile ?—I trust that our railway, although going through very expen¬ 
sive districts, will not exceed 6,000/., including rolling stock for one train daily 
in each direction. 

1764. Taking the 6,000/. as the basis of your calculation, what sum of money 
will be required to give the system of railway extension which would be necessary 
to place India upon the same level as America ?—£. 72,000,000. 

1765. Is that a sum which you think would be sufficient to provide India with 
a fair amount of railway accommodation ?—If 12,000 miles could be made for 
72,000,000/., I think that would be an admirable beginning. 

1766. Does your calculation apply to a single or to a double line ?—To a single 
line. 

1767. Can you state what the difference would be between the cost of a double 
and a single line ?—I think it would be about as eight to five. 

1768. Is it not the case that the most costly portion of the works, such as 
bridges, and works for crossing the rivers, are constructed with a view to the line 
becoming double eventually ?—With regard to that, I think that all the piers and 
abutments must be constructed for a double line; the principle we are adopting 
is not, I believe, the same that is followed on many other lines: we carry both 
the piers and superstructure from England ; l think that gives us a great advantage 
with regard to time and cost of construction. 

1769. Have you made any calculation as to the probable amount of time that 
would be required for furnishing India with such a system of railways as you have 
described ?—So far as our experience goes, I think that we can proceed at the 
rate of three years for the construction of any given portion, limiting, however, 
the advance upon each head of work to 200 miles per annum; that is to say, if 
we had a line leading from a port on which we must carry forward our materials 
in order to lay them down, then the limitation of our progress will depend upon 
our power of bringing up our materials for laying down our rail, and ballasting 
our road ; because we must bring up our materials by the road that we ourselves 
make. 

1770. Supposing that you have never less at any one period than 600 miles 

under construction, what extent of line would you undertake to open annually ?_ 

I think at the end of the third year we should open 200 miles, and thenceforth 
200 miles annually, provided we always have 600 miles in hand. 

1771. What do you say about the seasons ?—The reason that I specify three 

years is, that we must have one clear winter season for making our plans and 

sections, and we must have two distinct years for our construction, because it is 
necessary, before we lay down our ballast and permanent way, that the embank¬ 
ments should be well seasoned by the monsoon rain. Although we could get 

through the absolute work in a shorter period than two years, I could not 

calculate upon opening more rapidly than I have stated, in consequence of the 
necessity we have for the monsoon seasoning. 


3772 . Is 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 115 

1772. Is the construction of Indian railways now going on at the rate you 
have just described ?—The construction of our railway is going on at that rate, 
so far as the amount that was given us to construct would enable us, that is to say, 
we shall not have occupied more than the time that has been specified in opening 
our line from the time that we got possession of the land, not from the time 
that we have nominally been a railway company. 

1773. Have you experienced any delay or obstruction in the construction of 
your line ?—The most important delay I have to state is that in getting possession 
of the land. Our first surveyors went to India on the 20th September 1853; 
they furnished their surveys on the 28th of April 1854 to the local Government, 
and on 3d November 1854 the Supreme Government of India sanctioned the 
main line from Bombay, via Surat and Broach, to Ahmedabad ; on the 16th 
of April 1855 the Honourable Court sanctioned only a remote portion of our line. 

1774. You mean that from Surat to Ahmedabad ?—Yes ; we agitated in every 
possible way to get that portion which the home Government withheld from the 
original sanction that was given by the Governor-General in India, that is from 
Bombay to Surat, which was the most important part of our line to do first; because 
it led from the capital, the great focus of trade. We used every exertion through 
the Chambers of Commerce in Manchester and through the Chambers of 
Commerce in Bombay, and I believe the Governor in Council of Bombay 
urged very earnestly likewise what we were anxious to get; yet not until the 
2d of November 1857 could we obtain consent to make that portion from Bombay 
to Surat. 

1775. That is, after a period of nearly three years had elapsed from obtaining 
the sanction of the local Indian Government to the scheme, the sanction of the 
home Government was obtained for the main scheme ?—For the most important 
part of it 

1776. Can you explain to the Committee what you believe to have been the 
cause which induced the home Government to delay so long the sanction to the 
whole of that scheme?—That is rather a difficult question, but I believe it ori¬ 
ginated entirely with the Board of Control, so far as I have any grounds for 
forming an opinion. 

1777. Why do you think it was the Board of Control, and not the Board of 
Directors that delayed it ?—I think so because I had some conversation with the 
Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Control, and he intimated pretty clearly 
that he was adverse to it. 

1778. Are you able to state the reasons that were given?—There were a vast 
number of very irrelevant reasons given. 

1779. Who was the Parliamentary Secretary?—Mr. Danby Seymour. 

1780. Mr. T. G. Baring .] Do I understand you to say that the recommendation 
of the Government of India, that the line should be made from Bombay to Surat, 
arrived in England in November 1854?—No, I do not think it arrived in England 
until January 1855. 

1781. Had you any communication with Mr. Lowe?—No, I had none what* 
ever. 

1782. It was subsequently to his leaving?—The only person I saw on the 
subject was the Parliamentary Secretary. 

1783. Do you know at what time the question was brought before the Board 01 
Control ?—I cannot recollect the date ; but I know we used every exertion in our 
power to get it sanctioned. 

1784. Mr. H. A. Bruce.] This was probably agitated after the refusal by the 
home Government to sanction the line from Bombay to Surat ? Yes; some time 

1785. Mr. T. G. Baring.] What was the date of that refusal ?—I can scarcely 
call it a refusal; it was the sanction of a distinct portion. The sanction of the 
whole was given in India, but our difficulty arose when we came to deal with 
the authorities at home, who were the only parties we could deal with, because 
we could not get our money until they had given their sanction. 

1786. Chairman.] Describe to the Committee w-hy it was so necessary that the 
sanction of the whole line in its entirety should be obtained? The idea of com¬ 
mencing the distant portions between Surat and Ahmedabad would be like taking 
some part in Scotland, and going down to Leeds, and stopping there, with a line 
of general intercourse to London. 

0.61. P2 1787. Can 


Colonel 

J. P. Kennedy. 


17 May 1858. 






Colonel 

J. V. Kennedy . 


17 May 1858. 


116 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

1787. Can the port of Surat be looked upon as a port of shipment?—Certainly 
not. 

1788. Why?-—I can give you one very good reason; we have tried in every 
way to get our stores from England landed at Surat, and we cannot get a single 
shipowner to undertake it. The monsoon, in the first place, cuts off communi¬ 
cations for four months in the year. Then no large ship could get into the river 
at all, which is about 20 miles in length. 

1789. Is there not also a very inconvenient bar ?—Yes. 

1790. Mr. Cranford .] In the Gulf of Cambay is there not a dangerous shoal r 
—Yes ; there is a bar outside the harbour; but it is a harbour that might be 
made a good deal of. 

1791. Chairman.] Is it the case that, owing to the delay in obtainingsanction for 
the whole extent of line, you will be in the position of having a railway opened out 
of a large productive district, leading to a port which cannot be looked upon as a 
port of shipment ?—Yes ; but I trust we shall overtake the delay. Since the 2d 
November we have had the plans and sections made, I am in hopes, by this time, 
of the whole line; a portion of them were given in some time previous to the 
sending of the reports that were received by the mail before last, and then we had 
leave to construct the first 10 miles southward of the new portion of the extension 
line, but the distant portion would be almost valueless without the southern portion 
of our line. 

1792. Have you any very considerable engineering difficulties to contend with 
in the construction of that portion of the line between Surat and Bombay? — Our 
greatest difficulties are between Surat and Ahmedabad. There we have the three 
largest and most rapid rivers to deal with, namely : the Tap tee, the Nerbudda, 
and the Mhye. They were in the portion first conceded to us, at the same time 
that the difficulties of the southern rivers were very frequently argued as a reason 
why we should not enter upon that portion. 

1793 Mr. C. Bruce.] What is the nature of the difficulty in the southern 
portion? —I think there are as many as 18 rivers between Surat and Bombay, one 
of them being very wide, about one and a quarter miles across, it is called 
the Bassein Strait; but the difficulty in dealing with it is not great, that depends 
more upon the velocity of the water coming down than upon the width of the 
river; the velocity of the Nerbudda and the Taptee is very great, their waters 
flow over 300 or 400 miles of distance, but the sources of the southern rivers are 
not more than 40 miles distant from the crossing of our line. 

1794. Mr. Crawford .] How do you approach Bombay; is it by an inde¬ 
pendent line, or do you approach Bombay by a junction with the Great 
Indian Peninsula line?—That brings us to a very nice point indeed, and I 
ought to have brought that forward in speaking of the delay, because, although 
our southern junction at Bombay was sanctioned on the 20th November, we do 
not know how we are to get into Bombay, and we find that our difficulty is in 
approaching Bombay. There is no question that we ought to go by the direct 
level line across the Strait of Bassein, and enter Bombay to a separate terminus 
of our own. 

1795. By the Strait of Bassein and by Ghorabunder?—Yes. 

1796. The passage from Bassein to Ghorabunder is across an arm of the sea, is 
it not ?—Yes. 

1797. Not across a river ?—No; I suppose it is 10 times the width of the 
river that enters into the strait. 

1798. Would there not be an interruption to the navigation between the sea 
and Tanna ?—I do not conceive that the navigation is of any great importance 
there; and there are two ways in which it may he preserved, either by raising the 
line of railway at the bridge, or by making it on the level, and having a draw¬ 
bridge. 

1 799 ; Mr. C. Bruce.] Can you state the depth of water under the arm of the 
sea?—The greatest depth, 1 think, is 16 feet; but that is for a small portion, 
and it shelves off to nothing. 

1800. Mr. Crawford.] You approach Bombay by the western side of the island 
of Salsette ?—Yes. 

1801. Then you cross another arm of the sea ?—At Mahim ; but the whole of 
that question, as regards the crossing of the two waters, only affects the expendi¬ 
ture ; the expenditure of crossing these two waters is included in our estimated 
rate of about 6,000 l. per mile. 


1802. Chairman.] 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDTA (RAILWAYS). 


17 


1802. Chairman .] Did not the Government at onetime propose a diversion 
of the direct line, and recommend you to join the Great Indian Peninsula line, 
and so reach Bombay ?—Yes ; our first instruction on going to make the sur¬ 
vey was, that we should start from Callian; that is a point about 32 miles up 
the Great Indian Peninsula line. We did commence there; we made our surveys 
up to Surat, starting from that point; and, when I got the survey, I saw it was 
very difficult in the first part of it, in comparison with the ground by the western 
coast. I immediately ordered the engineers to complete a plan and section of 
that portion; I recommended that the alternative line by the western coast of 
Salsette should be adopted, and the Governor in Council expressed himself 
favourably upon that point. 

1803. Favourable to your views ?—Yes. By joining the great Indian Peninsula 
line, we should be thrown into rough country for about 20 miles, and should be 
obliged to travel over a line with different gradients to our own. It would reduce 
the loads of our trains, would give 11s a circuit of 16 miles, which must add to 
the annual working cost of our line ad infinitum , and would crowd the extensive 
operations of two companies into a limited station barely sufficient for one. 

1804. Is it not the case that mechanical difficulties presented themselves, and that 
the buffers of the various engines were not equal ?—When I came to the point of 
arranging for the rolling stock of our line, I got the Government to appoint a 
committee of the different consulting engineers, attended by Mr. Stephenson, Mr. 
liendel, Mr. Garrow and myself, and that point was settled at once. There is but 
one gauge in India, and arrangements have been made by the consulting engineers 
in this country to see that the rolling stock on every line shall be able to work 
together on each. 

1805. Mr. Crawford .] The line from Bombay to Surat may be considered, in 
a commercial point of view, as a most important one ?—Most important. 

1806. A very great proportion of the cotton which is supplied from Bombay 
comes, I believe, from Guzerat to Bombay ? —Yes, Guzerat is a very large cotton 
producing dictrict. 

1807. I believe it is brought down now by boats ?—By native boats. 

1808. Do you recollect the cost of carriage by the native boats?—The freights 
vary from what would be equivalent to one-halfpenny per ton per mile at the 
lowest season, to a little over three-halfpence per ton per mile in the highest 
seasons; and my conviction was, that we should be able to carry quite as cheap 
as it costs at present by the boats. 

1809. Mr. C. Bruce.] What are the advantages you expect to derive as regards 
the carriage, if the expenses are about the same?—We expect to get the whole of 
the cotton to carry. 

1810. I mean with regard to the trade of the district?—It will result in 
enormous advantages. The navigation is shut up for three or four months of the 


,811. Is not the cotton liable to be injured by exposure to the weather?— 
The cotton is liable to be injured very much throughout, but I think it is much 
more injured as it is carried on bullock backs. That involves the broad question 
of the importance of railways generally. 

1812. Mr. Crawford.] Have you been in Guzerat .'—I have. 

1813. Then you know the country over which the cotton is carried ?-I have 
not travelled much to the southward or the westward of Guzerat. 

1814 Was it not generally understood that one cause of the .delay in the 
settlement of the line that your railway was to take, was the large question as to 
the mode by which the interior of India in the direction of Malwa was to be 
approached ?-No; I think that was a question that has arisen since. The 
question of our communication from Baroda to Central India by Indore, was 
exceedingly pressed by the Governor-General’s agent, Sir Robert Hamilton. 

1815. Was there anything in the nature of a competing interest between your 
line and the Great Indian Peninsula line?—I understand there is now; that the 
Great Indian Peninsula Company are seeking to approach Indore from another 


^°i8i6. You are probably aware that the Great Indian Peninsula line is sanc¬ 
tioned in a continuous route from Bombay to Jubbulpoor ?—Yes. 

181- What was the nature of the competing interests between yourselves and 
the Great Indian Peninsula ?-I do not see any competition, because I think both 
these lines will be required. I think it absurd to suppose that the Great Indian 

G p o remnsula 

1. 1 


Colonel 

J. P. Kennedy. 


17 May 1858. 



118 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel Peninsula going close to the Nerbudda River in its direction to Jubbulpore, should 
J. P. Kennedy. not ]ik ew j se communicate with Central India. 

“ ~ 1818. Do you propose to join the Great Indian Peninsula Line on the Taptee 

'7 a y 1 5 • or Nerbudda ?—Most assuredly; I cannot give up the great importance of the 

line we wanted, that going from Surat to join the Great Indian Peninsula direct 
from Candeish ; but the question of competition is an absurd question. There is 
plenty of room for us all, and there can be no doubt that both of the lines from 
Bombay to Central India, and the junction that the Great Indian Peninsula Com¬ 
pany contemplate from their line where it joins nearest to Indore, will be made 
before long. 

1819. Is there not a competition in the sense of twp different companies at¬ 
tempting to obtain a preference in point of time for the construction of the line ? 
—I do not consider it would in the least impair our claims to go to Indore from 
the westward, supposing there were a junction between Indore and the Great 
Indian Peninsula Line ; I do not look upon that as any competition. 

1820. Mr. Cheetham.~\ You stated that in your opinion the most important 
object in the construction of railways in India was the development of its in¬ 
dustrial resources ?—Yes. 

1821. Does your line go through a rich agricultural country ?—Yes, a very fine 
country. Guzerat is one of the finest in India, and cotton is an important produce 
there, and in Central India there is a great deal of opium and indigo. 

1822. I believe the cotton is carried from Guzerat by boat?—Almost entirely. 

1823. Do you expect that that will go by your line?—With the extensions. 
We must have a branch line to the centre of Guzerat. 

1824. At present your line would not answer for that?—At present those who 
are not at a great distance from us would send their cotton by our line rather 
than by sea. 

1825. Could you convey it at a less cost?—I think we could carry it quite as 
low as the present rate, and lower at times. 

1826. What is the present cost of carriage by boat?—From one-halfpenny to 
over three-halfpence per ton per mile, according to the season. 

1827. What is your contemplated rate of charge?—I think we shall be able to 
carry, ultimately, at the rate of one-farthing per ton per mile. 

1828. Have you any roads communicating with your line?—There are no 
roads; the whole country is considered a road in the dry season, and a sea in the 
wet season. That remark applies to almost every part of India. 

] 829. Would you be enabled, without roads communicating with your stations, 
to obtain produce for conveyance?-—They carry produce to an enormous distance 
at present; the cotton comes down 300 or 400 miles on bullocks’ backs. The 
mode in which produce was carried across the Himalayan mountains was still 
more defective, on the backs of goats and sheep that scramble up ladders quite 
impassable for horses and bullocks. 

1830. Mr. Crawford. J In Guzerat there is no material, is there, for road¬ 
making?—There is a great deal of what is called kunkur, which is a sort of 
limestone. 

1831. Do you find that in the neighbourhood of Baroda?—It is in a great 
many places. 

1832. If it were desired to make a highway across Guzerat, in the direction of 
your railway, would it not be difficult for want of materials to make one?— 
In a great many places I think you would be obliged to burn clay for it. 

1833. To make artificial stone?—Yes. 

1834. Mr. Cheetham.'] Can you give me the distance from Guzerat to Bombay 
by water ?—Gogo is the main port; it would be about 220 miles from Bombay. 

1835. What would be the distance of your line when you have taken it 
into the cotton districts by Baroda?—Ours is 180 miles to Surat, and it is 80 
miles from there to Baroda; it would probably be 300 miles. 

1836. Do you still think that, notwithstanding that extra distance, you would be 
able to convey produce to Bombay at about the same cost as the present water 
conveyance ?—I think so; we should get the benefit of the traffic. 

1837. Ey the regularity ?—Yes, and by the advantage we can offer of carrying 
it throughout the year; as well as by the absolute comparative cost of freight. 

1838. You are probably aware of the great difficulty there is in getting it down 

to 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). n 9 

to the sea-port r It must go to Gogo if it goes by sea, and we are as favourably 
circumstanced as Gogo. 

1839. ls there not a difficulty in that port in shipping it ?—There is no pier, 
but it would be easy to make one. 

1840. Mr. Campbell.'] I understand you to say that the completion of the rail¬ 
way system as indicated by you would he an annual saving to the East India 
Company of 7,000,000 l. per annum ?—Upon the military expenditure. 

1841. Then, so long as that construction is deferred, the East India Company 
are, in your opinion, losers to that extent?—I think so ; but that depends upon 
whether my calculation as to the increase in the military expenditure is to take 
place. I think the country cannot be held without it. 

1842. In addition to that economy, do you consider that the health and efficiency 
of the European force would be promoted by the existence of the railways?— 
There is no doubt that we lose more soldiers in India by the marches than by any 
conflicts in the field, and that that rate of mortality would be materially reduced 
by a sufficient network of railways. 

1843. And with the power of concentration to dispense materially with a force 
that it would otherwise be necessary to preserve?—Yes. 

1844. 1 suppose uffien the railways are completed the State would be able to 
dispense to a great extent with camp equipage, batta, tentage, elephants, camels, 
and other allowances in India to the army?—I cannot say that; I should be sorry 
to hazard a hasty opinion upon that, but all the long transport now carried/on by 
beasts of burden would go by rail to the nearest points for assembling the troops, 
so that there would be a diminished military transport. 

1845. You think that by the establishment of railways the vast camp equipage 
might, to a great extent, be dispensed with ?—No doubt a large class of it could 
be, but there must still be the means of transport for an army in the field after 
it is brought up by railway to the point of assembling. 

1846. I believe that population and production chiefly exist on the banks of 
navigable streams, and in no other parts?—It must exist with very great difficulty 
in proportion as you go from the navigable streams. 

1 847. Do you imagine that every fresh railway established will be equal to a 
navigable stream ?—It will be much better than any navigable stream. The 
most perfect water communication that existed in the world, existed in England 
before railways were established, and yet England brought forth as an infant 
the railway system, and has matured it notwithstanding all the competition of 
her inland navigation. 

1848. Were you on the frontier of India during the Punjaub invasion?—I 
was not. 

1849. You do not know the cost of food for the army upon that occasion as 
compared with the cost in Calcutta?—I do not. 

1850. Is it your opinion that the consumption of produce, now comparatively 
valueless to the producer, would, by railway facilities, become valuable to the 
grower, and thus encourage a consumption of European manufactures not now 
existing?—There is not the least doubt that it would; and one of the most striking 
things In India is the short distance you have to go to find an enormous difference 
in the price of the most common articles of consumption. 

1851. Do you imagine that the zemindars, tallookdars and other landowners, 
could be made responsible for the preservation of such portions of the line as 
passed through their property 1 —I am afraid you could not calculate 011 that; 
but the expense of a railway police in India would be much less than in England. 

1852. Sir J. Elphinstone .] I understood you to say that you had not settled 
upon your route into Bombay?—No. 

1853. there any reason of a strategical nature which should induce the Go¬ 
vernment to require that all the lines should converge into one at Bombay ? Not 
that I am aware of. 

1854. You consider that the line along the coast of Gorahbunder and Bassein 
is the preferable line into the island of Bombay ?—It is the only rational one. 
We must otherwise travel on two sides of a triangle instead of one. 

1855. What is the worst gradient on your line from Bombay to Surat?—Our 

rU o‘l 1 f adient iS 1 in 5 °°‘ p 4 1856. And 


Colonel 

J. P. Kennedy. 


17 May 1858. 



120 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Colonel 1856. And the whole of it passes along alluvial country 1 It passes through 

J.P. Kennedy, different descriptions of country. . 

1857. What gradient do you get into when you turn towards Calhan ? Ihat 
17 May 1858. p Qrt j )as nQt k een surveyed 

1858. It makes a difference of 16 miles ?—It does. 

1859. And brings you upon gradients of a much more severe character than 

those of the main line?—Yes. . 

1860. North of Surat, I believe, the gradients are much the same ?—One in 
500 is our maximum gradient. 

1861. What is the ruling gradient on the Bombay portion after you form the 
junction?—I recollect that the approach to the Tana Bridge is 1 in 100, but I 
do not recollect what the others are. 

1862. On the Bombay line, is there a provision made so as to allow the navi¬ 
gation to pass through the upper part of the Bombay Harbour ?—Yes. 

1863. That could be done equally with respect to the Bassein branch ? It 
could, but I trust that a different principle will be adopted, and that is, to make 
a level opening ; that would avoid the description of rise that occurs at the Tana 
Bridge. 

1864. How do you propose that the traffic from Bassein should pass under your 
railway ?—It will pass through by an opening in the bridge, probably on the 
telescope principle, as applied in the railway viaduct in Moorcomb Bay. 

1865. Mr. H. A. Bruce.] You said, in the early part of your evidence, that 
between April 1855 and November 1857, you were much engaged in inducing the 
Horne Government to withdraw their objection to the completion of the line from 
Bombay to Surat ?—To grant us that as an additional portion of our line. 

1866. What were the reasons assigned by Mr. Danby Seymour for the refusal 
of the Home Government to authorise that line ?—The strongest reason he seemed 
to dwell upon was the existence of the boat traffic on the coast. 

1867. From Surat to Bombay?—Yes. 

1868. In fact, then, his objection was that the line was not wanted ?—Yes. 

1869. Subsequently, when your company was authorised to make the line from 
Surat to Bombay, an attempt was made, and I believe is still made, to interfere 
with your own plans, and to force you to join the Great Indian Peninsula?—I can 
scarcely say that it is to that extent. After the general principle has been adopted 
in England, and the Indian Government in England has sanctioned a general line, 
all the details are left for the decision of the Local Government. That is what I 
understand to be the practice at present pursued, unless some extraordinary diffi¬ 
culty arises to call for discussion. 

1870. Is it to the Local Government or to the Home Government that you 
attribute this persistence in an endeavour to force you to join the line at Callian ? 
—I can scarcely say it was an endeavour to force us; it is a question that seems 
under discussion, and we are anxious not to bring it to a crisis for decision until 
we have had time to convince the Local Government that we are proposing the 
right course ; and therefore we prefer carrying all our materials up to Surat, and 
working down from there, which is an expensive operation, rather than hasten the 
decision as to the question of how we are to get into Bombav. 

1871. You consider, in fact, that the delay arises from the refusal of the 

Government to sanction that line which you say is the right and proper one ?_ 

Our plans are not all gone in yet; and therefore" we do no*t know that that objec¬ 
tion, which we know to be pending, will be enforced against us; and 1 am in great 
hopes that when our complete plans have gone in, the Government will thoroughly 
understand that there is but one proper approach to Bombay for us. By the last 
mails from India we only know of 10 miles of our plans from Surat to the south¬ 
ward being before the Government. They were immediately approved of, and 
therefore 1 do not mean to say that the Government are determined to force us, 
but we apprehend it; and, for that reason, we would rather incur delay and in¬ 
convenience, if it gives us time to mature our case. 

1872. Chairman.] Will you describe shortly the condition of your line at the 
present moment?—1 have prepared a paper, which, if you will allow me I will 
hand in as my answer to that question :— 


Bombay, 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


121 


Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway Company. Coionel 

--- J. P. Kennedy. 

PROGRESS REPORT of Works on the First Concession (143 miles) of Line from Surat to - 

Ahmedabad, framed to ascertain how far the rate of Expenditure is in accordance with the *7 May 1858. 
original Estimate both as regards Money and Time.—May 1858 . 


Original Estimate of Mileage, Cost, and Time for Completion of First Concession. 


MILES. 

From 

To 

Date of giving 

Possession 

of Land 

to Company. 

Date 

for Completion. 

Average Cost 
per Mile, 
including 

Rolling Stock 
for one Train 
each way Daily. 

36-86 

Surat - 

Baroach 

1 May 1856 - 

1 May 1858 - 

8,623 

43-53 

Baroach 

Baroda - 

7 Nov. 1856 - 

7 Nov. 1858 - 

4,792 

14 32 

Baroda - 

Wassind 

3 Feb. 1857 - 

3 Feb. 1859 - 

8,769 

48-05 

Wassind 

Ahmedabad - 

27 June 1857 - 

27 June 1859 - 

5,106 

Total - 142‘75 

Surat - 

Ahmedabad - 

- 

27 June 1859 - 

6,144 


Amount of Works 
done 

and Contracted for. 


Work to be Done. 


Average 

Cost 


DESCRIPTION. 


Approxi¬ 
mate 
fractional 
Proportion, 
taking 
the whole 
calculated 
Expendi¬ 
ture 
as One. 


Cost 

in 

Pounds. 


Approxi¬ 
mate 
fractional 
Proportion, 
taking 
the whole 
calculated 
Expendi¬ 
ture 
as One. 


Cost 

in 

Pounds. 


per Mile 
of 

Calculated 

Expendi¬ 

ture. 


English Expenditure. 

Including all permanent way 
materials, iron bridges, 
rolling stock, shop tools, 
preliminary disbursements, 
home engineering, ma¬ 
nagement, and freight of 
materials for 143 miles, 
from Surat to Ahmeda¬ 
bad. 


•441779 


£. 


378,178 


•260328 


£. 


222,842 


£. 


4,203 


Indian Expenditure. 

Including earthworks, ma¬ 
sonry, erection of iron 
bridges, ballasting, sta¬ 
tions and workshops, 
surveying, engineering, 
general management, and 
all contingent expenses on 
143 miles, Surat to Ah¬ 
medabad - 


•119107 


•5G0886 


101,968 


480,146 


•178735 


•439063 


Add for work done 

Total - - £. 


152,999 


375,841 

480,146 

855,987 


1,782 


5,985 


REMARKS. 


Dividends advanced ■< 

1 £. 

by Honourable 
Court to Dec.1857 
to be refunded I 
from revenue - J 

1 40,630 

Interest on same to' 

}- 2,592 

June 1858 - -j 

Liabilities to he re -. 


paid from reve-' 

[ 43,222 

nue - - -J 



Balances of this company in 
the treasury of the Honour¬ 
able Court at the respective 


dates:— 

£. 

31 Dec. 1855 

- 205,625 

31 Aug. 1856 

- 272,104 

31 March 1857 

- 294,082 

31 Oct. 1857 

- 168,005 

28 Feb. 1858 

- 279,006 


With regard to the supplies of iron materials going from England, over one half of the total amount required has 
already been dispatched, and the remainder will proceed progressively, so as to allow the last parcels to reach India 
within eight months from the present time. The whole of the earthworks for the 143 miles were completed; 
14 miles of permanent way were laid. The pile piers of the only large bridge between the Taptee and Nerbudda 
Rivers were erected, and the whole of the culverts and minor brick bridges in that division were on the eve of com¬ 
pletion in February last. The report therefore of the completion of the first 36 miles, with the exception of the two 
great bridges over the Taptee and Nerbudda Rivers may be looked for by the earliest mails. The greater portion of the 
materials for the Nerbudda Bridge have left England; and the contracts for the Taptee Bridge are in progress. The 
second division of 43 miles (Baroach to Baroda) was in nearly an equal state of advancement, and the two remaining 
divisions completing the first concession to Ahmedabad have but one bridge of any importance to occupy us. There is there¬ 
fore every certainty that the line over the whole length will be completed within the calculated dates of two years from the 
time of our obtaining possession of the respective portions of the land. This is the most trying test of the principle that 
could have been given, because, as being the first portion of our line, it involved much cautious consideration and delay 
in fixing all those principles which shall apply to every portion of the line that is to follow, whether in reference to the 
different classes of rolling stock, machinery, permanent way, viaducts, bridges, &c., &c. The future extensions will 
require but counterparts of what has now been established, at least until further indisputable improvements in railway 
appliances shall prove that alterations in what we have adopted are desirable. 

0.G1. Q 















































22 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel 1° handing in this progress report, I heg to say I consider the principle of accurate 

J. P. Kennedy, progress reports the most important principle that can he adopted in reference to 

- the ongoing of railways. I think that our projects ought to he minutely de- 

17 May 1858 . fined and closely estimated, and that the progress reports should appear monthly, 

and should be audited by professional auditors monthly. That I look upon as 
the real safeguard of the Government which grants the guarantee, and the share¬ 
holders who are interested in the result derived from their funds. I think all 
other efforts at protection for a company, or for the expenditure of trie public 
money, a perfect fallacy. 

1873. Mr. Crawford.] Working down from Surat, how soon do you come to 
the point where you would turn off in one direction or the other?—It is within 
30 miles of the lower extremity of our line, the whole extent of it being 1 80 
miles. 

1874. Chairman.'] What is your opinion in regard to Government supervision 
over railway works ; do you, or do you not, approve of that supervision ?—I 
think that good and vigilant Government supervision is an important principle on 
any railway works. I do not wish to see it removed, but I wish to see the little 
impedimental harassings on the railway system in India done away with, and to 
see a wholesome check introduced instead of it. 

1875. What improvement would you suggest in the department charged with 
the supervision of railway construction in India?—We have at each of our 
Boards an ex-officio director representing the Government. 

1876. You are now referring to the supervision in England ?—Yes ; and con¬ 
sidering the character of the gentleman who represents the Government on our 
Boards, his great capability, high qualifications and long standing, I think the 
whole of the decisions of the Government ought to be vested in his hands ; I do 
not see that the Government gain anything whatever by going beyond Sir James 
Melvill’s decisions, and sending papers round Leadenhall-street and Cannon-row 7 . 
I should be glad to see the whole decision rest in Sir James Melvill, and that 
his decision should be final except on important matters, where you have to treat 
of the extension of a railway or the granting of a guarantee. 

1877. What are the impulses and securities you would establish, in order to 
ensure the rate of progress which you have described as in your opinion attain¬ 
able ?—The first thing I have referred to; and that is, that the Government 
supervision should be modified as I have said. Next, I should be desirous that 
our officers who are engaged in the construction of works in India, should have 
what I call a bonus held out to them for good, efficient, and quick work. You 
will recollect that there are two different principles vve are proceeding upon in 
the construction of works in India ; one is through the instrumentality of large 
contractois, and the other is that of a company executing their works through 
their own officers. I am quite clear that the latter plan is by far the best for us. 
We have at present 28 officers in India; and with the experience they have had 
in constructing our works, they are quite as valuable now as any contractors* 
agent would be. You can only make a contract from piece to piece, and can 
get no contractor who could establish such an organization as a company can 
establish for the due and economical execution of the works. If you make 
a fresh contract in England the contractor goes out, and is obliged in a short 
time to pick up the general knowledge by which to carry on his operations. 
We have a large undertaking on hand ; and having once trained our officers, 
we have them in an efficient state upon the footing of what I call a con¬ 
tractor’s agency, perfectly able to execute any part of our works ; and therefore 
what is called in India the departmental system, in opposition to the contract 
system, is the best to go upon. That gives a great deal of additional labour to 
the office!s employed, and considering the additional exposure to climate which 
it entails, they ought to have considerable inducements held out to them. I re¬ 
commended at my own Board, only a shoit time ago, that the system of bonuses 
should be established to such an amount, in each instance, as the Board might 
think each officer deserving of, not exceeding the amount of his regular salaryin 
addition thereto, and not giving him an absolute claim. 

1878. Would you fix the amountof that bonus you have described in the shape 
of per-centage upon the capital expended ?—No, I would require the chief en¬ 
gineer out there to send home a report quarterly, showing the amount of work that 
each of the officers had done during the quarter, and placing them on his list in 
precedence according to merit; making such report along with that as he 

thinks 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 123 

thinks fit, so as to give such information to the Board of Directors as would Colonel 
enable them to reward those officers w ho have served them zealously. K enned y- 

1879. 1 ° proportion to the work they had executed ?—That would guide the “ ~ 

directors of course, but within certain limits. We have lost several officers by 17 May l858, 

death, several have been obliged to come home in consequence of ill health, and 

several have resigned, for our rate of pay is not a high one; indeed, it is lower 
than the other railways. 

1880. Mr. C. Bruce.’] What is your rate of pay ?— One chief engineer receives 
1,200 /. a year only ; the next class to that, the resident engineer, receives 700 l. 
a year ; the next 600 l .; and the next 500/. a year. 

1881. Chairman.] Why is the rate of pay on your line lower than on others? 

— It was established with a view to make it up by these very bonuses to which I 
have referred. This is a preferable system to that of paying high uniform rates 
of salary, whether officers deserve it or not. A zealous officer can scarcely be 
over-paid ; an indifferent one, even without any salary, must be a wasteful incum¬ 
brance to his employer. 

1882. Was that the understanding under which your officers undertook their 
duties r—No, they undertook their offices at their distinct rates of salary, and there¬ 
fore they had no positive claim upon us for more; but it was the feeling on the 
part of the directors, from the first day I joined them, that we should establish 
that principle as soon as we could. I have not had an opportunity of bringing the 
principle forward earlier than at present, because it was necessary that the works 
should be carried to a certain extent before we could establish such a principle. 

1883. Mr. A. H. Baring.] Do you think that the arrangement you have sug¬ 
gested would prevent their resigning, and therefore it would obviate the delay in 
the execution of the works ?—Yes. 

1884. Chairman.] Is the mode adopted with reference to the selection of 
railways, in your opinion, on a proper footing ?—What I have already stated to 
some extent answers that question. If the subject had been philosophically gone 
into by Government, we should have had the whole of our line granted in the 
direction that our engineers could have shown was the best, without any inter¬ 
ference whatever. 

1885. Mr. C. Bruce.] You have stated that you consider the departmental 
system better than the contract system ?—Yes. 

1 886. What is your opinion as to the propriety of the Government itself under¬ 
taking these works?—If I were the Governor-Genera), I would make every rail¬ 
way in India ; if properly done, and if proper arrangements W'ere made, it would 
be a most important and valuable source of revenue. There is no reason why 
the Government should not avail itself of that as well as the members of a com¬ 
pany, but it is very easy indeed to run upon a shoal, as generally speaking 
Government works are not very cheaply executed. 

1887. Do you think that the Government has at this moment in its engineering 
service the means of carrying out these railways?—Certainly not in their engineer¬ 
ing service, because they have a numerical deficiency of engineer officers, and 
have been obliged to employ civilians to assist them in the other public works 
of the country ; but they have the same faciliteis as a company has for obtaining 
additional engineers’ assistance. 

1888. Do you not think that the system of bonus you recommend might 
be perhaps more generally carried out by Government than by a company? 

—All that depends upon the arrangements made. If there is an able man at the 
head of the Government system, he will take care that everything is harmonious, 
and as it should be. 

1889. Is such a work as the Ganges Canal, in your opinion, of the same class 
of importance and difficulty as one of these railways would be?—I think a broad 
extension of irrigation canals in India is second only in importance to that of the 
ways of communication. The one system augments your produce ; the other 
enables you to distribute it, without which power the produce would be of little 
or no value. 

1890. That great work was executed by the Government, was it not?—It 
was. 

1891. Did Sir Probert Courtney himself create the machinery necessary for 
carrying it out?—Yes; it is a very grand work, and highly creditable to the 
Government of India. 

1892. Would not the railways have been established more economically and 

0.61. Q 2 more 



124 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel 

J. P. Kennedy. 


17 May 1858. 


more rapidly if the Government itself had undertaken them ?—I doubt that very 
much and I will give you our own case as an example. If we had been left free 
to act as we liked, our 350 miles would have been opened before now ; the impe¬ 
diments came from the Government. 

3893. Do you consider that these impediments would have arisen if the Govern¬ 
ment itself had executed the work?—They would have had the power, and might 
have/had the inclination to act more vigorously through the agency of their own 
officers. If the Government have a proper organisation, they can act as rapidly 
as the most rapid operations are carried on by a company. 

1894. Mr. Ci'awford.'] Did you not state that in your opinion it would have 
been desirable that the Government should have undertaken these works ?—Yes, 
I think if they have the means and the determination to carry them on rapidly, it 
would be a better principle. They would then take all the benefits that the 
shareholders get now. 

1895. Upon the broad principle, do you think it desirable that the Government 
of a State should undertake the construction of the railways of the State ?—I 
believe that they could do it quite as well if they had the same impulse upon them 
as companies have. There is one advantage you have in employing a com pan}', 
that you get the best amount of criticism and independent talent, which is not 
afraid to speak out its mind. Under the other state of things you lose all that, 
because there is very little criticism on the part of people employed under the 
Government. 

1896. Do you think that the conditions would have made it profitable in this 
case ?—I am afraid not. 

1897. Then, in point of fact, it would have been desirable that the Govern¬ 
ment should have undertaken the construction of the railways themselves ?—So 
far as the experience we have goes, I think not, but what I meant to say was that 
there was no reason why a government establishing a proper system should not 
carry on works as rapidly as a separate company. 

1898. Do you not think that very great advantage is to be gained in what may 
be termed the mercantile and general experience brought to bear upon the con¬ 
struction of railway undertakings in India, which the Government could not 
have possessed through the mere departments ?—They could not have carried 
them on by the departments; they must have employed the same class of agency 
as the companies employed. They must have come to England for men who had 
been in the habit of doing the work here. In the first place, they have not the 
proper number of engineers, and they are obliged to augment their number by 
civil engineers from England to do their ordinary public work. 

1899. 1 ° ^ ie case of the East Indian Railway Company, it has been stated 
that they have sent out to India in four years, 240,000 tons of dead weight alone, 
and that they have sent that forward at an average cost of 24 s. per ton only. 
If you were informed that the ordinary rate of freight that the East India Com¬ 
pany pays for the transmission of their dead weight, has been in excess of that 
24 s., may it not be inferred that the comparatively cheap terms upon which the 
Railway Company have sent out their goods, have been owing to the mercantile 
experience and acquaintance with the course of trade possessed by the Board of 
the railway company, and not possessed by a department of the East India House ? 
—That all depends on what I said before; the man you have to look after it; 
if you found as capable a man to manage for the East India Company at the 
India House, as you have under a Railway Company, there is no doubt he would 
do the work as well for the Government as your man does for you ; it is perfectly 
open to the Government to get the same class of men as the Company can get. 

I can see no real difficulty in their establishing a good system. 

1900. You presume that the Government would have the same command over 
a supply of funds as the railway company ?—The fact is, that our power of getting 
funds depends on the security the Government chose to give for our funds, and 
therefore if the Government ask for money at the guaranteed rate of interest, 
no doubt they would get the money. 

1901. Are you aware of the proportions which the capitals of the railway com¬ 
panies in this country and in India respectively bear to each other ?—I am afraid 
to say how small a sum we have in our own company for India; but I look upon 
it that most of the money for railways in England and other countries comes 
from the Stock Exchange in London. 


1902. That 



125 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS) 

1902. That being the case, the capital necessary for the construction of those 
railways must have been provided in this country ?—I think so. 

1903. Are you not aware that the East India Company have no power of 
borrowing beyond a limited amount in this country, and that on a recent occasion 
very great jealousy was shown in Parliament in giving the East India Company 
powers under the sanction of the Legislature for borrowing ?—If it were brought 
before Parliament as a question, whether there should be railways in India or 
not, and that that depended upon an Act of Parliament being passed giving the 
company parliamentary powers, 1 think that those powers would be withheld but 
for a very short time. 

1904. Mr. Cheetham.] Do you agree in this opinion of Mr. Sullivan, which 
he stated before a Committee of the House of Commons in 1848: “ I suppose 
there is no country in the world which offers such peculiar facilities from its 
physical conditions altogether as India for making railways ” ?—I perfectly agree 
with that. 

1905. And again, when he says, “ I consider that the Government of India has 
an intense financial interest in making railways ”?■—Yes, distinctly ; and beyond 
that, I think there is a more important duty cast upon the Government of India 
than upon the government of any other country in the world, because the 
Government of India is the landed proprietor as well as the Government. 

1906. Mr. H. A. Bruce.] Are you of opinion that private capital may be 
contributed, with or without guarantee, in sufficient amount to complete that 
system of railways you think necessary for the proper development of trade, and 
for the political security of India?—When I look back at the capital subscribed 
to effect the railways in England, the capital, if you can only show that it is 
pretty well secured, will never in my opinion be wanting to provide 72 millions 
for India, or such larger amount as may be required. 

1907. Levying it in England?—Yes. 

1908. Is there not this important difference, iliat the capitalists in England 
have under their eyes the means of judging of the advantage afforded by their 
proposed line, whereas their means of judging of such advantages in India are 
very limited ?—I think that the effects that are now being produced on the different 
lines that are being opened w ill give to the English capitalists the means of knowing 
what is going on. If the lines are economically and rapidly made, and if they pro¬ 
duce good dividends, there will be no difficulty in obtaining the money necessary 
to go on with them. 

1909. You think that if each of the existing companies were to apply for such 
extensions as you think necessary for railway development in India, they could 
find in England the capital necessary for making those lines?—I have not the 
least doubt of it. 

1910. Chairman.] I understand you do not consider the Government guarantee 
of the dividend indispensable in every case for obtaining the capital ?—I think it 
quite indispensable in the first instance to give confidence to capitalists, but after 
that, if successful results are shown, I think we shall get our money without the 
guarantee. 

1911. What course would you recommend to establish that confidence in 
capitalists?—I have already explained that the principle I would recommend is, 
that the original project should be accurately defined and estimated; by that I do 
not mean wide estimates, but estimates at which the work can be accomplished, 
and that after that the progress reports from month to month should be placed 
before the shareholders, to show how far the progressive execution is in accord¬ 
ance with previous anticipations and estimates ; I think in that principle only is 
to be found security, both for the Government and the shareholders. 

1912. What do you consider the best form of Indian agency for conducting the 
execution of these works in a subordinate position ; by that I mean the directing 
Board in India ?—I think a single responsible agent is much preferable to the 
other system of the directing Board in India. 

1913. You consider the existence of the directing Board in India to be in itself 
productive of delay, and some degree of circumlocution r—I think that a directing 
Board anywhere for carrying on an executive woik is the very worst invention 
that can by possibility be applied. If you want your work executed properly, 
you will have a proper responsible officer in charge; a small Board over him to 
see that everything is properly done by him might be a useful precaution, rather 

0.61. " Q3 than 


Colonel 
J. P. Kennedy. 


17 May 1858. 



120 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel than as intended to take any share in the work. I think that, a responsible man 
J. P. Kennedy, is often exceedingly hampered by men not capable of forming an opinion upon 
the work he is conducting, but who insist upon interfering with it. The engineers 
17 May 1858. should have nothing to do with the payments, either for labour or materials. 
These ought to be entirely made through a special pay department. 

1914. To test the accuracy of that opinion, have you made any calculation of 
the proportion of the gross expenditure incurred respectively in India and in 
England?—I think the paper I have just handed in shows that the expenditure in 
England is a little more than two-thirds of the whole, and somewhat less than 
one-third in India. 

1915. That expenditure, I suppose, includes the purchases of all articles neces¬ 
sary for the construction of the work ?—Yes ; chiefly iron, and, I am sorry to say, 
timber; we have had to send out timber sleepers to lay down our road. 

1916. Mr. C. Bruce. j Is there not a great difficulty in India in getting the 
wood required ?—There is very great difficulty in getting it, and that is a very 
strange thing, because the finest timbers to be had in the world are of Indian 
growth. I had with me the day before yesterday a gentleman of the name of 
Ommaney, who had been long resident in Australia, and he brought me a sample 
of Australian wood, which he says is impervious to the attacks of the ants, and 
of the greatest possible durability. Jarrah is the name of the wood. 

1917. With regard to the expense of taking wood from Australia to India, 
would it be less than taking it from England ?—That is a question that I would 
rather you put to Mr. Ommaney. 

1918. Are you in the habit of kyanising your sleepers ?—No, we creosote them. 

1919. Have you applied any process of that kind to the sleepers you use in 
India?—No, I believe not. 

1920. Is there any reason why you should not do so?—No, but I trust we 
shall avoid the question of wood sleepers altogether. I am anxious to see iron 
introduced instead of wood 

1921. Has it not been found that near London, where the rails have been laid 
down upon stone, it has created a great deal of shaking ?—-That is quite different 
from the principle of the proper support by iron sleepers. 

1922. Are you aware of any railway where that has ever been tried w ith iron 
supports ?—Yes, there have been several, of different degrees of merit. There is 
a principle I think highly of, lately brought forward by Mr. Bridges Adams, which 
has been tried at the Great Northern Station, I think, very successfully ; it is now 
being tried on a more extensive scale on the London and North Western Rail¬ 
way, where several miles are being laid down. We shall soon have the benefit 
of their experience. 

1923. Would that be cheaper in India than the present system?—It would 
be much cheaper. Timber sleepers going out from this country will require 
freight for about 160 tons’ measurement per mile. 

1924. Mr. Stephenson.'] Just now you suggested a system, by which the Indian 
railways might be carried on more advantageously than they are now. Do I 
understand you to propose a monthly return as a substitute for the present system 
of supervision ?—For the present system of checks, and all that correspondence 
which only adds impediments and delay. I think that each month the audited 
progress report would give a much more correct idea, and 1 am sure that there is 
no principle of economy in the present routine. 

1925. My question rather had reference to the superintendence of the civil 
engineer by the Government engineer in the execution of the works?—I think it 
is exceedingly mischievous that there should be any interference whatever. 1 am 
very anxious that the Government engineer should come and criticise our works; 
but I think that the minute torment that takes place at present is very mis¬ 
chievous, and so mischievous, that we were nearly losing a most valuable chief 
engineer from the extent to which it is carried. 

1926. Do you know% that in Australia they are seriously contemplating the 
abandonment of the wooden sleepers, in consequence of the depredations of the 
ants, and using iron sleepers ?—-I have not heard of that; if the wood is attack¬ 
able by ants, they are quite right to abandon the use of it. The Jarrah timber 
mentioned by Mr. Ommaney he stated to be a produce peculiar to Western 
Australia, where there are no railways. 

1927. You 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 127 

1927. l ou have spoken of one or two descriptions of iron sleepers adopted in 
this country. Are you aware that 150 miles ot railway, between Alexandria and 
Cairo are laid entirely upon iron sleepers ?—Yes, upon Mr. Greaves’ principle. 

1928. Have you passed over that line ?—I have not been on the line since it 
was opened to Cairo. 

1929. Mr. Chectham.] Is the supervision of your railways under the Board of 
Works in Bombay ?—No ; it is under special officers. There is the consulting 
engineer of the Government there, who has charge of the whole department 
of the railways, and sends out assistants or subordinate officers to superintend 
the railways. 

1930. That officer is an independent party to the Public Works Board ?—Yes, 
they are separate departments. 

1931- Would you still recommend the continuance of such an officer, but with 
less interference in detail ?—Yes, I think so; I am anxious to see a good Govern¬ 
ment supervision constantly and actively watching us. 

1932. Is any portion of your line opened ?—It is not. 

1933. Has your attention been drawn to the receipts of railways which have 
been opened in India?—Yes; I have been watching their returns, and 1 think 
they are very satisfactory. 

1934. Are they so satisfactory that in your opinion the Government ought, 
without so much hesitation as they have hitherto shown, to sanction all reasonable 
proposals for further railways ?—I think that, irrespective of the financial question, 
they are bound to do so. I think it is to their interest, assuming they have to 
pay the whole guarantee, to extend the railways; but after a railway has been 
opened for three or four years in an ordinarily good country, I believe we shall 
never have to look to Government for any guarantee whatever. 

1935. Is it your opinion that the course which the Government in India and 
the Government here have taken, with regard to railways, has been one of delay 
and neglect?—They have not looked with my eyes ; that is all I can say about it. 
They have not neglected the consideration of the subject, because it has been 
constantly brought before them for many years past. I suppose that, for some 
reason, they were not satisfied that it would be useful, if so, I believe they were 
the only people in the world who thought so. I know that the late Governor- 
General, and the present Governor of Bombay were most anxious to expedite the 
construction of railways in India. 

1936. Mr. H. A. Bruce.\ I understood you to say, that you would prefer using 
iron sleepers to wooden sleepers?—Yes. 

1937. First, I suppose on account of the greater economy in the original cost; 
and, secondly, on account of the increased durability?—Yes. 

1938. Have you recommended the company whom you represent to use iron 
sleepers?—I have. 

1939. "What has been the result of your recommendation ?—I was not permitted 
to use them, except in an experimental sample. 

1940. Who prevented you ?—We referred to the Government for permission, 
but it was refused, and we were obliged to adopt the old wooden sleeper system. 

IQ41. What portion of the Government interfered in the matter?—That is one 
of the questions that we can never come to the bottom of. We communicate 
direct with the India House, but whether decisions are made at the India House 
or the Board of Control we can never asceitain. 

1942. You do not know at this moment who are the persons who have pre¬ 
vented you using the iron sleepers ?—We do not. 

1943. I suppose there is hardly any limit to the durability of the iron sleeper? — 
I take the iron sleeper to last 24 years. 

1944. Why should you limit the duration of iron sletpers to 24 years?—I be¬ 
lieve they would lust a great deal longer ; but I wished to give the largest possible 
value to the arguments opposed to my own convictions. 

1945. What life do you give to the wooden sleepers?—From 3 to 12 years. 

1946. There would be no direct pressure of the railway iron upon those sleepers ? 
_None whatever; the only destruction would be from oxidation. 

1947. Was any reason given to you, as the consulting engineer of this company, 
why the use of the iron sleepers would not be permitted ?—I think the observation 
was, that the Indian Government did not try experiments. 

1948. Were your Board of Directors willing to sanction the experiment?— 
They were, and are fully convinced of the importance of it. 

0.6,. Q 4 1 949- Chairman .] 


Colonel 
J. P. Kennedy. 


17 May 1858. 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


128 


Colonel 1940. Chairman.'] Do you think, if there had been a thoroughly practical man 

J. P. Kennedy. j n t [ je j 1K ji an Government, that that objection would not have arisen?—I know 
we have the advantage of a very valuable man and a very clever man in deal- 
17 May 1858. j n g w ith us ; he is not a professional man. 

1950. Are not these questions which must require the decision and judgment 
of a practical man, whose attention lias been devoted during his life to the subject 
upon which he has to decide ?—If he can get a professional man to assist him it 
might be a great advantage; but I think it would be a very great evil indeed to 
get a man not in every way fitted for the important task, because he acts as a 
sort of arbiter between the professional men of every company, and that requires 
great judgment and very high qualities indeed. 

1951. You think the presence of the consulting engineer in England, to assist 
the decisions of the Government, might lead to controversy between your engineer 
and himself?—If he were of a high class of men, who I think might be found, it 
would be a great advantage. He, with the engineers, would form a committee, 
and they would consult upon those things interesting to India, and which would 
promote the interests of the companies, giving to each Company the practical 
experience of all the others, and a vast deal of good might result; but if he be 
not the capable man he ought to be, he would do a great deal of mischief. 

1952. Mr. H. A. Bruce.] You have given us the instance of the sleepers ; do 
you recollect any other instance in which you, as consulting engineer, were thwarted 
in your choice of materials to be sent out for the use of the railways?—No, I 
think that is the only case. 

1953. Mr. Stephenson^] I believe Sir James Melvill is not in the habit of deciding 
questions involving large engineering subjects? — No; he has unfortunately not 
had, until lately, any power deputed to him of deciding on the part of Govern¬ 
ment. I wish everything were left to his decision. 

1954. There are large engineering questions which he would not take upon 
himself to decide?—These should naturally be left to the decision of the respon¬ 
sible engineers of the respective companies. 

1955. Chairman.] Is it not the case that considerable restrictions have been 
quite recently removed in the superintendence of the ex officio director?—Yes ; 
there is a very great deal now that he is permitted to decide at our Board, and 
that has expedited matters very much, but it only commenced a short time 
back. 

1956. Is it not the case that, for some reason or other it is found that you 
receive your answers more rapidly, and that the correspondence is more correct?— 
The only change I am aware of is in the latitude given to Sir James Melvill, to 
decide on the part of Government certain matters at the Board, without waiting 
for the written authorities from the court which were formerly required. 

1957. Since when have you observed that change?—I forget the date of the 
letter authorising it, but it is very recently indeed, 1 think within a month. 




select committee on east india (railways). 


Jvvis , 20° die Mail, 1858 . 


MEMBERS PRESENT. 


Hon. H. G. Liddell. 
Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Mr. H. A. Bruce. 
Mr. Cheetham. 

Mr. Crawford. 


Mr. G!yn. 

Mr. D. Seymour. 
Mr. Stephenson, 
Colonel Sykes. 


Hon. H. G. LIDDELL, in the Chair. 


Colonel J. P. Kennedy, called in > and further Examined. 

1958. Chairman.'] IN your last day’s evidence, you expressed some very 
important opinions as to the amount of railway intercourse that you think is 
required for India, and you also went into the probable amount of money 
and time required for giving India that amount of railway accommodation. You 
also, told us, I think, that in your opinion the construction of railways was not 
going on at the rate that you think desirable. I should like now to ask you whether 
you have made any calculation as to the financial effects of the delay which you 
mention, on the several interests involved in these operations?—I should look 
upon it that the effect of the delay, in a financial point of view, is of the very 
utmost importance, and I have m ade calculations, taking as a basis for those cal¬ 
culations the length of our line from Ahmedabad to Bombay at 335 miles* I have 
calculated it, supposing it were done in two years or in three years, or in four years 
or in five years, which I call modified rates of expeditious progress. I have likewise 
calculated it at slow rates of progress, as if done in 16 years, 18 years, or 25 
years. 

1959. That is, assuming the arrangements originally between the different rail¬ 
way companies and the Court, to be carried out as they were proposed ?—No; I 
make my calculations of the effect of opening 335 miles in each of these different 
periods of time. The necessity of showing the effect of tedious periods of con¬ 
struction was suggested by the delay in opening lines for traffic in India. 

1960. The one calculation is based upon existing facts ?—Upon what might be 
done. 

1961. And the other upon what is being done?—On what had been done to 
the time at which the calculation was made. 

1962. These calculations are based on the one hand upon what you consider 
could be done ?—Yes. 

1963. And on the other, upon what has been actually done?—Upon what had 
been done at the time that this calculation was made. In fairness to the compa¬ 
nies who have been executing the works, I ought to state that it docs not take into 
account the balance of work in progress, and that is a very important thing, 
because it might otherwise appear that this was all that had been done ; this is 
what had been opened only at the time that the calculation was made. 

1964. Give us the result of this calculation?—I assume a general rate of 
expenditure in the construction at 6,000 l. per mile in every case. If the time 
occupied were two years, the cost per mile for advanced dividends and interest 
during the construction of the line and liquidation of the debt would be 427 /. per 
mile, added to the construction cost of 6,000?.; if it occupied three years, 
626 /. per mile would be added to the 6,000/.; if it occupied four years, 847 L 
per mile would be added to the cost of construction ; and if five years, 1,062/. 
per mile would be added to the cost of construction. Then if the period of 
construction be extended to 16 years, 9,465 ^ would be added to the con* 

0> 6 Ti R struction 


Colonel 
/. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1838, 





130 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel 

J. P. Kennedy. 
20 May 1858. 


struction cost per mile; if the period be extended to 18 years, 14,885/. would 
be added ; and if the period be extended to 25 years, 19,600/. would be added 
to the construction cost per mile. 

1965. That, I presume, includes compound interest upon the various periods? 
—This would be the result of the advance of dividend, and the interest accruing 
upon these dividends ; it is not exactly compound interest, but it is interest accru¬ 
ing upon the dividends. 

1966. That calculation includes interest accruing upon the dividends during 
the construction of the works, and the liquidation of the debt?—Yes; and the 
gross amount of dividends which would be advanced by Government during the 
construction of the works, to be refunded from revenue after the opening of the 
line, with interest thereon, would be, supposing the time to be two years, 143,102 /.; 
supposing it occupied three years in construction, it would be 209,945/. If it 
occupied four years, the amount would be 283,734/. If five years, 356,029/. 
If sixteen years, 3,170,898/. If eighteen years, 4,986,678/. If twenty-five 
years, 6,577,241 /. 

1967. Can you hand in a Table in answer to my question as to the financial effects 
which you anticipate will be produced by the delay in the construction of the 
railways ?—Yes. 


[The Witness handed in a Table , which is as folloics :] 

TABLE containing Financial Analysis of the Indian Government Guarantee Principle applied to the 

Construction of Railways. 


Effects of Greater or Less Time employed in constructing 335 Miles between 
Bombay and Ahmedabad. 


Subjects affected by Greater or Less Length of Time 

occupied in Construction. 

As by Modified Rates of Expeditious Progress in 

As by Tedious Practice in 

Two 

Years. 

Three 

Years. 

Four 

Years. 

1 

Five 

Y ears. 

Sixteen 

Years. 

Eighteen 

Years. 

Twenty-fi 

Years. 

As regards .Government and British and Indian 
People: 

1. Number of miles of railway to be constructed annually - 

162A 

lllf 

83| 

67 

20}! 

I8H 

13f 

2. Cost per mile for construction and stock - 

£.6,000 

£.6,000 

£.6,000 

£.6,000 

£.6,000 

£.6,000 

£.6,00( 

3. Cpst per mile lor advanced dividends, and interest 
during construction of line, and liquidation of debt - 

427 

626 

847 

1,062 

9,465 

14,885 

19,605 

4. Amount of dividends advanced by Government, during 
construction, to be refunded from revenue 

125,625 

175,875 

226,123 

276,475 

829,118 

929,502 

1,281,375 

5. Amount of interest on Government advances accruing 
during construction and liquidation of debt, to be 
paid from, revenue ------- 

17,477 

31,070 

57,611 

79,554 

2,341,780 

4,057,176 

5,295,86( 

6. Total advanced dividends and interest thereon, accruing 
during lease -------- 

143,102 

209,945 

283,734 

356,029 

3,170,898 

4,986,678 

6,577,241 

7. Annual refund, in liquidation of debt, after completion 
of line, Assuming revenue to give 10 per cent, on 
capital, over working cost - - - 

50,250 

50,250 

50,250 

50,250 

50,250 

50,250 

50,250 

8. Annual increase of debt above liquidating fund, after 







13,818 

9. Total amount refunded to Government during lease, 
for advanced dividends, and interest thereon - 

143,102 

209,945 

283,734 

356,029 

3,170,898 

4,070,250 

3,718,500 

10. Amount irrecoverable by Government, as remaining 
unliquidated at end of 99 years’ lease - 


916,428 

2,858,741 

As REGARDS SHAREHOLDERS. 

11. Number of years required, after completion of line, to 
refund debt to Government, assumiug revenue to 
give 10 per cent, on capital, over-working cost and 
renewal fund ------- 

Si 




63 t ’ 

130! 

infinite. 

12. Rate per cent, on their investment which shareholders 
must receive during period of construction 

5 

5 

5 

5 

5 

5 

5 

13. Rate per cent, which shareholders must receive during 
the liquidation of debt, assuming revenue at legal 
maximum - -- -- -- - 

H 

71 

'2 

7* 

71 

71 

71 

7 i 

14. Number of years during which shareholders must re¬ 
ceive 10 per cent, dividends, after liquidation of debt 
to end of lease, assuming revenue at legal maximum - 

94| 

91ji 

89£ 

76U 

19^ 



15. Rate at which shareholders can require Government to 
purchase line, on giving six months’ notice, and 
which rate they must receive in full, without deduc¬ 
tion on account of unliquidated debt - 

Full value. 

Full value. 

Full value. 

Full value. 

Full value. 

Full value. 

Full value. 

16. Probable average of company’s deposit, in hands of 
Government during construction - - - - i 

£.251,250 i 

£.167,500 i 

£.125,625 £.100,500 J 

£.31,406 

£.27,916 

£.20,100 



Witness !\ 































SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 131 

Witness.] I must guard myself by saying, that that calculation does not embrace 
the balance of work in operation, but merely deals with the lines opened when 
the calculations were made. 

1968. Mr. Craufoi'd.] If, as you remark, it is only justice to the railway 
company to state that the opening of the line up to the present time is no criterion, 
of what has been done in [joint of construction, what is the practical object of 
the calculations you have made?— 1 cannot say that the work may be materially 
expedited beyond that, and therefore I should guard myself against making an 
exaggerated statement. I apprehend there will be great delay, and this statement 
was intended to w arn every one connected with these operations as to the extreme 
importance of rapidity of execution. 

1969. Chairman.] When you say you apprehend great delay, I must ask you 
to explain the grounds of your apprehension ?—The delay must depend upon the 
mode adopted in dealing with the chief impediment to railway construction. 

1970. That impediment being?—The rivers of India. I think that unless a 
distinct course is taken for dealing with those rivers, there must be extra¬ 
ordinary delay ; and I think that where there is any difficulty about the founda¬ 
tions which shall cause a very large amount of time to be expended in preparing 
those foundations to receive piers and abutment for bridges, very nearly the delay 
I speak of here must occur. 

1971. Do you base that statement which you have just made, upon facts which 
have already come under your notice in regard to the progress made in certain 
bridging works with which you are acquainted ?—I base it first, on the fact of the 
length of time which has elapsed in dealing with those works that are going on. 

1972. Are you referring to works upon any other lines than your own ?—I saw 
from the commencement that unless I could establish a principle that should 
rapidly account for the bridging of rivers, my operations must be quite on the 
footing of everything else of the kind that has been going on in India. 

1973. Has your attention been called to the bridging works upon, we will say, 
the Great East India line, and have you formed your calculation upon the facts 
with which you are acquainted as to the progress of those works?—I have formed 
my calculation a good deal upon that; I was connected with those operations, 
as consulting engineer of the Government, before I had any part in the western 
works. I was anxious that no time should be lost in providing such bricks as 
might be required along the line ; and with regard to the great rivers, such as the 
Soan and Jumna, I foresaw’ that if we waited to open our communications until 
we could get a thorough communication across those riveis by bridges, unless 
some very extraordinary course were taken, and the beds of those rivers were 
adapted to that course, there must be great delay. 

1974. Do you consider that the progress made up to this time, and being made 
at the present moment, in the construction of these works, justified you in antici¬ 
pating that great delay, of which you have spoken in the Table which you have 
just handed in ?—I cannot by possibility say what the fair ratio may be ; but I 
think I was not only justified but bound to call attention to the rate of opening the 
lines that have been longest in progress, in order to prevent the delay, and to 
expedite, if possible, the future progress. 

1975. In order, so to speak, to open the eyes of the public to what might be 
the state of things?—Yes. 

1976. Mr. Crawford.] The views which you have expressed in that paper 
which you have handed in, are founded, as I understand, upon assumptions to a 
certain extent?—They are, certainly. 

1077. What are those assumptions?—They are that the rate hereafter shall 
correspond with the rate heretofore in opening the lines of railway. 

1978. Do you think that is a fair assumption to make?—With the acknow¬ 
ledgment that the calculation is made on that assumption, I think it is. 

1979. If these assumptions prove not to be correct, then of course all the 
deductions you draw from those assumptions are, so far as the argument is con¬ 
cerned, valueless?—I do not think they are valueless, because I maintain a great 
deal of delay has occurred in opening the line upon which the Tables are based; 
and their value will have been proved, as well as my object accomplished, by an 
increased rapidity in the future opening of lines. 

1980. At what period did you quit the office of consulting engineer, in the 
railway department of the Government of India ?—I think it w ? as in April 1851. 

1981. Do you remember the particular stage at which the East India line had • 

0.61, r 2 arrived] 


Colonel 
J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1858 . 



132 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Colonel arrived at that time ?—Yes, the works had been just commenced; there was a 
J. P. Kennedy. ver y s ]ight portion of embankment put up, close to Howrah. I had perambulated 
' ‘ the grounds with the chief engineer of the line from Howrah to Pundoah, with 

20 May 1858. a v j ew to se ttle the openings for the waterway; the plans and sections of a 
very short portion had been given in to me as consulting engineer to the Govern¬ 
ment, and I had adopted what I believe was an extraoidiuary course, of recom¬ 
mending the smallest portions he could give in as they came in, in order to 
expedite the construction. I think the two first portions that came in were of 
two miles only, and I felt justified in recommending those small portions of the 
working plans, because I bad ascertained that they were in reference to a general 
plan which I knew to be perfectly correct. That was the state of things; they 
had their centre line staked out the whole way to Pundoah when I left India. 

1982. To what extent did you, as consulting engineer, approve of the works of 
the East Indian line, as they have since been constructed ?—There was very little 
done in the way of absolute construction when I left India, but I approved 
thoroughly of everything that was proposed to be done. 

1983. Did you approve of the line to Raneegung?—Assuredly. 

1984. Were you the consulting engineer whose official sanction was given to 
the construction of tlie line to Raneegung ?—The consulting engineer had no 
power of giving sanction ; he could only report to the Government his views. I 
reported most distinctly upon a question that had been long pending. My 
predecessor had left India, stating that he had not been over the whole of the line, 
and therefore could not give a decided opinion upon it; at the time I joined I 
had already arranged, from the effect of climate upon my health, to come home to 
England, but I saw that it was so. extremely important a question that I deter¬ 
mined to see the line, and to try whether I could have the decision of the 
Government upon it before I left. I w^as aware, as the cool season was rapidly 
terminating, that it w'ould put the works off for a full year, if I did not get a 
decision upon that point, and therefore I arranged to go with the chief engineer 
of the East India Railway over the whole of the disputed points. 

1985. Was the question of the extension of the line in the direction of the 
North West Provinces referred to you ?—1 took it up as a matter of course; 
it became my duty to look into it. 

1986. Did you report upon it?—I did. 

1987. What w as the tenor of your report ?—I think, in answ er to that question, 
I had better read a few extracts from my report, which is dated 29th January 
1851. In that report I stated, “The Government have not been furnished with 
any data upon which to ground a decision as to the further extension of the line 
beyond the collieries. My predecessor, in his last report, dated 29th April 1850, 
abstains from giving a decided opinion as to which of the disputed directions, 
that by Sherghottee Hills, or that by the Ganges River, should be subsequently 
adopted as the line of the road towards its destination in the North Western 
Provinces. Mr. Simms offers, as a reason for the withholding the expression 
of a decided opinion upon this very important question, the fact that he had only 
examined one-third of the river line.” Then I said, “This omission I shall seek 
to supply, as 1 feel that the quick settlement of this question on sound grounds is 
essential to the systematic progress of the undertaking generally, as well as to the 
character for prudential forethought and energy of all those who are concerned >n 
its control, superintendence, or direction. For these reasons, I shall make 
every exertion to examine generally the Ganges line before leaving India, as the 
working year here for such an examination is by most persons restricted to about 
five or six months; and if I allow this cold season to pass w ithout placing before 
Government the means of coming to a decision, the question will most probably 
remain in its present undecided and unsatisfactory state for another year. I have 
twice seen the Sherghottee Hills line, and lest my health should prevent my inten* 
tion of visiting the Ganges line before I quit India, I shall even now place 
before the Government such considerations connected with the known circum¬ 
stances of the tw^o lines as I am justified in doing, reserving my final opinion, as 
far as it is dependent on an actual view of the Ganges line, until after having 
visited that district; this course may avert fruitless arrangements and anticipa¬ 
tions, or perhaps irretrievable errors. The original project, as it now stands, 
appears to be, that a line of railway should he formed from Calcutta to Delhi, 
passing over the Sherghottee Hills, and thence to Mirzapore, the latter place 
being 466 miles from Calcutta, throwing out one branch to Rajmahal, 140 miles 

in 



133 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

in length ; one to Patna, 40 miles; and a third to Benares, of 15 miles. The 
length of railway thus required between Calcutta and Mirzapore, including its 
branches, would be 661 miles by the Hill route. The branches are no doubt a 
veiy important part of the project as a means, although an imperfect means, of 
bringing upon the line the Lower Ganges traffic. The undulating land and hill 
district extend for about 200 miles ; they would entail heavy cuttings and fillings, 
with quick inclines and curves. The old section shows a summit°of 1,380 feet 
above Calcutta, and 1,040 feet above Mirzapore, with an aggregate rise 
towards Mirzapore of 2,044, and an aggregate fall in the same direction of 
i,$04 feet, and a maximum incline, for nearly 10 miles, of 1 in 61 or 
1 in 62.” 

1988. Will you state the grounds upon which you recommended the Valley line 
in preference to the direct line ?—I recommended the circuitous line in preference to 
the direct line, because it went through a rich, populous, and level district, instead 
of a hilly district, a barren district, and a district without much population, if any. 
I calculated that the expense of haulage upon the circuitous line would be much less 
per ton in making the whole journey Irom Mirzapore to Calcutta, than on the direct 
line over the hills, and that therefore, in a financial point of view, even for the 
Upper Ganges traffic, it would be much the most economical. I thought we had 
no right under the circumstances then existing to carry a line away from the 
richest and best country perhaps in India, through a barren district for 300 miles; 
and that we had no right, in looking at the interests of the Company, to leave 
perhaps the best feeder of a line, the Lower Ganges, for a barren district 
where it could get no local traffic; for these reasons I distinctly decided that 
every view bore me out in recommending the circuitous route. In this decision 
Mr. Turnbull, the chief engineer of the line, entirely concurred with me. I will beg 
of you to read a few passages from my report, written after we had been over the 
line. It is dated the 27th February 1851 : “ In refe rence to paragraphs 21 to 54 
of my report, dated 29th ultimo, I have the honour to state that on the 9th instant 
I leit Calcutta, and having joined Mr. Turnbull, the chief engineer of the East 
India Railway Company, at Serampore, we proceeded together, accompanied by 
Mr. De Craig, surveyor, to examine the comparative merits of the Ganges and 
direct lines preparatory to offering any final opinion as to which should be the 
route for continuing the railway from Calcutta to the North Western Provinces. We 
proceeded by Rajmahal, Monghur, Patna, &c. to the confluence of the Soan with 
the Ganges, and returned over the chain of hills by Dunvva to Burdwan. I had 
already obtained much information regarding the district lying between the River 
Hooghly and Rajmahal, both by personal communication with Colonel Forbes, and 
from his valuable report and survey of that district. The comparison of levels 
on the competing lines, and the general effect of that question as regards the 
future revenues of the railway company, I dwelt upon sufficiently in the paragraphs 
above referred to in my former report on this subject. The engineering difficulties 
I conceive, would be very much less by the Ganges than by the hill route, the 
width of the formidable River Soan being little more than three-fourths of a mile at 
the point where it would be passed on the Ganges route, whilst it is nearly miles 
wide at the point of passage proposed on the direct or hill route. The great com¬ 
mercial advantage to the public, as well as the financial advantages which must 
accrue to the railway company by the adoption of the Ganges route, will be at once 
understood by any one who will take the trouble of visiting the whole of the district, 
as I have just done. He will find the circular canal at Calcutta, or the terminal 
harbour for Ganges traffic, so crowded by arriving and departing boats of consider¬ 
able burden, as completely to cover and block up that extensive canal. He will find 
numbers of boats with their loads ‘ laid high and dry’ on the shallow hanks of the 
Bagharetta River ; he wifi perceive the broad waters of the Ganges from every point 
of view as he ascends that river, and as far as the eye can reach, covered with fleets of 
laden boats, with their crews toiling towards their different points of destination, 
against the jnost adverse circumstances; and finally he will be hailed by an 
enthusiastic and universal welcome from merchants, manufacturers, and pro¬ 
ducers of every class in any proposition that he can make calculated to 
remove the risks, to shorten the time, or to reduce the painful labour, cost, and 
uncertainty which now attend their efforts to bring the produce of their districts into 
any market. No man who makes this tour will have a doubt as to the enormous 
extent of the Ganges carrying traffic; nor as to the vast impediments which at 
present oppose its success. He will be struck with admiration at the persevering 

0.61. H 3 and 


Colonel 

J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1858, 



Colonel 

J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1858. 


, 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

and courageous exertions of those enterprising men who dare to face such impedi¬ 
ments, and he will he convinced of the enormous public benefit as well as the 
private advantages which must attend the removal of these impediments by laying 
a line of railway along this great commercial artery of India. And as the tia- 
veller turns in his course to examine the competing line through the lulls, he will 
find that the Gangetic train will answer every purpose ; that every hackery load 
of produce now travelling along the road must necessarily drop into the company s 
trucks, and that neither public inconvenience nor private loss can attend the with¬ 
holding of a railway from the desert hilt district in question. It is upon these 
grounds, in addition to the grounds put forward in my report of 29th January last, 
that I venture with the utmost confidence and earnestness to recommend the 
extension of the East India Company’s railway by the route of the Ganges, and 
not by the desert hill route. If the Government should agree to my recom¬ 
mendation of adopting the Ganges line, I believe that the East India Railway 
with its extension into the North Western Provinces will, when completed, form the 
most perfect work of the kind in the world.” 

19S9. Were you in possession at that time of any plans and sections for the 
direct route?—We had the trial plans and sections for the direct route. 

1990. You stated in answer to a question just now, that you conceived that the 
difficulties of crossing the rivers were likely to present the greatest impediments to 
the progress of railway construction in India ?—I did. 

1991. Would there have been on the direct line any more than the one im¬ 
portant passage over the Soan to contend with ?—That was the chief impediment 
upon that line. 

1992. In the way of river obstruction?—That was the greatest impediment, 
and it is the chief impediment on the whole line. 

* 993 * Was there any other river that would have offered anything in the shape 
of serious impediment?—I think there was no great impediment besides that 
until we arrive at the Jumna, 

1994. On the circuitous or Valley line, you would have to encounter a series 
of bridging works?— I do not think there were any great difficulties on that line 
except the Soan ; it did not occur to us at the time we made our first examination 
that there were any very great difficulties. If the principle we follow upon the 
western coast were established there, I believe there would be very few difficulties 
indeed. 

1995. Were you aware, at the lime you recommended the circuitous line, that 
you w'ould have to cross in the first place the Adjie with a bridge of 1,800 feet in 
length, and subsequently at a short distance the Mor, on a bridge two-tbirds of 
that magnitude; and then a succession of heavy bridging works before you get 
to RajmahaJ, and after passing Rajmahal that you would have to pass through 
very difficult country in respect to bridge-making, and that you would have to 
overcome water obstacles between Colgong and Dinapore?—I was quite aware 
that the water difficulties would be much greater on that line with the exception 
of the Soan, but I think they would not have amounted to the difference 
between the crossing of the Soan by the direct line, and crossing it at the place 
where we decided to cross it, because there was the difference of two and a half 
miles on the direct line in the width of the Soan, as compared with three-quarters 
of a mile on the other line. I do not think that the whole increased difficulties 
in other respects would come up to the difference which existed between the 
width of the two crossings of the Soan. 

1996. You have left the direct line, which offered but one considerable bridg¬ 
ing difficulty, and have adopted a line which presents one continuous series of 
bridging difficulties?—We had not a minute plan of the circuitous route, and our 
opinion was, that the united difficulties of the other route would not be equal to 
the difference in the difficulties between the two crossings of the Soan, 

1997. Have you given your attention to the subject since you gave up the 
office of consulting engineer to the Government in India?—Not much. 

^998. You are not aware, then, of the difficulties which have been found to 
exist on the circuitous route ?—I have not had any detailed account of those 
difficulties. 

*999- ^ ou are unable, then, from any knowledge of your own upon that point, 
to test the assumptions which you have made in presenting the series of calcu¬ 
lations to the Committee at the commencement of this day’s proceedings? - It 

does 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 135 

does not alter the question ; if the delay occur, no matter from what cause, these 
results must be produced. 

2000. Have you been able to make yourself acquainted with the nature of the 
difficulties which the East Indian Railway Company have had to encounter in 
consequence of the circuitous route having been adopted in preference to the 
direct one, those difficulties being in the nature of bridges, flood arch openings, 
and other means of passing over a country very liable to inundation at certain 
periods of the year? —I do not know even now whether the difficulties are 
greater on the circuitous route, when I recollect that on one passage you have two 
miles and a half instead of three quarters of a mile ; that leaves a "difference of 
one mile and three quarters. I doubt whether you will find that all your diffi¬ 
culties amount to one mile and three quarters of viaduct, and of that class 
which the passage of the Soan would have thrown upon you there ; that is a 
question to take into account; but I would go the length of saying that if we had 
two miles and a half at the other place instead of three quarters of a mile on 
the direct line, I should have preferred that, according to every principle that 
ought to regulate an engineer in laying out a line of railway, no matter what the 
difficulties were, if they were at all compassable. 

2001. I confine my question to the question of bridging difficulties upon the 
circuitous route, throwing out of account altogether the political, commercial, and 
other considerations which may have affected your decision when the matter was 
referred to you ; practically speaking, the result has been that in the selection of 
the Ganges line the East Indian Railway Company has had formidable difficulties 
presented to it in the way of bridging works, which would not have occurred if 
they had taken the direct route?—I should apprehend that in that comparison 
you have not given full value to the enormous importance of bridging two miles 
and a half on the direct line. 

2002. Are you acquainted, generally speaking, with the district on which it 
was proposed to cross the Soan by the direct route?—I am generally acquainted 
with it, but I have never gone into an engineering examination of it. 

2003. Do you know the banks of the river above the part where the grand 
trunk road crosses the Soan?—I have not perambulated the Soan river except at 
its two crossings, where it was proposed to pass near Patna, a"nd the other cross¬ 
ing on the direct line. 

2004. Did you hear that an eligible point for crossing might have been found 
at another part of the stream different to that at which the grand trunk line 
crosses it?—I heard it suggested that by keeping more to the contour line of the 
hills, and passing up the river, an easier crossing might have been had. 

2005. No means were taken, so far as you know, to ascertain that?—No, and 
however easy it might have been, it would not have altered my opinion as to the 
propriety of selecting the circuitous route. 

2006. You have made some reference in a former answer to the question of 
bricks, and, as I understood, you stated that you had foreseen a difficulty with 
regard to the preparation of bricks in sufficient quantities in Bengal ?—No ; but 
I was anxious that no time should be lost in preparing a sufficient supply of 
bricks for the works generally. 

2007. Do you know the general character of the countries through which the 
rivers run, which descend from the Sherghotty hills, and fall into the Ganges?— 
No. 

2008. It is an alluvial country, is it not?- After it has left the hills. 

2009. These rivers arc, in point of fact, nearly dry channels in the winter 

season, and immense torrents in the rainy season ?—They are. .... 

2010. Passing o\er an alluvial soil, was there not great difficulty in finding 
foundations for the bridges?—Very great. 

2011. Do you not think, as you have led us to infer, that in your opinion 
some delay has been caused in the construction of the line, that the cause of that 
difficulty may reasonably be found in the great difficulty of overcoming these 
impediments?—-That must be the only cause of the delay; I am convinced that 
dealing with the rivers is the only cause of delay on that line. 

2012. Mr. Stephenson .] What is the length of the Ganges line from Benares 
to the point of junction; is it about 500 miles?—About 500. 

2013. And the other, I believe, is about 400?—About 400. 

2014. That does not fairly represent, I believe, the difference in the length 
to be executed to give the convenience required from the railway ?—Certainly not. 

6l R4 2015. I believe 


Colonel 
J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1858. 



136 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel 
J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1858 . 


2015. I believe branches were in addition presented, which would reduce the 
120 miles difference?—There was one contemplated to Patna, 40 miles; one to 
Rajmahal, 140 miles; and one to Benares, 15 miles; making in all, 661 miles. 

2016. The fact is, that the cost of execution arose from a considerable increase 
1 in the length of the line?—Yes, by the direct line; and, in addition to that, 

these branches never could have supplied the requirements of that extremely 
important district; they never could have gathered up the traffic of the Lower 
Ganges district from both sides of the river as the present line must. 

2017. Would the produce and population of the Valley of the Ganges, extend¬ 
ing over 400 or 500 miles, have been greatly inconvenienced by the direct line ? — 
I think so. 

2018. It would have led, I believe, to the execution of both lines in the end ?— 
I think so. The Valley of the Ganges had a right to a line, irrespective of any¬ 
thing else. 

20if). Admitting that they had considerable difficulties in bridge building, and 
more on the circuhous route as compared with the direct route, have you any 
doubt in your own mind, taking the cost of hauling goods in large quantities over 
both these lines, that the difference in cost would have been far more than equi¬ 
valent to any interest and money they have lost, or are supposed to, have lost, by 
adopting the expensive bridge line?—My own calculations made it very much irt 
favour of the circuitous line ; and I can sustain those calculations by a very 
valuable corroboration, in the coal traffic on the North-Eastern and Great Northern 
Railways, as described to me by Mr. Harrison. 

2020. With regard to the relative cost of locomotive power on both these 
lines, state to the Committee what has been the result of your interview with Mr. 
Harrison, the engineer of the North-Eastern Railway?—His views entirely corro¬ 
borate the soundness of my opinion, and the calculation I made in reference to the 
comparative cost of haulage 011 the direct and on the circuitous line. I have 
stated that I consider the cost of hauling a ton of goods on the whole distance of 
the circuitous line would have been much less than the cost of hauling it along 
the direct route; the difference of the gradients upon the direct line would have 
added so much to the cost of haulage, by diminishing the loads that an equal power 
of locomotive engine could convey, as compared with what it could convey upon 
the level line, that the expense per ton on the whole journey would have been 
much greater on the hill line than on the level line. Mr. Harrison shows by the 
practice in the coal traffic upon the North-Eastern Railway, that in the distance 
from Darlington to York, the same power of engine can carry 45 trucks loaded 
with eight tons of coals, as compared with 30 trucks, when it passes York, and 
reaches the Great Northern line. This enables the same engine to carry 360 tons 
of profitable load upon the Darlington line, while it could only carry 240 tons 
upon the Great Northern line, in consequence of the difference of gradient. 

2021. You have not stated the difference of gradient between that case and 
your line?—The ruling gradients on the Darlington line are 1 in 500, or the same 
as on the Ganges line. On the Great Northern the ruling gradient is 1 in 200 ; 
here we find that the difference in the load which the same engine carries is 36a 
tons as compared with 240, making 120 tons additional profitable load per train 
on the more level line. Now, assuming even that 1 in 200 could have been 
obtained as the ruling gradient on the Sherghottee barren line, which is not 
possible, without lengthening the distance proportionally, and comparing the 
haulage on that gradient with the haulage on the Ganges line, where the ruling 
gradient is 1 in 500, and putting the rate per ton for goods carried at | cl. per 
mile as charged on the Raneegung coals, your engine would earn 22 s. 6 d. per 
train mile on the Ganges line, and only 15 s. per train mile on the direct line, 
making a saving of 7 s. 6 d. per train mile in favour of the Ganges line; and 
when you take into account the cost of haulage, assuming it to be 2 s. per train 
mile, you have a distinct saving of nearly four times the cost of the haulage by 
adopting the Ganges line. 

2022. The result of that calculation I think is, that if two engines left Benares 
for Calcutta, one by the Ganges line and the other by the direct line, each of 
them loaded to their maximum, supposing the circuitous line to be 500 miles, the 
engine would have produced on her arrival at Calcutta 120/. more upon that 
journey than the other ?—Yes ; assuming the freight per ton on the whole length 
of the respective journeys to be the same, say 1 l. $s. Each Ganges train 

would 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 137 

would earn 150/. more than the direct train between Benares and Calcutta, each 
carrying its maximum load. 

2023. Taking the distance at 500 miles, at 5 5. per mile, the saving on that 
journey would represent 120 l. ?—Yes, it would. 

2024. Mr. D\ Seymour .] Are you of opinion that the short route ought 
still to be made ?—I do not think it can be required, unless the passenger traffic 
arrives at that point that it may be worth while to make an express passenger 
line; I think the circuitous route must always carry the goods cheaper from Mirza- 
poor to Calcutta than the other line ; but if you make a short line for the express 
passenger traffic, I think there would be a saving of some four hours to a pas¬ 
senger who was anxious to get rapidly over the ground ; and therefore, as 
soon as the commerce of India arrives at such a point as to make time so 
valuable, it may be a question worth consideration whether you would not make 
that line. 

2025. Is Mirzapoor the great entrepot between Eastern and Western India ?— 
Yes ; it is a most important place for traffic. 

2026; I believe Colonel Cotton does not consider the difficulty of bridging 
the rivers of India so serious as you do ?—I do not consider them serious if the 
right course be adopted ; they are almost the only difficultv you have, except 
where you have to deal with a hilly country. 

2027. I thought you said that, in your opinion they were considerable?—I 
think they are the only difficulties. 

2028. I have one or two questions to ask you with regard to your previous 
examination. I believe the general principle upon which it was proposed to 
guarantee the railways in India was to guarantee the main lines, and to leave the 
rest to be made by companies without a guarantee?—I am not aware on w r hat 
principle it was adopted, but I have always urged the necessity of a rapid 
principle of extension of the railways; I never could find any principle very 
distinctly defined. 

2029. In April 1 855, when I came into the Board of Control, there was a 
question I believe before the Board as to which was the best way of reaching 
Eastern India at Mirzapore, whether by the Great Indian Peninsular, or by the 
Surat, Baroda, and Central India Railway ?—Yes. 

2030. You recommended the Baroda and Central India Railway r—Yes; I had 
always recommended it. 

2031. As the best way of reaching the East India Railway ?—Yes. 

2032. You proposed to go up to Surat ?—Yes. 

2033. And then up the valley of the Taptee?—Yes. 

2034. Taking your line in comparison with that of the Great Indian Peninsular, 
you would have gone two sides of the triangle, and the Great Indian Peninsular 
would cut across the other side?—Yes; but we should carry goods and passengers 
at much less cost from terminus to terminus, the level character of our road 
enabling our engines to convey larger loads. 

2035. From Bombay up to Surat you would have had the sea in competition 
w ith you ?—We run along the shore. 

2036. From Surat up the Taptee?—Yes. 

2037. Which is a river that some people maintain may be made navigable ?— 
I do not think that I have ever heard anyone maintain that. 

2038. Was there not a report of an engineer, in which it was stated as 
practicable ?—I never heard of it; I have heard some wild people say that the 
Nerbudda might be made navigable. 

2039. I think in your report you said it was a pestiferous jungle along the 
Taptee from Surat for a considerable distance along its banks?—There is an 
unhealthy district crossing the Taptee and going to Indore, I believe on this 
account that it is shut up for the passage of troops during a portion of the year, 

2040. It has been considered unhealthy along the banks of the Taptee ?—A 
portion of it only. But train-speed shields the traveller by rapidly passing through 
the Jungle, where the slow palanquin traveller or horseman may be obliged to 
sleep and meet his death. 

2041. And is, T believe, very slightly inhabited ?—One particular portion of it is. 

2042. A considerable portion ?—To the eastward of Songhier it is a very 
populous, and rich country. 

2043. What is the distance in miles from Bombay to Surat?—About 180 
miles. 

0.61. S 2044. 1 think 


Colonel 
J. P. Remedy. 


20 May 1858 . 



Colonel 
J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1858. 


138 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

2044. I think that from Bombay to Damaun the country is thinly inhabited, 
is it not f—Part of it is. 

2045. For the greater portion of the way between Bombay and Surat the 
country is thinly inhabited, and you run along the sea coast ?—A portion of it is 
not thickly populated, but there are considerable towns along the coast, as also 
in theTaptee line; and the Governor of Bombay, at par. 13 of his Minute, dated 
18 July 1854, states, “Without taken into account the many populous cities and 
rich districts which the prolongation of Colonel Kennedy’s line would connect 
with Bombay, and confining our view to the places on either line between Bombay 
and Julgaum, I am prepared to show that there are more places with a certain 
amount of population and commerce, and a greater variety of exportable produce 
upon the Surat, than upon the Thull Gh 4 t line and this high verdict is based 
upon accompanying comparative returns given in detail, from “ the records of 
Government, and from other sources.” 

2046. On the other side of your railway, you run along a range of mountains 
which begin to rise about 30 miles distant from the railway ?—Yes. 

2047. So that you have a long barren district along the sea coast ?—Yes, for 
some distance. 

2048. Then you must depend for that bit of railway from Bombay to Surat, 
upon the traffic further on ?—No, I maintain that there is no district in England 
that has a belt of 40 miles for its exclusive traffic. 

2049. Would you say that, from Bombay to Surat, it is a rich and populous 
country?—Not as compared with some others. But the Minute of the Governor 
of Bombay, already referred to, proves that it is superior in these respects to the 
Thull Ghat line. 

2050. I think you have stated in a former part of your evidence that you 
could hardly expect to carry the cotton down from Bombay to Guzerat cheaper 
than the boats do now?—l do not think I could have said that, because they 
carry it at different rates, at different times of the year. 

2051. Your answer was, “ I think we could carry it quite as low at the present 
rate, and lower at times. ,, You could not carry it much lower than the present 
rate ? — Not lower than the minimum rate, but a great deal lower than the 
maximum rate, and we could carry it all the year round. 

2052. Do you remember when I had the honour of a conversation with you, 
that I stated that, so far as the direct line went, I greatly preferred the Great 
Indian Peninsula, so far as it was the connecting line from Bombay to the East 
India Railway, because it was 200 or 300 miles shorter; and because, from the 
accounts, it appeared to me to go through a more populous country ?—It is not 
200 or 300 miles shorter; it is not much shorter to the point of meeting. 

2053. When it was first established, was it not intended that the Bombay, 
Baroda and Central India Company, should go across the main East India Line? 
—Our main line was to go to the north ; I must clearly state that the main object 
we had was to construct the main line to the north from Bombay, to meet the 
East India Railway going up to the Noi'th Western Provinces, and the line which 
has been alluded to by Mr. Danby Seymour is a branch from that; that question 
had been decided when I had the honour of meeting Mr. Danby Seymour at the 
Board of Control. 

2054. What was the original line which your railway company proposed to 
construct on the 5th April 1855 ?—The principal route w'as one from Bombay via 
Surat, and Baroda to Agra ; there were branches from that, and the principal of 
them was the Taptee branch. 

2055. How far was the Taptee branch intended to go ?—I contemplated its 
going the whole way through, to meet the Calcutta line. 

2056. At Mirzapore?—At Mirzapore. I did not the other day allude to the 
question of the Taptee branch, because that was just at the time you joined the 
Board, and it was soon decided. What I did complain of, was the delay from 
that time, in receiving the sanction for the construction of the main link of our 
whole line, namely, from Surat to Bombay. 

2057. Would you state what the vast number of reasons which I gave you, 
and to which you object, were, or some specimens of them ?—One of them was, 
that having water communication, we did not want land communication, or 
something to that effect. I urged in that case that it was so very incomplete a 
water communication that it could scarcely be called a communication. 

2058. Did I not state to you that the sum of money which the Government 

could 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 139 

could guarantee upon railways was limited, and therefore I thought it was the 
duty of the Government to look to the whole of India, and see where there 
was the least communication, and that where there was a water communication, 
although it was imperfect, the railway should be postponed until districts through 
India, where there was neither imperfect water communication nor any land 
communication, were supplied ?—I am aware that a great many principles have 
keen adopted by the Government, but they have been altered upon very good 
grounds. I do not understand the principle upon which it is stated that the 
Government could not afford more funds, for they do not pay a farthing for 
anything that is done in India, as regards the construction of railways. 

2050. Colonel Sykes .] Is it not entirely a jungle the whole distance from Surat 
to Roorhampoor by the Taptee ?—Not at all. 

2060. Have you seen the population returns for that line ?—I have not gone 
through the returns, but I have gone through the country ; there is a consider¬ 
able distance to the westward of Boorhampoor, which is a rich country and 
populous. 

2061. Are you aware of the population on that line per square mile ?—I am not; 
but I know that Captain Wingate’s revenue survey report gives a most favourable 
description of the whole of that district. In speaking of the assessment on 
Khandeish, he says at par. 4, “ The soil of Khandeish is more fertile, and yields 
heavier crops than that of either the Deccan or Southern Mahratta country.” At 
par. 6, “ Irrigation is more extensively practised at Khandeish than in the 
Deccan or Southern Mahratta country.” Par. 54, “These rates could not be 
paid at all in the Deccan, but the superior fertility of the soil in Khandeish, and 
the care with which its products can be converted into money, from nearly all 
being grown for export, as well as the advantages enjoyed by the cultivator in 
being allowed the privilege of free grazing over the wastes of Khandeish, make 
them in reality far less onerous than would be supposed from simply comparing 
them with the rates on dry crop land elsewhere.” 

2062. Have you seen the populatiun returns of that district from Surat to 
Boorhampoor ; are you aware of the population per square mile ?—I am not. 

2063. Is there any town along that line?—Several. 

2064. What towns ?—I forget the names of them. 

2065. Is Nundoorbar one of them ?—That is one of the towns; that is one of 
the worst towns. 

2066. Name the towns ?—It is a fine country, but I do not recollect the 
name of the towns. 1 have travelled through them, and they are very good towns. 

2067. Have you traversed the line from Bombay to Surat by the coast line as 
well as under the Ghauts?—Yes, I have traversed the coast line; they are very 
nearly the same. 

2068. Have you done it, or have you not; have you traversed the line from 
Bombay to Surat by the coast ?—1 will tell you the route I went. 

2069. Answer “ Yes” or “ Nodid you traverse the line from Bombay to 
Surat by the coast ?—Most of the way does go along by the coast. 

2070. Did you ?—T did. 

2071. Did you traverse the line along the foot of the Ghauts from Surat to 
Bombay ?—No. 

2072. Did you traverse the intermediate line between the foot of the Ghauts 
and the coast line ?—No, I only travelled one. 

2073. Are you aware that the bamboo jungles there exist for scores of miles 
together, and are of the densest character, between Surat and Bom by ?—There 
were no dense jungles to be found, and I have gone the whole line. 

2074. Are there not very numerous inlets of the sea along the coast line?— 
Yes. 

2075. All of which would require bridging ?—Yes. 

2076. What is the population along the coast ?—It has been given by the 
Governor of Bombay, as already referred to by me. 

2077. What is the population inland, supposing the route were to run inland ? 
—I would not think of taking it inland, because then you would get into the 
hills. 

2078. You do not consider the difficulty of the inlets of the sea a serious im¬ 
pediment ?—No, I do not. 

207Q. Are not two or three of them very wide?—There is only one wide inlet 
on the coast, and that is at Bassein. 

0.61. s 2 


Colonel 
J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1858. 


2080. Is 



Colonel 
J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1853 . 


140 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

2080. Is that three miles across ?—No; one and a quarter, of which a consi¬ 
derable portion may be embanked, so as to reduce the bridging to much less than 
a mile. 

2081. Are there not others besides that along the coast ?—There are rivers, blit 
nothing else of that character. 

2082. Of great width?—No. 

2083. Tidal rivers?—Yes. 

2084. And tidal creeks?—We keep inside the wide parts of the creeks,so that 
we have nothing of a very wide character except Bassein, and that is an easy 
matter to deal with, because there is no great velocity in the current; it receives 
the waters from a comparatively narrow river. 

2085. You consider, with a rival means of transit by sea for eight months in 
the year, that you can carry goods profitably for the whole of the year from Surat 
to Bombay ?—I think so. 

2086. Have you made a calculation to that effect ?—Yes. 

2087. As compared with sea traffic ?—Yes; when I was there I made the cal¬ 
culation, and I thought we could carry as low, if not lower ; much lower at 
certain times. 

2088. At what rate do the pattamars carry goods ?—At very different rates at 
different seasons of the year. 

2089. What is the highest rate ?—It ranges from what would be equivalent to 
three-halfpence down to a halfpenny per ton per mile. 

2090. Is it a higher rate than you would be able to carry at ?—The high rate 
is much higher than we should carry at, and I think vvc should carry at about the 
lowest rate. 

2091. In reference to your hypothetical calculation, as to the future probable 
progress of construction, would it not, in your opinion, have been safer to make 
your calculation from the date of commencing operations to the completion of the 
sections, rather than from the date of the agreement with the Court of Directors ? 
—I think not, because it was made as much to stimulate the Court of Directors as 
with any other object; if there were difficulties that prevented the rapid commence¬ 
ment of the works, it was right that the Government should know that those delays 
had a very important financial effect upon the operations of the railways. 

2092. Supposing that those delays were consequent upon matters over which 
neither the Court nor the Government of India had any control, is it right to 
make these hypothetical calculations upon the assumption that they had that 
control ?—They must have had the control; there were no other parties but the 
railway authorities and the authorities of the Government, and there could be no 
delay except what originated with one of them. 

2093. Did it not occur that it was owing to parties who had made contracts 
with the Company not fulfilling their engagements to pay up the capital?—I 
never heard any difficulty about that. We have never had any difficulty so long 
as we have had a Government guarantee. There was very little chance of 
obtaining money without that Government guarantee, but with it we have had no 
difficulty that I am aware of. 

2094. Might there not be other causes than the mere action of the authorities 
to occasion delay in the commencement of operations?—I do not think there can 
be other causes, because the Government have always regulated their rate of 
guarantee to suit the money market; some of the guarantees" are down to 4^ per¬ 
cent., and others are five; there is a discretion for the Government to use, but 
we have always had the power of obtaining capital by the rate of guarantee they 
chose to offer. 

2095. Do you consider that the difficulty of obtaining bricks occasioned delay 
in the sections of the East India Railway ?—I should think that must have 
occasioned difficulties if the contractors cannot keep to their contracts, or if the 
Company do not keep the business in their own hands; if they do, I think they 
can arrange the supply of bricks in any way they choose. 

2096. My question was whether the difficulty in obtaining bricks had occa-' 
sioned delay ?—They had not commenced that class of operations when I was there. 

2097* I understood you to say there might be a difficulty in obtaining bricks 
along the East India line?—No, I think not. 

2098. If there had been that difficulty, it would most likely have existed on 
the lines of Western India ; but was there any difficulty in obtaining the bricks 
there ?—I think not. 


2099. Mr. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 141 

2099. Cheetham.] Would there not have been a considerable saving of 
time in the construction of the direct line, supposing you had adopted that ?—I 
would not have signed my name to a paper selecting the direct line for any 
consideration ; it was so objectionable in every view as regarding the wants of 
the public, that no inducement could have made me sign a recommendation for 
that line in preference to the Ganges line. 

2100. You do not say whether there would have been a saving of time in the 
selection of that route ?—I do not think it is of any use to save time in performing 
a faulty operation. 

2101. You stated, I think, that the expense of the line of the valley of the 
Ganges w as justified in your opinion by the increased traffic and population, and 
also by its better gradient r—I do not go into the question of absolute expense of 
construction of the two lines, one would not have answered the object in view, and 
the other did. 

2102. You stated that the difference in the gradient justified the construction 
of the line of the Ganges?—That was referring to the working cost, and the 
haulage power of the engines ; that was one of the principle reasons in favour of 
the level line. • 

2103. Supposing this Committee has had in evidence before it that the gradient 
of the direct line might have been made as good as the valley line for no greater 
expense, what then would be your opinion?—It is impossible that such should be 
the case. 

2104. Mr. Stephenson.] Do you know any country in the world, except the 
Ganges valley, through which a river runs that would admit of that ruling gradient 
for 400 miles of 1 in 500 ?—I think it would be impossible to find any wdtnout 
increasing proportionally its length. 

2105. Do you believe that you know' any country in the world in such a position 
as that, that will admit of a ruling gradient of 1 in 500?—I think it would be 
exceedingly difficult to find it, except at a sacrifice of distance that would 
be very great indeed. I think that by running according to the contour of the 
country, you may select any gradient you like, but you pay for it in the 
distance. 

2106. Do you know any country in the world in which there is any district of 
that extent not situated in a great valley with a ruling gradient of 1 in 200 ?—I 
do not. 

2107. Mr. H. A. Bruce. 1 On Monday last I asked you some questions with 
reference to sleepers. Are you prepared to give any fuller evidence now; first, 
as to the cost of wooden sleepers delivered on the line, and in the next place as 
to the duration of iron sleepers ?—Since I was last here we have had a commu¬ 
nication from India, and our agent reports that he cannot undertake to get 
sleepers under from 6 to to or 12 rupees, that is from 12s. to 205. a-piece, and 
therefore we must send the whole of the sleepers we require from England ; the 
sleepers for a mile of rail will give us a measurement tonnage of somewhere about 
160 or 170 tons; it will nearly double the total tonnage per mile that we shall 
have to send from England. 

2108. Now, what have you to say with respect to the duration of iron sleepers ? 
—I calculated that our iron way, that is the rail supported upon iron brackets, 
could have been furnished at a first cost saving, in the construction, of about 
100 /. per mile ; that the estimated saving, calculating the life of the two materials, 
and taking the very limited life of only 24 years for iron, and from 3 to 12 for 
wood, would vary from 1,345 l. to 4,750/. per mile in 24 years in favour of the 
iron. 

2109. What I want to know is, why you have limited the life of iron which is 
not brought into actual contact with the wheel to so short a period as 24years?— 
I did it more to establish the means of comparison without exaggerating the view 
that I myself took of the subject. I am perfectly convinced that it is much too 
short a life for the iron. 

2110. Have you considered the subject of extending the means of conveyance 
in India by a system of tramroads?—I have heard it spoken of; I believe there 
are notions that such roads might be established, but I have no faith in them ; I 
think the course we are taking arrives at the cheapest road, that it will be 
desirable to lay down as a railroad. I am aware that in some of the manu¬ 
facturing districts, where they had tramroads, they have been gradually con¬ 
verting them into strong efficient railways, and therefore I think it would be bad 

0.61. s 3 economy 


Colonel 
J. P. Kennedy . 


20 May 1 S 58 . 



142 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel economy to start upon that principle. I think the tramroads suggested are 

j. P. Kennedy. rea iiy railways ; I do not think they would lay down an angle iron instead of a 
properly formed rail. 

20 May 1858 . 2111. Do you make rails calculated for the traction by engines?— I am not 

sure that I know the principle they propose to adopt; but the only economical 
principle is a good and efficient railroad. If you attempt to make a cheap rail¬ 
way, it would he like a lady buying the cheapest sort of' calico and sending it to 
a very expensive mantua maker to have it made up. I think nothing can be 
more absurd, or more costly, than making a defective railroad in India ; what you 
ought to make is a railway with the smallest amount of expenditure, but making 
it a perfectly efficient railway with a proper quantity of metal per mile. The prin¬ 
ciple of economy depends upon the engine you put upon your railroad after¬ 
wards ; if you have a heavy traffic, the strongest and best engine you can put upon 
it, if you have a load for it, is the cheapest engine ; hut it would he a dear engine 
if you could not give it a full load. There are many people who discuss the 
merits of small and large engines, as a universal principle, whilst they are both 
applicable in their proper positions; it would be very extravagant to put an en¬ 
gine capable of carrying 500 tons upon a branch line that could only give you, 
say too tons, or 50 tons a day ; and therefore a cheaper class of engine is what 
ought to characterise a branch or small traffic line, and not a defective railway. 

2112. Chairman.\ I have two or three other questions to put to you to com¬ 
plete your evidence ; will you describe to the Committee how your works are 
conducted in India, and what is the organization of the engineering departments 
there?—There are two modes of conducting the works ; one by large contracts, 
and the other by what is called the departmental execution by the officers them¬ 
selves ; ours is the latter, and it is working very well indeed. In selecting our officers 
it is difficult to get gentlemen who have been accustomed to the actual construction, 
and therefore up to this point we have been obliged to select the best gentlemen 
we could, and send them out, and they become practised on the works them¬ 
selves; but I think the departmental execution is the best course, because it re¬ 
tains all the contractor’s profits for the benefit of the shareholders, and it gives 
the company the opportunity of applying its force as it chooses, without being 
restrained or impeded by the operations of bad contractors. It is the cheapest, 
most efficient, and most rapid way of doing the work, and I believe the East 
India Railway Company have latterly adopted that principle. 

2113. Will you describe precisely what your staff consists of; state the num¬ 
ber of assistants which your engineer has, and what reserve he has in case of 
sickness, accident, or other causes, reducing the number of his staff?—We have 
a chief engineer with 28 assistants at present. 

2114. Over what length of line ?—We have not had occasion, at present, to 
appoint more than one chief engineer; about 350 miles have been conceded to 
us, and we conceive that one engineer is quite equal to that extent of line ; 
there are three classes of engineers under him, some of whom are employed in 
the surveying department; then there is one officer placed over every 10 or 
12 miles of road, who has the entire charge of the construction for that distance. 

2115. Every section of 12 miles has a chief officer charged with the superin¬ 
tendence?—The whole distance of 153 miles has been divided into 12 districts, 
so they are not exactly equal distances of 12 miles ; an officer is appointed in charge 
of each, and he conducts all the operations that are requisite. 

2116. What assistance has he under him in the shape of inspectors?—We have 
a few English gaugers, but very few of them. 

2117. Have you employed native agency for the purpose of inspection?—All, 
except the engineers, a few gaugers, and a few of the leading artificers, are native 
agents. 

2118. How are your masonry works inspected ?—That is entirely done under 
the superintendence of the officer in charge of the particular district, and he makes 
his own arrangements for it. 

2119. Has any delay been caused in consequence of officers being laid up by 
accident or sickness ?—We have lost many valuable officers ; some by death, others 
have been obliged to go home from sickness, and some have resigned ; it is a 
grievous thing to lose an officer so trained; we have had some difficulty in 
supplying their places ; there is a little too much impediment in granting us at 
once the assistance of the engineers we require. When an application is made 
for 10 officers, it is perhaps reduced to five. 


2120. In 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 143 

2120. In conducting operations in an unhealthy country, or in a distant 
country, does it not appear consistent with reason that you should be rather over 
than under manned?—I think so; when we take into account the excessive 
financial importance of rapidity, the mere pay of the officers employed, the 
engineers who are essential to rapid construction, ought not to weigh for one 
moment; one engineer to every 10 miles, would amply repay the cost of the 
salaries, and would he a good establishment. 

2121. Do you apprehend that there would be any difficulty in getting freight 
for the quantity of materials annually required to admit of that rapid railway 
progress which you recommend?—The first consideration I would bring before 
you is, that there are 5,312,436 tons of shipping belonging to this country; 
that was all the registered shipping on the 31st December 1856, and it includes 
the Biitish possessions ; but the principle that this question hangs on is the ship¬ 
ping employed in the East Indian and Singapore trade. We find that, in 1853, 
276,621 tons cleared out for the East Indies and Singapore; in the year 1854, 
there were 292,434 tons; in the year 1855 that was increased to 510,171 ; and 
in the year 1 856 to 542,088 ; it more than doubled within two years, and we 
never found that there was any great rise in the freight in consequence of that, 
nor did we find any difficulty in getting ships. 

2122. What inference do you draw from that important fact?—Thatitis utterly 
impossible to conceive any amount of extra freight that railways could throw upon 
the country which would be for one moment an impediment to getting freight. 
It may have this effect, that we may have to pay a little more for our freights, and 
that I have no doubt would be the effect, because we know perfectly well that 
the balance of trade has been homewards instead of out, as we see proved by the 
fact, that there went out in ballast 3,720 tons in 1853; in 1854, 21,512 ; and in 
the year 1855, 29,96.5 ; none went out in ballast in 1856, and therefore I should 
imagine that our freight may have had some effect in equalising what yon call 
the balance of freight to and from India. All the shipowners to whom I have 
mentioned the subject justify me in assuming that there would be no difficulty in 
finding freight for any amount of tonnage we choose to send out. 

2123. Does not the price which the shipowner asks for his freight very materially 
depend upon the chance of a cargo back ?—Yes ; and in considering this ques¬ 
tion you must always be guided by the double voyage ; it is just possible you may 
have to pay the double voyage, and freights home have at times nearly paid the 
double voyage; it is perfectly clear that if a ship goes to Calcutta to bring home 
a cargo, and takes nothing out with her, she must manage to pay the two voyages 
by her cargo home; freight out to Bombay at present would be 1/. 5*., but 
home it would be 2 l . ios., and the double voyage, therefore, would be 
3/. 15s. Shipowners say, if you choose to give 3/. 15s., they do not care whether 
they get a freight home or not; they will take the freight out for you ; to Cal¬ 
cutta it would now be 1 l. 5 s. out, and 3 l. 7 s- 6 d. home, making the double 
freight 4 1. 12 s. 6 d. You may always have a supply of freight, so that it becomes 
a pure question of the amount you are to pay for freight. With respect to our 
railway works, 1 think that our ordinary shipments to India would not much 
exceed 200, or from that to 300 tons per mile, or at the outside 400, assuming 
that we are obliged to carry our timber from England for sleepers, because the 
timber for the sleepers of a mile of railway will come up to about 170 tons measure¬ 
ment; if we choose to adopt iron instead of timber we shall have a large saving 
in our freights. 

2124. Mr. Crawford .] Is it the fact that in the normal condition of things in 
the Indian trade, the rate of freight outwards, as compared with the homeward 
freight, has been almost nominal?—It has been, because there has been a much 
larger quantity of goods coming home than going out. 

2125. Do you not think also that the necessity for sending such a very large 
quantity of coals to India for steam fuel purposes, has had the same effect of 
increasing the rate of freight outwards from this country ?—Yes; I think that 
every ton you send out must tend to the same effect. 

2126. In your view with regard to Indian freight you have not taken into 
account the large number of ships that come up to India from Australia?—I 
have only dealt with what is recorded as the clearances between England and the 
East Indies and Singapore. 

2127. What is the weight of your rail ?—Sixty-two pounds per yard. 

0.61. s 4 2128. Is 


Colonel 

J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1858 . 



144 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel 2128. Is that to be the ruling weight throughout? — It appears to answer, and 

J. P. Kennedy. I do not think we shall alter it until we see good reasons for doing so. 

- 2129. Have you sent out any iron sleepers?—We have been allowed to provide 

«o May 1858 . bearers for 20 miles as an experiment, but they have not yet gone out. 

2130. You draw a distinction between bearers and sleepers?—They are the 
longitudinal principle as opposed to the cross sleeper. 

2131. Is it known by any name in the profession ?—It is called Adam’s girder 
rail, and I have seen it in operation in this country. 

2132. With what results?—I think with very excellent results, there are 
several miles of it being laid down on the London and North-Western line. 

2133. Have you sent out any sleepers from this country?—We have. 

2134. Of what description of wood?—Principally of red Baltic timber, 
creosoted. 

2135. Have you sent out any saturated with chemical solution ?—We have sent 
out nothing but the creosoted sleepers. 

2136. Have you received any account of their working ?—They have been sent 
out so recently that we have had no account of them. 

2137. What process do you go through in obtaining your freights; do you 
employ an agent ?—It is done at our office; we have a general agent in charge of 
our books at the Docks, where we receive everything; the Dock Company are 
responsible for every thing, and we have hitherto made our own arrangements. 
There is some notion of changing that, and giving it to an agent, which I think is 
a very bad course. 

2138. You think it is more desirable to make your own arrangements in each 
particular case, as your necessities require you to do, in the office, rather than to 
employ an agent to do it upon the terms of a contract ?—I think so; if you 
give the monopoly to an agent, it is difficult to know what the consequences 
may be- 

2139. Have you sent out any locomotives ?—We have sent out two ballasting 
engines only ; we have ten now constructing, and two of them we expect will 
leave next month, 

2140. Have you sent any of the materials you have forwarded to India over to 
Surat?—We have tried to get freights to that port, but we cannot accomplish it. 
Large vessels cannot enter the river. 

2141. In the case of the locomotives you are about to ship, you w ill have to 
send them to Bombay ?—Yes. 

2142. By what means will you be able to forward them ?—We shall put them 
into the small craft which trade with Surat. We have received no account of 
any difficulty, so far as the small ballasting engines are concerned. 

2143. What would be the weight of each locomotive?—Our ballast engines 
are about 13 tons; the train engines about 26 tons. They can be taken to pieces 
for embarkation. 

2144. You construct the locomotive in England and put it up at Surat?—Yes. 

2145. Have you any establishment at Surat for that purpose ?—We are just 
making our establishment. 

2146. Colonel Sykes.'] Do you consider that the progress in making the sec¬ 
tions has been satisfactory ?—I think so ; 1 think if we had a sufficient extent, 
say 600 miles in hand, we could have calculated upon opening at the rate of 200 
miles a year. 

2147. As compared with the progress of sections in Europe ? — I think we shall 
do it faster than any sections which have been opened in Europe. 

2148. How do you expect to cross the Nerbudda, the Taptee, and the Mhye? 
—By wrought iron superstructures on cast iron piers. 

2149. Is not the Taptee below the surface of the neighbouring country ; very 
deep ?—'Yes. 

2150. Would it not be something like 60 feet?—Yes, in the centre of the 
river, it will be about that. 

2151. You will have considerable difficulty there?—I think not; our piers 
are of a very simple construction; Mitchell’s patent screw piles. We are very 
particular in getting all the component parts of our various bridges as much as 
may be uniform, so that having established what is a right span for one bridge, 
others shall be multiples of that. 

2152. Mr. Crawford,.] Have you followed any plan in use in this country?— 
It is in use in this country. Putney aqueducts is made upon Mitchell’s pile 

piers 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 145 

piers, as also are several of our railway bridges; there is one not far from the 
Bricklayers’ Arms. 

2153 * Colonel Sykes.~\ Are you aware, that during the monsoon, large trees are 
brought down the Nerbudda, the Taptee, and the Mhve ?—Yes, timber comes 
down. 

21.54. And that there is then considerable risk to piers and any similar kinds of 
structure r—Yes; but the velocity is not very great after all; it is only about 
six miles an hour. J 

21 55 - What would he the length of the bridge across the Nerbudda?—Sixty 
spans of 60 feet each. 

2156. About 3,600 feet?—Yes. 

21 57 - Will the railway be supported by a screw pile of piers ?—On piers made 
of screw piles. 

2158. Is that the longest bridge you will have ?—The longest, with the excep¬ 
tion of that over the Bassein. 

2159. What is the depth of water between Bassein and Gorabunder?— 
About 16 feet, I think, at low water, and at the high tides about 31 feet. 

2160. You would have to provide for the spring tides ?—Of course. 

2161. Mr. Cheetham.~\ Would there not have been a saving of time, supposing 
the Governor-General had been clothed with powers to give sanction without 
referring home?—He did give sanction to our line; and I think if we had been 
able to act upon that sanction we should have had within a very few months 350 
miles open,. 

2162. Looking to the future, would you advise that the Governor-General 
should have powers of sanction without the necessity of referring to the Home 
authorities ?—1 think it would be desirable. I suppose that if the Home autho¬ 
rities are the chief parties in the financial arrangements of the country, they 
must regulate the rate at which they choose to proceed ; but I think the actual 
selection and sanction of the lines might be left to the Governor-General. 

2163. By so doing, less delay would take place in the construction of the line? 
—I think so. 

2164. You stated, I think, that you have never had occasion to come in con¬ 
tact with the Board of Public Works in India?—No; they have nothing to do 
with the railways ; the supervision of the Government is carried on by a special 
officer in each Presidency. 

2165. You have stated in what way, in your opinion, the delays that have 
arisen from that supervision might be avoided?—I think so. 

2166. Mr. T. G. Baring .] With reference to the actual delay which has taken 
place in the construction of your railway, I understood you to say, that that 
delay took place in consequence of the refusal to sanction the line between Surat 
and Bombay?—That was the chief delay. 

2167. Leaving that out of the question, and confining yourself to the line from 
Surat to Ahmedabad, for which sanction was given in April 1855, do you con¬ 
sider that the progress of that line has been such as you anticipated ?—It has been 
quite equal to what I anticipated ; the official correspondence going on between 
the officers, and so on, has been productive of some delay ; but the great delay 
was that in approving of the southern section. 

2168. You say the other difficulties in communications, and so on, have created 
some delay ?—They have. 

2169. What special instances of delay can you give, confining yourself to 
delay in consequence of the powers of Sir James Melvill being limited at your 
Board ?—All our correspondence must go for approval before we can write to our 
agents in India; a month or six weeks’ delay may sometimes be caused by 
that. 

2170. I wish you to give me some instances of delay caused in the construction 
of the railway by the powers of Sir James Melvill being limited? I think, that if 
he had had the power to decide at once, as the agent of the Governnent, all the 
delay caused by the correspondence would have been avoided. 

2171. There would have been less correspondence?—Yes. 

2172. Has there been any actual delay in supplying you with anything that 
was necessary for the construction of the line, in consequence of the want of larger 
powers in Sir James Melvill?—I do not know who are the authors of the dis¬ 
cussion about the timber and iron ; but I think that that, next to the delay in the 
sanction of our line, is what I have to make any comment upon. 

0.61. T 2173- Would 


Colonel 

J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1858 . 



Colonel 

J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1858 . 


146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

2173. Would that discussion prevent, your proceeding with your works as 
quick as you would have done without that discussion?—I think all these dis¬ 
cussions have that effect, because throughout, it delays our making contracts, 
and we do not feel sure of the ground we are going upon. 

2174. Can you say, positively, that there have been any cases in which the 
want of greater powers in Sir James Melvill has prevented your opening your line 
of railway for a month or six weeks?—If he had the power it would make a 
greater difference than a month or six weeks or six months; supposing all this 
extra correspondence were cut off, and the agents of the Company knew they had 
a course of action that they could follow, it would make much more than a dif¬ 
ference of six months in every 100 miles opened. 

2175. If Sir James Melvill had had this power, do you, as an engineer, say that 
you would have been able to open your line in December 1858, instead of on the 
27th of June 1859, as )’ ou contemplate?—It is very difficult for me to say that, 
but I can say that I can take measures to meet the working seasons, if I know that 
by coming to the Board we are to have an immediate answer, and can act upon 
that answer. We cannot take those distinct measures if we are to wait for an 
answer, and if it is expected that each particular letter we write shall receive a 
sanction. 

2176. You cannot state positively that you would have opened your railway 
sooner?—It is not open yet. 

2177. Your date for expected completion is the 27th of June 1859; I asked 
you whether you thouglft the progress satisfactory, and you said £i Yes, according 
to the estimate.” I want now to know whether any actual delay in the construc¬ 
tion has been caused by the want of greater powers in Sir James Melvill?— 
Whether the power given to Sir James Melvill would meet it I do not know, but 
we have had delays in the execution of our surveys, from their not granting a 
ready concurrence with the requisitions our officers have made for better assist¬ 
ance. 

2178. You say there have been cases in which sanction for additional assistance 
being refused that has delayed you ?—Yes ; certainly. 

2179. Can you give to the Committee papers connected with that parti¬ 
cular case?— I think I can, but I am not certain whether that originated here; 
there was a requisition in India for 10 officers, and it was cut down in India to five. 
I recollect having selected a very good officer; and I asked that he should be 
allowed to go out at once, but difficulties were made by the Court of Directors, 
and I lost him because there was not a requisition from India ; it was requisite to 
give him a higher rate of salary than the lowest rate we gave. The general 
principle we have in making gentlemen go out at the lowest rate of salary is a 
good one, but in this particular case the officer in India had been applying for a 
higher class of men ; I found this man ; but I could not get his appointment here. 

. 2! 80. Are you satisfied with the change made in giving Sir James Melvill 
additional powers, as the only thing to be done in this country to obviate delay? 
—I think if it is carried out, and you give him power to decide all things except 
perhaps the establishment of a particular line, or the raising of guarantees,, it 
would relieve us from all the small difficulties in England. 

2181. Turning to India, you stated, 1 think, that the interference in India was 
too minute ?—I think so. 

2182. That interference rests with the Government engineer?—Yes, it grows 
out of the reports of the Government engineer, who is located as the agent over 
our works. 

2183. Can you state any case in which that supervision exercised in India has 
caused delay in the construction of the line?—I do not know that I can say it 
causes much delay, but it disheartens our officers ; a misapprehension of the prin¬ 
ciple under which we are working is taken hold of and sent forward to Govern¬ 
ment, and then some censure comes out upon our officers when they are working 
to the height of their powers, and with great judgment and discretion; that 
disheartens them, and we run the risk of losing our officers. They are going on 
rapidly now, and we have nothing to complain of, because on the extension line 
as fast as we prepare plans for 10 miles, they are sanctioned ; but when we com¬ 
menced our operations they required us to send in 40 miles of plans before they 
would approve of anything. 

2184. Do you think that the Government supervision is of assistance to the 
railway company or not?—I am anxious to see it kept up as an efficient super¬ 
vision ; 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 147 

vision ; I think it is a useful thing for ourselves as well as for every one else, but 
I should like it to be managed with great discretion on the part of the officers. 

2185. The manner in which it is exercised must depend upon the orders from 
home, and upon the individual discretion of the officer ?— Precisely ; I think the 
officer placed there may expedite and stimulate us, and raise the spirit of our 
officers instead of depressing it. 

2186. Who is the Government engineer atBombay ?—Colonel Crawford ; I think 
he is anxious to stimulate things; it is not only dependent upon the chief 
engineer, but he must take his reports from the subordinates at the works. 

2187. Is it possible to guard against those being sometimes a little too sharp? 
— It is very difficult ; very few of them have had experience on the subject. 

2188. The reports must be made to the consulting engineer?—Quite so; he 
must receive the reports in order to give him any idea of the progress. 

2189. At present you say you have no complaints to make of the manner in 
which the supervision is exercised at Bombay?—Not if a little more delicacy were 
observed as to the mode of interference. 

2190. That is in the tone of the reports?—In the tone of the reports, and a 
thorough understanding by the officer of what he is reporting upon before he 
reports. 

2191. Chairman. Do you consider broadly that a military man brought up 
to the military profession, and engaged all his life in military service and works, 
is a proper man, in the full sense of the word, to place as an inspector over the 
works of a civil engineer?—It depends entirely upon whether he has had the 
practice necessary for the carrying on of those works where he is employed; 
if he has not, he is not fitted for it. If you put a man who has not studied the 
subject of railways to inspect railways, he knows little about it until he learns that 
particular branch of his profession. As regards the present education of a military 
engineer, it has a great deal better foundation than nine-tenths of the civil engineers 
have obtained ; there is a distinct examination, and a distinct preliminary quali¬ 
fication, before a military engineer receives his commission, but there is not any 
such ordeal for a civil engineer. 

2192. Is the practice that a military engineer employed in India obtains, in the 
common performance of his duty, an experience which would qualify him for 
inspecting railway works?—I supposed that an officer who commences without 
having had any previous experience would put himself upon the works and see 
them going on ; he would serve his apprenticeship while he was conducting the 
operations. 

2193. From what you have stated, then, I draw this inference, that the Go¬ 
vernment inspector of railway works in India, before he can be competent to 
undertake those works, has to go through an apprenticeship to learn the work 
that he is called upon to superintend, to control, and to regulate ?—Before a 
military engineer is appointed, he ought to be sent to where works are going on, 
and at least serve an apprenticeship there before he is put in a position to 
control. 

2194. Mr. Cheetham.~\ Would it not be better if Government sent out a supe¬ 
rior civil engineer?—That depends upon who you send out; if you send one 
connected with the Permanent Way Company, or some clique in England, that 
would do more harm than good ; a military engineer has none of those tendencies, 
and he has a knowledge of the practice of works generally going on in the 
country. I think, before the officer is appointed, he should be made acquainted 
with the routine of railway work. The officers in India are changed, from their 
first going out, with high civil duties ; in fact the whole of the public works are 
carried on by them. 

2195. Colonel Sykes.] Are you aware that the Court of Directors encourage 
all their Indian officers who come home on furlough, to visit all railway, canal, 
and other works in progress in Great Britain, and that they have their expenses 
paid for so doing ?—I am aware of it. 

2196. The knowledge necessary for the supervision of that kind of works in 
India is probably obtained by those means ?—If the officer appointed happens 
to have had that advantage. 

2197. Do you know that they are not paid their expenses without producing 
certificates from the different railway and other works upon which they put them¬ 
selves?—I am not aware of the precise fact, but I am aware that they are 
encouraged to look over the works. 

0.61. T2 2198. You 


Colonel 

J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1858 . 



Colonel 

J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1858 . 


148 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

2198. You have said that you are anxious to have Government supervision kept 
up ?—I am. 

2199. Is not the delay of reference and correspondence the necessary conse¬ 
quence of that supervision ?—I think not, if the supervision is delegated to a man 
in whom the Government can have absolute confidence; I think then that the 
delegate of the Government may decide upon all ordinary cases ; not upon the 
great questions whether there shall be an extension of a railway, or whether there 
shall be a guarantee. 

2200. Chairman .] Is it not also further necessary that the Government super¬ 
vising officer shall have the confidence of the railway authorities, in order to 
insure co-operation ?—I think it is very important; but I conceive that the case 
we have at present to deal with is precisely one in which the railway companies 
have great confidence in the Government officer. 

2201. Colonel Sykes.] When there are references and correspondence, there 
must necessarily be delay, must there not, and that delay is consequent upon 
supervision ?—It makes a great difference whether we consider the question in 
England or in India. I think the delay arising from correspondence need not 
occur at all in England, and in India I think the Government ought to be satis¬ 
fied with the monthly report of progress. I do not think that there need be any 
impedimental supervisor at all as regards the railways ; and that the monthly 
reports, made upon a proper footing, would insure every object of supervision, the 
Government having a representative in the district to see that the progress reports 
were correct. 

2202. Supposing the supervising officer does not concur in the report as made 
to the Government; or supposing there may be misstatements in it ?—It is always 
open to him to establish the facts. 

2203. And therefore there would be references, correspondence, and delay?— 
Of course, if misstatements are made, they must be verified. 

2204. Mr. Craivford.] Have you a separate and distinct officer under the con¬ 
sulting engineer charged with the superintendence of the line?—There is a deputy 
of the Government consulting engineer appointed over our line. 

2205. What are the reports with regard to which you have to charge a little 
want of delicacy in the manner in which they are made ?—Reports came out 
finding fault where no fault was due, but where great energy was going on. 

2206. Are they of recent date ?—They have been going on while our chief 
engineer has had the very difficult task of organising his departments and training 
his officers to do departmental work, instead of mere inspection. 

2207. How long has he been so employed ?—From soon after the commence¬ 
ment of our works ; about 18 months. 

2208. Chairman .] In handing in your progress report you made this statement 
to the Committee: “I think that our progress ought to be minutely defined and 
closely estimated, and that the progress reports should appear monthly, and 
should be audited by professional auditors monthly. That I look upon as the 
real safeguard of the Government which grants the guarantee, and the share¬ 
holders, who are interested in the result derived from their funds.” Have you 
anything to add to that statement?—In the progress report J. stated the amount 
of balances in the treasury of the Court at certain dates, and I likewise gave an 
estimate of the amount of dividends, and what the interest upon those dividends 
would be. If you look at the large amount of balances in the hands of the Court, 
I think it becomes rather a hardship that the company should be charged with 
interest upon the dividends while those balances stand so largely in the bankers* 
hands. 

2209. They being able, as your bankers for the time being, to employ that 
money, if they think fit, profitably ?—Exactly. 

22to. Mr. T. G. Baring.] Was that part of the terms of the contract ?—The 
contract said nothing about our getting any interest from the bankers. 

2211. Does the contract say that you are to pay interest upon your dividends? 
—It does. 

2212. You say that on the 31st March 1857 there was no less a sum than 
294,000 l. of your money in the hands of the Government; could the Government, 
looking at the amount of work in progress, and the probable demands for the 
current expenses of those works, have employed any considerable portion of that 
money in a remunerative manner to themselves ?—I have no doubt that at all 
events they could have paid the amount of the dividends out of it, because rail¬ 
way 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). i A g 

wav companies have the power of calling up additional capital at any time they 
choose. 1 have no doubt that the balance would have admitted of their paving 
the dividends out of our own money. 


Colonel Thomas Townsend Pears, c. b., called in; and Examined. 

2213. Chairman .] WILL you tell the Committee what you are ?—I am a Major 
in the Madras Engineers, and Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel. 

2214. You have been employed, I believe, as consulting engineer on the part 
of the Government upon the works carried on by the Madras Railway Company? 
I have. 

2215. For what period ?—For nearly five years. 

2216. Since the commencement of the works ?—Yes. 

2217. The sole responsibility of that supervision has, I believe, been on your 
hands ?—Yes. 

2218. Do you consider that the system of Government supervision, as laid 
down under the terms of the contracts, is such as to insure a rapid and satisfactory 
amount of progress on the works?—I consider that the system of Government 
supervision is essential in justice to the people of India, the guarantee being 
dependent upon the revenues of India. 

2219. That is, you claim, on behalf of the guardians of the public purse, that 
amount of supervision which is necessary to guard them from undue expenditure ? 
—Exactly so. 

2220. Do you think it is possible to carry out the amount of supervision con¬ 
sistently with rapid progress on the railway works ?—I certainly do. 

2221. Have you, on particular occasions, found the railway authorities anxious 
and ready to co-operate with you in the carrying out of these great works?— 
They have been always anxious, as anxious as myself, that the work should be 
carried out promptly ; but we have not always agreed upon the best mode of 
doing it. 

2222. And considerable delay, and no small amount of controversy has t here¬ 
fore ensued ?—I do not think any delay, or very little indeed, has arisen, but a 
great amount of controversy. 

2223. The controversy is carried on chiefly, I believe, by correspondence ?— 
Yes. 

2224. Is not that, in itself, a necessary cause of delay ?—In the case we are 
now speaking of, I think not, because, to the best of my recollection, the contro¬ 
versy has had regard to general principles, and relates mainly to the traffic 
operations. 

2225. Do you remember w'hen you suggested a change in the route of the 
Madras line?—I do. 

2226. Will you describe to the Committee, first of all, the grounds of that 
objection?—They were that the line had not been sufficiently examined; that 
there Was evidence of the probability of a better line being found than the one 
which bad been sanctioned. The works which had been begun were suspended; 
and the order was given under the notion that, considering the position of the 
works on either side, it would not cause any ultimate delay in the opening of the 
line. The line had been undertaken as far as a certain point which overlooks the 
valley of the Cauvery, near Salem, and from that point there was a descent in the 
rail by a slight pass from whence the country fell right down to the River 
Cauvery ; in "passing from that pass to the River Cauvery, the line which had 
been adopted ascended again a very lofty plateau, or ridge, near the town of San- 
kerrydroog, and thence descended rapidly to the River Cauvery. I had requested 
before that line was ultimately marked out and sanctioned, that another line to 
the north of the Cauvery, where it appeared we should have one continued un¬ 
broken fall down to the river, might be examined. It may be that my instructions 
were misunderstood, but it was not done; when I came to the ground I found it 
had not been done, and I requested that the works might be stopped in order 
that the examination might be made, which could not take long. The examina¬ 
tion was made by one of the railway officers, a very intelligent young man, who, 
on a cursory examination of it, pronounced it favourable or promising. 

2227. What was his name?—Mr. Brice; if he had reported unfavourably of 
the first view on the ground, I should have said, Very well, go on ; but he reported 
favourably in general terms, and I felt that in the meantime no great loss either 

0.61. T 3 of 


Colonel 

J. P. Kennedy. 


20 May 1858. 


Col. T. T. Pears , 
c. B. 




5o 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Doi. T. T. Peart, 

C-B. 


ao May 1858. 


of time or of money, as I thought, could happen if the other work was suspended; 
this was arranged between myself and the chief engineer in person. As I always 
did, I took care to write to the agent and manager to say what I had done, and 
what I proposed; the agent and manager did not convey my instructions in an official 
form to the chief engineer; he did not forward my letter, and the chief engineer 
did not carry out my wishes; so that some time afterwards, six weeks or two 
months afterwards, I found that nothing had been done, and the works had been 
going on. 

•2228. I thought you said they were suspended?—They were not suspended. 
This placed me in a dilemma, and I then gave a peremptory order that they 
should be suspended, and reported the circumstance fully to the Government; the 
chief engineer was then, I think, going home, and the next senior officer reported 
very strongly against my interfering with the works; but after due consideration, 
the Government, without finding fault with what I had done, said the works had 
better be allowed to go on. 

2229. The result was, that your opinion in regard to the changing and the 
opinion of the engineer were brought into direct conflict, and the opinion of the 
engineer outweighed your opinion, and you yielded as to the propriety of choosing 
that line ?—No, I had formed no opinion ; neither the railway engineer nor myself 
had seen the line; we could foresee that it would probably furnish us with a 
superior line to the other ; I wanted it to be carefully considered, but I formed 
no opinion. If, as I said before, Mr. Brice had said that there was such and 
such impediments, I should have been satisfied, but he reported favourably of it 
on the first view. 

2230. Did you apprehend a saving in the cost of construction, or what were the 
principal objects you had in view in recommending the change?—My chief object 
w as to avoid the bad gradients, which were in opposition to the natural fall of the 
country. 

2231. What were the improvements stated ultimately by the acting engineer, 
which induced you to withdraw’ your proposition ?—It w-as the very large sum of 
money that we thought would be lost, which had been expended on the other 
line ; nothing but that. 

2232. Did his opinion coincide with your own, as to the advantageous gradients 
he would have obtained by adopting your plan ?—I do not think he gave any 
opinion; he merely stated the great loss that would arise, and even that was not 
certain, because we did not know from what point the other line would diverge. 

2233. Admitting that the works were suspended, and that numbers of men 
were thrown out of employ, can you state what was the amount of time lost on 
that occasion ?—I should think about six weeks. 

2234. You have been in the habit of attending carefully and minutely to the 
various details of expenditure upon the line, I believe?—I have. 

2235. I believe you have had many differences of opinion upon various subjects 
with the railway engineers, in matters of minute detail ?—Not very many in matters 
of minute detail, I think. 

2236. Have you seen the evidence that has been given upon the subject of the 
Madras line?—I have seen Mr. Bruce’s evidence. 

2237. Are there any particular points upon which you would like to be examined, 
or are there any statements you would wish to correct?—I should wish to be 
examined on all those points on which Mr. Bruce has spoken in disapprobation of 
my mode of proceeding. 

2238. Colonel «SyA:es.] Did you ever express an opinion adverse to the present 
system of carrying out railways in India ?—Yes, I did ; two years before the rail¬ 
way company was formed. 

2239. When did you express that opinion, and in what terms ?—It was in a 
report, dated 5th March 1851. Speaking of the inconvenience that might arise 
from the Government endeavouring to exercise supervision over a railway company, 
I wrote as follow’s: “ With a Board of Directors seated in London, and all the 
chief executive officers appointed from thence, it is to be feared that the control 
exercised by a Government officer would be little more than nominal ; or, if called 
into active exercise, would prove in too many cases a source of dissatisfaction and 
embarrassment. Under such circumstances, every question relating to the amount 
of expenditure, or to the proceedings of individual servants of the company, would 
become the subject of reference home ; and it seems not too much to prognos¬ 
ticate that arrangements of this nature for the exercise of authority on the part of 

Government, 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 151 

Government, would become almost, if not altogether, inoperative.” That was my 
opinion two years before the railway company was formed. 

2240. With this view of the difficulties attending a Government supervision, 

what system did you propose to adopt when called to the office you now hold ?_ 

With the proper regulation existing between the local government and its officers 
and the railway, it would be difficult in most cases to try to control the proceed¬ 
ings and their expenditure by the direct exercise of authority ; it must be done in 
some cases, but, as a general rule, it would be by the expression of opinions which 
would serve as a guide in all the details of their proceedings. The control in fact 
should be retrospective. In that way only could I produce a report and lay before 
the Government, and if necessary the public, the proceedings both of the railway 
company and their officers, and of the Government. I considered that would be 
a sufficient check over their proceedings. I generally acted upon that principle. 

2241. Have you expressed any opinion upon the same subject since you have 
had experience of the working of the present system?—I have. I have a letter 
which contains other matters, but which has a passage upon that subject written 
after l had been about four years at work, and addressed to the local govern¬ 
ment. 

2242. After what experience ?—After four years’ experience. This is what I 
wrote: “ Looking at the result, I fear, that the system of entrusting the con¬ 
struction and management of our Indian railways to a body of self-elected 
directors in London must be pronounced thus far a failure. The only chance of 
success under such a system is for those directors, in the exercise of their patronage, 
to disregard all personal consideration and private interest, and appoint as their 
representative here a man chosen for his judgment, ability, experience, and reso¬ 
lution. Such a one could not serve under interference from England, and would 
neither need nor find anything but cordial co-operation on the part of the local 
government. Under no other circumstances can the present system prosper, and 
failing this the railway company labour under the peculiar disadvantage of being 
saddled for a given time with every servant they employ, whether he is fitted for 
his post or otherwise. They are not in a position, as Government would be, to 
immediately remove a man (though his only fault be incapacity) by placing him 
in some less onerous, though perhaps equally lucrative post, and getting a better 
qualified man in his place. The best remedy, were it practicable, that I can see 
for this complicated machinery, of which the gentlemen in the House of Commons 
lately spoke, would be to get rid of the Railway Board in London and their 
representative in India, and with the same instruments in other respects working 
under the direct orders of Government, I am satisfied that the work would 
be carried on with 50 per cent, saving of time, and not much less saving in 
money.” 

2243. Chairman.'] Have you not always had a strong opinion that the Govern¬ 
ment ought to have undertaken and to have constructed these works themselves ? 
— I have. 

2244. Colonel Sykes.] You did not mean that the Government should execute 
these works by any particular persons or body of men ; but merely that the 
works should be carried on as any other public work with Government money, 
and under the direct orders of Government ? —Exactly. 

224.5. Did vou always advocate giving the greatest possible publicity to the 
correspondence and proceedings in the railway department ?—I did. 

2246. What was your object in this r—I thought it was the only way to insure 
the proper influence of Government, and to insure fair play and avoid misunder¬ 
standing. 

2^247" Did not the publication of your reports create a feeling of irritation and 
uneasiness in the minds of the railway officers?—I think they did, but they were 
nnrea son able. 

2248. Were you careful that their explanations should be published as well as 
the remarks of the Government ?—I was very careful. 

2249. In remarking on the amount of work done on this or that position of the 
line, and pronouncing it unsatisfactory, did you consider you were censuring the 
engineers in immediate charge?—By no means. I know in some cases he was not 
answerable for it, and I knew in all cases it was not my business to decide who was 
answerable. I felt I was pronouncing on the works of the railway company, and 
it was impossible for any man in my position to say what member of that company 
was answerable for the delay in the works; it was not a mere theory, but an actual 

O.611.. t 4 fact, 


Col. T. T. Pean, 

C. B. 


20 May 1858. 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


15a 


Col. T. T. Pears , fact, as 1 had occasion to know several times, that the officer was not in the least to 
c. b. blame ; I could not say who was to blame. 

- 2250. You say you were anxious that both sides should have their representa- 

20 May 1858. t j ons published ; did it occur that letters from you were published, and that letters 
from the railway officials were not published in the newspapers ?—Not that I am 
aware of. Yes, I must correct that. I had nothing to do with the publication in 
the newspapers, but there was one instance, I believe, in which papers went up on 
two different occasions, and one set of papers appeared in the newspapers ; but 
the others which went up subsequently did not appear. I have carefully abstained 
from having anything to do with publications in the newspapers ; I never alluded 
to the subject; it was the chief secretary’s duty, and amongst the multifarious 
duties he had to perform he did not pay much attention to it. One letter from the 
chief engineer did not get into the newspapers, but whether it was placed on the 
table, or not, I do not know ; the newspaper reporters might be responsible for 
not having taken the paper. 

2251. Was any explanation given of why it did not appear?—No explanation 
was asked for. 

2252. Can you account for it?—I cannot. 

2253. Ckairman.~\ Are you aware, of your own knowledge, by whom the selec¬ 
tions from those papers were made, and furnished to the editor’s room P—I am 
not certain, but I believe the system was this, that the secretary to the Govern¬ 
ment in whose department the papers were, was in the habit of laying before the 
council an abstract statement of papers he proposed to lay upon the reporters’ 
table; there is a room in the Government House to which the newspaper reporters 
have access. 

2254. Colonel Sykes.] Do you think the papers were designedly omitted?— 
Certainly not. There is not the slightest chance of the secretary having given 
it a thought; it might have been on the table, but omitted by the reporter; it 
was put into the newspaper afterwards. 

22.55. Chairman .] The papers were thrown upon the table, and it was at ihe 
option of the editors to select such portions as they thought fit for publication ?— 
Entirely so. 

2256. Colonel Sykes.] Had you reason to think that in any case the railway 
official was not to blame?—I had. 

2257. There were two modes in which your proceedings were made public ; 
one by annual reports, the other by the documents getting into the newspapers. 
How was the publication in each case managed?—That by annual report was 
under my own supervision. I had nothing to do with that by the newspapers ; 
that was under the chief secretary’s orders. 

2258. How were the newspapers in Madras, generally, disposed towards the 
Government ?—They were all generally hostile to the Government, and there is 
one particularly adopted by the railway officials to advocate their cause against 
the Government. 

2259. Was there not a complaint made by memorial or otherwise, that ex 
parte statements were thus published ; and how was that complaint met ?—There 
was a memorial signed by 15 or 16 engineers, containing various complaints 
against the supervision of the Government; and there was one of the paragraphs 
to the effect that the Government officers had been in the habit of making public 
the reports to the Government, but withholding their replies. This memorial 
was sent home without my knowing anything about it, and it was several months 
before I observed it in the newspapers in Madras. I immediately obtained per¬ 
mission to call upon the manager to ask these 15 or 16 gentlemen to point 
out one case in which such a thing had occurred; they made some objection 
to answering this letter for some time; a considerable delay took place, and 
ultimately they gave an answer, and it appeared that among the whole of them 
there was not one case forthcoming; and the only case that was mentioned to 
substantiate that very serious charge, was a letter found in the report for 1855, 
whereas the engineer thought it ought to be in the report of 1854, it having 
fallen there in due course, according to the system I had adopted. 

2260. Chairman.'] Have you in your possession a copy of that memorial?— 
No. 

2261. Can you tell us where we can find a copy of it?—I should think in 
the railway company's office. 

2262. Who 



153 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

2262. Who publishes these reports for the Government?—They pass to the 
Government press under my supervision, and then they are made over to a book¬ 
seller to dispose of in any way he likes. 

2263. Mr. Cranford.] Those reports of the Government, you say, are fur¬ 
nished by you to the Government?—Yes. 

2264. And are not supplied from any other quarter ?—No. 

2265. So far, then, as concerns those reports, the consulting engineer is respon¬ 
sible for the contents of them in his department?—Yes. 

2266. Colonel Syfces.] Since the works were executed without the intervention 
of contractors, it was necessary to make advances of money from time to time to 
the engineer. What system did you establish for regulating the amount to be 
advanced, and the mode of handing over the money?—I had some trouble in the 
first instance, in getting all the facilities that I wished to see afforded to the 
railway company’s officers, to get their money. I managed to keep the whole 
matter out of the hands of the accountant-general and out of the audit-office ; that 
was a matter of some difficulty, for they could not understand any money coming 
out under the Government without its going through their hands. I managed that 
the agent should get his advances upon orders on the Treasury, countersigned 
by myself; then, after a warm controversy with the accountant-general, who 
opposed it, I got the Government to sanction the money being lodged in the 
talook kutcheries, so that the various engineers along the line were supplied with 
bills by the Government on those kutcheries, from whence they drew the money 
as they wanted it. 

2267. Did you ever refuse or delay the advance asked for?—I did so several 
times in consequence of the non-receipt, for instance, of workshop accounts ; and 
on some occasions, in consequence of the reports sent in of the state of their 
funds not being prepared in accordance with instructions that had been repeatedly 
given. 

2268. Do you think that on those occasions the works could have been re¬ 
tarded by a want of money ?—I think not, except in the case of advances being 
withheld from the workshops. I am not quite sure of that. 

2269. Mr. T. G. Baring.'] Did you consult with the Company’s agent about 
those advances ?—Very often. 

2270. What was his opinion?—It was that he had no power to get documents 
sent up with more expedition, or in any more complete manner; he often com¬ 
plained that the officers subordinate to him could not make the things out in a 
more satisfactory manner. 

2271. Colonel Sykes.] The want of the documents occasioned delay?—The 
want of the necessary information. 

2272. Chairman.] Were you aware, and if you were, did you approve of the 
mode by which the current expenses of the railway were paid ; I mean with regard 
to the payment of labourers* wages, and matters of that kind.' 1 —I did not know' 
anything about it; but all I did know generally was, I thought, very well 
managed. 

2273. The system adopted by the railway officials, the payment by tickets 
every night which were convertible into cash at any time or at the end of the 
week, rendered it necessary that money should be forthcoming, and in the hands 
of the railway officials, to carry on their works ?—Always; and it was my great 
desire that they should always have money in their hands; in fact, the wmrk 
could not be carried on without it, but the supervision would be entirely defeated 
if the officers of the railway company did not comply with our demands in the 
shape of returns, and then were able to say that because they had not got the 
money we were delaying the works. 

2274. Is it your opinion that if the railway officials had made their calculations 
accurately in order to forestal probable expenses, they might always have had a 
sufficient sum of mouey in hand?—No doubt; during some four or five yeais 
these reported deficiencies have only occurred on two or three occasions; and on 
all those occasions, whatever they may be, the Court ol Directors, w’hen referred 
to, have decided that the railway company’s officers were to blame; although I 
cannot positively say so, I believe their own Board has decided the same thing. 

2275. Colonel Sykes.] When large advances were thus made to the agent, how 
were they disposed of by him?—I did not consider it my business, except pri¬ 
vately, to inquire much into that, because I had told him he was responsible for 

the distribution of the money. „ TT 

o.fi 1. U 227b. Had 


Col. T. T. Pears 


20 May 1858. 



154 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


T. T. Pears. 2276. Had you any check over the balance in case of the sudden removal of 

- the chief engineer by death or otherwise?—I believe there was no check, or at 

May 1858. least a very imperfect one; the whole of the large advances to the chief engineer 
of whose integrity there could not be the shadow of a doubt, amounted to some¬ 
thing like 15,000/. or to 20,000/., which was on his responsibility and in his 
keeping ; I wrote to the agent and suggested that he should ask for monthly 
reports, and obtain a statement of all the cash balances in the district engineers* 
cash chests ; he wrote back that he would do it, but it was never done; and when 
the chief engineer was obliged to leave the country from extreme ill-health, 
brought on in the performance of his duty, it took about eight months before 
they could forward, for the information of the Government, a statement of the 
amounts or the distribution of the cash balances; there seemed to be some con¬ 
fusion and great difficulty in finding out where they all were. 

2277. What amount of balances do you suppose the chief engineer ever had 
on hand at one time?—I should think he may have had two lacs of rupees. 

2278. Twenty thousand pounds?—Yes; I have no distinct recollection of 
that. 

2279. When you desired, in the name of the Government, to have anything 
done, did you communicate direct with the chief engineer or through the agent ? 
—1 had a great deal of direct communication with the chief engineer, but I was 
very careful in all matters of any importance to communicate with the agent also, 
for there was a great deal of jealousy. 

2280. Did you find your instructions verbally expressed generally attended to? 
-—I think thereWas an unreasonable degree of sensitiveness about the suggestions 
from the military engineer, and they were not, I think, generally attended to ; 
but if they were of any importance, I placed them in the form of an order, and 
sent them through the agent. 

2281. Do you recollect any particular instance in which your views and 
suggestions, either verbal or in writing, were disregarded ?—I can recollect a 
few of no particular importance, but they may be sufficient to show that sug¬ 
gestions were made, and that conveyed in a merely verbal way, I was not sure 
that they would be attended to. I recollect frequently suggesting a particular 
measure for the protection of the slopes of the banks running through what we 
call the tanks or reservoirs of water, that they should be protected with rough 
stone, but it was never done; I dare say it will have been done by this time, 
because they have found the effect of the water very injurious. Then I suggested 
that the down stream opening of the various bridges should be protected by rough 
stone flooring ; I often talked about that, but it was never done up to the time I left 
India. I suggested on one occasion, but I think this was in writing, that a bridge 
which it was proposed to build on the skew, merely going over the common road, 
should be built square and the road turned, or that it might be more easily built, 
and much more expeditiously ; that was not done, and the bridge, although only 
of one arch, took a long time to build. I objected also to laterite blocks being 
used, but it was persevered in. I got the Government to sanction an experiment 
upon about three quarters of a mile, but they were all taken up afterwards. I should 
not have thought it necessary to mention all these things, but that I observed 
that, in a previous day’s examination, it has been stated I made no personal 
suggestions. It is hardly possible that I should walk and ride about on friendly 
terms for three or four years with a railway engineer, and not make some 
suggestions. 

2282. Did the laterite fail from decomposition ?—No; it would not stand the 
shock of the engines. 




SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 155 


Jovis, 3 “ die Junii, 1858 . 


MEMBERS PRESENT. 

Honourable H. G. Liddell. 

Mr. A. H. Baring. 

Mr. T. G. Baring. 

Mr. C. Bruce. 

Mr. Campbell. 


Mr. Cheetham. 
Mr. Crawford. 

Sir J. Elphinstone. 
Mr. G. Glyn. 

Col. Sykes. 


Hon. H. G . LIDDELL, in the Chair. 


Colonel Pears called in ; and further Examined. 

2283. Chairman.'] WE have had a good deal of evidence from the acting 
engineer, Mr. Bruce, upon the subject of contracts. I wish to ask you, first of 
all, whether the native of India, in Madras especially, understands the precise 
nature of a contract r—I have no doubt that a great many of them do, because 
tney are very much in the habit of entering into contracts at Madras. 

2284. I am speaking more particularly of the inland parts of Madras. Do the 
natives possess, in the first place, the capital necessary for undertaking contracts 
of an extensive character ?—1 here are certain rich men among them who are 
found to undertake contracts. 

2285. Are there many men of that class ?—I should say, not many; there are 
to be found in the large towns, such as Madras, Velore, and Salem, men of con¬ 
siderable wealth. 

. 2286. In the rural districts they are scarce?—They are all poor men. 

2287. Have you often found the native contractor failing in the fulfilment of 
his contract when made r—Constantly. 

2288. It is a very common occurrence?—Very common, but chiefly with the 
poor contractors in small affairs. 

2289. Is it not the case that the native has some indescribable objection to 
signing a document, such as a tender for a contract; has he not some feeling 
about putting his name to paper?—I think that the poor and uneducated among 
them have that feeling, hut it is by no means an uncommon thing for men of that 
class to enter into contracts with the officers of the Public Works Department, 
for instance. 

2290. I believe you were universally in favour of the system of sealed tenders 
to be delivered, and to be submitted to the sanction of the Government before the 
contract is made?—In the article of sleepers, but nothing else. 

2291. You did not insist upon that mode in regard to the supply of other 
materials : brick, lime, and other things of that, sort ?—No. 

2292. You have allowed them to be supplied by the engineer?—Yes. 

2293. Will you state your reasons for your strictness in enforcing a system of 
tender in regard to the supply of timber lor sleepers?—In the first place, there 
was little or no analogy between the supply of sleepers, and bricks or lime, 
required in small quantities along the line for each particular work ; they were 
obtained in small quantities generally in the immediate neighbourhood, but the 
sleepers on the other hand had to be obtained out of the forests. I consider that, 
in the first place, the engineers had nothing to do with the supply of materials 
for the permanent way; and next, that having their hands full, they should be 
occupied with their own duties. I thought the only wav to open up the forests, 
was to induce men of capital and position to enter into contracts, as indeed, at 
one time they did, and so to bring their influence to bear in opening up roads, 
and in opening up the forests; that was the only way in which I thought it could 
be done. 

2294. Which mode do you think was calculated to create the greatest amount 
of competition among the native undertakers of contracts, the system of tender, 

0.61. T 7 2 or 


Colonel Fears. 


3 June 1858. 






MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel Pears. 


3 June 1858, 


1.^0 


or the punctual and certain payment of ready money for the supplies as they were 
brought in?—Certainly, the system of tender. 

2295. Does your experience enable you to state positively that the greatest 
amount of competition, the lowest prices, and the best articles have been obtained 
by that system?—No, it is very difficult to get any competition at all in India; 
but I considered, particularly at Madras, and in the large towns, that we had a 
sufficient number of men of capital who had become accustomed to the system 
of competition, and who would be found to take to it in the supply of large 
quantities of sleepers. 

2296. In theory that is doubtless correct, but in practice have you found that 
it has been carried out ?—The theory I proposed had never been acted upon from 
the first moment. 

2297. How have the sleepers been obtained ?—By a sort of half system of 
advertising by contracts, but not adhering to the sealed tenders ; I believe that in 
no instance has the system I have proposed been acted upon. The practice was 
to advertise for sealed tenders, and after they had come in to wait for others ; 
there was the usual backdoor for the natives to come in after the tenders had 
become known, and so the competition which I desired to see established was 
never encouraged as it ought to have been. 

2298. Is not the greatest competition created by inviting the largest number of 
tenders ?—Yes ; but when the natives understood that the tenders were not 
final, and that the lowest would not necessarily be accepted, they would wait to 
see what the tenders were, and then make their own bargains. 

2299. Your system of tender in itself is a system involving a certain amount 
of delay, when each has to be subjected to your sanction as the representative of 
the Government; is not that so ?—There is delay in the first instance, but if it 
leads to the employment of men of capital, who are ultimately to carry out the 
work, there would be less delay in the end. That is my firm belief. 

2300. Have you found that that system has worked well ?—In the first place, 
I say that the system had never been fully carried out, and therefore it cannot be 
condemned as not having worked well. On several occasions I have declared 
my conviction to the Government that the system, as they carried it out, could 
not work well. We tried another system, we tried whether we could purchase 
the sleepers through the engineers themselves. 

2301. Was that by payment upon the spot ?—No, they sent their reports upon 
sleepers, and their bills were submitted and passed by the agent and myself. 
That was tried for 14 months, but it was admitted by the agent to be an utter 
failure. The engineers had bought between 7,000 and 8,000 sleepers in the 
whole time, while those that remained of the contractors who had entered into 
engagement were to a far larger amount; the result was, and I think it was due 
in a great measure to our having adopted that system, that the tenders fell off 
after that. I think it was an exceedingly bad system that the engineers and their 
subordinate officers, whose duty it was to inspect the sleepers, should have the 
purchasing of them, and should be in a position to declare as they did that the 
contract system was a bad one. A native contractor was not likely to come 
into the field when he knew that that was the feeling among the engineers and 
their people. I will state one thing as the basis of my views; the great diffi¬ 
culty we have to contend with is to prevent corruption among all our native 
subordinates ; if they have an opportunity you will find collusion between them 
and the people who come to sell. They keep down the supply, and consequently 
keep up the prices. 

2302. Is that found, in your experience, in the Government service ?—Cer¬ 
tainly. 

2 3°3- Do you not think the railway company’s servants are perfectly com¬ 
petent to protect themselves against these practices ?—I should think they would 
find it exceedingly difficult; everyone else does. 

2304. As a Government officer, what particular power do you possess over 
the natives to enforce fair dealing more than anyone else ?—We cannot, enforce 
it. We looked to the system of tender to prevent it, and to bring inde¬ 
pendent men into the market who would not be called upon to conciliate native 
servants. 

2 3 ° 5 - If these independent men did not exist, what then ?—I do not see how 

the 



157 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

the thing is to be done. It will be found that at the very time that the engineers Colonel /w. 

were so anxious to purchase their own sleepers in the district of Malabar, con-- 

tractors were offering 20,000 or 30,000 sleepers at a time. Some of the very 3 June 1858. 

best kind of men, Parsees, men of capital and enterprise, came forward at that 

very time. The argument the agent used against encouraging this class of men 

was this, that all they did was to employ sub-contractors, and, therefore, that there 

was no use in the railway company employing them; they were the very class we 

wanted, men who would employ sub-contractors. 

2306. They were only to be found in Madras, were they ?—On the Malabar 
coast; we had men of a different kind at Madias, and I have no doubt that they 
would be found at Salem and other places. 

2307. I believe the Parsee is the most honourable and active native contractor 
in India r—-I should think he is about the most enterprising and industrious man 
they have in India. 

2308. What is your objection to fixing the price to be given for the sleepers, 
stating the qualities of wood which in your opinion are the best calculated for 
the purpose, and giving the railway companies’ officers the power to purchase 
where and how they thought fit?—The same reason that I have given for advo¬ 
cating the adoption of the contract system ; I wish to confine them to that, and 
I do not think it would be a good plan to name any price. On the contrary, when 
it was proposed to me that the engineers should buy their own sleepers,* I said, 

“ Let the experiment be made, but do not fix any prices ; they will do the best they 
can.” If I had named any price, there would have been an end to any fall in the 
price, whereas all we wanted was to get the forests well opened, and then the 
prices would fall. 

2309. How do you explain the fact, which I think has been stated in evidence, 
that the railway engineers succeeded in obtaining sleepers at one rupee a piece, 
which, under the contract system, would have cost two rupees ?—I do not remem¬ 
ber that occurring, and I cannot explain it ; but I am satisfied that it could never 
happen on a large scale: sleepers or any other supply would be procured much 
more economically by way of competition than by direct bargain. 

2310. The forests are the property of the Government of India, are they not? 

—Not always ; they very often belong to zemindars, and men of that kind. I 
suppose the Government have a proprietary right over a vast number of them. 

2311. Describe to us the nature of the forests in Madras: are they composed 
of large old timber, or what is the character of the wood?—There is a great deal 
of very old timber; in the whole of the Malabar division, they have a great 
quantity of remarkably fine timber, and a great deal of teak. 

2312. Colonel Sykes."] Below the Ghauts?—On the side of the Ghauts. In 
the Salem district, the timber is small, but fine ; there are hard woods and remark¬ 
ably durable, but there are no very lofty trees. 

2313. Chairman.] They are large enough for the purpose of sleepers?—Quite 
sufficient; there is an enormous supply if we could only get at it. 

2314. What is the nature of the woods in the neighbourhood of Pal Ghaut?— 

There is a great deal of teak and various native woods, the names of which I do 
not recollect. 

2315. Are there many different descriptions of timber all over the Madras Pre¬ 
sidency, admirably adapted for railway construction ?—Yes. 

2316. In the Government forests, what are the regulations as to the cutting of 
timber?—Until very lately, there lias been no precaution taken to preserve the 
timber; within the last two years, they have appointed an officer called a conser¬ 
vator, but until that time, I think very little care was taken of the timber; and 
every kind of wood, even the teak, which was very valuable, was destroyed in 
the most wanton manner. 

2317. Colonel Sykes. To what area do you mean that remark to apply ?—To 
Madras. 

2318. Chairman.] Do I understand that anyone who wanted a load of timber 
might have gone into the forest and cut it?—In some places, if it was the pro¬ 
perty of a zemindar, you would have been interfered with, but I think that with 
regard to Government forests, you might probably have done it without inter¬ 
ference. I cannot speak of that from any personal experience. The fact is, if I 
had anything to do with public works, I have generally sent into the forest when 
I wanted any wood. 

0.61. u 3 2319. Do 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


is 8 


Colonel Pears. 
3 June 1858. 


2319. Do I understand that in forests, which are the property of zemindars, 
the regulations are much more strict ?—So far as I have heard of them, but not 
being a revenue officer, I am not very conversant with these things. I have 
heard of disputes in the law courts, and I think the zemindars are much more 
strict than the Government. 

2320. Mr. Crawford .] You stated that it was only within a very recent period 
that a conservator of forests had been appointed on the part of the Govern¬ 
ment?— Madras I alluded to. 

2321. Was not Mr. Fell, an officer of the Bombay Government, for several 
years conservator of the forests on the Malabar coast ?—I remember there was 
such a man, but I thought he was there to provide timber for the use of the 
Bombay Government ; he had no connexion with the Madras Government. 

2322. Was he not subsequently succeeded by Dr. Gibson ?—In the Bombay 
forests, I think, he was. 

2323. Will you state your experience as an engineering officer employed under 
the Madras Government ?—I have been 32 years in the service ; I have been 
five years employed on military duties, or partly military and partly civil; as 
being in command of the sappers, I have had a good deal to do with civil works. 
.All the other parts of my service have been in the Public Works Department in 
various parts of the Presidency. 

2324. Had you been employed on any large works analogous in their character 
to railway construction ?—In everything of the same kind ; making roads and 
bridges has been my employment all my life, and that is very much the same 
thing as with railways. 

2325. Dad you given your attention to railway construction before you entered 
upon the office of consulting engineer ?—Yes, in England ; I had been some short 
time employed on railways in England. 

2326. Will you state to the Committee what experience you had gained in 
England ?—I was at home under the authority of the Government, and, with their 
assistance, I visited various works during the time that I was at home ; and, in 
fact, I did everything 1 could, by visiting railways, to make myself acquainted 
with their construction as far as I could. 

2327. Was that in reference to the construction and working of railways, or 
did you extend your inquiries into the mechanical engineering of railways?— 
Not much into mechanical engineering, but into the construction and working of 
railways. 

2328. Were you in India at the time that the scheme for the Madras Railway 
Company was first broached?—Yes, I think I was; it was broached some years 
before the company was formed, I believe ; but I cannot say for certain whether 
I was actually in India. 

2329. Was the construction of a railway to Madras a matter of much public 
interest and discussion ?—I should say not much ; but we have not a veiy large 
public ; there were several public men who took an interest in it, and formed a 
committee two or three years before the company vvas formed. 

2330. Did you take any part in the proceedings yourself?—I was a member of 
the committee, I believe, and also was employed wrth a brother officer to report 
upon some part of the line from Madras to Arcot. 

2331. Had you formed any particular or precise views of your own as to the 
mode in which the railways should be constructed ?—Yes ; I thought they should 
be constructed directly under Government for the benefit of the people. 

2332. It was your opinion that the railways should be constructed with 
Government money, and should be a work in the Department of Public Works? 
—We had no particular Department of Public Works then, but I thought it 
should he constructed by Government with the Government money for the benefit 
of the people. I never gave a thought as to whether it should be placed in 
the Department of Public Works, or whether it should be a department of itself. 

2333. Your opinion was, that it should be constructed without the interference 
of the public?—Quite so; but the interference of the public would be exer¬ 
cised, as it always is, on the Government through the press, and a very good 
thing it is. 

2334. But without any active interference 011 the public, such as forming a 
company to supply funds for the construction of the railway?—Without any 

interference 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


59 


interference of the kind ; but I think I stated in one of my reports that if the 
Government did not like that, it would be a good plan for the Government to 
construct the works, and then to allow them to be worked by a company, if 
they did not like working them themselves. 

2335. What do you conceive to be the relation subsisting between the 
Government and the company as at present constituted?—I think the Govern¬ 
ment is called upon, in consequence of its having guaranteed this interest on 
the capital, to control the proceedings and the expenditure of the railway 
company as laid down in the contract, which I think is very clear. 

2336. Do you then consider the railway company in its relation to the 
Government as a body acting in subordination to the Government, or as an 
independent corporation engaged with the Government in carrying out a specific 
work under a contract?—I consider them as a body acting in subordination to 
the Government; in fact, that they were merely agents to carry out their inten¬ 
tions ; and that was the expression of the Honourable Court of Directors itself. 

2337. You look upon them as acting under the Government, subject to their 
control in everything, almost in the same way as a department of the Govern¬ 
ment?— I cannot say that, because in a department of the Government all indi¬ 
vidual agents are servants of the Government. I have argued always that the 
Government has to do with the railway company or their representative, and not 
with any of their servants, which makes a great difference. 

2338. The Government of Madras acted as the agent of the Court of Directors 
in this country ?—Yes. 

2339. And the railway agent at Madras acted as the representative of the 
railway company in this country?—Yes. 

2340. So that, in point of fact, the chief authority in each case was in this 
country ? —Yes. 

2341. And the active parties in India were merely agents acting for the 
principals abroad ?—Exactly so. 

2342. Are vou aware of the extent to which the funds for the construction of 
this railway have been provided from Indian capital?—I should think very little 
indeed. 

2343. Is there any department in the office of the railway company at Madras 
for the registration of shares ?—No. 

2344. There is no buying and selling of the shares of the railway company, so 
far as you know, recognised in Madras?—No. 

2345. If a party in Madras purchases a share in a railway company of another 
party residing there, his transfer must be completed and effected in this country ? 
— I think so. 

2346. The other day you expressed an opinion unfavourable to the result, so 
f ar ~as you had been made acquainted with it, in the system under which railways 
were constructed in India?—So far as I am acquainted with it. 

2347. You had, in the first instance, expressed that opinion in a report which 
you made to the Government ?—Yes. 

2348. You stated, in answer to a question, that after four years experience you 

adhere to that opinion ?—I do. _ T i? .. , ,, 

2349. You say, in the same answer, “ Looking at the result, I fear that the 
system of entrusting the construction and management of our Indian railways to 
a body of self-elected directors in London must be pronounced, thus far, a 
failure.” Is that your opinion still ?—Yes. 

2350. Is it an opinion you entertain in reference to the Madras Company 
alone, or to the companies who are constructing railways in other parts .—My 
opinion is formed chiefly in reference to the Madras Railvvay; but I do not think 
the other railways have made the progress they ought to have done. 

2351. Is your opinion upon the point of failure referable only to this question 
of progress ?—Expense also. 

2352. You conceive that, under the present system, as to expense and pro¬ 
gress, and method of constructing the railways in India, through the intervention 
of a public company, are a failure ’—Certainly, so far as we have gone. I do 

not know what it may be hereatter. . , , 

2353. Have you made yourself acquainted continuously with the progress 

0.61. u 4 


Colonel Pears . 


3 June 1858. 



Colonel Pears. 
3 June 1858. 


160 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

with the cost of expenditure, and with the circumstances generally of other rail¬ 
way companies in India ?—No. 

2354. Then how can you express an opinion?—I spoke with regard to the 
Madras Railway. 

2355. I understood you to state that your opinion applied to the railway 
system generally, including the undertaking of the East Indian Railway Company 
to Calcutta, the Great Indian Peninsula, in Bombay, and all the railways ?—By 
no means. I observe of the others, that I have no means of knowing anything 
further, except that they do not appear to have made the progress they ought to 
have done. 

2356. Upon what do you form that opinion ?—The length of time they have 
been engaged on the railways. 

2357. Do you think you are in a position to express such a decided opinion 
as that upon a mere superficial view of the extent of time occupied on the 
works?—Yes; I think any man can form an opinion, if he knows anything of 
the country. 

2358. Do you know anything of the country through which the East Indian 
Railway passes ?—I know the Bengal country. 

2359. Do you know the country over which the East Indian Railway passes ?—I 
have been over the country. 

2360. Do you know the course of the line from Calcutta to Mirzapore ?—I do. 

2361. Have you been over the line?—I have not been over the whole 
distance. 

2362. Do you know the general character of the works upon that line between 
Calcutta and Rajmahal?—I have not been as far as Rajmahal. 

2363. You do not know whether the East Indian Railway Company, with respect 
to that part of the line I have mentioned, are constructing a railway over a plain 
level surface, or over a tract of country where they have considerable engineering 
difficulties?—1 know that in some parts they have considerable engineering 
difficulties. 

2364. Do you know the character of the country, for instance, between Raj¬ 
mahal and Calcutta?—I believe the chief impediments there are the rivers. 

2365. Do you know the character of the rivers?—They are broad rivers with 
sandy beds, I have heard. 

2366. Do you know the dimensions of any of the bridges in the course of con¬ 
struction there at this moment ?—I do not know exactly, but I believe they are 
very large. 

2367. Do you know whether they have experienced any difficulty in providing 
themselves with materials for the construction of the bridges ?—I do not know. 

2368. Then do you ihink you have sufficient materials before you upon which 
to form an opinion in regard to the question of progress, and to state positively 
that the system under which the railways have been constructed has been a 
failure?—I do not offer any opinion as to the cause of the failure ; I say that the 
time occupied has been much longer than expected, and as it appears to me might 
have been expected. 

2369. Expected by whom?—By the public, and by themselves, I believe. 

2370. Do you think that the public is in a position to form a correct opinion 
upon it?—I do not know. 

2371. Chairman.'] Do you consider that they have been a failure in point of 
time and in point of construction, that is, that the works have been inefficiently 
constructed, or what is the precise meaning that we are to attach to the word 
“failure”?—I allude particularly as to the time. There were great complaints 
of delay in carrying on the works, and it seemed to me, and seems to me now', 
that there would be much less delay if they had been carried on directly under 
the authority of the Government, that what is generally understood to be a 
complicated machinery by the railway company in connexion with the Govern 
ment. 

2372. Have not the Madras Government expressed an opinion that the works 
have been carried on in a space of time that would bear favourable comparison 
with other works?—Only once, I think. 

2373. Mr. Crawford.] You refer to the system of entrusting the construction 
and management of railways iu India to a body of self-elected directors in 
London. Will you explain what you mean by that?—I alluded to the formation 

of 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). ]6i 

of a company by men who may be called self-elected ; but what I meant to say Colonel Pears. 

was, that men employed in spending public money should be men appointed by - 

the Government. 3 June 1838. 

2 374 - When you say the money is public money, you must be aware that this 
money is provided out of the pockets and resources of private individuals entirely ? 

“ ^ ; but it seems to me that it is as much public money as money raised, on 

loan is. 

2375. Although it remains at the risk of the shareholders?—There is no risk 
in it that I can see. 

2376. You talk of Indian railways; I want to know' distinctly fiom you 
whether you apply the charge which is conveyed in that answer of yours to rail- 
ways'gerurally ?—I do not understand what charge you mean. 

2377. In the answer to which I refer, you say, “ the only chance of success 
under sucb a system is, for these directors, in the exercise of their patronage, to 
disregard all personal considerations and private interest, and appoint as their 
representative here a man chosen for his judgment, ability, experience, and reso¬ 
lution.” In the former part of your answer, you have stated that in your opinion 
you consider the system to have proved a failure; and you proceed then to say, 
that the only chance of success is from the exercise of a certain judgment on the 
part of the railway company in the performance of their duty, which they did not 
exerciser—I did not observe that they had not exercised it. 

2378. You say that the only chance of success is from the system of disregard¬ 
ing all personal considerations and private interest?—Yes. 

2379. Were those considerations absent on the part of the directors of the 
railway companies already constituted ?—I am not aware that they w ere. 

2380. Will you explain to the Committee what is the alternative you put in 
the answer?—It was merely meant to refer to the extreme importance of selecting 
men possessing the necessary qualifications, w ithout any reference to any other 
consideration, or any personal feeling towards them. 

2381. Do you conceive that the directors of the Madras Railway Company 
have disregarded personal considerations and private interest, or have they kept 
those interests in view ?—How far they have been actuated by those feelings 
I cannot tell. So far as I know, they have always been desirous of getting good 
men ; lam sure they have. 

2382. You do not intend, in this answer, to imply anything like an impu¬ 
tation upon the directors of the Madras Railway Company?—I do not. 

2383. Or upon any of the raihvay companies, with respect to the manner in 
which they have exercised their selection in the appointment of their officers ?— 

Certainly not. 

2384. In the same answer you repeat your opinion, that if the. Railway Board 
and their representatives in India were dispensed with, and the work placed 
under the direct orders of the Government, the work could be carried on at 50 
per cent, saving in time, and not much less saving in money. Do you not think 
that a considerable saving would be equally the consequence if the railway com¬ 
panies were left free to carry on their works as they thought best?—I do not 
think under any circumstances, even with the railway unconnected with the 
Government, that the plan of having the chief management in England could 
be favourable to expeditious work. I think the great evil is having the chief 
government in England. 

2385. Do you not think that as the funds for the construction of the railways 
are found practically to be obtained only in this country, it follows as a matter of 
absolute necessity that the control of the railway undertakings should remain in 
this country in the hands of those who find the money?—I think, in the first place, 
that one great evil is that the funds are obtained in this country, and in the next 
place, I do not see that it necessarily follows that the chief agents in carrying out 
the work should be in England, because the funds are supplied there; but it is a 
matter I do not feel competent to form an opinion on ; financial men in England 
will know more about it than I do. 

2386. With reference to the functions of the representative of the railway com¬ 
pany in India, he has of course to superintend the execution of the works in India; 
you are aware that an immense amount of duty would have to be performed by 
some person or other in this country, whether representing the Government or 
in any private railway company ; I mean as to the supply of those materials, and 

0.61. X those 





Colonel Pears. 


* June 1858. 


162 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

those stores of one kind and another, which can only be got in this country ?— 
Precisely. 

2387. Do you think it would be desirable that all the large experience which 
has been gained in this country by gentlemen in the form itioa and construction 
of railways, and the supplying of machinery, and things of that kind for railway 
companies, should be lost?—Certainly not. 

2388. Do you not think there is some advantage to be derived from the mercan¬ 
tile experience of gentlemen who may be disposed to undertake the construction 
of railways in India?—I think you might take advantage of all their experience 
here, but you might have your masters and managers of your works situated in 
India: I think the supreme authority, so far as regarded ali the executive of the 
works, should be in India and not here. It i< easy to take full advantage of the 
mercantile knowledge of gentlemen here, without giving them any power over .the 
management of the railway. 

2389. Does that necessarily imply that the funds must be provided in India ? — 
I do not feel that I have anything to say to that question ; I am speaking of it as 
a matter of convenience. I wish the funds were supplied iu India. We have no 
native investors in these railways ; and to my mind that is a serious mistake. 

2390. From what does that arise, in your opinion ?—It is merely because all 
the dividends, and everything else, are paid here, and the shares are registered 
here. 

2391. Do you not know that in the East Indian Railway and the Great Indian 
Peninsula the shares can be transferred in India, that registries are kept in India, 
and that there is no necessity for taking out administration in the case of a person 
who dies, and that the shares being transferred there is no occasion for a re¬ 
ference to this country; are you not also aware that the dividends are now regu¬ 
larly paid in Calcutta and Bombay ?—I now remember that they are in those two 
railways; and I presume, for that reason, that they have more native shareholders 
than we have at Madras. 

2392. Chairman.] Have you heard any native opinion expressed in Madras 
leading you to suppose that the natives desire to hold railway stock?—I have. 

2393. Mr. Crawford.'] Do you think that if the Madras Railway Company 
had an office for registering shares in Madras, it would be satisfactory to the 
natives of Madras?—I should think so. 

2394. When you made this statement in answer to question No. 2242, “ With 
the same instruments in other respects, working under the direct orders of the 
Government, I am satisfied that the work would be carried on with 50 per cent, 
saving of time, and not much less saving in money/’ did you hear in mind that 
the cost of the Madras line, to which your remark may be presumed chiefly to 
refer, did not exceed 6,000 l. per mile ?—I bore everything in mind that had re¬ 
ference to what I saw, or thought I saw coming on ; I do not think that any 
remaining portion of the line will be executed so cheaply. 

2395. The length of line to be constructed from Madras to Beypoor, being 
about 420 miles, and the works having been entered upon in January 1 854, when 
do you expect that they will be able to complete the line from Madras to Bey¬ 
poor?—I have heard within the last few days from the gentleman holding my 
office, and he says he thinks it may be done by the end of i860. I was in 
hopes that «t would be about the end of 1858, but he now says 1 860. 

2396. Is it your opinion that if the works had been entered upon at the same 
time by the Government as they were entered upon by the railway company, 
working in co-operation with, and, as you say, in subordination to, the Govern¬ 
ment, that the line which will have taken six years to make, and will have cost 
6,000 l. per mile, would have been constructed in three years, and at an expense 
of 3,000 l. per mile?—In the first place, there is no chance of its being con¬ 
structed at 6,000 /. per mile, and it will have taken seven years if it is opened at 
the end of 1860. I think all our sanguine prognostications have failed hitherto, 
and I think it is very doubtful whether it will not be so now. 

2397. it matters not whether the time is six or seven years, or whether the 
amount is 6,000 /. or 8,000 /.; do you adhere to your opinion that it would have 
been done in half the time, and at half the amount of cost?—That expression 
“ 50 per cent.,” was used to convey the idea that it would have been very con¬ 
siderable. I believe it might have been done at a very considerably less expen¬ 
diture, 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 163 

diture, both of time and money. I believe the whole line might have been com¬ 
pleted if it had been under the sole orders of Government, with funds fully sup¬ 
plied, in four years, i think also that it might have been made much cheaper 
than it will be now. 

2398. You are of opinion that if the Government had acted according to your 
method they would have constructed a railway equally good and substantial for 
something like 3,000 1 . per mile ?—I am not prepared to sav that. I think this 
will cost considerably more. 

2 399 - You think the Government could have done it for a less sum }—Very 
much less, in my opinion, from what 1 have seen, and from what I believe is now 
going on. Will you allow me to add a few words to that: the first portion of 
the line, 65 miles, was executed at a cost of about 3,000/. a mile, besides the 
permanent way material, which was exceedingly heavy. The estimates by the 
railway officers themselves, exclusively of the stations, which should not "cost 
about 70 t. or 80/. per mile, were 1,500 /. per mile. We generally find, in the 
Public Works Department, that the estimates are pretty closely adhered to. if 
they are not, it creates great dissatisfaction, and is a serious matter for the officers 
concerned. That portion of the line, although I think, under all circumstances, it 
was completed at a reasonable cost, and was cheaper than many other lines, yet 
it exceeded by a considerable amount the estimates made and sanctioned. 

2400. Those estimates were made by gentlemen who had no large amount of 
experience in the country ?—They had not much experience. 

2401. Drawing a comparison between the estimates formed by railway en¬ 
gineers who hac! no experience, and estimates which you say have been made 
generally successfully by tlie officers of the engineering department of the 
Government, in the one case there was almost an entire want of experience in the 
country, as against a very long and complete experience of the country ?—The 
estimates were, I believe, when made, well considered ; all the prices were kept 
low, because Mr. Bruce was anxious to be as economical as he could. I mention 
that to show that it might have been clone cheaper. 

2402. Has it been your practice, when exercising the duties of consulting 
engineer, to maintain a minute supervision over the mode in which the works had 
been constructed, as to their details ?—I have generally looked to the plans, and 
seen that they were not, in my judgment, deficient either in strength or waterway ; 
and if they were correct, I did not take any further notice. If there was a super¬ 
fluity of material in them I did not interfere; and in fact only interfered when 
I thought they were insufficient. 

2403. You are aware, probably, that under the contract the risk and mainte¬ 
nance of the works rests, after a certain time, with the railway company ?—1 do 
not think they have any risk, because it all goes into the guaranteed capital. I do 
not recognise any risk on the part of the company; it is all at the risk of the 
Government. 

2404. Supposing you have completed a section of a railway, that the works are 
considered therefore as finished; but after the railway has been in the course of 
operation for a given time, say a year, some casualty occurs from the faulty con¬ 
struction of a bridge, would that have to be made good out of the earnings of 
the railway company, or could it be taken out of capital ?—After the first year, 
or whatever was the time allowed for the maintenance of the railw ay to fall upon 
capital, it would be taken out of the revenue. 

2405. And therefore the risk would be upon the railway company ?—If the 
railway company expect to get anything above 5 per cent, it is a risk, but not 
otherwise. 

240b. The risk being upon the railway company, do you not think that the 
supervision on the part of the Government would be sufficiently exercised by the 
consulting engineer and the railway company’s engineer agreeing upon certain 
matters of principle, or certain matters of detail, in the construction of the line, 
the whole of the construction being left in the hands of the railway engineer as 
representing the railway company, which bear the risk of any default on his partr 

_Certainly not ; in the first place I do not think that the risk is with the 

railwav company, because of the 5 per cent, they are guaranteed, and i think 
their chance of anything more upon most of the railways very remote. As 
regards a general understanding with the chief engineer of the railway, that 
mfoht be done wherever we have the contract system ; but the peculiarity ot our 
system at Madras rendered it necessary, if there was to be any control on the' 
part of the Government, that it should be a control of details; that the officer of 


Colonel Pears, 


3 June 1858, 



164 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel Pears. 


3 June 1858. 


the Government should be made acquainted with the expenditure as it went on. 
If the engineer of the railway company sends in an estimate of 100,000 rupees, 
for a bridge, I might say it was very moderate; but if 1 did not inquire further, 
he might expend 200,000 rupees. Tne only plan I saw was to get the monthly 
details of their expenditure and progress, and if I saw any point on which the 
estimate was not likely to be acted upon, I could mention it, and exercise some 
sort of check in that way. During the four or live years we have had this system 
going on, very few instances have occurred of any remarks being made on the 
details. My plan was to report to the Government, that from what I could see 
of the details the expenditure was going on pjiri passu with the progress, and 
at the end I reported upon it, and showed that the money had been advanta¬ 
geously laid out. 

2407. Your reasoning would be different if the railway company were paying a 
dividend out of profits over 5 per cent. ?—In some measure. 

2408. Your remark is referable more to the case of the Madras Railway, from 
which you do not expect large results ?—I have not given much attention to the 
other railways ; my opinion depends also upon this consideration, that while the 
benefit to the railway company from any extra profits may be pronounced uncer¬ 
tain and remote, there is a benefit from every extension of capital; that is, every 
time, whether from extravagant expenditure or other causes, there is an extension 
of capital, there is necessarily an extension of shares, and those shares have been 
almost always standing at a premium in the market; therefore by a large expen¬ 
diture there is an immediate and certain profit, but by economy there is a remote 
and uncertain result of profit in excess of the guarantee. 

2409. When you speak of extravagant expenditure, you are stating an ideal 
case ?—That is all. 

2410. Chairman.'] You say you think the chance of the railway earning more 
than 5 per cent, remote; is it not the fact that a portion of the line now open is 
earning 7 per cent.?—That is an exceptional case; it is worked under very 
favourable circumstances. 

2411. Were you referring to the Madras or to the Bengal line when you gave 
that opinion ?—It is my opinion that the lines generally across the plains of India 
will not pay more than 5 per cent., and that the line of the Valley of the Ganges 
is an exceptional case. 

2412. I ask you to answer this simple question, have you any railway now 
open in India that is not earning more than 5 percent.?—Yes; the Madras 
Railway does noTearn anything like .5 per cent., and the last account I saw 
of the Bombay Railway, I think, shows that that just comes up to it. 

2413. Do you think you can form an opinion, from the earnings of a small 
portion of a line which will ultimately extend into large productive districts, of 
what may be the probable earnings of that line?—I am inclined to think, that in 
all cases the portions of the lines now open are the most productive portions. 
They get an accumulation of traffic on a short line in the neighbourhood of 
large populous towns, where they have a great deal of local traffic. 

2414. Mr. Campbell.] You have given it as your opinion that expense and 
delay might have been saved if the railways had been constructed by the Govern¬ 
ment instead of by the companies ?—Yes. 

2415. How do you arrive at that conclusion?—It is an opinion I have formed 
from what I have seen of the expenditure of time and money on the works. 

2416. Can you give us any practical example, showing that if the Govern¬ 
ment had constructed them on their own account, they would have constructed 
them more expeditiously than they have been constructed by the railway com¬ 
panies ?—I could bring forward many instances of practical works, such as large 
bridges, constructed much more expeditiously than the works have been here. 
Upon this line there is one bridge, as to which we are complaining that we 
cannot get it opened ; the railway company has been three years engaged 
upon it. 

2417. Do you know the grand trunk road from Delhi to Calcutta?—I have 
heard of it. 

2418. Do you know when that work was commenced ?—No. 

2419. Do you not know that Lord William Bentinck commenced it upwards 
of five and twenty years ago ? — I do not know when it was commenced. 

2420. Are you aware that it is not completed ?—I. am not. 

2421. And that 25 years have been occupied in the construction of a simple 

road 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 165 

road ft 0111 Delhi to Calcutta under the supervision of the Government?—I know 
nothing about it, as to how far it is completed. 

2422. With reference to the Madras Presidency, are there any other Govern¬ 
ment works which, in comparison of the amount of labour and money expended, 
have been executed with greater expedition than the works of the railway com¬ 
panies under the Court of Directors ?—Taking the railways as a whole, we have 
no works that have demanded a large expenditure ; but we have works of the 
same kind, such as bridges across rivers; they have, in many instances, been 
executed much quicker than some of the bridges over the railways. In one 
similar instance, as regards the difficulty of foundation of a bridge, we began and 
completed one within ten miles of one of these railway bridges, the non¬ 
completion of which we regret. 

2423. In support of your assertion, that both time and money would have 
been economised, I understand that you have no practical illustration in com¬ 
parison to adduce ?—Yes; I have just mentioned a practical illustration of a 
bridge, and I judge of the expense from what I know to be the ordinary expenses 
under Government. 

2424. Will you name the particular bridge ?—It is a bridge over the Colleroon 
river, which we built within two years. I cannot tell you the exact time. It 
consists of 38 arches of 60 feet span, and to the best of my recollection it cost 
something ie-s than 150,000 rupees. I have not the particulars of any ether 
bridges, but 1 know the fact itself, and the data from which the estimates were 
made. I do not think it is very much to be wondered at, because the Govern¬ 
ment has a great advantage in the class of men they empioy. 

2425. Do not the Government co-operate with the railway companies ?_Most 

cordially, but they canrot enter into details ; the great thing wanted is discipline, 
and prompt exercise of authority. I do not find fault with the instruments of the 
railway companies ; they had exceedingly active and intelligent men ; but the 
difficulty arises from the complicated kind of authority. 

2426. From the system of double government?—That is it. 

2427. If left to themselves, the railway company might have constructed their 
line with greater expedition ?—I think it very likely. I should explain, that I 
mean, if they had adopted a plan of prompt local government, because without 
that, I am sure they cannot. 

2428. You say it would be advantageous if the railways were constructed 
by the Government, and that then the natives of India w-ould invest in them? 
—Yes. 

2429. You are aware, probably, that no confidence existed in railways on the 
part of the native community, and the services of India, or on the part of the 
Government of India, until private enterprise from this country induced the 
Government to guarantee the funds necessary for the creation of the railway? 
—I do not think it implied any commercial enterprise to iend money at 5 per 
cent on good security. 

2430. " I ask you whether you are aware that the official opinion of India, and 
the opinion of the Government of India, and the opinion of the native, community 
of India was opposed to railways, and that they had no confidence in them, when 
English enterprise and capital came to the rescue in the construction of the 
railways?—I remember that many of the mercantile houses in Calcutta expressed 
rather desponding views regarding the commercial success of railways, and there¬ 
fore I think that if matters had been left to commercial enterprise, you would 
have had no shareholders; they required the Government guarantee to induce 
them to put down their money. 

2431. You are aware, probably, that it was through the intervention of Lord 
William Bentinck, and the commercial enterprise of men in this country, that the 
railways were commenced?—I think it was rather through the exertions of 
Sir McDonald Stephenson, and afterwards through the expressed opinion of Lord 
Dalhousie. Instead of trusting to the commercial enterprise, they trusted to the 
interest paid to them upon the guarantee of 5 per cent. 

2432. You say that the prospect of getting anything beyond 5 per cent, is 
remote ; how do you arrive at that opinion ?—I expressed that opinion with par¬ 
ticular reference to the railways in the south of India. 

2433. You consider that railways are a great advantage to India?—Yes. 

2434. The circulation of such an opinion, without anything upon which to found 
your opinion, from an officer of your position and experience in Madras, is likely 

0.61. x 3 materially 


Colonel Pears. 


3 June 1858. 



166 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel Peat's^ 
3 June 1858. 


materially to interfere with the extension of railways, which you admit are so 
beneficial ?—I do not think it will at all interfere with it so long as there is any 
guarantee ; I merely give an opinion. 

2435. Have you r.o practical experience to found that opinion upon ?—Of 
course, I have been many years in India; my opinion is, that railways have a work 
to perform before they can be expected to be found remunerative. 

2436. You think that the fraction of the line which has been opened is suffi¬ 
cient to warrant you in coming to such a conclusion?-—It is from what I know 
of the interior districts, and population, and produce that I form that opinion. 

2437. Will not the effect of railways be to produce a traffic where it did not 
exist before ?—That will depend very much upon the charges. 

2438. On the soil and on facilities of railway communication?—It depends 
upon the charges of the railways. If you do not carry goods cheaper than they 
have been carried hitherto, you will not have a single additional bale of cotton 
carried. 

2439. ^ r - Cheetham .] DoV rightly conclude that your opinion is, that the 
construction of railways in India should be originated in India, by the Govern¬ 
ment of India ?—Yes. 

2440. You think that as regards a saving of time and economy of construction,, 
those two results would have ensued from the Government construction?—Yes. 

2441. Did you ever press that opinion upon the Government of India?— 

I gave that opinion before the railway company was formed. 

2442. Is it your opinion, that as regards the oher railways in India, which it 
is evident must hereafter he made, the Government ought to undertake the con¬ 
struction of those lines?—I hold the same opinion as I did before, that it would 
be better for the people of the country, better and cheaper, if done by the Govern¬ 
ment. 

2443. Have you any suggestion to make as to improvements upon the present 
system of construction in India as carried on by private companies ?—The only 
suggestion I could make would be to simplify the ruling authorities as much as 
possible, by having some railway managing authority on the spot in communica¬ 
tion with the Government, and that there should be no appeal, upon questions of 
management and discipline, to England. 

2444. You have spoken about native shareholders ; is-it not the fact that a very 
small proportion of railway capital supplied to India has been raised from native 
shareholders ?—In Madras I think there is very little indeed ; and in the other 
Presidencies I suppose it has been small. 

2445. With regard to the Madras line, so far as it is already opened for traffic, 
am 1 correct in under standing your statement to be, that it does not pay the 
guarantee of 5 per cent:. ?—It does not yet, so far as I have seen the returns. 

2446. Is it not in a populous district, so far as it goes?—‘Tolerably so, and there 
are very large towns at its termini. 

2447. How far is it up?—To Veliore. 

2448. Was the direction of this line suggested by the Madras Government, or 
was it at the instigation of the railway company?—It was approved by them. 

2449. In their advice did they look to the commercial results as well as the 
convenience to the population?—I think almost wholly to the commercial 
results. 

24.50. Does it open into an agricultural district ?—Entirely so throughout. I 
must tell you that at the present moment a great part of the traffic does not go 
upon the line at all, but by a road alongside of it. 

24.51. Colonel Sykes.] You say that the shareholders in the railway have no 
risk ; explain what you mean by that?—I conceive they have no risk, on account 
of having this guarantee on their capital. But perhaps I should qualify that 
expression by stating, that the risk, if any, is extremely remote ; they would suffer 
if the line did not pay its working expenses, but there is no fear of that in any 
case. 

2452. You mean to say that the only risk they run is in case the line does not 
pay its working expenses ?-—Yes. 

2453. Do you mean they run no risk because they have a right to transfer their 
responsibility to the Government ? —Yes. 

2454. Under what circumstances ?—I do not recollect the exact terms, but I 
think if the work fails they can, by giving a few months’ notice, make it over to 

he Government, and take back their capital at its market value. 


2455. Do 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 167 

2455. Do you mean to say that they can transfer the responsibility of the whole 
■ol their subscriptions to the Government, in case they wish to throw oft* the re¬ 
sponsibility, under a certain notice ?—So I understand the contract. 

2456. Then, in fact, you consider that this is, on the part of the Government, 

merely a loan of money, paying 5 per cent, for it ?—So I consider, with this dis¬ 
advantage, that the shareholders can demand payment wherever they like. 

2457. And that the shareholders, the moment th:-y entertain doubts of their 
^Yeg ment Sufficient, y profitable, can divest themselves of responsibility ? 

2458. Your observation as to the saving of time and money, had reference to 
the action of double authorities, namely, railway boards in England, and the 
2 ail way departments in India r—It had, chiefly. 

2459 - you C011s ider that the cost of those double establishments in Enp¬ 
lane. and in India, might he avoided by the Government undertaking the works 
themselves r —i think so; and not only so, but I think the direct exercise of autho¬ 
rity 011 P art ol the local Government, with reference to the agents iinmedi- 
atelv concerned, in carrying out the works, would have an extremely beneficial 
effect. 

2460. As it would have been economical, and at the same time more efficient 
lion do you account for the Government not having done it?—I do not know* 
they thought otherwise, I suppose. 

2461. Do you think that money could not have been obtained upon loan in 
England, at a less rate than 5 per cent ?—I should think they might iiave obtained 
it, and that they might have obtained money in India, although not perhaps to 
the full extent they required, upon a loan of 5 per cent. 

2462. \ ou consider that the Government might have obtained some 20 or 30 
millions of money, at a less rate of interest than they are now paying for the 
guarantee, either in England or in India, and that they could have carried out the 
railways with greater expedition and more efficiency than they are now being car¬ 
ried out ?—I think they could have raised it at least at as low' a rate of interest, and 
that they would have made them more efficiently, and would have had it in their 
power to give the natives in India the full benefit of the works, working the railway 
on a liberal scale of'charges. 

2463. You have a terminus I think, at Beypore?—Yes. 

2464. What is the object of having a terminus there ?—It was as near as we 
could conveniently get. to the capital town of the province; it was in the direct 
line of the large military establishment at Malabar; it is one of the best harbours 
on that part of the coast, and at the mouth of a river navigable for 40 or 50 
miles up the interior. 

2465. Is the improved navigability of the river aini the capacity of the harbour 
necessary to the successful operation of the railway ?—I think not. 

246b. Do you not think it is desirable to improve the harbour and the naviga¬ 
bility ol the river?—It would be so; the river is navigable now so far as I know, 
but I doubt very much the practicability of improving the harbour by any means 
short of a breakwater outside; it is a river with a bar, as usual, across the open¬ 
ing. 1 doubt whether anything could be done to improve the harbour as it now- 
stands ; if it was found necessary to execute any great work, the only thing would 
fie a breakwater outside, protecting the line of the harbour, and giving good 
lying ground under shelter. 

2467. Do you not think that trade would be increased, and that the line would 
be better fed if there were a good harbour?—No doubt; but the seasons out 
there are nothing like ours; for nine months in the year they do not require any 
harbour; and during the rest of the year they could hardly approach any harbour. 

2468. Chairman .] Is there not an extensive line of backwater which extends 
from Bey poor almost to Cape Comorin?—It does not touch Beypoor within, I 
think, 40 miles; from thence to the southward there is almost a continued line 
down to Cape Comorin. 

2469. Has the attention of Government been called by the railway company 
to the want of improvement in the harbour of Beypore and the inland navigation? 
—I do not remember that; I have called the attention of the Government to the 
necessity of improving the harbour, and an officer, I think, was sent to report 
upon it. 

2470. Would not a system of inland navigation assist very materially in bring¬ 
ing up the supplies of all that district upon the line of railway ?—Very much 

0.61. X4 indeed; 


Colonel Pears. 


3 June 1858. 



168 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel Peart. 


3 June 1858. 


indeed ; the railway runs up to Beyporc ; and from there northward, there is no 
great facility for introducing this kind of backwater navigation; from the south 
there are many miles of backwater navigation, and 12 or 15 miles would throw it 
into communication with the present railway. 

2471. Is the district through which that natural backwater communication 
exists, a productive district?—Yes, it is the same as the rest of that coast. 

2472. Is it your opinion, as an engineer, that the navigation should be improved 
and brought into action ?—Certainly. 

2473. 1° order to facilitate and to ensure the ultimate success of this line of 
railway?—Certainly, I have often given that opinion. 

2474. Colonel Sykes.] Did the railway company’s agent express on any occa¬ 
sion his sense of the support and assistance received from the Government?—It 
was very often expressed to me personally ; and it was expressed in the first of our 
annual reports. The first gentleman who went out as agent was Mr. Smalley ; and 
in his first report, dated 5th April 1 854, he writes, “ I cannot close this brief report 
without expressing my acknowledgment of the kind aid afforded by the Govern¬ 
ment, on every occasion that I have had occasion to seek it, and of the readi¬ 
ness with which it has been afforded.” 

2475. Is there any other report of the same character?—I do not observe any 
other allusion to the Government; but the same feeling was often expressed in 
words by Mr. Smalley, and by Major Jenkins who succeeded him. 

2476. What is the date and general tenor of your last inspection report ?—My 
last inspection report is dated 22d September 1856, and its general tone may be 
gathered from this paragraph, which, if the Committee will allow me, I will read : 
“ But, putting aside past difficulties and shortcomings, I consider the future 
prospects of the work satisfactory. A uniform system of work and of supervision of 
accounts has been established ; the engineers are at work at nearly all points on 
the line; the amount of work executed during the month is on the increase, and 
my own impression is, that we are justified by present appearances in expecting 
to see the line open as far as the Sherwaroy Hills by the end of 1 857 ; to the 
other coast by the end of the following year.” The rest of the report is made 
up of detailed accounts of what had been clone. 

2477. Chairman.'] You say that the last accounts do not confirm the view 
expressed there?—They do not. 

2478. The last accounts you have received were on the authority of the con¬ 
sulting engineer?—They were. 

2479. Your successor?—Yes, in a private letter I received from him. He 
speaks favourably of the work, and he adds the hope that the line will be opened 
by the end of 1 860. 

2480. What is the name of your successor?—Captain Johnson. 

2481. He does not anticipate that the whole line will be opened before the end 
of i860 ?—Tiie end of i860 he mentioned to me. 

2482. Sir J. JElphinstone.] How far is Beypoor from Calicut ?—Five miles. 

2483. The line runs over by Pal Ghaut ?—Yes; it is a natural opening in the 
ghauts. 

2484. There is a considerable extent of that country on which there are no 
inhabitants, I believer—All the first portion close under the hills is uninhabited, 
but it is a populous district. 

2485. Malabar is not populous, I believe?—The most populous, I think, 
taking it as a whole, that we have j it is very populous in those portions that are 
inhabited at all. 

24S6. Do you suppose, at the present rate of tariff, that you would get the 
whole traffic of the country to carry upon that railway?—No; I think at the rate 
that was in force when I left, it would probably be sufficient to take all the 
existing traffic in goods, but I do not think it would have the effect of lowering 
prices in such a way as to extend the traffic in agricultural produce. 

2487. When did you first begin to make the line?—In the beginning of 1853. 

2488. "What extent of line have you opened altogether?—By this time, I 
believe, about 91 miles ; when I left India there were only 80 miles open. 

2489. In what state are the works on the other part of the line, are they pretty 
forward ?—They were in such a state in 18.56 when I saw them, that I thought 
they would be finished by 1858 ; but 1 am told now that they will not be finished 
until the end of i860. 

2490. That is the whole line to Beypoor?—The whole line to Beypoor. 

2491. Are 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 169 

2491. Are you acquainted with any cause of delay in the construction of the 
works, which, if you had to do the work over again, you would be able to remedy? 
—No ; the Government officer cannot put anything on a better footing as regards 
delay in the execution of the work. 

2492. Supposing you had to make a line into any other district of the Madras 
territory, could you improve the practice that has been resorted to in the con¬ 
struction ot the Madras line?—If we had to make a railway by a company under 
the present system, I could not propose any alteration as regards the proceedings 
of the Government; there might be some minute errors which I have myself fallen 
into that I could avoid. 

2 493 - Tour distinct opinion is that the Government ought to make these lines ? 
—Yes. 

2494. What would you propose to do with them afterwards ; would you work 
them by a company, or would you offer the stock for sale ?—I did suggest at one 
time that the Government might allow a company to work the lines, but mv own 
view is, that it would be better worked by the Government; my reasons for saying 
that is, that I think the Government would be disposed to work them for the 
benefit of the people. 

2495. The alternative you proposed %vas to lease the lines of railway to a com¬ 
pany or that the Government should work them ?—Yes. 

2496. Had you any practical difficulty in getting the proper number of sleepers ? 
—There is a difficulty which arises from the want of roads into the forests, and 
the unhealthy nature of some parts of the forests, and from the ignorance of the 
people generally; there was a demand for an enormous amount of wood all at 
once, and the supply was not ready for it; we wanted a new system to get any¬ 
thing like a supply. 

2497. Had you not the means of inducing the wealthy contractors to take con¬ 
tracts r—I have observed that there was such a class of men, and if we had 
carried out the system 1 proposed, I think many of them would have tendered. 

2498. Are you aware that in Ceylon the whole system of work is carried on 
by contracts ?—I am not aware of that. 

2499. Does the difficulty of procuring wood for sleepers arise from the lower 
parts of the hills being cultivated ?—It arises from the forests being inaccessible 
for want of roads, and also from some parts of the forests being unhealthy ; there 
is a small number of wood-cutters who have accustomed themselves to the climate, 
and who are sufficient in number to meet a small demand only for timber. 

2500. They are a very troublesome people, are they not?—I expect they are. 

2501. Mr. T. G. Baring.'] Mr. Bruce read a great many of your progress 
reports in 1853 and 1854; they were generally unsatisfactory, were they not?— 
I do not know that they were generally so, I think they were of a mixed 
character. 

2502. Some of them were unsatisfactory?—Some were unsatisfactory. 

2503. To what do you attribute the unsatisfactory progress of the works at 
that time ?—I left that to be explained by the railway agent; I had no means of 
knowing. I was prepared to admit any explanation of it, but my duty was 
merely to say that, as a quantity, it was not sufficient. It was not my duty to 
inquire into details, and 1 could not tell whether the agent was to blame, or the 
resident engineer, or any one else. All I had to do was, to call the attention of 
the Government to the fact, that the work done was not satisfactory. 

2504. Can you express any opinion as to the cause of the unsatisfactory pro¬ 
gress ?—It is impossible to do so; it might arise from inexperience on the part of 
the local engineer, or it might have been from bad arrangements on his part ; 
there are thousands of causes which they might explain, but which I could not. 
I have known some cases in which the engineers themselves have told me all 
their difficulties, but I would not have done for me to report officially any direct 
communications from the executive engineers. 

2505. Mr. Bruce referred to the annual report of 1854, which you made in 
1855, to show that vour reports were rather hard upon the railway engineers ; do 
you happen to have that annual report by you ?—I have. 

2506. Refer to this paragraph, quoted by Mr. Bruce: “ In some cases the 
progress of this work was not such as could be considered satisfactory, and was 
remarked upon in consequence by Government ” ?—That was the surveying and 
levelling; and it was not only remarked upon by the Government, but by the agent 

o.6j. Y in 


Colonel Pears. 


3 June 1S38. 



Colonel Pears. 


3 June 1858. 


170 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

in his report; the agent, in one of his reports, mentioned the names of some of 
the engineers whose progress had not been satisfactory. 

2507. Chairman.]] Did the remark of the agent and your remark apply to the 
same thing?—It was in the report of 1853 that the a g ent remarked upon the 
progress; those two paragraphs in my report refer to two different things, as I 
undei stand. 

2508. The remark of the progress being unsatisfactory refers only to the sur¬ 
veying and levelling?—In that paragraph. 

2509. Your general impression, at the end of the year, was, that the work had 
progressed satisfactorily ?—Yes. 

2510. Mr. T. G. Baring .] Your view is, that although in some cases the progress 
in particular parts was not so quick as it might have been, yet that on the whole 
for the year the progress was satisfactory?—Precisely so, and there is not the least 
doubt that the generally satisfactory character of the progress was owing to the 
little spurs given to them by the Government. If one district showed 120,000 
yards of earthwork, and another only 40,000, I could do nothing but say that 
they were unsatisfactory. 

2511. In your communications with Mr. Smalley, the agent of the company, 
had you often differences of opinion with him?—I think rarely, nor had I any 
difference of opinion with his successor until we came to issue on discussions 
relating io traffic. 

2512. In the construction of the railway, did you work cordially with the 
agents of the company, Mr. Smalley and Major Jenkins?—Very much so. 

2513. The difference would be between the engineer of the company and you 
and the agent?—Yes. 

2514. The agent and yourself concurring, but the engineer differing from both 
of you ?—Generally so. 

2515. Was that the case with regard to the difficulty of obtaining accounts, 
previous to the advance of money ?—In most cases it certainly was. I should 
explain that by saying, that the agent was always anxious, if he could, to put the 
best appearance on the matter ; but he frequently complained of the difficulty he 
had in getting the accounts we called for. 

2516. Was there one case in which Mr. Smalley agreed with you as to the 
necessity of delaying the advance?—Yes, writing in November 1854, he says: 
“ With this explanation perhaps you will no longer demur to obtain the sanction 
of the Government for the advances required ; I fully enter into your views as to 
the necessity of stopping supplies of money after so many unsuccessful applications 
for correct and complete accounts.” 

2517. With regard to sleepers, was it the case that the agent and yourself 
were agreed upon the whole course pursued with respect to obtaining them ?—No, 
we were not agreed ; the agent preferred buying them as he got an opportunity. 

2518. He differed with you in that respect?—Yes; I think the first agent 
differed slightly; he took up the advertising system, but was disposed always to be 
at liberty to buy them as he could. Mr. Smalley did not come to any discussion 
about it, but he had not the contidence which I had in the ultimate effects of 
adhering to the system of tender. 

2519. Have you any observations to make upon the remarks which Mr. Bruce 
made with respect to the cost of bungalows ?—I looked upon that as a matter of 
discipline more than anything else; the fact was this, that the engineers came out 
from England with a certain amount of salary, and we were told that it included 
all their personal expenses. When they arrived, they were furnished at the sug¬ 
gestion, I think, of the chief engineer with a set of tents each, which were given 
to them; they then had certain marching allowances; and then, after a little con¬ 
sideration, it was decided to build small huts, as being cooler and drier than their 
tents. 

2520. Chairman.'] At whose expense ?—At the railway company’s expense;- 
the allowance for their own huts was 350 rupees, which was considered at that 
time sufficient; in fact, I know it is, for I have lived in due often myself. The 
first two engineers exceeded the allowance considerably ; one was a married man, 
and he thought he might supply accommodation for" his wife. Mr. Bruce, the 
chief engineer, when sending in and asking that the extra account might be 
sanctioned, said, “ I trust that this question will be met liberally, and that the 
same consideration for the circumstances in which the engineer was placed as a 
perfect stranger, will be shown, as was done in district No. 1. I would not again 

advocate 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). i 7 i 

advocate the allowance of the smallest excess above the estimate, because the 
matter is now so fully understood, and the woodwork can be done for so much 
less, that there will be no excuse for it.” After that, the engineers exceeded, to 
a considerable extent, the amount authorised. It seemed clear to me, and I pre¬ 
sume that the Government took the same view, that the agent’s authority in this 
matter was set at naught, and it appeared as if the chief engineer himself could not 
enforce the orders he had properly concurred in, and the Government determined, 
as I think rightly, to vindicate their authority and support that of the agent by 
withholding their sanction to this expenditure. 

2521. Mr. T. G. Baring .] Mr. Bruce attributes some portion of the delay to 
the want of a sufficient staff. Did that ever come to your notice ?—The agent fre¬ 
quently applied for an increase of staff, and I think it will be found that in most 
of the cases he was supported by the Government; in the case of European sub¬ 
ordinates a wish had been expressed by the Court of Directors and by the Board 
that they should be employed as sparingly as possible ; all we did was to express 
an opinion that they could do very well without them, but leaving it to the railway 
directors at home to send out as many as they thought proper. 

2522. Was it the case that the agent of the Company, with your concurrence, 
forwarded a requisition for a greater supply of engineers?—I think so; I was 
always an advocate for a full supply of engineers; they advocated one for every 
25 miles. I was anxious that that should be kept up, and in fact they have had 
hitherto a sufficient number. 

2523. Has a sufficient number been sent out from home?—I think so for the 
work we have in hand on the Madras and Beypoor line ; they have been unfor¬ 
tunate in their selection in two or three cases. 

2524. You stated that, in your opinion, the line would have been carried out 
cheaper and quicker by the Government?—Yes. 

2525. On what particular points would the Government have had an advan¬ 
tage?—Merely in the exercise of discipline; I think, if the Government had had 
all these gentlemen, many of them active and intelligent gentlemen, under their 
direct orders, and any district was late in its work, the officer of the Government, 
who must be supposed to understand something of the country, could have looked 
into it immediately, and if he had found any one incapable, he could have 
removed him at once. 

2526. Do you think that delay has occurred from the necessity of the agent of 
the Company referring home to the Railway Board ?—I know it has in some 
cases. I can mention a remarkable instance of a bridge that is now under con¬ 
struction, and that is a bridge I mentioned in a report to the Government. There 
is an estuary called Kuddulhoondy. The engineer went into that district in 
December 1854; on 29th March 1856 the agent forwarded drawing of a bridge 
proposed for this Kuddulhoondy estuary, and forwarded also a letter from the 
chief engineer, requesting that the opinion of the railway company’s consulting 
engineer in England might be taken upon one important feature in the plan. It 
vvas impossible to submit a plan to the Government under condition that it should 
be altered after they had sanctioned it. This plan was therefore returned, and 
he was requested, as soon as he had determined on his plan, to submit it to 
Government; this was in March 1856; on 19th December 1856, eight months 
afterwards, the agent was reminded of the subject, and he replied that the plan and 
estimate were in hand, and would be transmitted without delay; nothing more 
was heard of it until 8th August 1857, when it was found that it had been 
submitted to the Railway Board, and they then wrote out to ask for more 
information for their consulting engineer to decide upon the plan for this 
bridge. From the time the plan was submitted to the Government, there was an 
interval of a year and three or four months, and then the Railway Board at home 
asked for more information. The bridge, I believe, is not begun yet. 

2527. Had you sufficient engineering authorities whom the Government might 
have consulted at Madras, to settle the point there?—No doubt the chief engi¬ 
neer of the railway might have done it; the plan sent out was of a common 
wooden structure, such as the natives are in the habit of building in that district, 
only that it was rather more substantial. 

2528. In consequence of the delay it would be necessary to incur the expense 
of making a temporary structure.?*—I do not know whether it is a consequence of 

0.61. y 2 the 


Colonel Pears. 


3 June 1858. 



172 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel Pears. 


3 June 1858. 


the delay, because I think it was the best thing they could do, and it will last 
probably 20 or 30 years. 

2529. What discretion did the Railway Board give to their officers?—I think 
they intended that the works should be carried on in connexion with the local 
Government. I do not suppose it was their intention that any plans of works 
should be sent home to them ; but they did sometimes exercise their own discre¬ 
tion in making suggestions as to plans, and bridges, and waterways, that it would 
have been better to have left alone. We had engineers enough there to do it. 

2530. Do you think that any practical delay has ocurred by a reference to the 
Railway Board at home?—No. I think this one case is a remarkable one of 
what delay took place in that instance, and of what would take place in refer¬ 
ences of the same nature. 

2531. Did the Railway Board give sufficient discretion to their officers on the 
spot ?—I think so. 

2532. Then the objection is rather theoretical than practical?—Yes ; so far as 
regards their interference with the practice; but my objection to the Railway 
Board is chiefly as regarded their discipline. I think the agent on the spot has 
not sufficient authority, in consequence of there being a Railway Board as a sort 
of court of appeal behind him ; if any blame is cast upon the officers they look to 
the court at home. 

2533. Could the agent, with the consent of Government, discharge any officer ? 
—I believe not. I am not quite certain about that; but 1 know he was very 
much afraid to try it; and the only time he discharged a man he had to pay him 
six months’ salary. 

2534. You think the necessary consequence of a Government guarantee, 
accompanied by Government supervision, is to entail very considerable delay ?—I 
do not think Government supervision need do so; I think the delay arises more 
from the Railway Board being in England, and from the references that may be 
made, and will often be made, by the servants of the railway company to 
England. 

2535. Do you conceive, then, that a railway might be carried out by a com¬ 
pany, with the authority of the company being in India, with Government super¬ 
vision, as quick as by Government itself?—I should doubt even that, because then 
there would be the double government; the Government, with its officer, could 
not interfere with any of the agents at work; there would always be a screen 
between him and the working men. 

2536. Chairman.'] In the selection of the Madras line, were military grounds 
the chief reason of the Government for their selection?—No. 

2,537. Was it constructed essentially with a view to commercial advantages?— 
I believe essentially so. 

2538. You have alluded to certain differences which occurred between you and 
the railway ^engineer ; and I think I understood you to say that on most occasions 
you and the agent agreed pretty well; did the agent and the engineer differ on 
many occasions in their views of different questions? —They did frequently ; and 
their differences arose chiefly from the difficulty the agent experienced in getting 
replies to his references; and, in fact, I believe he complained to his own Board 
about it. 

2539. Replies from his own engineer ?—Yes. 

2540. Will you tell me what the chief points of difference were that arose 
between the agent and the engineer ; was it principally matters of correspondence ? 

•—I believe chiefly that; I was not in a position to know ; they had their own 
business to do amongst themselves. 

2541. It is only due to the engineers that I should put this question to you. 
You made use of the word “ indifference.” You said that if the Government 
had the control, wherever there were instances of indifference on the part of the 
engineer, it would be disposed of by dismissal. Can you state any instance in 
which any engineer employed upon any line in India did show indifference ?— 
I have not been in a position to know. 

2542. You do not wish to make any charge of indifference against the engineers 
emploj r ed ?—Certainly not. 

2543. I s it not the case that they have in the main shown remarkable alacrity 
in the discharge of their duties ?—They have; and I frequently reported to that 
effect, so far as I could venture to make any observation. 


2544. Was 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


2544. Was not the conveyance of salt to the interior kept in view as a very 
important object in the original construction of the line ?—Very important. 

2 545 - It was determined, I believe, that salt should be the return caro-o, if I 
inay use that expression, for the trains bringing produce from the interior ?— 
It was so. 


2546.^ Has a branch been laid down to connect the Government salt depdt with 
Madras?—I think probably it will be laid down. 

2 547 - Do you know whether the Government sanction lias been given to it?— 
They have sanctioned the principle of it, but there is some difference of opinion 
as to how it shall be done. 

2548. Can you state how long since the proposal for laying down that branch 
was first entertained?—1 cannot. 


2 549 * A™ I right in supposing that the question of salt bears materially upon 
the profits of the line ? —1 think so. 

2.550. Did you propose that this branch should be laid down on a narrower 
gauge than the railway itself?—I did. 

2 55 >• Will you state upon what grounds?—My grounds were stated fully in 
the report; and if the Committee had time to read them, I think they would see 
that I had good grounds for the opinion I gave. 

2552. Is it usual in railway construction to construct branches on a different 
gauge to the main line ?—No ; but in the first place, this is not looked upon in 
the light of a branch line ; it is a mere inclined plane that runs down from the 
railway to the salt depot, and only a few hundred yards in length. The salt 
depot is very extensive; it is three-quarters of a mile in length, and very deep. 
Government declined to carry the salt up the country ; if they had said they would 
convey the salt up to the stations on the railway, I should have said, lay down the 
broad gauge; but they declined to do so. I then said, “ If you have a broad 
gauge, so that you can carry seven or eight tons in a carriage, how will all 
the petty dealers, who deal for half a ton of salt, come into the market at all?” 
I felt satisfied that the only effect of having these large waggons run down would 
be 10 establish a monopoly in someone individual’s hands, and I had good reasons 
for supposing that there was every prospect of that; it was not therefore establish¬ 
ing a branch narrow gauge, but it was merely continuing the narrow gauge that 
ran among the salt heaps ; all you would have to do would be to continue those, 
and then any small trader who wanted a bushel of salt could take it; the traffic 
manager said they would not run down a waggon there unless they could get 
such and such a load, and if Government would not undertake it, it must fall into 
the hands of one man. 

2553. What is the length of the branch?—I do not think it is above 800 or 
900 yards. 

2554. I understand that the salt traffic upon which probably a considerable 
portion of the estimates of the railway were based, has not yet come into opera¬ 
tion ?—No ; we have seen the bullock carts taking away the salt as usual up the 
high road. 

2555. Do you think that if the railway were used as a mode of conveying 
salt into the interior, it would increase the amount of profits?—No doubt, and I 
have been anxious to see it done. I thought the Government should establish 
a salt depot on the line, and then they could have sent 300 or 400 tons at a time. 

2556. What is the reason why the arrangements in regard to the conveyance 
of salt upon the line have not been completed ?—I need only tell you that there 
has been a great deal of delay in getting the reports from the railway officers 
themselves as to what they wished or proposed to do. Six or eight months ago, 
the reports and the estimates of the Public Works Department were before the 
Government, when the only question pending was what part of the work each 
parly should undertake. The Government proposed to construct the line, and 
they said that the railway company would probably lay down the rails. My pro¬ 
posal of the narrow gauge was misunderstood, because if you have a narrow gauge 
running by the salt heaps, you must break somewhere, and I wished to continue 
that so as to secure to the small dealers in salt, some share of the traffic. 

2557. Did you make that suggestion to the Government and the railway com¬ 


pany ?— I did. 

2558. Mr. Crawford.'] Is there a department of public works at Madras ?— 
Yes. 

0.61. y 3 2559. Who 


Colonel Pears. 


3 June 1858. 



Colonel Pears. 


3 June 1858. 


174 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

2559. Who is the officer in charge of the public works?—Colonel Faber. 

2560. Upon the question of bungalows was there not one special bungalow 
which was the cause of the difference of opinion ?—There were some that cost 
much more than others ; in No. 6 district, one gentleman spent about 5,000 
rupees to the best of my recollection; those which cost most, of course caused 
more sensation than the others. 

2561. These bungalows, as we understood from a former witness, were con¬ 
structions which were intended to serve for the purpose not only of a roof, under 
which the engineer could shelter himself, but also of an office in which the 
business of the railway company could be conducted, and on the outside of 
which, under the verandah, the public business between the railway officers and 
third persons could be transacted ?—They were intended in the first instance as a 
substitute for a tent for the engineer. 

2562. Do you think that a tent would be sufficient for all purposes ?—Certainly ; 
it would depend upon the establishment he had; if his establishment increased, 
and he had not room in his own tent, he might have had another. The officers 
of the service generally do their business in one tent. 

2563. I believe these bungalows were intended for the use of an officer having 
25 miles of road ?—Yes. 

2564. It was his lodgment, and was also intended for the purposes of shelter 
under which he could transact the business of the railway company ?—Yes. 

2565. He w as allowed 350 rupees for the erection of a bungalow ?—Yes. 

2566. Is that a sufficient sum to construct U bungalow ?—Quite enough. 

2567. Of what description ?—A small building of mud walls and thatched 
roof, the sort of building that all the officers put up as being cooler than their 
own tents. 

2568. Has the engineer occupying that bungalow any property of the railway 
company in his custody for which he would be responsible. Has he a treasure 
chest?—His responsibilities would depend upon circumstances ; he has a certain 
sum of money. 

2569. Do you think that an edifice costing 350 rupees, affords a man sufficient 
protection for property he has in his charge ?—He would never think of trusting 
to the building for protection. It was suggested I think by the Accountant- 
general, to build small treasuries for them, but I think the agent himself raised 
some objection to that. You do not trust to the building, but to the peons and 
guards you have. 

2570- That was the occasion, was it not, of a reference to the Court of 
Directors ?—Yes. 

2571. What view did they take of the subject?—It ended in the Court of 
Directors directing that all the balances might be passed, and they were passed 
accordingly by the Government. 

2.572. Was not that bungalow controversy the cause of the memorial that was 
sent home by the railway engineers ?—1 do not know what was exactly the cause 
of it, because several other points were mentioned ; they mentioned what they 
called unfair criticism of their operations. I do ’ not know' that there was any 
particular cause beyond a general feeling of vexation at having the progress of 
the works noticed. There is only one passage that concerned myself which 
I thought required any notice. 

2573- By whom w as that memorial signed ?—By the engineers ; all, I think, but 
one; some of them, in fact, we had never reported upon, had never seen, and 
knew nothing about, neither the Government nor myself. 

2574. What was the name of the gentleman who did not sign ?—Mr. Wilson’s 
name, I think, you will not find there. 

2575. Did the chief engineer sign ?—He did not; it would not have done for 
him to sign of course. 

2576. Did not the Government, in commenting upon that memorial, say that 
the engineers had not been able to prove that any documents had been kept back 
from the Government ?—Yes. 

2577. Is it not a fact that the engineers did not complain of that, but that the 
documents had been kept back from the public?—They complained that the 
documents had been withheld from the annual reports, as well as from the news¬ 
papers ; nothing could be clearer than what they said, or, as I say, more 

unfounded. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). i 75 

unfounded. They said that the reports were published, and their replies withheld. 
One of the engineers apologised for having done so, and told me that he had found 
his letters, which he expected had gone to the Government, were all stopped in 
the chief engineer’s office. 

2578. You say you did not speak of the engineer of any particular district; 
do you not think that a statement of unfavourable progress, without any 
special explanation, is an implied censure upon the officer ?—Certainly not, from 
a man situated as I was ; I was reporting on the railway company’s works. I can 
now- explain to you why upon one district there was some delay under a very 
active man. He wrote to me on one occasion, and said he wished I would inter¬ 
fere, because they were sending all the plate-layers on to districts far ahead, 
which could not be open for some time to come; I wrote, saying, I was the 
Government officer, and could not interfere. 

2579. Did not the East India Company send out a request that the names of 
the engineers whose districts were unfavourably reported upon should be made 
known to them?—I do not remember their doing anything of the kind. 

2580. What is the practice when fresh engineers are required to be sent out; 
supposing the chief engineer wants more assistance, what does he do to obtain it ? 
—He writes to the agent; the agent asks permission of the Government to make 
application home. 

2581. Did I understand you to say that the question was left to the directors 
of the railway company in this country ?—With reference to subordinate European 
agency, our practice was to express our opinion, but to leave it to the Railway 
Board at home to decide whether they wanted the assistance they asked for. 

2582. What is the character of the bridge you were mentioning?—It is a 
bridge carried across an estuary generally shallow, and under the influence of the 
tide ; it was proposed, if I recollect right, to construct a bridge upon iron piles, 
and some question was left to be referred to the consulting engineer at home. 

2583. What was that question ?—I do not remember. 

2584. Was it not a question which could only be settled by a person in pos¬ 
session of the experience of a consulting engineer in this country?—I do not 
know what the question was; I cannot conceive any question which the chief 
engineer out there could not have decided. 

2585. Would not the materials for the construction of the bridge have to be 
sent out from this country?—Not necessarily. 

2586. What was the width of the estuary ?—It may have been 400 or 500 yards, 
perhaps. 

2587. It was a considerable work?—Yes. 

2588. It was, iu point of fact, an engineering work of importance?—Yes, but 
not one of difficulty, I should say. 

2589. Was there any other occasion on which the mode of constructing any 
particular work was referred to the consulting engineer in this country ?— Yes, a 
w ooden bridge was proposed in the same district; they sent home the plan, and 
there was a delay, I think, also in that case. The engineer commenced his survey 
in December 1854. On 17th March 1 856, some discussion having taken place with 
regard to the drawing, the agent was requested to forward an estimate; no 
answer was received to that letter in October 1857, hut it was referred home. 

2590. In the case of the Kuddulhoondy Bridge, was not the question which 
caused a reference to this country pending at the time of the chief engineer being 
obliged to come home?—The reference had been made before that; it took about 
14 months. 

2591. Do you not think there may be some connexion between the departure 
of Mr. Bruce and the delay?—There ought not to be; the reference was made in 
the beginning of 1856, and he came away at the end of that year. It was after 
he arrived at home that they wrote out again, and asked for more information. 

2592. Has any prejudicial consequence resulted from that bridge not being 
proceeded with ?—That particular work has been delayed, and it is likely to delay 
the opening of the line at that extremity. 

2593. How far is it from Beypore ?—About three miles. 

2594. Mention has been made by a former witness of what appeared to him to 
be an excessive demand made upon the officers of the railway company for plans 

0.61. Y 4 antl 


Colonel Pears. 


3 June 1858. 



176 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Colonel Pears, and drawings, especially in the case of locomotives ?—I think that is rather a 

- singular objection to make. As a Government officer, concerned in superintend- 

3 June 185b. ing everything connected with the railway, I required a copy of drawings which 
they received from England, a very reasonable demand, I think; in fact, without 
them, I could not carry on my duties. I wanted the dimensions, and I took the 
opportunity of getting from the locomotive superintendent, with whom I had a 
great deal of conversation upon the subject, information regarding its character 
altogether. I wanted the plan for various purposes connected with the engineer¬ 
ing works, and I wanted the other for my own instruction and assistance in 
judging of the working of the line afterwards. 

2595. Because you had no knowledge of locomotives yourself ?—I had some 
knowledge of them, but I considered myself so imperfectly acquainted that I 
wished to have all this information to improve myself. 

2596. Chairman .] Was the information, such as a civil engineer, practically 
acquainted with all the working of a locomotive department, would have required ; 
would he not have been able to judge, from sight, of an engine what its power 
would be?—No, I should think not; with regard to its evaporative power, and 
the pressure which the boiler was calculated to resist, all those things must 
be told him, unless he has been actually engaged in the construction of the 
engine. 

2597. You asked for drawings of each different description of engines and 
tenders, which drawings should have some letter or distinguishing mark, and also 
for a descriptive statement of the several articles of rolling stock, carriages, 
waggons, vans, &c., with the general dimensions, capacity, weight, number of 
wheels, estimated quantity of wrought materials, wood and iron, &c. ?—Yes. 

2598. When you made this request, were you aware that there w r ere no draughts¬ 
men procurable who were able to make the drawings ?—I was not aware when 
I made the request, and having been made aware of it, I have waited patiently 
until the present time. I have not got the drawings yet: 

2599. Is it not your opinion that with the staff necessarily limited, as it must 
be in India, those are minutiae which it is hardly necessary to insist upon ?—On 
the contrary, they were important; all I wanted were tracings. I should have 
been exceedingly glad to have them done myself. If 1 was to make, as I had to 
make, anything like an analysis of the traffic, I must know the weight and the 
capacity of the carriages; all that information was necessary to enable a man to 
do the duty I had to do satisfactorily. You will, perhaps, allow me to add this: 
that I thought the carriages were a vast deal too heavy, and I w anted to know 
where the weight lay, and whether they could not be reduced. 

2600. You think that to arrive at a correct estimate of the cheapest mode in 
which the line could be worked, these details were necessary ?—I think so. 

2601. Colonel Sykes.] Did I understand you to say that one bungalow for the 
temporary residence of a railway officer cost 5,000 rupees? — He had permission 
to build one of 350 rupees, and two others at about 60 or 70; a mere room 
to remain in during the day. His expenses for those for his own accommodation 
were about 5,000 rupees. There may have been others that it was desirable he 
should erect. 

2602. Do you mean to say that permanent bungalows of that kind were 
requisite?—Not at all; these were merely temporary bungalows, which could be 
of no further use to the railway afterwards. 

2603. By what authority w'as that money spent; was it sanctioned, and by 
whom?—That was one of the cases that was not sanctioned; it was done, so far 
as I could judge, without any authority. 

2604. At whose loss has it been built?—It was afterwards sanctioned by the 
order of the Court of Directors. 

2605. Then the loss has fallen, in fact, upon the guaranteed capital ?—Yes. 




SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


1 77 


Lump, 7 ° die Junii, 1858 . 


MEMBERS PRESENT. 


Hon. H. G. Liddell, 
Mr. H. A. Bruce. 

M r. T. G. Baring. 
Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Colonel Sykes. 


Mr. Crawford. 
Mr. L. Seymour. 
Mr. Campbell. 
Mr. Cheetharn. 
Mr. C. Bruce. 


The Hon. H. G. LIDDELL, in the Chair. 


James IValker , Esq., called in ; and Examined. 

2606. Chairman .] I believe you are the Managing Director of the Madras 
Railway Company?—I am. 

2607. Will you give the Committee, in the fiist instance, the early 7, history of 
the company, with the dates of the concession of guarantees, and the various 
contracts and Acts?—There was a company formed for the purpose of construct¬ 
ing a railway at Madras in 184.5, but after two years’ unsuccessful application for 
a guarantee, it wound up and dissolved itself in 1847. 

2608. It dissolved itself in consequence of unsuccessful applications for guaran¬ 
tees ?—Yes. 

2609. Were those applications addressed in the usual form to the Court of 
Directors ?—I believe they were; I was not connected with that company myself, 
so that I cannot speak from personal knowledge; I was not in England in fact. 

2610. Give us the history of the company from the period at which you were 
connected with it ?—The present company was projected, and applied to the Court 
of Directors of the East India Company for a guarantee in May 1849. 

2611. Was the guarantee obtained in the form in which it was applied for by 
the company?—It was declined altogether at that time ; the Court replied, that 
until the result of the experiments already authorised had been seen, they were not 
disposed to grant any further guarantee. 

2612. Experiments where?—In Bengal and in Bombay. 

2613. You are referring, I presume, to the experimental lines set on foot, the 
East Indian and Great Indian Peninsular lines ?—Yes. 

2614. What steps did the Madras Railway Company take upon the receipt of 
these objections on the part of the Court of Directors?—After a time, namely, on 
the 20th February 1850, we renewed the application in a letter addressed to the 
East India Company. We expressed our great disappointment at the unfavour¬ 
able answer we had received to our application, and at hearing that the Court 
were of opinion that no further pecuniary support to undertakings of this nature 
could be granted until the result of the experiments already sanctioned was 
ascertained. We went on to say, that relying on the Honourable Court’s appre¬ 
ciation of the merits and claims of this line, we did not enter in our former appli¬ 
cations into details which a full exposition of them required. We proceeded to 
do so, and to submit that the two sections of line, as sanctioned in Bengal and 
Bombay, could only be taken as experiments so far as regards the cost of con¬ 
structions in their respective localities, and that no expectation could be entertained 
that, in their isolated and fragmentary state, they would afford any criterion of the 
value of railways in India generally as a commercial speculation, or of their public 
utility, and that it did not appear, therefore, to us in what way the result ot these 
experiments could bear on a line of an entirely opposite character in the Madras 
Presidency, or why the introduction of railways there should be postponed on 
their account. 

0.61. Z 2615. What 


J. Walker , Esq. 
7 June 1858. 






MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


17S 

2615. What was the result of that communication to the Court of Directors ?— 
I do not remember that there was any immediate result. 

2616. What length of lime, in fact, elapsed before you obtained the concession 
of your guarantee ?—After this letter was sent in a deputation went to the Board 
of Control, consisting of a number of Members of Parliament, who accompanied 
us there. 

2617. At what date was that deputation ?—I think it must have been in April 
1850. 

2618. Was that deputation successful in obtaining a favourable hearing?—It 
was only successful to the extent that we were given to understand that a reference 
would be made to the Madras Government on the subject. 

2619. Did the Madras Government report favourably upon the proposed 
scheme ?— I should mention that on the 11th of June following Lord Jocelyn 
brought on a motion in the House of Commons upon the subject which elicited 
some further assurance that the line should be made, and the question was re¬ 
ferred to India ; I am not aware of what the answer specifically from the Madras 
Government was, but in May 1852 another step was taken. 

2620. Are we to understand that two entire years passed between the time 
when the deputation waited upon the Board of Control and the next step to which 
you are going to refer?—As nearly as possible ; it was upwards of two years from 
the date of the letter I have just referred to. 

2621. In May 1852, what occurred ?—The East India Company conceded to 
the Railway Company a guarantee of 4£ per cent, interest on 500,000 /., for an 
experimental line, beginning at Madras and proceeding in a westerly direction. 

2622. In the direction of Arcot ?—Yes. 

2623. That was not a sufficient sum to complete the whole extent of line from 
Madras to Arcot, I presume ?—It was a rough estimate. 

2624. When did the works commence ?—The work may be said to have begun 
at Madras in July 1853 > Mr. Bruce, our chief engineer, who was before that 
in Bengal, arrived at Madras in March 1853, an( l one or two engineers arrived in 
April and May. The first sod was turned in July 1853. 

2625. When was the first portion of the line opened?—-The first portion of* the 
line was opened in July 1856. 

2626. What was the length of line opened?—Sixty-five miles. 

2627. When was the first contract for the experimental line obtained ?—In 

December 1852, and the Act of Incorporation of the company was passed and 
the Royal Assent given in June 1853. I* 1 September 1853 the railway company 

agreed to the proposal of the East India Company to undertake to extend the line 
to the western coast, with branches to Bangalore and to the foot of the Neilgherry 
Hills. For that purpose the East India Company agreed to increase the capital, on 
which they would guarantee an interest to 4,000,000 l. sterling. The Act of Par¬ 
liament was obtained for this purpose in June 1854, and the extended contract 
with the East India Company was signed in December 1855. 

2628. Subsequently to that, was not: a still further extension of the line 
applied lor and sanctioned?—Yes; it came in the form of a proposal from the 
East India Company to the railway company. 

2629. Describe the nature of that proposal?—It was a proposal to undertake 
the execution of a line from Madras, by Cuddapah and Bellary, to a junction with 
the line coming from Bombay to the southward. 

2630. The point of junction being in the neighbourhood of Kistna ?—To be 
determined hereafter. 

2631. Is that point of junction fixed at the present timer—It is not. 

2632. At the time that extension was agreed upon between the East India 
Company and the railway company, was any further extension of capital sug¬ 
gested ?—Yes. This was in September 1856, and the Court agreed to guarantee 
interest upon the capital that might be required for its execution. In the mean¬ 
time the railway company were authorised to raise, and did raise, a million of 
capital for that purpose. 

2633. Were the rates of interest guaranteed upon these (three) separate capitals 
(if I may use that expression), the same, or did they vary?—They varied. 

2634. Describe what the difference in rate was?—The rate of interest upon 
the first half million was four-and-a-half per cent., the next half million was 
issued at four-and-a-half, and was afterwards raised by the East India Company 
to five per cent.; then followed another issue of a million at four-and-three- 

quarters 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


per . ce . nt .; t ien ‘I* 1 - 6 ,"'“ s another issue for what we may call the south- 

wh, , ch 18 ‘ le nnginul line to the Malabar Coast, of one million, at five 

line f« ’ I 3 n IUn Sal,C ‘ I0necl for the north-west line, which is the Bellary 

n a’Jm !r°, fi 7 e P" Ce "'v At preSent ’ tl,e amount of ™pital upon which 
guaiantced interest is given is four millions. 1 

nn f 35 ; ■ T 1 h ^ t is the . whole amount of the capital belonging to your company 
upon which interest is guaranteed at the present time ?—Yes . P J 

•“ , 3 'r , “ this change in the rate of interest produce any dissatisfaction in the 
faction° e 0,1 8 ir| al shareholders?—It lias produced a great amount of dissatis- 


2637. W hat is the whole amount that has been raised by your railway com¬ 
pany and paid up to the present time into the East India Company’s treasury ?— 

+K ,Ur J )S f' n,eillS ° n a ^. coun ^ °f capital into the East India Company’s treasury up to 
this date are 2,754,690 L J J 1 

263b. W hat balance do they have at present?—As near as I can say, deducting 
the amount drawn in India up to the 30th April last, there is a balance of about 

2 639- Colonel Sykes.'] Exclusive or inclusive of advances in India?—That is, 
altei deducting all advances in India, so far as I can ascertain them up to the 

30th Apnl last, and I have taken the payments made by us here to the 31st 
IV1 ay. 

• Chairman.] Are all the original shares of the first half million paid up 

m full ?—Yes. 

2641. At 4 l per cent, r—At 4 £ per cent. 

2642. How much has been paid out of the second instalment of capital of half 
a million ?—It has been paid in full. 

2643. The third instalment, I think, of one million, was at 4 | per cent. ? — 
Yes. 


2644. W hat extent of that has been paid up ?—It is called up to the extent of 
15 /. per share, a share being 20 /., hut a great deal more has been paid by the 
shareholders in anticipation of calls. 

2645. Mr. C. Bruce .] The whole amount of the call has been paid ?—-Yes ; 
we have no arrears. 


2646. Chairman .] State the whole amount you have received from the East 
India Company as interest upon capital ?—The amount received from the East 
India Company for interest guaranteed up to this date is 260,756?. 12 s. 

2647. W hat amount has been paid to them from profits obtained upon the 
line already opened in repayment of the interest?—The account shows it to be 
1 7,5°5/. 17 5 - id., but there is a disputed amount of about 6,000/. which 
depends upon the time at which the maintenance of way is chargeable to capital, 
or to revenue ; that is not yet determined, and it may make a difference of 
3,000 /. or 4,000 /. 

2648. Will you now give the Committee the tonnage and rates of freight of 
materials and stores shipped to Madras and Beypoor ?—The total amount to the 
end of last year from the commencement was 85,458 tons. 

2649. Does that include rolling stock ?—We do not send out rolling stock, we 
send only the iron work of it, and the carriages and waggons are constructed in 
India. 

2650. Does that include locomotives?—Yes. 

2651. Colonel Sykes,] Are the carriages satisfactorily constructed in India ?— 
Yes, very much so; we only sent out model carriages, and all the rest are con¬ 
structed there. 

2652. Chairman .] Can you give us the rates of freight you have paid for the 
conveyance of that mass of material ?—The rates of freight have fluctuated a great 
deal; the average rate for the whole has been 1/. 8s. 6e/. per ton. I may 
observe, that we had great difficulty in regard to freight, as compared with the 
other two companies; the trade of Madras is very much more limited, and it 
appears from a statement published on good authority in Madras, that the average 
total amount of freight from England to Madras for three years before our opera¬ 
tions began, was only about 23,000 tons a year. 

2653. Then I presume the chances of a vessel obtaining a return cargo from 
Madras, are much less than from any other port ?—Yes, commerce is much more 
limited there; of course few vessels will take the whole amount of their cargo in 
dead weight; as a general rule, they will not take more than half, and therefore 

0.61. z 2 we 


J. Walker, Esq. 
7 June 18,58. 



J. IVdiker, Esq. 


7 June 1858. 


180 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

we had considerable difficulties to contend with in sending out our freight, which 
was almost all dead weight. 

2654. Is it not the case that shipowners always make a great difficulty in the 
conveyance of such articles as iron, and large heavy goods of that kind?—They 
did at first, but the objection is not so often raised now. There is a fact con¬ 
nected with this tonnage question, which I may mention as showing the elasticity 
of British commerce, that although, as I said, before our operations began, the 
whole tonnage from England to Madras was about 23,000 tons a year, we 
shipped to Madras in one year only, namely, in 1855? 4 °> 77 2 tons, almost entirely 
dead weight, .and that at an average freight of 1 1 . 6 s. 6 d. ; it did not appear 
sensibly to enhance the freight even. We had particular facilities in that year, 
because there was a large trade in the import of rice from India to this country, 
and vessels obtained charters accordingly, which facilitated our object in sending 
cargoes from here. 

265.5. Will you describe the progress and present state of your works, and the 
precise extent opened for traffic, and also what is at present under construction, 
giving the whole number of miles you have in hand? — On the 1st of July 1856, 
as I mentioned, we had opened 65 miles from Madras to Arcot; in May 1857 
we opened to Vellore, which is 81 miles from Madras; and on the 10th of last 
month everything was ready to open to Goriattum, making 97 miles from 
Madras; the line is expected to be completed to Vaniembady, about 120 miles from 
Madras, about the end of the year. 

2656. There are heavy bridging works, I think, both at Goriattum and Vaniem¬ 
bady ?—Between Goriattum and Vaniembady there are two bridges, which are 
and have been the obstruction, otherwise we might have opened further by this 
time. 

2657. Will you give us the names of the two rivers that are crossed?—The 
Goriattum River and the Palar River. Our engineers expect to open to Salem, 
which is about 200 miles from Madras, by the middle of next year; considerable 
sections of the western portion of the line are, at the same time, being com¬ 
pleted. 

2658. Can you state the number of miles actually in course of construction over 
the western portion ?—It is all in construction to Beypore, and by the end of 1859 
the whole line from Madras to Beypore, which is 420 miles, will be finished, with 
the exception, perhaps, of the Cauvery Bridge; hut the latest period at present 
assigned by the Government consulting engineer for the future opening from coast 
to coast, is the 1st of May i860. I have the Government consulting engineer’s 
report on the subject. 

2659. Is that the last report you have received ?—It came by the last mail 
from Captain Johnston. 

2660. Does that quite agree with a statement that was made the other day by 
Colonel Pears in regard to that report?—I think, in point of dates, it does not 
agree. 

2661. Did not Colonel Pears say that he had received a private communication 
from his successor, in which he expressed some doubts as to the opening of the 
line at the period there named ?—Yes ; he made a statement to that effect in 
answer to Question 2477 and following questions. 

2662. You say it will be opened in May, and Colonel Pears’s successor does 
not anticipate the opening until the end of the year?—Colonel Pears must be 
under a mistake as to the nature of Captain Johnston’s report. I have his 
report, and I will read it to the Committee. There has been some mistake in the 
private communication perhaps; but the report itself says that the latest period 
fixed is the 1st of May 1860; he says what I have just repeated, that if certain 
piers of the Cauvery Bridge can be got in, it may be opened by the end of 

1 8 59 * 

2663. Is it possible that Colonel Pears may have received any private communica¬ 
tion subsequently to the receipt of the report which you refer to, or is it merely 
a mistake on his part?--1 cannot say ; the report to which I refer came by the 
last mail. 

2664. Refer to Captain Johnston’s report, and give us the important particulars 
contained in it?—The date of the report is the 9th of April 1858, and it is con¬ 
tained in an extract from the Government Minutes of Consultation, under date the 
20th of April 1858. It is a copy furnished by the Government to our agent in 
Madras, and is signed as a true copy by Captain Johnston, the officer in question. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 181 

lie submits his report for the information of the Government, on his inspection of 
the whole line of railway from Vellore to the western terminus at Beypoore. He 
says there is every certainty of the line being fairly opened to Goriattum for 
traffic by the ist of May. Then he says, “ The opening of the line to Salem 
will, in fact, he determined by these bridges, for, as far as I could judge from the 
progress made, and from the information obligingly given me by the several railway 
officers, the entire works between Goriattum and Salem, with the exception of a 
heavy rock cutting through the Moroor pass, are likely to be finished and ready 
to receive the permanent way by.the end of this year. Should the season prove 
healthy, and labour continue to be abundant, Mr. Beattie feels satisfied that the 
work on the pass will be completed by June 1859, so that no delay in the opening 
of the line will be occasioned on that account.” He remarks that the masonry 
works in a number of districts he mentions, “and indeed, with very few exceptions, 
throughout the entire line, are remarkable for the excellent quality of their 
materials, and style of building. The work is carried on quite independent of 
the contract system, which, in the earlier stages of the railway proceedings, attained 
to a great extent, and the result is a most marked improvement in the building, 
over those generally on the open portion of the line. On the time of completion 
of the Cauvery bridge will depend the opening of the line to Beypoor, and 
should it happen that the whole of the foundations are got in this year, the super¬ 
structure with girders is likely, Mr. Bryce informed me, to be finished by July 
l 859. In this case we may expect to see the communication from coast to coast 
open by the end of that year. On the other hand, should the Cauvery freshes 
come down this season before all the foundations of the bridge are in, the opening 
of the line will probably be delayed for another three or four months, or till the 
1st of May i860 : ” that is the latest period he names. 

2665. Give us some account of the Bangalore branch, and tell us why that was 
not begun: when was it sanctioned?—That is part of our contract into which 
we entered under the arrangement made in September 1853. 

2666. Was I right in supposing that it is not yet commenced ?—It is not yet 
commenced; the Railway Company were desirous of commencing that branch; 
they attach great importance to it, and the Madras Government also have attached 
great importance to it; and so far as I am aware, the Court of Directors of the 
East India Company have also been desirous that it should be proceeded with. 

2667. Colonel Sykes.] Who has objected?—I have no knowledge who objects 
to it. I state, so far as I know, that the Court of Directors have supported the 
applications of the Railway Company on the subject. 

2668. Chairman .] Have you pressed the Court of Directors from time to time 
to hasten the sanction of that part?—We have done so repeatedly. We wrote to 
them on the 22 d of October 18555 ‘again on the 7th of December 1855* alK l 011 the 
24th of January 1857, and quite recently again, on the 28th of May last. The 
subject was also referred to in a letter to the agent of the 1st of November 1855. 
Those letters the Committee are aware come under the notice of the Court of 
Directors of the East India Company, and are sent out with their sanction. 

2669. Do I understand that the Railway Company are anxious to proceed with 
that portion of the line, that the Madras Government have reported favourably 
upon it, and that the East India Directors are also in favour of it?—So far as I 
know. 

2670. And yet no direct sanction has been obtained for the construction of 
that line ?—We have been refused permission to go on with it. 

2671. You are unable to say, of your own knowledge, where the objection 
arose?—I am n ot able from my own knowledge to state, but I can show what the 
Madras Government have said about it. 

2672. Mr. Camming Bruce.] Is there more than one quarter from which an 
objection to your proceeding could have come, seeing that the Court ol Directois 
were favourable to it?—I do not see more than one quaiter. 

2673. It must have been the Board of Control ?—I conclude so. 

2674. Upon what ground do you believe that the Court ot Directors weie 
favourable to it ?—I have no official knowledge of it. 

2675. What induces you to say that you believe them to be favourable; I 
have had communications with Directors of the East India Company, from whom 
1 have learnt that the Court have always been in favour of proceeding with this 
branch. I may say that I saw a late president of the Board ot Control on the 

0.6.. z 3 sub J ect 


J. Walker , Esq. 
7 June 1858. 



1 82 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


J. Walker , Esq. 


7 June 1858. 


subject of being allowed to go on with this Bangalore branch, and extend it 
to Bellary. 

2676. Now will you give us the history of the north west line by Bellary ; that 
portion of the line which is ultimately to meet the Great Indian Peninsular r— 
I have mentioned that the railway company undertook the execution of this line 
in September 1856. 

2677. At the suggestion of the East India Company ?—At the suggestion of 
the East India Company. 

2678. The draft of the contract was submitted in December 1856, was it not? 
—On the 8th of December 1856 we submitted for approval of the Court a draft 
of the contract for that line. 

2679. Was that contract completed there and then ?—No; we heard nothing 
of it until the 9th of June 1857, when the Court wrote objecting to make this a 
separate contract, as we had proposed to do ; the Board, on the 25th of June, 
pointed out that they could only undertake it as a separate contract, and that they 
had entertained the proposal on that understanding. On the 29th of July the 
Court wrote again, waving the objection to the separate contract, but proposing 
some further alteration in the terms of the contract. 

2680. What was the nature of those alterations?—In the letter from the Court 
it is referred to as a discrepancy or inconsistency between'certain articles in the 
clauses of the existing contract which they thought should be remedied. 

2681. Could you explain precisely what the points that they wished to modify 
were?—As it afterwards appeared, the points were these: they wished to limit the 
period within w'hich the Railway Company were to be at liberty to surrender the 
line if they pleased, and to receive back their money. 

2682. What was the difference between the period v\hich they last proposed, 
and the original period named in the contract for surrender ?—The contract gives 
the Railway Company liberty to surrender, and receive back their money at any 
time. 

2683. Upon six months’ notice, I believe?—Upon a certain notice. 

2684. What modifications did the Court of Directors propose upon that? — 
After the receipt of that letter from the Court of Directors, the Railway Board 
proposed, in order to save time and to facilitate an adjustment of these questions, 
that they should be left to be settled between the respective law advisers of the 
East India Company and the railway company. We understood that the same 
question had been raised by the Court in reference to the contract by the East 
India Railway Company for their Jubbulpore line ; and as the solicitors were 
the same for both companies, we thought it better that the question should be 
decided for one without agitating it for both. 

2685. Has any settlement been come to between the two solicitors?—I under¬ 
stand the contract of the East India Company has been settled, but ours is not 
yet completed. 

2686. Have you agreed to take that as a precedent?—We are willing to take 
it as a precedent. 

2687. Can you state from your own knowledge what the modifications are 
which have been introduced ?—The modifications amounted to this, that the 
power of surrender should be limited to the end of the first 50 years of the con¬ 
tract. The present power of surrender on the part of the railway company, 
extends over the whole time; they have liberty to surrender at any time upon 
giving a certain notice. 

2688. Under the proposed modifications, supposing the Railway Company to 
continue in possession for 50 years, they will for the remaining 49 years have no 
power of surrender under the terms of the contract ?—They would not have had, 
if they had agreed to the proposal. 

2689. But you have not agreed to the proposal ?—No. 

2690. Has the surveying and staking out of the line been proceeding in the 
meantime ? — Yes; it is surveyed and staked out now, I believe, as far as 
Bellary. 

2691. The whole of the surveys to Bellary have been completed ?—Not the 
detailed surveys; but the general survey of the line has been made in its course 
as far as Bellary. 

2692. Colonel Sykes.] You mean the route by Cuddapah, and not the route by 
Bangalore ?—Just so. 

2693. Chairman.'] 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 183 

2693. Chairman.'] Do you desire to offer any explanation upon any portion of 
Colonel Pears’ evidence, which I believe you have heard, or have had an oppor¬ 
tunity of reading?—I wish to offer some observations both on Mr. Bruce’s 
evidence and on that of Colonel Pears. 

2694. Confine yourself at present to Colonel Pears’ evidence ? —Both those 
gentlemen allege delay, which Mr. Bruce attributes to the system and to the action 
of the Madras Government, and which Colonel Pears attributes to the system'and, 
in a certain degree, to the independent existence of the Railway Company, and to 
its action. In their evidence some cases of delay are stated, the blame of which 
without some explanation, might rest in some degree upon the Railway Company 
and their officers in this country; and I am desirous of giving some explana¬ 
tions upon those ; of course, it is not to be supposed that cases of delay will not 
occur in an undertaking such as we have been engaged in for some years; but 
I hope to show the Committee that they have been very few. A few are alleged, 
and in those I shall be able to show that the circumstances are not always cor¬ 
rectly stated, and that the delay was less than that evidence would show. The first 
is in reference to the want of engineers. Mr. Bruce has stated, one reason of the 
delay which is referred to, in construction, has arisen from his not having a 
sufficient number of engineers. There is no doubt that if he had had more 
engineers at the outset, more work would have been done. I do not wish to 
deny that, and perhaps, seeing the course that events took, it would have been 
better if he had had a greater number of engineers ; but I wish to show the actual 
state of the case, and what were the reasons of the Board for not sending out the 
entire number which was originally asked for by Mr. Bruce. 

2695. What was the original number asked for by Mr. Bruce?—In January 
18,54 Mr. Bruce asked for nine engineers in addition to the seven he had, that is, 
one for each of the 16 districts from Madras to the Malabar coast. 

2696. Mr. Camming Bruce.] Each district containing how many miles?— 
About 25 miles ; and at that time it was proposed to make 16 districts; but 17 
were afterwards laid out That was on the assumption that he should proceed at 
once to the construction of the whole line. The Railway Board did not consider 
that course expedient, looking to the difficulties that were then experienced and 
anticipated in obtaining freight for the quantities of materials that had to be 
shipped from this country, and also to the economical construction of the rail¬ 
way. They were of opinion that it was desirable to confine, in the first instance, 
the operations of their engineers to the line between Madras and Vaniembady, 
and the line from the Malabar coast to Coimbatore, and they sent out instruc¬ 
tions accordingly, with the sanction of the East India Company. On that account 
they did not think it necessary to send out the number of engineers, not contem¬ 
plating proceedings upon that extended scale at first. In the meantime Mr. 
Bruce, anticipating that his requisition would be complied with in full, had 
appointed some of those engineers, as they came out, to some of the central dis¬ 
tricts, because they were most difficult of construction, and if not entered upon 
at once, were likely to interfere with the eventual through opening of the line. 
Having so placed them in charge of those districts, and the work having begun, 
he was unwilling to remove them, very properly, from the work, and in conse¬ 
quence of that, there was for a time a scarcity of engineers to undertake the other 
districts. The Railway Board, on learning the state of the case, supplied that 
want. 

2697. What was the additional number the Railway Company sanctioned r— 
They have gone on adding more and more engineers, and we have now 30 engi¬ 
neers. We have added them as the exigencies of the case required. 

2698. I think I am right in supposing that you are constructing the whole of 
your line of railway yourselves. You do not employ contractors upon any portion 
of it?—We have no European contractors. We have some small native con¬ 
tractors, but to a much less extent than was at first the case. It did not work 
very well, but was in some instances a cause of delay. We have been very anxious, 
and the Court of Directors and the Madras Government have also been anxious, 
to employ, as far as possible, the labour, the means, and the resources of the 
country ; and Colonel Pears, in one of his reports, has stated, and very truly, that 
delay has ensued from an anxiety to give every possible fair trial to the native 

0.61. z 4 contract 


J. Walker , Esq. 
7 June 1858. 



J. Walker. Esq. 


7 June 1858. 


184 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

contract system. The consequence of that has been that we have been obliged to 
take up works and finish them ourselves, and that explains, in fact, the delay that 
has occurred. 

2699. You corroborate that which we have already heard in evidence, that the 
native contractors have in several instances failed in the fulfilment of their engage¬ 
ments ?—Yes ; they have in the case of these very bridges, which create the 
delay, the Goriattum and Palar. There was considerable delay from a contractor 
having failed altogether; it was necessary that he should be allowed to try, and 
it is not always easy to get rid of a contractor. We are now' carrying on the 
work by our own engineers. In reference to the conduct of the Board, there is a 
letter published in the despatches of the Honourable Court of Directors to the 
Madras Government, in which the Board so fully explained their proceedings 
in regard to these engineers, that I shall be glad of an opportunity .of bringing 
it before the notice of the Committee; it is dated the 9th of December 1854, 
and is in answer to some representations received from the Madras Govern¬ 
ment, regarding the want of engineers to carry on the works. The Board 
replied to this effect: “In reply the Board respectfully request the Honourable 
Court will be pleased to refer to the correspondence which has previously 
passed on the subject, to my letters to your address on the 13th of March and 
10th of July last, and to that addressed to the agent, No. 21, of the 10th of 
April last. The views and intentions of the Board as to the course to be pursued 
in the construction of the line which were there fully set forth, received the 
approval of the Honourable Court, and have ever since guided the Board’s 
proceedings. For the reasons there stated, it was decided that the u'orks 
of construction should for the present be chiefly confined to the part of 
the line between Madras and Vaniambady, and for those reasons it was 
not deemed necessary to appoint so large an engineering staff as had been 
proposed at that time by the consulting engineer of the Madras Government, 
acting under different expectations of the extent of work to be simultaneously 
carried on. The Board, however, anxious to provide for all the engineering 
wants, proceeded at once to the appointment of two additional assistant en¬ 
gineers; and on the receipt of the representations from the agent of the chief 
engineer, in reply to letter No. 21, above mentioned, they applied, on the 19th 
of August last, to the Court, and received permission to appoint two more. 
These last engineers, it was stated in the letter to you of that date, completed the 
number and description of engineering staff which the Company’s officers in India 
concurred in reporting to be sufficient for carrying on and effecting the works 
and survey of the Cuddapah and Bellary line, included in the scale and in the 
manner detailed in the correspondence already quoted.*’ So that in December 
1854 Board sent cut the number of engineers required after thev received 
this information. Then they refer to their former proceedings, and "they say, 
“ This was done under the expectation that the construction of the intermediate 
or central part of the railway between Vaniambady and Coimbatore would not 
be proceeded with until that of the two ends was so far advanced that the 
engineers could be conveniently spared from them for the purpose. But the 
examination and survey of the district near Salem (including the Moroor Ghaut), 
had been previously commenced by three engineers; and Mr. Bruce considered 
it unwise to interrupt the work in the most difficult and laborious part of the 
whole line, in which progress had been made and experience gained, that would 
thereby, in a great degree, have been sacrificed, and, instead of removing the 
engineers from Madras to Vaniambady, allotted Messrs. Collins and Fenwick, 
with another engineer, to the latter duty. The Board are not disposed to 
blame their officers for having in this instance considered it right to depart from 
their instructions, for Mr. Bruce has given strong and satisfactory reasons for the 
course that was pursued.” 

2700. Does that complete the question as to the engineers ?—That completes 
the question as to the engineers. 

2701. Can you describe the extent of the Goriattum and Vaniambady bridges 
and works ?—I do not know that I can give you the precise extent of those two 
works. 

2702. Can you give us the estimate of the cost of the whole ?—I can give you 
the cost of some of the bridges we have built, but I do not know that I have with 

me 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 185 

me the estimate of all the bridges. The Goriattum Bridge consists of 24 
arches, of 30 feet span, making a length of about 900 feet; the estimate for 
it was, I believe, 47,000 rupees. The Palar Bridge consists of the same number 
of arches, and arches of the same span each, giving 900 feet, and the estimate 
for that was 64,000 rupees, there being additional difficulties in its foundation. 

2703. Have you any account to give of the Cauvery Bridge ?—That was esti¬ 
mated to consist of 22 arches of 60 feet, and the estimate for the cost was two 
lacs of rupees; the piers are required to be very high, the roadway being from40 
to 50 feet above the bed of the river. We have built two considerable bridges on 
the part of the line that is opened ; one is the bridge over the Cortilliar River, con¬ 
sisting of 26 arches, of 30 feet span, the total length being 1,000 feet, and width 
29 feet. It was built, I believe, in one year, and it cost 74,000 rupees. 

2704. I presume all these bridges and works are constructed for a double line 
of railway if required ?—They are. The largest bridge on the part of the line 
opened is the bridge over the Poiney River; it consists of 56 arches, of 30 feet 
span, giving a total length of 2,050 feet. It was built in about 18 months, or 
within two years, and cost about 140,000 rupees, which was considerably under 
the estimate. These two bridges are built of granite, and are described as very 
handsome bridges. The Government commented upon the excellence of their 
construction, and complimented our engineer on the Cortilliar Bridge. 

2705. Were the materials found on the spot?—Yes; they could not otherwise 
have been built for anything like the money. 

2706. What is the nature of the bed of those rivers ?—They are, for the most 
part, sandy. 

2707. Has much difficulty been found in obtaining foundations for the piles? 
—The practice has not been to pile it. There is a peculiar method of construc¬ 
tion adopted in India, by what are called wells. A paper has been read on that 
subject by Mr. Bruce, since he returned to this country, before the Institute of 
Civil Engineers, where the whole system will be found set forth. 

2708. Did you find that the expense of construction of these bridges was 
increased by the non-employment of contractors, or the reverse ? —I do not think we 
could have constructed them cheaper by the employment of contractors. In some 
of the bridges delay, and probably expense also, has been incurred through the 
desire to employ native contractors. 

2709. Have you any other explanations to give in reference to the evidence 
already adduced ?—Mr. Bruce also referred, as a cause of the construction of 
the line not having been proceeded with so rapidly as it otherwise would, to his 
not receiving some waggon iron work. Mr. Bruce, of course, as the Committee 
are aw T are, is no longer in the service of this company. It is right that it should 
be understood that Mr. Bruce having left India from the failure of his health in 
September 1856, has never returned, and he ceased from that time, I may say, 
to act as the chief engineer of the company, and is no longer connected with it; 
and, therefore, he does not appear as an officer of this company, nor have they any¬ 
thing to do with his appearance before this Committee. It is proper, in justice to 
all parties, that that should he mentioned. 

2710. In justice to Mr. Bruce, I may ask you this question, did he leave the 
service of the company, and did he return to England from India solely upon the 
score of his health r—Entirely so ; we regretted it much, and we consider that 
part of the delay that has ensued has arisen from the unfortunate circumstance 
of Mr. Bruce being compelled by illness to leave the service at the time he did. 
In respect to the iron work, Mr. Bruce, speaking from memory, and not having 
the dates before him, has fallen into a little error with reference to the delay, and 
makes it appear a great deal more than it really was; and I am anxious to show 
that the delay was not so great. I have a copy of the requisition, which is dated 
in July 1853 J it is a requisition for a number of things apparently contemplated 
to be employed when the railway should have been completed. He asks for 
locomotive engines of two descriptions, and carriages, carriage trucks, goods 
waggons, ballast waggons, luggage vans, and a variety of other things; and with 
regard to the carriages and trucks, he says, “ I do not think it desirable to send 
them out in a complete state, but only that the iron work be sent out. I am 
going through this, with a view partly to illustrate the conditions under which 
we worked in the early stage of the proceedings here, and to show the time that 
was necessarily consumed in complying with any requisition. The requisition 

0.61. A a was 


J. Walker, Esq. 
7 June 1858. 



«/. JValker, Esq. 


7 June 1853. 


186 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

was dated in July 1853; it was received by the Board on the 2d of September 
1853, an d was referred to Mr. Rendel, our consulting engineer at that time, on 
the 7th of that month. Mr. Rendel wrote to say that it would be desirable 
to have further information from Mr. Bruce, before proceeding with the re¬ 
quisitions. The Board was sorry to lose time by a reference back, and 
they wrote to Mr. Rendel again, requesting that he would give, if he could, 
upon such further information as they could individually afford, a report that 
would enable the Court to proceed with the requisition, as delay was very unad- 
visable. On the 18th of September he wrote, that being out of town, he was 
unable to prosecute the work till the first week in October. On the 20th of 
September I wrote again upon the subject, and urged the necessity of an imme¬ 
diate compliance, and again on the 3d and 10th of October to the same effect. We 
then saw Mr. Rendel, and arranged w 7 ith him that it was desirable that the ballast 
waggon iron work at least should be proceeded with, as that appeared to be the only 
part of the indent that could be immediately useful in construction. On the 7th 
of December he wrote to say that the plans would be ready in two or three weeks, 
and on the 19th of December the Board received the drawings; and his recom¬ 
mendation to invite parties to tender for iron work for 24 waggons. The Board, 
on the 28th of December, applied to the Court for sanction to invite tenders, and 
they received their sanction on the 11th of January. The tenders were then 
invited and received, and a tender accepted on the 30th of January. On the 2d 
of February the sanction of the Court was requested lor accepting it, and we 
received it on the 13th of February. The tender was accepted accordingly, and 
it was completed in July 1854, shipped on the 5th of that month, and received 
at Madras in December 1854, being about 18 months from the date of Mr. 
Bruce’s requisition. It will be seen that so far as the Railway Board were con¬ 
cerned, there w 7 as no delay in the matter, but it was due to the system, in a great 
degree, under which we at that time acted. 

2711. When you say it was due to the system under which you acted at that 
time, you refer to the period at which the ex officio director had not the power of 
giving immediate sanction to the purchase of any materials without consulting 
two branches of the Indian Government at home?—There were other difficulties 
at that time; we were obliged to refer in some anterior steps to the Government 
for sanction. 

2712. W’hat do you mean by anterior steps?—The course we had to pursue 
was this : wffien we received from India a requisition, we had to apply to the Court 
for permission to take steps to comply with it; on receipt of that, we had to refer 
it to our consulting engineer to report upon it, and as to the parties whom we should 
invite to tender for it. We had then to submit that report with our opinion to the 
Court, and request their sanction to our acting as there recommended; on the 
receipt of that sanction we proceeded to invite tenders ; the tenders were received, 
examined, and reported upon by our consulting engineer; then we had to 
write again to the East India Com pay for their sanction to our accepting that 
tender, and it was only on the receipt of that sanction that we could accept the 
tender and give the order. 

2713. That circuitous mode of proceeding is simplified considerably, is it not? 
—Yes, it is, very much ; in consequence of representations of the enormous waste 
of time arising from that, a letter from the Court, in June 1855, informed us that 
when supplies of materials from this country are once sanctioned by the Court, 
they do not require any further reference upon questions of detail, provided the 
ex officio director were a concurring party in the proceedings connected with the 
provision of the various articles, and that full particulars be recorded on the 
minutes. Then, subsequently to that, we received a further communication in 
answer to a representation we made to the Court again upon delays that still 
arose, because there was a necessity of referring a requisition received from 
India, with the sanction of the Indian Government, to the Court for their 
sanction; that involved a delay of about 20 or 25 days. We represented that 
to the Court; and in reply, “ with the view of diminishing the length of time 
required under the present arrangement for supplying requisitions from India, 
and concurring in the proposal of the directors of the Madras Railway Com- 
pany, the Couit authorise them, W'ith the concurrence of the ex ojfficio 
director, to comply at once with such indents from India as may have been 
sanctioned by the Madras Government; a full report of the proceedings being 

recorded 



. 8 ? 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

recorded in the minutes of the Railway Board which are submitted to the 
Lourt, this arrangement not being considered to apply to the creation of fresh 
appointments. ’ 

2714. Have you found that in consequence of those two modifications the busi¬ 
ness is now conducted in a more satisfactory and expeditious manner?_Very 

much so. If the Committee will allow me, I will show what can he done when 
we are at liberty to supply requisitions, as men of business would deal with it if 
it were them own affair. I have gone through the details of that first requisition 
of Mr. Bruce, which occupied j 8 months; that was a requisition from him of 
July 1853 > on the 19th August 1854 he made a requisition to the agent for the 
supply ol 100 axles and 200 wheels for the construction of railway waggons 
The agent forwarded it to the Government on the 23d ; it was received in Lon¬ 
don on the 6th October, and was immediately attended to. There was some diffi¬ 
culty about the tracing of the axle being imperfect, but we got over that. The 
Boaid applied to the Court to be allowed, under the emergency of the case, to 
ordei the wheels and axles at once, and that permission was granted ; they were 
shipped for India on the 9th December, and arrived out there in April 1855. 
They were shipped within four months of the date of Mr. Bruce’s requisition, 
and within two months of its receipt by the Board in England. They were 
received in Madras in eight months from the date of Mr. Bruce’s requisition, 
which was as expeditious as it could possibly be. 

2715. Mr. T. G. Baring .] Was not that before these changes took place?— 
Yes; the Court, on our application, it being a case of emergency, agreed to 
waive the usual forms. 

2716. Mr. A. H. Baring. ] Is that the only casein which they waived the usual 
forms?—i he only case, I believe. We could not go to them unless we had a case 
of emergency, and showed that it was one. 

2717. Chairman.'] The Court did not complain of the summary mode you 
adopted?—No, I believe it was satisfactory. 

2718. Even under the old system of strict supervision and circuitous procedure, 
do I understand you had, in cases of emergency, the power you have just 
described ?—There was no understood power; but, in any isolated case of 
extreme urgency, we acted upon it, although we could not expect the rules to be 
relaxed, unless we could show that it was a case of emergency. 

2719. When the long delay of 18 months occurred, might you not have repre¬ 
sented that as a case of emergency, and so have supplied the materials quicker? 
—It did not come to 11s as a case of emergency, but the other did. There was 
only one other case referred to by Mr. Bruce, in which he attributes delay to the 
Board in not having sent out certain iron pumps in time; and, I think, he quoted 
in the evidence a letter which he had recently received from one of the engineers, 
to say that they had just arrived, at the end of two years. That seems to require 
a little explanation on the part of the Board ; and I shall show that the time was 
15 months instead of two years. The requisition for them is dated July 1856; 
it was part of a very large and multifarious requisition. It was received on the 
1 ith October, and the Court’s sanction requested on the 20th. We received the 
sanction on the 13th of November, and the requisition was, on the same day, 
sent to the consulting engineer to report upon it; but just at that period, I regret 
to say, Mr. Rendel died, and of course his death caused considerable interruption ; 
at that same date also, Mr. Bruce himself arrived in England, and we took the 
opportunity of obtaining his valuable assistance in considering these requisitions, 
and arranging them. They required to be classified and arranged, so as to 
divide them into separate contracts, and, with Mr. Bruce and Mr. Rendel, jun., 
we went into the question. The contracts were classified, and tenders were 
invited on the 21st January, and sent to the consulting engineer for report 
on the 2d February ; that report was received on the 5th, and the tenders were 
finally accepted on the 13th February. The pumps were shipped to Madras in 
April, and arrived in October 1857; so that the time was from the end of July 
1856 to some period in October 1857, which would be 15 months. I think I 
have shown a reason why that was an exceptional case, and that the delay could 
not have been avoided by any act of the Board, owing to the unfortunate loss of 
our consulting engineer. 

0.61. 


J. Walker, Esq. 
7 June 1858. 


A A 2 


2720. Have 




188 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


J. Walker, Esq. 
7 June 1858. 


2720. Have those pumps been received ?—Yes ; they arrived in October 1857. 

I think these are the three cases that Mr. Bruce referred to. 

2721. Mr. Crawford.~\ Do you wish to make any observations to the Com¬ 
mittee on the question of bungalows?—Yes, I do; I see that Colonel Pears in 
his remarks upon the bungalow question, and more especially with reference to 
the bungalow of the engineer in the sixth district, stated that that engineer had 
expended a sum of 5,000 rupees in the construction of a bungalow for his own 
accommodation ; the cost of that bungalow, instead of being 5.000 rupees, was, 

I am glad to say, only 2,020 rupees. The Madras Government disallowed the 
expenditure incurred in excess of the amount they had sanctioned. 

2722. Colonel Sykes.] They disallowed the excess above what?—Above 350 
rupees ; there was a great deal of difference of opinion and a great deal of dis¬ 
cussion about the amount to be allowed to engineers for their bungalow's; the 
Board disapproved very much of their engineer’s proceeding in going to that 
extent of outlay; but eventually, on a full consideration of the subject, we 
addressed the agent on that subject, under date 12th February J857, to this 
effect:—“ With reference to the resolution of the Madras Government declining 
to sanction a sum of 2,500 rupees for engineers’ and inspectors’ bungalows, included 
in the estimates for the first and second sections of district 4, I am directed 
to observe that when 350 rupees were originally authorised for each of the 
temporary bungalows for engineers, that sum was fixed, on the supposition 
that the buildings in question were intended solely for the personal accommoda¬ 
tion of the engineers, to shelter them while superintending works in their vicinity ; 
and that they were to last for perhaps only a few months, or a season at 
most. For such a purpose the Board are disposed to concur in the opinion 
expressed by the Government that a sufficiently commodious temporary build¬ 
ing might be erected for 350 rupees. But, as under the system of construction 
pursued, accommodation is required, not only for the engineer himself, but for 
his office and establishment, for the safe custody of his cash chest, con¬ 
taining often large sums of money, for the examination and settlement of the 
accounts of the labourers and contractors employed on the district, and other 
similar duties, for the convenient discharge of which considerable space is re¬ 
quired, the Board are of opinion that a building of the description shown by the 
accompanying plan, and which it is understood can be erected for about 900 
rupees, is not more than sufficient. It seems necessary that in each district one 
such building should be provided, and the Board trust, that on the circumstances 
being explained, the Government will see reason to reconsider its decision on the 
subject.” That has been sanctioned, and the sum now allowed is 900 rupees, 

2723. Mr. Crawford .] How did you deal with the sum that was disallowed ? 
—-After censuring the engineer for his proceedings, it appeared that the bungalow 
which was erected was of a more permanent character than was contemplated or 
intended ; and it was reported to us that it might be useful for the residence of some 
of the officers of the Company eventually, when the line was finished and opened. 
In consequence of that, and under all the circumstances, we relieved the engineer 
of the necessity of being personally liable for the excess beyond the expenditure 
that he was allowed to make, and requested the Court to allow it to go as a charge 
in the construction, 

2724. Do you wish to make any observations upon any other of the points 
referred to in the evidence of previous witnesses?—There are some other points 
of Colonel Pears’ evidence which I am desirous of offering some explanation upon, 
such as Colonel Pears’ observations on the failure of the system, and as to the 
expense of the line. The cost of the first 71 miles of the line has been equal to 
something less than 6,000/. per mile, so far as can be at present ascertained ; that 
includes everything, engineering, and general superintendence, Indian manage¬ 
ment, stores, permanent way, English management, the estimated amount required 
to complete the laying down of the telegraph, the proportion of the expenses of 
the general office, or terminus at Madras, and the proportion of the expenses of the 
great woikshops at Madras, the salary of the chief engineer, and altogether it comes 
to 59 j/ 86 rupees per mile, which also includes the two bridges I have mentioned ; at 
1 s - >otf. that would be equivalent 105,484/.; at 2 s. the rupee, which is the more cur¬ 
rent value, it would be 5,978 L Colonel Pears has made several observations as to 

the 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 189 

the increased cost of construction arising from the system pursued, and particularly 
from the existence of a railway board, and above all, in London. In analysing 
the elements of this cost, at, say 6,000 /., the materials for permanent way sent 
from this country, have cost, when landed at Madras, at the rate of 2,291 /. per 
mile; that is, exclusive of sleepers; it is quite clear, therefore, that unless 
Colonel Pears means to say that those materials could have been purchased and 
shipped, and sent to India at a less cost by the Government than by the Com¬ 
pany, the only reduction which could be effected must be in India. I am quite 
prepared to show that it is impossible for any Government to get these materials 
cheaper than we have got them, and I am quite sure they could not have got 
the freight at anything like the money; no Government can; and therefore I say, 
and I say it with every confidence, that so far as 2,291 ^ ° u t of 6,000/. goes, it 
is utterly impossible for the Government to effect any saving ; I believe it would 
cost them a great deal more. In addition to that, I am not aware that in India the 
Government could have any means of getting the line constructed cheaper, 
except by that influence which the Government always has in India in obtaining 
labour; no doubt the Government have powers and facilities at times in pro¬ 
curing labour which a private company has not, but I doubt whether, in the end, 
labour obtained by any other influence than that of good wages and punctual 
payment will be cheaper. As Colonel Pears has not assigned any particular 
ground for the opinion that the railway should be made so much cheaper by 
the Government, I cannot, of course, address myself to his reasons. I can only 
express my opinion, that although in one respect the Government might make it 
cheaper it left free, the Company, if left free, might also make it at much less 
expense, both of time and money. 

2725. Mr. A. H. Baring .] Have you any personal experience of the Madras 
Presidency?—I have been there, but I have merely passed through the Presi¬ 
dency of Madras as a traveller. Colonel Pears has also stated his belief that 
the rest of the railway will not be constructed at anything like the figure of 6,000/. 
per mile ; I do not know exactly on what grounds he founds that opinion; 
but my opinion is different; and so far as we have seen we have no reason to doubt 
that we shall conclude the whole of that line at the cost that we originally esti¬ 
mated it at, namely 7,000 l. per mile; and with regard to the time within which 
it will be executed, and the alleged delay, I have already read from Captain John¬ 
ston’s report the time at which an impartial observer like himself considers that 
the railway will be completed. When we undertook this extension of the line to 
the Malabar coast, we stated that it might be completed in five years from 
January 1854; and it appears that if certain bridge piers can be got in, it will be 
completed by the end of the year 1859 '■> an d looking at the delays that we have 
been subjected to, and which we could not have anticipated, and to the ordinary 
relation of execution to estimate, I do not think there is any delay that calls for 
particular remark. When Colonel Pears speaks of our having been engaged on 
the railway from the beginning of 1853, I wish to say that it was not until the 
end of that year that we agreed even to undertake it; we were engaged on an 
experimental section only of 50 or 60 miles from July 1853, but we could not 
begin this new line until the beginning of 1854. We had only, in 1853, a contract 
with the Company to make 50 or 60 miles, and we could not anticipate that after 
being three or four years in obtaining a concession of guarantee on half a million, 
that in three months after we got it we should be asked to undertake lines 
that would cost three and a half millions more. I am anxious to add, in reference 
to the anticipation of the increased cost of the line, that the portion which has 
been completed is laid with heavy rails, and in consequence of that the permanent 
way material sent out from England to Madras cost above 2,200 l. per mile; and 
the cost of these materials for the rest of the line, to be laid down with light rails, 
will be only 1,674/., which makes a difference of 600/. in our favour per mile, 
I am quite at a loss to know on what grounds it is assumed that the cost of the 
remaining portion of the line will be so much greater. I think Colonel Pears is 
also in error in the quotation he makes about the estimated cost of the earthwork, 
and its cost as actually executed by our engineers on the portion of the line that 
is opened. I am prepared with the details, but I do not propose to take up the 
time of the Committee by referring to them. 

2726. Colonel Sykes.\ You have stated that you obtained your freight cheaper 
than it could have been obtained by the Government, or by the Court of 
Directors ; do you know what has been the maximum and minimum freight for 

0.61. * a a 3 dead 


J. Walker , Esq. 
7 June 1858. 



J. Walker, Esq. 
7 June 1858. 


190 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

dead weight paid by the Court of Directors since your railway commenced?— 
My answer did not apply to the Court of Directors particularly, but to any 
government. 

2727. Do you know what has been the maximum and minimum freight paid 
by the Court of Directors for dead weight since you commenced ?—I do not. 

2728. Upon what ground do you infer that the Court has not obtained freight 
as cheap as your company has done?—From time to time, for my own guidance 
in engaging freight, I have made it my business to ascertain what the East India 
Company were paying for freight similar to that which I was engaged in securing. 
I have invariably found that they were obliged to pay a higher rate, sometimes 
10, and sometimes 20 per cent, higher; the East India Company proceed in all 
these things by inviting tenders, under certain conditions, which are considered 
by the shipping interest rather onerous ; they involve considerable delay, which 
to the shipowner is a loss. He is precluded from making other arrangements 
for his ship while an answer to his tender is being received, and the consequence 
is, that the shipowners prefer to engage with us, at a considerably lower freight, 
when they can come into the office and get their business done at once. 

2729. Then it is not your practice to proceed by tender ?—Very rarely. 

2730. You are aware that the Court always proceed by public tender?—Yes. 

2731. Offering to any one who chooses to tender the means of taking up a 
contract?—Yes. 

2732. Do you not consider that you run some risk, in consequence of taking 
freight under those circumstances?—No, I do not think we run any particular 
risk; we take freight subject to the approval of the ship by our underwriter. 
We engage freight upon which insurance can be had at the lowest current rate. 
Our ordinary rates on ships with general cargoes have been 30 s. per cent., and 
we have had no losses. 

2733. With regard to the outlay for bungalows, you say that the real amount 
expended was 2,020 rupees, and not 5,000 rupees?—Yes; and it appears in the 
published books. 

2734. The outlay, nevertheless, was incurred in violation of prescribed rules ?—• 
Yes. 

2735. Had you other instances of independent proceedings on the part of your 
officers?—The regulated allowance was exceeded in several instances. 

2736. In any case did you make the party who violated your rules stand the 
consequences ?—If you mean to ask whether we made him pay the excess out of 
his own pocket, we did not. 

2737. In all these cases of violation of rules the loss fell on the guaranteed 
capital ?—It went to the charge of construction. We expressed to the engineers 
at the time our opinion, and we censured them when we thought they de¬ 
served it. 

2738. Have you thought it worth your while to compare the progress of your 
railway with the progress of railway construction in Great Britain?—I cannot 
say that I have; the conditions are so very dissimilar that it did not occur to me 
that any comparison could be of much practical use. I may say that I think we 
have been at a disadvantage in the mind of the public ill the comparison of our 
line with those of Bengal and Bombay, which were so much earlier in the field, 
and the construction of which began so much before us. 

2739. I am asking you with regard to Europe ; have you any impression that 
your progress in India has been as satisfactory as the progress upon lines generally 
in Great Britain ?—I think, making allowance for the different circumstances 
under which railways are made, the progress has been quite as satisfactory. 

2740. With the same means of procuring rails and dead weight, and other 
things which you can procure on the spot in India aud on the spot here?—The 
novelty of the undertaking in India altogether, the distance to which the perma¬ 
nent way materials must be sent, the great difficulty of procuring skilled labour, 
the difficulty of supplying the place of an officer disabled by sickness or removed 
by death, and many other difficulties, are of a nature to enhance the time of 
execution. 

2741. You have not thought it worth your while to make an absolute compa¬ 
rison between any number of miles of construction of your railway and any line 
similarly circumstanced in Great Britain ?—I have not. I think when some of the 
witnesses have spoken of completing this line in four years, they have made cal¬ 
culations far more sanguine than experience can possibly bear out. I do not 

think 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

think the Government could have made a line of this description, of 420 miles, 
within four years from its commencement, it could only be done, if at all, at an 
enormous increased expenditure, but my belief is, that with any expenditure, it 
could not have been completed and opened in four years from the commencement. 

2742. As managing director, you are satisfied with the progress of your rail¬ 
way as hitherto made ?—On the whole we are satisfied. We are aware that the 
progress has not been what we expected ; we expected, as I have said, that it 
might be completed by the beginning of 1859, but things have occurred which I 
may mention, which have proved causes of delay that we did not anticipate; we 
have lost time in the first place from our great desire to encourage the system of 
native contracts, and to make use of the resources of the country. There has 
been an unlooked for difficulty in obtaining labour in the jungle districts, and 
also from the increased demand for labour for a time on public works. Two or 
three years ago there was a sudden increase of expenditure on public works in 
India, and it was carried on to a great extent at Madras, and produced a great 
increase to the demand for labour, and in that way materially interfered in certain 
quarters with our works ; that is recorded in the Government’s own orders, under 
date July 1856. We have also been delayed by the unfortunate changes we 
could not anticipate in the office of our chief engineer ; Mr. Bruce’s sudden and 
unexpected illness deprived us of his services. It was necessary that another 
officer should take temporary charge, and he again had to be succeeded some 
months later by an officer appointed from this country, who necessarily arrived 
new to the work ; delay was also occasioned by a reference to England as to the 
line to be taken between Salem and Paul Ghaut, and the commencement of the 
Cauvery bridge was delayed in consequence, and the works were afterwards 
suspended there, and the stonemasons were dispersed, by a special order of 
the consulting engineer of the Government, until a certain alternative line should 
be examined. There was also a deficiency of skilled European inspectors for 
a time. The Madras Government were opposed to our engineers drawing on 
England for that class of men, and the engineers complained, and I think with 
reason, that our progress was impeded by the want of them, particularly for 
the construction of the bridges ; we have suffered at times also from the pressing 
of carts and bullocks by regiments moving through the country. 

2743. With the exception of the interference by the Government in taking 
labour from you for public works, and by pressing carts and bullocks for the 
movement of troops, none of the delay has arisen from interference or from any 
action of the Government upon the railway ?—There are some additional causes 
of delay ; but I think they are of minor consequence to those I have mentioned. 

2744. Chairman. ] Was not the employment of native contractors especially 
urged upon you by the Government?—I think it was our own proposal as well, 
and we were not at all averse to it. It was our wish to employ native contractors 
if we could with advantage, and we should be now desirous to do so if it were 
possible. We were delayed by the stoppages of works; there was a stoppage of 
works on the line at the Shevaroy Hills, and a more considerable one afterwards 
at Salem. 

2745. Colonel Sykes.'] Caused by what ?—In the first instance, it was an order 
that a certain alternative line of deviation might be examined ; the engineers com¬ 
plained that in consequence of that, they were obliged to stop works and to dis¬ 
charge the labourers, whom there was a great deal of difficulty in collecting again ; 
many of these districts were in unhealthy situations, and for that reason also it 
was difficult to get labour. 

2746. Did that proposal of the alteration of the line originate with the Govern¬ 
ment or with the engineers ?—It originated in both cases with the Government 
consulting engineer. 

2747. For what object, political or commercial ?—I believe it was from an idea 
that a better line might be found. 

2748. Politically or commercially ?—In a railway point of view ; it was thought 
that better gradients could be found. The Board thought the effect of these 
stoppages so°material that they brought the matter under the notice of the Court 
of Directors, in the shape of a draft to their agent, which was approved by the 
Court, and sent out. In regard to the stoppage in the Salem district, it involved 
a stoppage in works upon a part of a line on which 200,000 rupees was stated to 
have been laid out. 

0.61. a a 4 2749. During 


J. IValher , Esq. 
7 June 1858. 


A A 4 



192 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


J. Walker, Esq. 
7 June 1858. 


2749. During what length of time?—The stoppage was not of long duration, 
because the Government declined taking- upon themselves the responsibility of 
stopping the works, although the works had already been stopped for about six 
weeks; and they directed, under the circumstances, that the Company’s engineer 
or agent should go on with the line on his own responsibility. 

2750. By whose authority were the works stopped ?—By the order of the 
Government consulting engineer, whom we regarded as the organ of the Govern¬ 
ment. 

2751. In spite of all those stoppages, you are, on the whole, satisfied with the 
progress you have made?—Yes; there has been a difficulty in obtaining land for 
brick-fields. 

2752. With all that, you are, on the whole, satisfied with the progress you 
have made ?—Yes, considering the difficulties we had. 

2753. Have your shares always been at a premium ?—No, they have not 
always been at a premium ; they have often been not at a premium. 

2754. At what period ?—At this moment certain of our shares are at a 
discount. 

2755. Are those the 4I or 5 per cent, shares?—The and 41 percent, 

shares. 

2756. Are any of the 5 per cent, shares at a discount?—I rather think they 
have been, but they are now about par. 

2757. They have been at a discount ?—I think so. 

2758. Chairman .] Is not that a natural consequence of the variety of the rate 
of interest ?—Of course when there is a large amount of that description of stock 
and shares in the market, one sort carrying a higher rate of interest, those at a 
lower rate of interest will naturally go to a discount; and in this particular case, 
it is a curious thing that the 4! per cents, which ought to stand midway in value 
between the 4% and 5 per cent, shares, never are at that value. The public 
appear to have a great objection to fractional interest, and they are very averse 
to having anything to do with these shares. I believe the existence of those 
varying rates on the Madras Railway, have had a great effect in depreciating the 
value of the shares in the market. It gives an appearance of complication, 
which the public do not understand, and they cannot be made to understand that 
the stock of the company, bearing an inferior guarantee to that of the other com¬ 
pany, is not also in some degree of inferior value and quality. There is no 
foundation for it, the guarantee is the same in all cases, but the share-buying 
public are very sensitive people. 

2759. Mr. Crawford.'] Is it not one effect of the variety of rates of interest that 
different and conflicting interests exist among the shareholders?—They do or may 
exist. 

2760. During the recent depression in the value of securities was there not a 
disposition on the part of the shareholders of the lower guaranteed capital to 
return the railway upon the hands of the East India Company?—Some of the 
shareholders of the 4 l and 4 f per cent, shares, expressed themselves to that 
effect. 

2761. Do you think it undesirable that such a difference of interest and value 
should exist in any company?—It is very undesirable. 

2762. It disturbs that uniformity of feeling and that harmony of interest which 
exists in all the other railways which have 5 per cent, guaranteed upon the whole 
of their capital ?—Certainly, it is desirable that the interest of the shareholders 
in a company should be identical, as far as possible. 

2763. Colonel Sykes.] Have you had any difficulty in getting the allotments 
of shares paid up ?—Sometimes, but not much. 

2764. On the whole* you think it has been a popular investment?—In England 
it has. 

2765. Consequent upon the guarantee ?—Consequent upon the guarantee. 

2766. Without that guarantee I presume there would have been very little 
chance of raising the capital at home for railways in India ?—I do not think the 
capital could have been raised without the guarantee. 

2767. It is owing to the Government having guaranteed a sum of money that 
the railways have taken their origin, and have progressed as they are now doing ? 
—The guarantee was necessary to their existence. 

2768. Mr, Cheetham.~\ I think you stated that the cost of the line, so far as it 
is now constructed, is 5,400 1 . a mile ?—It depends upon how- you turn the rupees 

into 



1 03 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

into English money ; we have a regular rate of exchange with the East India 
Company, which is 1 s. 10 d ., and if turned into English money at that rate it is 
the sum you mention, or 5,480/.; but if taken at 2 s. it would be very nearly 
6,000 /. per mile. 

2769. What was the estimated cost?—We estimated that we should complete 
the whole line from coast to coast for 7,000 Z. per mile. 

2770. So far, you are under the original estimate ?—Yes, excepting that that 
estimate I have mentioned does not include rolling stock; it includes everything 
but that; the value of the rolling stock must depend upon the amount of traffic; 
it may be taken at some 700Z. or 800Z. per mile in our case; so that if we can 
execute the rest of the line at the rate we have done the first part, the 7,000/. will 
cover the rolling stock and everything else. 

2771. As regards the time; how does the duration of time occupied in its con¬ 
struction compare with the estimated time?—We estimated that we should com¬ 
plete the line in five years from January 1854. The latest accounts we have, and 
which I have read to-day, are from the Government consulting engineer, and his 
opinion is, that if certain piers of a bridge can be got in before the monsoon, it 
may be completed by the end of 1859, instead of in January 1859, as we con¬ 
templated. 

2772. Did the Indian Government or did your own engineer lay out your line? 
—The Indian Government directed the course to be taken by the railway, but 
our engineers surveyed and laid out the line. 

2773. Are you aware why they chose the course by Cuddapa instead of by 
Bangalore?—No, I cannot tell what their reasons were; the railway company 
were very desirous at one lime of going the other way, and prolonging the branch 
from Bangalore and Bellary, and they made more than one representation on the 
subject; but it was overruled, and they were directed to proceed by the way of 
Cuddapa. 

2774. Is that a longer line than by Bangalore ?—The line by Cuddapa is some¬ 
what shorter than that by Bangalore. 

2775. I believe you heard the evidence of Colonel Pears?—Yes. 

2776. Do you agree with him in his opinion that Government would construct 
all these railways in India in much shorter time and at much less cost than a 
company ?—That is not my opinion. I do not think that the Government could 
do it at less cost- I think it possible they might do it in less time ; but I think 
the railway company, if left entirely free, could do it both at less cost and in less 
time than the Government could. 

2777. When you say the railway company could “ if left entirely free,”.do 
you mean that you would remove all superintendence on the part of the Govern¬ 
ment p_I am not an advocate for doing that. Colonel Pears goes upon the 
hypothesis of the Government having free and sole action ; I say that if the 
company had free and sole action, they could do it in less time, and for less 
money. We do not object to Government supervision and control; on the con¬ 
trary, we think, if properly exercised, it is very valuable and very useful. 

2778. Have you any suggestions to make to the Committee as to any improved 
mode of supervision by "the Government over your proceedings? — 1 think 
the controlling supervision of the Government has been exercised in too 
minute a way; and I think the manner in which it has been exercised, particu¬ 
larly during the latter part of the operations of the company, has been of a harsh 

and* rather arbitrary character. 

2779. And the result of that mode of operation, in your opinion, has been 

delay:_It has evidently irritated and vexed our servants there, which can never 

be conducive to their good working, but in some cases it has been productive of 
actual delay. It is not, however, so much in regard to Government interference 
in the construction of the line that we have to complain, as of the interference 
with the working of the line after it has been constructed. 

2780. Do you mean in the traffic department and in the carriage of passengers? 
_Yes ; in the mode in which the whole traffic of the line is conducted. 

2781. Mr. D. Seymour. ] With regard to the preference given to the Cuddapa 
line over the Bangalore line, I believe the country through which the line passes 
by Cuddapa is a much more important, more cultivated, and more populous 
country than the line by Bangalore, is it not?—The districts immediately round 
Cuddapa are fertile and productive; but taking the line as a whole, I do not 

0.61. Bb think 


r . Walker, Es:j, 


7 June 1858, 





194 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

think it is more populous, and I question whether it is more productive than the 
other. 

2782. Cuddapa is one great seat of the indigo manufacture, is it not?—Such 
indigo manufacture as there is in Madras ; it is not extensive. 

2783. The greater part of the Madras indigo is produced in the Cuddapa dis¬ 
trict, is it not ?—Yes. 

2784. It opens the whole country up to the Northern Circars, does it not ?— 
Starting from Madras it is very little in the road to them. 

2785. If the railway were opened to Cuddapa, people going from Madras to 
Guntore or Hyderabad would take the Cuddapa line r—My answer is, that I do 
not think people going from Guntore would go to Cuddapa ; people going by 
Hyderabad might. 

2786. Is it not the fact that there has been a great want of communication 
between the Cuddapa and Bellary districts and Madras? —So we understand. 

2787. It takes now, I think, 10 days to go from Cuddapa to Madras?—I think 
it was one of the most impracticable roads in the Madras Presidency. 

2788. So that the whole of the upper part of the Madras Presidency is cut off 
from communication with Madras?—I do not admit that; it is in evidence from 
the collector of those districts about Bellary, that a considerable part of the cotton 
and other commodities of the Cuddapa district would be equally served bv a line 
from Bellary to Bangalore, and our present line. The produce of that country 
finds its way down to Madras by different roads than by Cuddapa. 

2789. In laying out capital, and guaranteeing railways, you must look as far as 
you can to all the different parts of the Madras Presidency?—Yes. 

2790. You should not expend all your capital in one part, and leave another 
part without communication?—Those are considerations for the Government, but, 
in a commercial point of view, we should make a railway where we were likely to 
meet with most traffic, and we consider that that would be cheapest and best done 
by going from Bangalore to Bellary. 

2791. That would depend, I suppose, upon the large military establishment at 
Bangalore?—No ; upon Bellary, and upon the products of all the country between 
Bangalore, Bellary, and Cuddapa. I will read a letter from the Collector of Bel¬ 
lary in answer to an inquiry from Colonel Pears, in the report of the Government, 
with reference to the preference to be given to the Bangalore line. He says, 
“ Simply as affecting the direct trade between this district and the eastern coast, 
there is not much to choose between the two lines. But, as connecting that 
commerce with Bangalore, Salem, Coimbatore, and the southern districts, and as 
connecting the two great military stations of Bangalore and Bellary, there can 
be But little doubt but that the Bangalore line should be selected for first 
execution.” The Madras Government have been much in favour of the line 
by Bangalore. 

2792. There are opinions both ways, are there not?—I have not seen any 
opinion the other way. 

2793. There were some reports, I believe, of your own engineer on the Cuddapa 
line?—No; the report of the engineer had reference, not to the comparative merits 
of a line by Cuddapa to Bellarv, or by Bangalore to Bellary, but to the merits of 
a line by Madras to Cuddapa by Naghery, as opposed to the line by the Doorenalla 
Pass to Cuddapa. I have not seen any opinion from India in favour of going to 
Bellary by Cuddapa rather than by Bangalore. 

2794. You would consider, would you not, from the reports, that the country 
between Bellary and Cuddapa is the far more important of the two?—The 
evidence we have before us shows that, so far as these districts were concerned, in 
the neighbourhood of Bellary they would be equally well served by either line. 

I have just read that opinion of the collector. Cotton is not grown as much 
at Cuddapa or Bellary, as at the intermediate places between. 

2795. The cotton is grown about half way between Bellary and Cuddapa?— 
Yes, and therefore the collector says there is little to choose between the two lines ; 
but as regards the commerce with the south of India, this is the much better line 
of the two. 

2796. Mr. Cheetham.] Are you personally acquainted with this district ?— 

I have never been nearer than Bangalore. Colonel Pears, in a report to the 
Madras Government, on the subject of this Bangalore and Bellary line, writes to 
this effect: “It seems to me that the work which could confer the greatest 

amount 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 195 

amount of benefit upon both Government and people would be the completion of 
the wanting link between Bangalore and Bellary. By this measure the social and 
political ends aimed at by establishing a connexion between the two Presidencies, 
would be accomplished as well, better I think I can show, than by the line through 
Cuddapa; but that district would derive little benefit from it. " We are not yet 
arrived at that stage in our proceedings when we can lay rails solely for the 
advantage of this or that particular district; nevertheless, if there be a district in 
this part of India that merits such high consideration, it is Cuddapa, and sooner 
or later, I think, a line should be laid, for this among other purposes, direct from 
Bellary across the northern talooks of Cuddapa and towards the coast. The 
line from Bellary direct to Bangalore would be over a tract of country the most 
favourable of all I have yet seen for the construction of a railway.” Colonel 
Pears goes on to state, “ It will be seen that while this line would confer, in a 
commercial and social point of view, greater benefits on the country at laro-e 
than the direct line from Madras through Cuddapa would, I propose it also as 
a present substitute for the latter, in the attainment of the political ends aimed at 
by the connexion betv\een Madras and Bombay.” 

2797. Mr. D. Seymour.'] What do you understand by the social and military 
advantages of that line?—The advantages are stated to be of a political and 
military and commercial and social character, and I think that in employing the 
word “ social ” the intention was to signify that it would be for the convenience 
of the people of the country and for the passenger traffic. If the Committee wish 
to see it, I have a printed copy of the representations which we made, with the 
reasons we had for preferring one line to the other. 

2798. In any case do you not think, from your knowledge of the country, that 
the line from Madras to Cuddapa ought to be made for the sake of the inhabitants 
living to the north of Madras ?—I think a line should be made from Madras to Cud¬ 
dapa ; but I think the object of completing the communication between Bombay 
and Madras, which was the main object, as I understood, would have been better 
secured through Bangalore than through Cuddapa. I think if that line, after 
reaching Cuddapa, were afterwards carried more in the Hyderabad direction, 
while the Bangalore line was extended to Bellary, the object of railway com¬ 
munication through that part of India would be better effected. 

2799. The difficulty of communication between Madras and all the northern 
districts is very great indeed at present, is it not?—Only to Cuddapa. 

2800. But Cuddapa lies between Madras and the northern districts?—People 
pass round the hills ; they do not go through Cuddapa. 

2801. Are you aware that the rate of travelling there for the greatest part of 
the year is only nine miles a day ?—I am not aware. 

2802. Are you aware that the general principle at first laid down was, that main 
lines should be finished first?—Yes; lam sorry that the East India Company 
have departed from that principle in other cases. 

2803. Are you aware that steps have been taken to improve the harbour at 
Bey pore ?—No; I am not aware that any steps have been taken. 

2804. You do not know that reports have been called for with a view of 
improving it ? — I do not think any steps have been taken. I have the report of 
Captain Johnston, in which he says that he has examined Beypore Harbour, and 
he concludes by saying that one of our engineers has been examining it, and is of 
opinion “ that by extending the reef to the south, and throwing out a groin from the 
beach, anchorage may be secured for vessels drawing as much as 10 feet of water. 
It is very desirable that Mr. Lovell should be placed in possession of the several 
reports and surveys called for in extract Minutes of Consultation, No. 35, dated 
18th January 1858, from the Public Work Department, but which have not yet 
been furnished.” 

2805. Are you aware that the object of the Government has been to have that 
harbour improved by the time the railway is finished ?—I am not aware what 
the Government have done; the railway company brought it under their notice 
some time ago, and requested that something might he done. 

2806. It is stated by Colonel Pears that you have one engineer to every 25 
miles ?—We have more now. 

2807. That is about half the number of engineers who are employed on the 
East India Railway ?—I do not know the number, but 1 should think more than 
half. We have at present one engineer to every 25 miles, and a divisional 

0.61. B b 2 engineer 


J. Walker, Esq. 


7 June 1858. 



J. Walker, Esq. 
7 June 1858. 


196 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

engineer over every three of those gentlemen, so that we have four engineers upon 
75 miles. 

2808. I believe upon the East India Railway there is an engineer to every 10 
miles?—I cannot say. 

2809. Do you think that a register of shares at Madras would be advantageous ? 
—The Board considered it a matter of very little importance. We had no reason 
to suppose that shares would be taken to any extent in Madras. 

2810. Would it not be desirable to encourage the natives to invest in a public 
undertaking of this kind ?—No doubt; but the rate of interest, and the sort of 
antagonism which has unfortunately existed between the officers of the railway 
company and the officers of the Government, would discourage the natives from 
embarking in the undertaking. 

2811. Would you not give them an opportunity, if they wished, of investing 
their money in that kind of property ?—For the railway company it is a question 
of cost; it involves an additional expense and additional risk in having two 
registers ; the company have not considered it worth their while hitherto to run 
that risk, or to incur that expense, for the very indefinite prospect of obtaining 
shareholders in Madras. 

2812. Is cotton still carried along the road by the side of the railway?—I 
believe it is to a certain extent; it is partly carried on the railway and partly on 
the road. 

2813. Do you consider that it would be a good thing to have depdts of salt in 
the interior of the country ?—We have urged it on the Government more than 
once. 

2814. It would be, in your opinion, a great benefit to the people ?—It would 
be a great benefit to every one; the Government being the producers and vendors 
of the salt. 

2815. I believe you have only two trains a day between Madras and Vellore? 
—Two trains a day each way. 

2816. Mr. T. G. Baring.] Do you, as representing the Board of Directors, 
agree with the statements made by Mr. Bruce, that considerable delay has arisen 
from the mode of supervision exercised by the Madras Government?—I do not 
think considerable delay has occurred ; some has. 

2817. You say that you believe the manner of exercising supervision has been 
harsh and arbitrary, and that your servants have been irritated by the manner in 
which the supervision was exercised ?—Yes. 

2818. During the existence of your Board was the conduct of the chief 
engineer ever brought under the notice of the Board by the Madras Govern¬ 
ment?—Yes ; that is, the Madras Government have complained to the Court of 
Directors, and the Court of Directors have brought the matter under the obser¬ 
vation of our Board. 

2819. Do you consider that your servants are free from blame in the manner 
in which they have conducted themselves towards the officers of the Government ? 
—I do not consider that our servants were altogether free from blame occa¬ 
sionally. I think on some occasions the Government probably had reason to find 
fault. 

2820. Did you write a letter to your agent at Madras on that subject, dated 
15th July 1855 ?—Yes. 

2821. I believe in that letter you did not conceal your opinion that you viewed 
with considerable displeasure the conduct of your own chief engineer ?—On that 
occasion such an opinion was expressed, I believe, and the Board in that letter 
censured some parts of Mr. Bruce’s proceedings. 

2822. Have you seen any reason to withdraw from the opinion expressed in 
that letter ?—On subsequent information it appeared that the Board had censured 
Mr. Bruce without sufficient cause, and they took an opportunity of so recording 
in a subsequent letter. 

2823. The rest of the letter contained the expression of opinion of the Board 
of Directors?—That was the expression of the opinion of the Railway Board. 

2824. That being so, do you think that you can fairly say that any delay that 
occurred was the fault of the officers of the Government ?—I think it was on 
more than one occasion. 

2825. Notwithstanding the opinion expressed in that letter?—Notwithstanding 
that opinion ; I have instanced cases with which that letter had nothing to do, and 
which have occurred since. 


2826. What 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 197 

2826. What other cases have occurred since, which you have not mentioned ? 
—I have mentioned delay, arising from the stoppage oi the works. 

2827. Are there any other cases which you have not yet mentioned ?—We 
consider that delay arose from the withholding* of funds on some occasions. 

2828. Are you aware that on one occasion your agent agreed with the con¬ 
sulting engineer upon that point ?—There were two or three occasions, and I can 
show you the opinion of the Board upon the subject. 

2829. I ask you whether you are aware that, upon one of these occasions, 
your own agent at Madias agreed with the course which the consulting engineer 
of the Government took?—He did on one occasion; but there were others in 
which we thought it necessary to address the Court of Directors on the subject 
of a want of funds. We addressed the Court on the 15th December 1856, with 
reference to a case which occurred in September; there had been previous occa¬ 
sions, and the Board considered that a recurrence of them called for a representa¬ 
tion to the Court of Directors. 

2830. Was any change made in the system in consequence of those repre¬ 
sentations?—We have had no complaint since. 

2831. Was there any other instance in which delay was caused by the super¬ 
vision at Madras?—Delay was caused, I think, by the opposition on the part of 
the Madras Government to our engineer being allowed to draw for English trained 
subordinate assistants, such as inspectors, draughtsmen, and so on. As a general 
rule, the Court have laid down that we are only to send out what is indented for 
with the sanction of the Madras Government; the Madras Government were 
opposed to it, but the question was referred to this country, and the Court, oil 
our representation, agreed to our sending out the men required, and we sent out 
a considerable number. Delay has also at times occurred from the Madras Go¬ 
vernment ignoring the contents of our letters to the agent, or our instructions for 
his conduct. These letters go out of course with the sanction of the East India 
Company, but notwithstanding that, the Madras Government at times do not take 
any notice of them, and fresh references are made to England, which occasion loss 
•of time. 

2832. Have there been any other causes of delay ?—I consider that our officers’ 
time and attention have been taken up very much by correspondence and refe¬ 
rences which such a minute interference occasions, and the requirements of the 
consulting engineer in the way of drawings and information have been very con¬ 
siderable and very minute ; it has occurred that he has sent back a drawing to 
an engineer as not being sufficiently distinct for the purpose. On one occa¬ 
sion the engineer sent the drawing home, to request that an opinion might be 
taken upon it; we referred it to our consulting engineer, and he said that the 
drawing was all that was necessary. These things, of course, take up a great deal 
of time. 

2833. Mr. A. H. Baring.'] Was that the case of the bridge over the Kudul- 
lioondy ?—No; that was the case of a bridge over the Thoota River. 

2834. Mr. 71 G. Baring. ] Have you any other causes of delay to mention ?— 
It does not occur to me that there uere any other cases of direct action causing 
delay. 

2835. Do you think that if your chief engineer at Madras had shown consider¬ 
able inattention to the orders of the Government, and delayed furnishing informa¬ 
tion when called upon to furnish it, that would afford some explanation of the 
points to which you have referred ?—111 that particular case ; I think the letter to 
which you refer had reference to some proceedings in regard to station building 
at Madras chiefly. 

2836. Will you refer to and read the 23d paragraph of the letter of the 15th July 
1855 ?—“ Without attributing to Mr. Bruce an intention of wilfully opposing the 
orders of Government, the Board must say that the correspondence under review 
exhibits evidence of inattention to its orders and wishes, of unaccountable tardiness 
in furnishing information, with an unreasonable impatience of supervision and 
control, and a tendency to indulge in objectionable freedom of language in comment¬ 
ing on the acts and decisions of Government and others when opposed to his own 
opinions or disapproving of his own acts or those of his subordinates.” I wish 
to say that the Board made it a matter of complaint to the Court of Directors that 

0.61. * b b 3 letters 


J. Walker. Esq. 
7 June 1858. 



J. Walker, Esq. 


7 June 1858. 


198 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

letters written by them to their own agent for his information and guidance 
should have been published and printed as they have been. 

2837. That being your opinion of your chief engineer, you can hardly attribute 
blame to the Government consulting engineer in that matter ?—So far as relates 
to the events which took place before the date of this letter, that opinion as to 
the effect of the Government interference would no doubt be qualified. 

2838. You mean, that previous to the date of that letter you would say that 
your own officers were not altogether free from blame in the transaction which 
took place?—Not altogether. 

2839. At the same time you wish on the whole to express your opinion that 
your chief engineer, Mr. Bruce, was an able and efficient servant of the company ? 
—He was an able and efficient servant, and a most zealous servant. 

2840. That being your opinion, from what do you consider that the difference 
of opinion arose between the Government and your engineer?—I think it arose 
perhaps on one side from a want of sufficient consideration for the susceptibilities 
of our engineer, and on the other, from a little impatience on his part of observa¬ 
tion upon his proceedings by the consulting engineer. 

2841. The result being some delay in the construction of the railway?—Yes, 
but trifling; I do not think that the delay that arose from differences of that kind 
was material. 

2842. Then you do not agree with your engineer, who says that he could have 
completed the line in four years, or do you agree with the Government engineer, 
who says that the Government could have completed it in four years?—Certainly 
not; I think it is much too sanguine a view to take of the matter; I have no 
doubt our chief engineer could and would, if he had had all the means he wished, 
have finished it in less time ; but I do not think that even then he could have 
done it in four years. 

2843. Chairman .] You consider that the fault rather was in the excess of zeal 
on either side?—I think so; they were both very zealous officers, and, like all 
zealous men, they were a little impatient. 

2844. Have you anv further statement to make on the conduct of your chief 
engineer?—Our opinion of our chief engineer ought not to be drawn Irom a single 
letter, which never came before the public with our sanction and concurrence; it 
was a letter written by the Board to its agent for his information, and that of the 
officer whom it concerned, but not for the public, and we protested and objected to 
this publication, and to the publication of other letters by the Government. 

284.5. Mr. A. H. Baring.'] Do you remember a reference being made, about the 
end of March 1856, to your consulting engineer in England concerning the bridge 
over the Kudulhoondy ?—Yes. 

2846. At what time did Mr. Rendle die?—He died in November 1856. 

2847. That is adduced by Colonel Pears as an instance of delay on the part of 
the company. I wish you to explain it?—I am desirous to show, that so far from 
a reference to this country and to the Railway Board having caused delay, it was 
by reference to this Board, and by the course they took upon it, that that question, 
which had been under discussion for two or three years, was finally settled at once. 
It is one of the two instances adduced by Colonel Pears of delay caused by the 
existence of a Board in London. I wish also to observe, that it is a work of greater 
magnitude than might be supposed upon reading the evidence of Colonel Pears. He 
stated it was, perhaps, 500 feet in length. I hold in my hand a report of our con¬ 
sulting engineer, Mr. Hawkshavv, in which he says, “ The bridge would be in two 
lengths, separated from each other by a short embankment; one length would be 
360 feet, the other 780 feet, and the aggregate length 1,140 feet.” The question 
of the best mode of crossing that estuary was under discussion for a long time, 
and was the subject of correspondence backwards and forwards, and finally a 
reference was made to Mr. Rendle about it. We wrote, on his recommendation, 
for some further information on the subject, and I believe the engineer was 
to make a viaduct with iron piles. At the date of Mr. Bruce being obliged 
to leave India the drawings for that bridge had not been completed. We 
required them in England as a guide by which to furnish the iron piles; after Mr. 
Bruce arrived here, the drawings followed, and it was found that some informa¬ 
tion was still required about the bed of the river, and that in the absence of that 

• we 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). , 99 


we could not proceed to order the iron piles or the materials for the bridge. We 
consulted with Mr. Hawkshaw as to what, under the circumstances, it was best to 
do ; and at his recommendation we resolved to erect a temporary bridge. We 
ordered the materials here and sent them out, and an end was put to that question, 
which had been under discussion for years. 


J. Walker, Esq. 


7 June 1858. 


Jovis , 10° die Junii , 1858. 


Hon. H. G. Liddell, 
Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. T. G. Bating. 
Mr. C. Bruce. 

Mr. Campbell. 

Mr. Cheetham. 


MEMBERS PRESENT: 


Mr. Crawford. 
Mr. Glyn. 

Mr. D. Seymour. 
Mr. Stephenson. 
Col. Sykes. 


Honourable H. G. LIDDELL, in the Chair. 


J • Walker, Esq., called in ; and further Examined. 

2848. Chairman.\ IN reference to the publication of the remarks, or the 
strictures, made by Government, will you give us some information as to the 
publication of those remarks in the pubiic papers; did not your officers frequently 
see those remarks in the papers before they came to them officially, and before 
they had any means of giving their explanations ?—Yes ; and we made a repre¬ 
sentation to the Court of Directors on the subject. 

2849. You made it a ground of complaint?—We made the publication of 
those censures in the public newspapers, and also in the large publications issued 
by the Government, a ground of complaint. 

2850. What was the nature of the repl\ T you received from the Court?—The 
Court refilled that they had addressed the Madras Government on the subject. 

28.51. Do you know wheiher the Madras Government have taken any steps 
towards a more equal publication of correspondence since that time ?—We 
objected altogether to the publication of censures on our officers in the local 
newspapers, independently of the replies of those officers being admitted; we con¬ 
sidered it a most objectionable practice; we thought it could lead to no good, and 
we saw it was productive of much harm. We considered that the Madras public 
had nothing to do with the opinion of our Board, or in point of fact of the Govern¬ 
ment officers as to their proceedings in construction. The Madras public were 
not our shareholders; it is in evidence that very few shares were held in Madras - y 
and we could not see what good could be effected by such publication, whereas 
the evils were apparent. 

2852. Speaking from memory, 1 think that Colonel Pears has expressed a 
strong opinion upon the subject of the publication of this information; I think 
he stated that lie considered great public advantage would be derived from that. 
As I understand, you do not agree with that opinion so expressed by Colonel 
Pears?—We do not, and I believe the Court of Directors concur in our opinion 
upon that subject. 

2853. As a matter of fact, have the Madras Government restricted the publi¬ 
cation of those observations in consequence of your representation r—The practice 
of publishing continued, although perhaps in a less degree, for some time after 
we had hoped that it would have been put a stop to by the orders of the home 
authorities, but latterly it appears to have ceased altogether in the newspapers. 

28.54. Mr* Bruce. 1 You considered that bringing public opinion generally 
to bear upon the execution of the works was of no advantage?—Not in the way 
in which it was done ; these were generally censures upon the progress of the 
works in a particular district, or at least they were so considered by the public 
and by most people. Colonel Pears has explained that he did not mean them as 
censures, but merely as observations; but the result which was produced by their 
publication too clearly shows what the effect of the publication of those obser¬ 
vations was. 

0.61. B B 4 2855. What 


J. Walker , Esq. 


lo June 1858. 


B B 4 









200 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


J. Walker, Esq. 
10 June 1858. 


2855. What were those results ?—Considerable irritation on the part of those 
who considered themselves aggrieved by them ; they also complained that while 
these observations were published in the public newspapers, and made the com¬ 
mon subject of talk at Madras, their explanations were not published equally in 
the newspapers. 

2856. Chairman.'] Do I understand you to express an opinion adverse to any 
publicity given to the correspondence that passes between the railway officials 
and the Government upon the subject of railway construction?—! would not go 
so far as that, but I think it requires great discretion as to what is to be published, 
and what is not to be published. I do not think that any company can carry 
on its works satisfactorily, or without disadvantage, if its orders and letters 
addressed to its agents are published in extenso for general information. 

2857. Am I right in supposing that it was in consequence of the publication 
of this correspondence that a large number of your engineers drew up a memo¬ 
rial expressing their views upon the subject?—We received a memorial from 
our engineers, complaining of the terms that had been applied to their conduct 
in some of these observations, and of the publication of the observations, without 
their replies and explanations being also published. 

2858. Great dissatisfaction, I think, was expressed in that memorial?—Great 
dissatisfaction. 

2859. Can you furnish the Committee with a copy of that memorial?—Yes. 

2860. Do you know whether it was signed by the whole body of engineers 
employed upon your line ?—My impression is, that it was signed by all the 
engineers emp^ed upon the line, with the exception of the chief engineer, who 
did not sign it. 

2861. Who was the chief engineer at the time?—Mr. Bruce. I ought to add, 
that one of the engineers afterwards expressed his desire to withdraw his sig¬ 
nature from it, on the ground, I believe, that he had no individual cause of com¬ 
plaint as to the publication of observations on his work. 

2862. Do you believe the statements contained in that memorial to be sub¬ 
stantially true ?—The Board considered that the complaints of their engineers 
were not without foundation, and in acknowdedging* the receipt of the memorial 
they stated that the subject had already attracted their attention before the 
receipt of the memorial, and had been made the subject of a representation from 
them to the Court of Directors. 

2863. Have you ever heard what followed that representation to the Court of 
Directors, whether any steps were taken in consequence of it ?—1 have no 
means of knowing what steps the Court took. 

2864. Mr. Crawford .] To whom is the memorial addressed?—To the Chair¬ 
man and the Directors of the Madras Railway Company. 

2865. What is the date of it ?—The date is that of the 7 th May 1856 . 

2866. How did it reach your hands?—It was forwarded direct by the engi¬ 
neers. 

2867. You did not receive it through your agent at Madras?—We did not. 

2868. Was any intimation given to the Government at Madras by the 
engineers that they had forwarded this memorial to your Board ? —Not that I 
am aware of. I should say that this memorial was originally handed by the 
engineers to the agent, as all correspondence is ordered to proceed through the 
agent; the agent returned it to them, with the observation that, in the public 
service, joint memorials of that description were not allowed, and the engineers 
afterwards forwarded it to us direct. 

2869. Chairman .] In regard to the supply of money to meet currrent ex¬ 
penses, when an application was made for money, it was made by your agent 
and on his authority, was it not ?—All applications for money, and all commu¬ 
nications with the Government, are made by our agent. 

2870. Do you think it is possible that the agent could, in any case, agree with 
the Government engineer in refusing money for which he himself had pre¬ 
viously applied ?—1 suppose that question refers to a reply of Colonel Pears in 
his examination. 

2871. Refer to Question 2516 , in the answer to which Colonel Pears speaks 
of a communication with Mr. Smalley in these terms : “ Was there one case in 
which Mr. Smalley agreed with you as to the necessity of delaying the advance ?— 
Yes; writing in November 1854 , he says, ‘ With this explanation, perhaps, you 
"Will no lunger demur to obtain the sanction of the Government for the advances.’ ,r 

Do 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 201 

Do you remember that case, and can you explain it ?— The quotation from Mr. J- Walker, Esq. 

Smalley’s letter on that occasion is a little obscure, but he requests that the -- 

Government will make the advances required, and I think what he meant to 10 June 1858, 
express was that he entered into the views of the Government consulting 
engineer as to the necessity of stopping supplies of money where complete and 
correct accounts were not delivered. It is clear he did not oppose the appli¬ 
cation for money, but, on the contrary, requested that the sanction would be 
given for it. It appears to me that it is more a general expression of his opinion 
that unless complete and correct accounts were obtained, advances should not 
continue to be made to the engineers. That is how I read it. 

2872. Am I right in supposing that the correct and complete accounts to 
which Mr. Smalley refers were workshop accounts ?—In part. 

2873. Do you remember any case in which your agent made a direct obser¬ 
vation to your Board in reference to the non-receipt of any accounts?—The 
agent has frequently observed upon the want of punctuality and promptness in 
the rendering of accounts. 

2874. What has been the general tenor of the explanations furnished on 
the part of the engineer?—They have sometimes been satisfactory, and some¬ 
times not satisfactory. The Board have been of opinion that there was more 
delay at times in furnishing accounts than there should have been. 

2875. I think you stated that, in your opinion, this reply of Mr. Smalley 
ought to be taken in a general sense, as expressing an opinion that, as a general 
rule, the accounts should be rendered punctually, and in a complete form ?— 

I think he goes a little further than that; he agrees apparently, from this 
extract, with the Government officer, that unless accounts are obtained in the 
way in which he thinks they ought to be, advances of money should not con¬ 
tinue to be made. 

2876. What steps did the Board take in consequence of this representation? 

—I believe they took no steps on that occasion in reference to this. 

2877. Do I understand that the supplies asked for were refused by the 
Government engineer with the sanction of the agent ?—On this occasion they 
were not refused. 

2878. Then there was merely a remonstrance on the part of the Government, 
and the money was afterwards supplied ?—On this occasion there was no refusal 
of the money. 

2879. There was a demur ?—There had been a demur, but the money was 
given ; on subsequent occasions the Board have felt it necessary to address the 
Court of Directors on the subject of advances of money being whhheld. 

2880. What was the nature of the reply of the Court of Directors to that?— 

The Court of Directors brought the subject under the consideration of the 
Madras Government, and the explanation furnished by Colonel Pears on the 
subject was again submitted to us by the Court of Directors. 

2881. Did that explanation appear satisfactory to you?—No, it did not. 

2882. Did you again address the Court upon the subject ? —We have had no 
occasion to complain since that time. 

2883. Then, in fact, the evil of which you complained has been rectified?— 

Yes, it has ; the occasion to which I referred of our addressing the Court of 
Directors on the subject was the withholding of funds in August and September 
1856 , which was considerably after the period to which your first question 
referred. 

2884. We have heard that there was some delay in sending in the final set¬ 
tlement of Mr. Bruce’s accounts; was that delay satisfactorily accounted for ?— 

All his accounts were satisfactorily settled. . 

2885. What was the balance that remained ultimately unaccounted tor?—It 
was something infinitesimal, but 1 do not remember what. 

2886. I believe it was 2$</., was it not?—It was some infinitesimal balance. 

2887. Upon an expenditure of how much ?—I suppose it may have amounted 
to half a million sterling; the complaint, I think, to which you have been 
referring, was about the delay that took place in furnishing the balances ol the 
different district engineers at the date of Mr. Bruce’s departure; the Govern¬ 
ment expressed a wish that these balances should be rendered up to the date ot 
Mr Bruce’s departure; they were called for, and a considerable delay took place 
in finally rendering these accounts; that was owing in part to the circumstances 
of Mr. Bruce’s sudden departure from India on account of extreme illness, and 

0.61. Cc to 



202 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


J. Walker, Esq. 
10 June 1858. 


to what I think was a very impolitic proceeding on the part of our authorities in 
allowing Mr. Bruce’s assistant to leave India along with him. Mr. Bruce was 
in a very precarious state of health, and the medical officers did not think it was 
expedient that he should go without sojne one to take care of him. On applica¬ 
tion, Mr. Bruce’s assistant in his office, one of our engineers, was allowed to 
accompany him, under the impression that he would go as far as Aden, and then 
return ; 011 arrival there, the medical men were of opinion that it was still desir¬ 
able that he should proceed further with Mr. Bruce, and he did so, and, in fact, 
came to England with him. We sent him back as soon as we could, but there 
was a delay of about four months between the time of Mr. Bruce’s departure and 
this gentleman’s return; of course, that interfered very much with the adjust¬ 
ment of their accounts, and before they could be rendered, it was necessary that 
each particular district account should be balanced with the chief engineer’s 
account, and the whole, in fact, brought to a balance. A good deal of corre¬ 
spondence was necessary, and also references backwards and forwards. I should 
mention that the auditor of the engineer’s accounts was at that time also taken 
up with the examination and settlement of some store accounts, so that altogether 
there were many impediments in the way. These balances were, however, eventu¬ 
ally rendered in a satisfactory manner, and Mr. Bruce’s account closed satis¬ 
factorily. 

2888. The departure of the two persons responsible for the rendering of these 
accounts you consider sufficient to explain the delay complained of?—In a great 
degree. 

2889. Mr. Crawford .] Upon the accounts rendered by Mr. Bruce there was 
only a difference of 2 hd. between the whole sum received during his service in 
India and the sum that he accounted for?—I think that may be about the 
equivalent in English money. 

2890. Am I right in supposing that from the system adopted in carrying out 
your works in India those accounts may be considered as divisible into two 
large heads, the expenditure upon the construction, and the expenditure on the 
workshops ?—Y es. 

2891. With regard to the workshops, is it not a matter of considerable 
difficulty to render the accounts required in the detailed form required, so as to 
show the exact cost of every article produced in the workshops?—Very great. 

2892. And some delay in a department recently organised by a gentleman 
whose experience had been in this country and with English workmen, might be 
reasonably expected when he came to deal in a foreign country with foreign 
workmen, whose language and manners he was unacquainted with ?—Un¬ 
doubtedly. 

2893. Have you any form that you could produce to the Committee, showing 
the nature of the accounts which the engineers are required to deliver monthly 
to your agent in Madras ?—We have a complete set of forms of accounts. 

2894. You are not aware of any delay of any consequence having occurred as 
a habit in sending in these accounts to the agent ?—The agent has complained 
of delay. 

2895. Chairman.'] Colonel Pears has stated in his evidence that your engi¬ 
neer’s estimate was 15,000 rupees per mile, but that the work cost 30,000 
rupees; can you explain that, and will you state whether it is quite correct?— 

I cannot explain that statement. 

2896. Is that statement correct in the first place?—I should think not. So 
far as I am informed, the estimated cost of the works in India, without stations, 
was 16,261 rupees per mile; that included earthwork and bridges. The actual 
cost, so far as I am in a position to state, including some extra work, was about 
18,000 rupees per mile. 

2897. I refer you to Question 2399 , in which Colonel Pears states that the 
estimates of the railway officers themselves, exclusive of the stations, which 
should not cost above 70 /. or 80 /. per mile, were 1 , 500 /. per mile; can you 
offer any explanation upon that statement?—My impression is, that the esti¬ 
mated cost of the work, without stations, was 16,261 rupees. 

2898. Is it not the case that the terminal sections of any line of railway are 
always more expensive in construction, in consequence of the stations that, have 
to be made with a view to the ultimate completion of the line ?—It is not so, 
except with regard to the terminal station itself; and in estimating the cost of the 
portions of railway completed, we only charge them with a proportionate amount 

of 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


C0St of the terminal station, spreading it over the line which it is to 

belt 0, 

fli ^ T ' G ‘ Barin §') I I find ’ in a letter before me, that in one of the 

is 9 »nn t le amc ! unt s , tated , b y the Government is 14,020 rupees per mile, which 
s Moo rupees less than the estimated outlay on the first district ?—That in 

not r in , clude . the cost of bridges; whereas the sum I have 
stated includes the cost of the bridges. 

2900. Chairman .] l)o you remember an answer made by Colonel Pears that 
le Government could have executed the works at 50 per cent, less than the 
railway company ; and do you consider that that statement would have been 
Dome out by facts, had they undertaken the construction ?—I think he after¬ 
wards explained that he did not mean to state that in positive terms, but that 
lie only meant to express an opinion that the Government could have executed 
it at much less cost. 


2901 Is it your opinion that the Government could, under any circum¬ 
stances have constructed a line much cheaper than you have done ?_I do not 

think they could, and I so stated in my first day’s examination. 

2902. In regard to time, could they have constructed the line quicker, in your 
opinion ?—I also stated in my last examination that if the Government were, 
entirely free to act without control, they might undoubtedly have executed 
the work somewhat quicker, but so in like manner could the Railway Company, 
lhe delay has been attributed by all the witnesses to the double government 
as it has been called, rather than to anything else. 

2 9 ° 3 * Colonel Pears, in further support of the view he took, quotes the case 
ot the Colleroon Bridge ; how does the case stand with reference to that ?—I do 
not know the cost of the Colleroon Bridge; that does not belong to our railway 
company. J 

2904. W ere your bridges built quicker and cheaper than the bridge con¬ 
strue ed over the Colleroon?—I should not like to say that, because I have not 
the means of ascertaining; I have no knowledge of the cost or the time 
occupied. 

2 9 ° 5 - Did not the Madras Government censure the chief engineer for having 
.ommenced the Goriattum Bridge without the sanction of the Government?-— 
There was a complaint made. 

2906. Did they not afterwards find out that they had made a mistake in so 
doing?—Yes; the Government afterwards admitted that Mr. Bruce did not, in 
point of fact, commence the bridge, and that is referred to in the letter which 
I have handed in to-day. 

2907. Did they not censure him for having commenced some temporary shops 
at Madras without sanction, when, in point of fact, he had the orders of your 
agent to do so ?—Mr. Bruce acted under the instructions of the agent in that case 
in commencing a temporary workshop. 

2908. Has the agent the power of ordering, previous to obtaining the sanction 
of Government, the construction of any works upon the line ?—That was an 
irregularity on his part on which the Board animadverted. 

2909. The blame attaches, if at all, to the agent, and not to the engineer?— 
So far as the engineer conformed with the instructions he received from the 
agent, he has no direct dealing with the Government. 

2910. Was it not stated that the position of these shops had involved the 
building of an expensive bridge ?—It was, or, at all events, that the position of 
the shops rendered the bridge larger and more expensive than it would have 
been. 

2911. For what purpose were the shops built?—They were workshops and 
construction shops; that is also adverted to in the letter I handed in, in which 
che Board exonerated Mr. Bruce from the censure that had at first been put 
upon him, having, on the receipt of more perfect information, and a plan of the 
works, seen that the construction of a bridge there was necessary. 

2912. Then, in fact, many of the cases that were adduced by the Government, 
and upon which the Board’s letter was based, were found not to have been 
accurately stated ?—I have mentioned these three cases in which the censures 
proceeded on imperfect information. 

2913. And on which the Board exculpated the engineer?—Yes. 

2914. And the letter, of course, represented the views of the Board ?—Yes. 

2915. Who is the chairman of the Board ?—General Sim. 

0.61. c c 2 2916. He 


J. Walker , Esq. 
10 June 1858. 



204 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


J. Walker, F.sq. 


10 June 1858. 


Mr. G. B. Bruce. 


2916. He belongs to the same corps as Colonel Pears, does he not?—He was 
formerly chief engineer of Government at Madras. 

2917. Were the complaints confined to your own engineers, or have your other 
officers ever complained of undue interference on the part of the Government ?— 
We have had complaints from other officers also. 

2918. Have you ever had any complaint made by your agent r—Yes. 

2919. Has your traffic manager been always satisfied with the Government 
supervisions ?—The traffic manager has complained very much of the interference 
of the Government in respect of traffic, and the working of the line. 

2920. And I think, in consequence of a letter addressed to the Madras Govern¬ 
ment by the Court of Directors, the supervision of the traffic management and 
the working of the line, has been materially modified r—It has been to some 
extent, and I am led to believe that it will be still more so. 

2921. Reference has been made to a letter of complaint on the part of the 
Board with their engineer; can you put in a copy ot your engineer’s reply to 
that letter from the Board ?—I think there are some explanations that were 
addressed by our engineer to the agent in reference to those complaints, and 
I will put those in. 

2922. I ask you whether you consider it fair on the part of the Government 
to publish the one letter without publishing the other containing the expla¬ 
nations?—I think every man’s explanation ought to receive equal publicity 
with the charge. 

2923. Mr. T. G. Baring.'] Are you aware whether Mr. Bruce addressed any 
letter to the Government of Madras which came before them officially before the 
publication of this letter in the despatches ? — Mr. Bruce, in his situation as our 
chief engineer, did not correspond direct with the Government. 

2924. Are you aware whether the agent communicated Mr. Bruce’s expla¬ 
nations to the Government in reference to that letter? —I cannot tell you unless 
I compare the dates ; I am not sure that I can tell when that letter was pub¬ 
lished. 

2925. Unless the Government was in possession of the explanation from 
Mr. Bruce, they were of course unable to publish it ?—Certainly ; if the Govern¬ 
ment were not in possession of it, they could not publish it. 

2926. Do you mean to imply that Government purposely withheld any 
explanation of Mr. Bruce on this point?—I cannot say, without an opportunity 
of comparing the dates. 

2927. You are not aware of the dates of any letter that may have been addressed 
by the agent to the Government on this particular point ?—I cannot at this 
moment state the date. 

2928. Colonel Sykes.] At the date of the publication the Government may not 
have received the letter from your agent containing the remonstrances of Mr. 
Bruce ?—They may not have received it. 

2929. Mr. J. G. Bruce.] This letter having been addressed to your agent by 
you, as managing director of the Board, would not the reply of the agent be 
addressed to the Railway Board?—The reply of the agent to that letter certainly 
would be. 


Mr. G. B. Bruce, called in ; and further Examined. 

2930. Mr. T. G. Baring.] WHEN was this letter, of the 15 th December 1855 , 
written by Mr. Walker to the agent of the company, communicated to you?—I 
may answer that by saying that my explanation of that matter was written in 
December 1855 , before the letter of the Board. 

3931. On the receipt of this letter, did you write a letter to the agent, request¬ 
ing him to communicate that letter to the Government?—No ; I never wrote a 
line with reference to the letter of the Board. My explanation was written in 
September 1855 ; and if the Committee will allow me, I may say further, that 
to this hour I have never seen a single line of the charges brought against me by 
the Government engineer, upon which the Board of Directors wrote that letter. 

2932. When you say the “Government engineer,” you are aware, I suppose, 
that the communication to the Court of Directors came from the Government of 
Madras?—Yes; and with that they would send Colonel Pears’ letters, which I 
have never seen. 




SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


205 


James Walker , Esq., re-called; and further Examined. 

2 933- .Mi. Crawford. ] Colonel Pears gave certain evidence upon a former 
occasion in reference to the construction of a branch railway to proceed to the 
salt depots of the Government at Madras; when was the proposal to lay down 
a branch to that salt depot first made ?—The case was referred by the Govern¬ 
ment to the Board of Revenue in January 1855. In the year 1856 plans were 
submitted by the railway officers, at the desire of the Government, for this branch; 

fi na dy> hi November 1857, the Government approved a plan proposed bv 
the Department of Public Works, and we were in hopes the construction would 
immediately have been proceeded with; but we were disappointed at finding that 
Colonel Pears had recommended that the branch should be laid down on a four- 
foot gauge, to which we very much objected. 

2 934* ^ our own gauge being what ?—Five feet six inches. 

2 935- What is the length of the branch?—Our officers describe it as being: 
1£ mile. 

2936. Do you state that authoritatively?—I state it on the authority of our 
traffic manager, in his report on the subject. 

2 937- R Las been stated by Colonel Pears that the length is not above 800 
or 900 yards ?—I think that may arise from Colonel Pears stating the length, 
irrespective of that part of the line that runs along the Salt Heaps themselves. 

2938. Are you aware of any reason why the proposed branch line should be 
constructed of a particular gauge ; is there anything peculiar in the nature of salt 
works to render the introduction of the broader gauge undesirable ?—They are 
not salt works, but stores of salt stored up by the Government, and they would 
have no difficulty, I conceive, in carrying a 5 feet 6 inch gauge down the middle 
of them, if you could carry one of four foot. 

2 939* Colonel Pears stated that the object of this was to save the frequent 
loading and unloading, so that the small dealer in salt might not be impeded in 
his arrangements by the operations of the large dealers ?—I do not see how that 
effect would be produced. I consider that uniformity of gauge would facilitate 
ever) 7 dealer’s operations very much ; and, as to the loading and unloading, it is 
quite clear that, having two gauges, you have, after bringing your salt, on the 
narrow gauge, to unload and to reload it at the broad gauge. That would be 
saved by loading it at ohce at the heap on the proper gauge line of the railway. 

2940. Were the rails 10 have been of the same weight on the branch line as 
on the main line?—I do not know whether they would be or not. 

2941. If they were of the same weight, there would be no additional expense 
of any magnitude ?—I should mention that the railway company were not to 
make the branch, but the Government were to do it. I should, of course, think 
it better to lay down the same weight of rails for the facility of working 
locomotives. 

2942. Did the Government propose to use locomotive power on the branch 
li ne ?—They have not told us what their intentions are on that subject. 

2943. If locomotive power were used, it would be necessary to have a 
different sort of locomotive ?—Yes; but I should not think that they con¬ 
templated locomotive power on the narrow gauge, probably animal power. 

2944. Was it intended that the railway company should work the branch?— 
They offered to do so. 

2945. Has it been made yet ?—It has not. 

2946. It is still under discussion?—At the last advices. 

2947. What is the present extent of salt traffic from Madras along the rail¬ 
way ?—The last return we have is to the end of March, and in that month they 
had sent 1,140 tons, being nearly at the rate of 40 tons a day; we understand 
that the traffic from Madras in salt is equal to about 50 tons a day; it does not 
yet all go on the railway, and we anticipate that when due facilities are given, 
the salt traffic will increase enormously. 

2948. I suppose you could afford to send a locomotive down to the salt works 
at least once a day for 50 tons?—We could send down a locomotive to biing it 

2^49. ^t would be worth your while to bring 40 or 50 tons?—Undoubtedly ; 

it would be about 10 waggons. , 

2950. In answer to question 2532, Colonel Pears stated that he thought the 
ap-ent on the spot had not sufficient authority, in consequence of there being a 
0.61. c c 3 Railway 


J. Walker , Esq. 
10 June 1858. 



20 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

J. Walker , Esq. Railway Board, as a sort of Court of Appeal, behind him; if any blame is cast 

- upon the officers, they look to the court at home.” Have the Government ever 

10 June 1858. pointed out to you in what respect the authority vested in the company’s agent 
should be modified ?—No, I am not aware that they have ; I do not see what 
more authority the agent could have than he is already invested with. 

29.51. What is the nature of his authority over the company’s officers?—He 
has the power of suspending and recommending for dismissal any officer of the 
company. 

2952. It was also stated by the same witness, in answer to question 2336 , 
“ That he considered the railway company as a body acting in subordination to 
the Government; in fact, that they were merely agents to carry out their inten¬ 
tions ; and that was the expression of the Honourable Court of Directors itself.” 
Are you aware that this view of the relations of the railway company to the Go¬ 
vernment has ever been expressed by the Court of Directors ? — I find, in the 22d 
paragraph of the financial railway despatch to the Governor-General in Council, 
dated the 17 th of August 1853 , a statement to this effect: “Considering the 
relative position of the East India Railway Companies and the Government of that 
country, the former can only be regarded as agents for carrying out and executing 
the wishes of the latter.” And they go on at the same place to say, “ We certainly 
do not perceive the necessity of employing a greater number than is consistent 
with the convenience and advantage of the public service.” It appears to me 
that the opinion here expressed by the East India Company has been a little 
misinterpreted by the Government at Madras, and has led in some degree to 
the extent of interference of which we have been complaining. The Court of 
Directors, in making this statement, meant to say, I think, that they had entrusted 
or delegated the construction of railways in India to railway companies, and 
that in that sense they were their agents; whereas the Government of India 
seem to have read it as if the railway company were merely agents and 
servants of the Government; and it appears that many of their proceedings 
throughout have been a good deal influenced by such opinions; it has led in 
some cases, for instance, to their speaking of the railway company’s losses as the 
losses of the Government; I may mention one instance to show the effect of this 
on the mind of the Government: there was a small loss on goods sustained by 
the railway in their traffic, and the consulting engineer of the Government, in 
reference to it, writes to the agent to request a more full explanation of loss of 
property on the railway, “ for which Government are now called upon to bear a 
loss of Rs. 58 . 5 . 9 .” It is quite clear that that would have been the loss of the 
railway company; but this idea which here finds expression has pervaded the 
views of the Government very much in their dealings with the railway company, 
and I think it has led in some degree to the Government of India ignoring the 
substantive existence of a body of shareholders, a railway company, and a board, 
which was bound to represent and watch over their interests. 

2953. Mr. Crawford.'] Do you mean the Government of India, or the Govern¬ 
ment of Madras ?—I mean both ; in that way some of the rights of our share¬ 
holders under the contract have, I think, been ignored. In respect to settling 
the tariff, the contract provides that the tariff of rates is to be submitted by the 
railway board to the East India Company for their approval, and, subject to their 
approval, it is to be adopted : we submitted a tariff of rates accordingly for the 
sanction of the East India Company; the East India Company expressed, to a 
certain extent, their approval, and authorised us to send the tariff to our 
agent for adoption, with the sanction of the Madras Government; the Madras 
Government, instead of adopting this, substituted a tariff prepared under their 
own directions : there was a good deal of discussion on this subject, and reference 
was made to the Government of India on the subject by the Madras Government, 
and in their reply the Government of India enunciate this principle: “ The 
Government of India has hitherto desired to establish the lowest tariff on which 
a small margin of profit could fairly be expected, and is prepared to support the 
Government of Madras in following the same principle.” We contend that that 
is in opposition to the spirit of the contract, which intended to give to the share¬ 
holders a return for their capital from the revenue of the railway to the extent 
of 10 per cent., and we protested against a trial of an experiment of that descrip¬ 
tion at our cost. 

2954. Colonel Sykes.] Has there been any remonstrance on the part of your 

Board 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 207 

Board of Directors against the opinion you have just read from the despatch of 
the East India Company ?—As I read this despatch I do not see any thing to 
object to, but I think it was misconceived in India. 

29.55. Has there been any remonstrance by the Madras Government against 
that interpretation being put upon the letter of the Court?—Not with reference 
to this letter. 

2056. Mr. Crawford .] What is your opinion upon the general question of the 
system of Control as understood and pursued at Madras by the Government ?— 

I have just explained that I think the system prusued by the Government at 
Madras has been based on an erroneous interpretation of this despatch of the 
Court of Directors ; and I also think that it rests on a mistaken assumption, 
which is, that the officer whom they select as consulting engineer should be 
possessed of every scientific and practical knowledge in detail, of a railway 
manager, traffic manager, locomotive superintendent, as well as a railway engineer; 
a combination of qualities which I do not think the Government have a right to 
expect. 

•2957. Are the relations of your agent and the officers of your company in 
India with the officers of the Government in a more satisfactory state now than 
they were?—Very much so. I have great pleasure in reading an extract from 
the report of Captain Johnston, to which I referred in my last day’s examina¬ 
tion : “ I have merely further to observe, that the progress of the works generally 
throughout the line is most satisfactory, and that the engineers, one and all, show 
the greatest interest in the undertaking. They were most ready to give me 
every possible information I could require; and I consider that the railway- 
company have much reason to congratulate themselves in having secured the 
services of so efficient a body of executives.” And Government, in their minute 
on this Teport. from Captain Johnston, add, “ Government have derived much 
gratification from the concluding observations of Captain Johnston, on the zeal 
and ability displayed by the several engineers of the railway company.” 

•2958. Have you any observation to offer in reference to the system of super¬ 
vision practised in this country ?—I think as it now stands the system of super¬ 
vision in this country does not admit of much improvement, except by the 
authorities placing in their ex-officio director that confidence and power which I 
understand it was the original intention he should possess. 

2959. You think the powers of the ex-officio director in this country should be 
enlarged, and that in point of fact the extent of those powers ought to be a 
question between him and those whom he represents ?—It must necessarily 
be so. 

2960. As I understand, the improved state of your relations with the Govern¬ 
ment in this country, is in consequence of the change recently made in the mode 
in which the supervision is exercised r—Yes; the removal of some cf the causes 

of delay. r , , , 

2961. You stated in your last examination, that the reason assigned by the 
court for declining to allow your company to go on with the Bangalore line was, 
that the main lines of railway should be completed before those of a subordinate 
character were entered upon ?—Yes. 

2962. Do you consider the line to Bangalore a line of secondary importance ? 
— Quite the contrary ; I think it a line of the first importance in a military, com¬ 
mercial, social, and I should imagine a political point of view. 

2963. Bangalore is one of the largest military stations in the south of India? 

_j t i s the principal military station, and by the construction of this branch, it 

will be placed in communication not only with Madras, but with Trichinopolee, 
which is the head quarters of the southern division of the army. 

2964. Are there not, at Bangalore, from the nature of the climate, a large 
number of European troops assembled ?—Yes. 

2965. Would the simultaneous construction of that branch impede the pro¬ 

gress of your main line ?—It would not; we are so far advanced in the accumu¬ 
lation of railway materials in Madras, that we should have no danger of delay in 
providing what was required for the Bangalore branch. We have about 390 
miles of permanent way materials at Madras. ' 

2066 From the general knowledge you possess of the state of India, do you 
consider the Southern of India line to be of greater importance than the Banga¬ 
lore branch which vou have not yet been permitted to make ?—Certainly not. 

2067 Is not the* competition which naturally arises from the construction of 

0.61. cc 4 two 


J. Walker, Esq. 


10 June 1858. 



208 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


J. Walter, Esq. 


10 June 1858. 


two large lines of railway in a country having but one port of access for the sup¬ 
ply of stores from this country, rather calculated to increase the demand for 
freight, and from the circumstance of that demand being in two different hands, 
to raise the price of freights ?—It has that tendency. 

2968. Do you not think that from there being two bodies at work in the 
same market in India, unconnected with each other, the same effect may be 
produced upon the supply and upon the cost of labour?—Undoubtedly, to some 
extent. The Court of Directors have recognised that in the despatch from which 
I have already quoted. They say, “We certainly do not perceive the necessity 
of employing a greater number (of companies) than is consistent with the con¬ 
venience and advantage of the public service. Under this system we may 
hope that the usual beneficial effects of competition will be derived from vigi¬ 
lant Government superintendence ; and the inconvenience which would probably 
result from the pressure of conflicting interests will be avoided. We are even 
now apprehensive that the competition for freight will create a difficulty, 
although the railway companies will send their materials to different ports.” 

2969. Did you take any exception to this new line being made in the Madras 
territory ?—When the scheme was first brought before the public, two years ago, 
we addressed the court in reference to it, saying that the lines which this com¬ 
pany proposed to make were lines that we had always had in contemplation; in fact 
they are referred to in our early letters, and we considered them as necessary com¬ 
plements to the trunk line which we were engaged in constructing; that we 
presumed the court would concur with us that the time had not yet arrived for 
the construction of these branches, although they would be useful, but that when 
it did we should be ready to undertake their construction. 

2970. At what part of your line would be the junction with the Southern of 
Madras ?—Salem. 

2971. Have you heard anything further, since your last appearance in this 
room, of the contract for your North-Western or Bellary line?—I have seen our 
solicitors, who inform us that the objections that were taken on the part of the 
East India Company have been withdrawn, and that there is no difficulty now in 
having the contract completed as we proposed. 

2972. Those were objections as to the terms of the contract in reference to the 
accounts being kept separate ?—That was one, and the other was about the 
length of time within which the company should exercise its power to sur¬ 
render. 

2793. You understand that the Court of Directors have conceded the point in 
the same way as they have to the East Indian Railway with respect to its Jub- 
bulpore branch ?—Yes; and the contract is in its terms analogous to our previous 
contracts, which is what we have asked for from the beginning. 

2974. Colonel Sykes. ] I see upon the map, a line sanctioned from Vaniambady 
to Bangalore?—It is sanctioned, but not commenced. 

2975. What are the difficulties?—We have applied often for permission to go 
on with it, but have not obtained it. 

2976. Are you aware that on several occasions complaints have been made by 
the servants of the company in India of delay in getting money from the Govern¬ 
ment ?—Yes. 

2977. Did you find it necessary to remonstrate with the Government, or did 
you find the fault to lie with your own servants ?—We brought the subject 
under the notice of the Court of Directors in that letter of the 15 th December 
1856 . 

2978. With what result?—Since that time we have had no complaint, to the 
best of my recollection. 

2979. Were the complaints well founded ?—No doubt they were well founded, 
so far that the funds were not supplied to the extent we required, and our 
operations were impeded for want of funds. 

2980. My question is, did you find it necessary, on any of these occasions, to 
remonstrate with the Government, or did you find the fault to lie with your own 
servants?—We found that the fault lay with the Government, in the particular 
case to which we adverted in our letter to the Court of the 15 th December 
1856 . 

2981. When funds were wanting, you say they were not forthcoming from 
the Government ?—Our servants applied for a certain amount of money, which 
they did not receive. 

2082. Was 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 209 

2982. Was that in consequence of their application being deemed beyond the 
necessities of the case; or what were the reasons assigned by the Government? 
—The reason assigned by the Government, in this particular case, which we 
made the subject of representation to the Court, was, that it appeared by the 
statement of our engineer that there were large balances in his hands for the 
particular districts. 

2983* In fact, that there was really and properly, by the accounts, no ground 
for that complaint of a want of funds ?—I do not admit that. These accounts 
did not represent the actual available cash ; the statement could only represent 
the balance of previous advances, which had not been accounted for. 

2984. Do you not think that it was quite right and prudent on the part of 
the Government, when they saw large cash balances apparently in the hands of 
ol the servants ol the company, to decline to make further advances, until they 
were accounted for J .—In the case I referred to, no answer was returned to the 
application for nearly a month. 

2985. By whom ?—By the Government. The facts were these, and we re¬ 
quested that the Court would make inquiry into them : the agent, 011 the 21st 
August, addressed the Government consulting engineer with statement of re¬ 
ceipts and disbursements on account of construction and workshops, requesting 
advances on this account, as specified, to the amount of three lakhs and 30,000 
rupees ; on the 27 th of that month the agent urged an early compliance with 
that application, the money being wanted for several of the districts. On the 
4 th September, the agent again brought to their notice the urgent necessity of 
an advance to prevent the works being stopped in districts 4, 5, and 6, and 
begged that, under any circumstances, au immediate advance of 10,000 rupees 
for each of the districts might be granted. On the 6th September, the agent 
addressed the chief secretary of the Government direct, with copy of his last 
letter to the consulting engineer, requesting, in the emergency, and to prevent 
the works being stopped for want of funds, that Government would pass an 
order for 30,000 rupees on account. This small advance was sanctioned by 
Government on the 9 th September, under the emergency of the case. On the 16 th 
September the agent again addressed theGovernment consulting engineer, request¬ 
ing a further advance of three lakhs and 70,000 rupees on account of construction 
and workshops, in addition to that applied for on the 21st of the previous month, 
which he again begged might be sanctioned as early as practicable, great incon¬ 
venience being experienced for want of funds, as by copy annexed of a letter to 
him from the chief engineer. O11 the 22d September an advance of three lakhs 
of rupees, balance of the amount applied for on the 21st August was received, as 
was on the 25 th of the same month the further sum of three lakhs and 70,000 
rupees on the same account, showing, as the Board considered, the exhausted 
and embarrassed condition into which the previous unexplained delay must have 
reduced the Company’s agent and executive officers in point of funds, and the 
arrear into which their payments, due for labour and materials, must have been 
driven in consequence. 

2086. What was the reason assigned by Government for refusing to com¬ 
ply with your request ?—The reason assigned by the Government consulting 
engineer was, that it appeared from the statement furnished by the engineer that 
there were large balances standing to the debit of some of these districts, but the 
Board were aware that those balances were only apparent, and that they really 
represented merely the difference between the amounts received in advance and 
those accounted for up to that date by the engineer in charge. They say, “ It is 
therefore quite intelligible, that with an apparent large balance in hand an 
actual want of funds might and did co-exist on the occasion in question. The 
Board are rather surprised, indeed, that this view of the case was not present to 
the mind of one so conversant with the subject as the Government consulting 
engineer must be taken to be.” 

2987. When the outstanding balances were accounted for, the Government 
made up the advances that were asked for?—They made, in the end, all the 
advances that we asked for. 

2988. Before the outstanding balances were accounted for ?—Before the second 
payment was made they had the statement of the succeeding month ; in the end we 
got within three days the money that had been applied for for the two months. 

0.61. D d 2089. Were 


J. Walker , Ejq. 


10 June 1858. 



J. Waller , Esq. 


10 June 1858. 


210 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

2089. Were the works actually stopped during that time?—I do not know 
that they were stopped, hut it has been repeatedly the subject of representation 
by our engineers. 1 think once they said they were obliged to stop altogether, 
and they have repeatedly represented that they were impeded for want of funds, 
and it was the recurrence of those representations that ini need the Board to 
address the Court of Directors upon the subject. 

. The extreme delay was a month ?—In this particular case one month 

2991. Were there any other instances of delay ?—I do not know that there 
were instances of so long a delay. 

2992. Have you not had frequent occasion to find fault with the irregular 
transmission of papers and accounts frpm India, and of the defective character of 
the information transmitted, with requisitions for stores, &c. ?—We have had 
occasion to find fault. 

2993. And from your own officers?—They all come from our own officers. 

2994. Did you receive complaints from your agent at Madras of inattention 
on the part of the chief engineer, or other officers subordinate to him, to his orders 
and references ?—The agent has complained that he did not receive the informa¬ 
tion so speedily as lie should have done, and wished to do. 

2995. Mr. Bruce has observed that the supply of certain pumps from England 
was delayed an unreasonable time. Do you remember the cause of this delay, 
and was it attributable to any delay or interference on the part of the Govern¬ 
ment ?—No, I explained that case at full length on my last examination. I made no 
charge against the Government. 

2996. You have lately, I believe, appointed a new agent and manager at 
IVJadras ?—We have. 

2997. Has that agent expressed in his communications with yourself or to the 
Board any opinion of the state of accounts in your engineer department ?—He has 
expressed himself generally as anxious that the accounts should be brought up 
more closely than they are. 

2998. Then, in fact, they are not brought up closely ?—Not so closely as is 
desirable. 

2999. Or as they ought to be?—It is difficult to bring them close up ; the en¬ 
gineer’s accounts can only be made up when the accounts from the stores and 
workshops are completed, because every article furnished to the engineer from 
either of these departments must be brought into his accounts, and, therefore, any 
delay on their part involves a delay on his part. A delay also by any one of the 
many subordinate engineers in completing his accounts, unavoidably delays the 
general account. 

3000. Have you had your accounts brought up better since the appointment 
of your new agent ?—I do not know that he has had much time for improvement; 
he is exerting himself, and every department is exerting itself to meet the wishes of 
the Board in that respect. I believe they will succeed in doing so. 

3001. Has he expressed any opinion upon the expediency of increasing the 
European subordinate agency from England?—He mentioned in his opinion that 
it would be an improvement to have an accountant from England for the 
engineering department. 

3002. Has that been sanctioned?—It has not. The chief engineer lias not 
expressed his opinion that such is necessary. As a general rule, we send 
nothing out to India that is not applied for from Madras with the sanction 
of the Government there. 

3003. Mr. Crawford .] It has been stated by Colonel Pears, in his evidence, 
that the prospects of the Madras Railway are such as not to encourage an 
expectation that any higher dividend than 5 per cent, will at any time be realised. 
Have you any observation to make in reference to that?—I do not coincide 
in that opinion, and I form my conclusion from these considerations, that, 
in the first place, with its very imperfectly developed traffic, the portion of 
the line now open and at work has been yielding a net return of about 4 
per cent., that is after deducting the working charges, but not the charge for 
maintenance of way, the incidence of which has not yet beeu determined ; the 
date at which the maintenance of way falls upon revenue is a matter not yet 
determined. The railway has only been open about a year and a half, any part 
of it. We have in evidence, in some of the Blue Books, that coincident with this 
amount of traffic upon the railway, the traffic upon the western road, which runs 

parallel 




SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 211 

parallel with it, is greater than ever. There have been differences of opinion as 
to the propriety of the rates for goods traffic upon the line, but it is not con¬ 
tested that those rates are lower than the rates paid on the common road, 
and Colonel Pears has admitted that eventually the whole of the road 
traffic, at all events, must go upon the railway, whatever further extension 
it may have; I have shown the extension in the case of the salt traffic, 
which, from being in the early months some 20 or 30 tons a month, has now 
reached, by the last monthly return, 1,140 tons carried on the line. We are 
informed, and have every reason to believe, that the amount of salt which leaves 
Madras in the direction of our railway, is equal to 50 tons a day, which sooner 
or later must go on the line, with an indefinite extension. The number of 
passengers on the line, although limited, from causes which I cannot enter into 
before the Committee, has gone on steadily increasing. It has been stated in 
Colonel Pears’ evidence, that the portions of the railways now open are the best 
portion of them, on account of the local traffic ; but in the case of the Madras 
railway, I can show that that is not so, by the evidence of the mileage of 
the passengers we carry: the average mileage of all classes of passengers carried 
while 65 miles only were open, was 37 or 38 miles, showing clearly that it is 
no local traffic. It has been also expressed by various authorities, among the 
rest by Colonel Pears himself, I believe, that the limited extent of railway yet 
opened, is not calculated to give any indication of the amount of goods traffic 
that will go upon it. We consider that the traffic has been impeded from 
other causes, which, as I said, I cannot enter into; but I think 1 have stated 
sufficient to show that there is every reason to expect a very great increase of 
traffic, both in goods and passengers, and in consequence that the Madras rail¬ 
way, and in my belief the other Indian railways also, will pay considerably more 
than the guaranteed rates of interest. 


Mr. Thomas R. Watt, called in ; and Examined. 

3004. Chairman .] YOU are, 1 believe, the Secretary of the Great Indian 
Peninsular Railway Company ?—lam. 

3005. How long have you filled that office?—For four years, three of which 
were passed in Bombay. 

3006. Will you state to the Committee when the Great Indian Peninsular 
Company was formed?— It was originated in the spring of the year 1845 ;• but 
the company did not succeed in obtaining an Act of Parliament until August 

3007. Who vias the originator of the scheme?—Mr. John Chapman. 

3008. In the year 1845 "?—He had been working at it for some years previ¬ 
ously; but it was in the year 1845 that he first brought it to a point with the 
projectors of the existing company. 

3000. When was the Act of Incorporation obtained ?—In August 1849 . 

3010. An agreement, I believe, was then entered into between the East India 
Company and the railway company for the construction of an experimental 
line?--It was, under the date of the 17 th August 1849 . 

3011. How far was that experimental line to go?—From Bombay to Cal- 

liari, a distance of 33 miles. . . . , 

3012. What was the amount of capital the railway company were authorised 

to raise ? — £. 500 , 000 . ^ T . , , 

3013. What was the guarantee upon that r—Upon a guaranteed rate of inte- 

ieS 30°i4° When was the first sod turned ?—On the 31 st October 1850 . 

3015 When was the line completed and opened for traffic r—The line to 
Tanna, which is 22 miles out of the 33 , was completed and opened for traffic 

in April 1853 - . . . cr 

3016. Subsequent to that, when was the remaining portion of the line, a* tai 

as Callian, completed ?—In May 1854 . f 

o 01 r. What was the system adopted by the company for the construction of a 
rail wav • did they work it themselves, or through the medium of contractors 
The whole of the railway has been constructed by means of contracts with com¬ 
petent contractors. Q Tl 

P o 6l D D 2 3018. Have 


J. Walker, Esq. 


10 June 1858. 


Mr. T. R, Watt . 




21 2 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. T. R. Walt. 


10 June 1858. 


3018. Have you found generally the contractors fulfilling their engagements 
satisfactorily ?—We have no instance of their not having done so. 

3019. What is the whole extent of line for which you have received the 
Government sanction, and upon the capital for the construction of which you 
received the guaranteed interest?—The whole extent of the railway sanctioned 
down to the present time is 1,235 miles. 

3020. What is the amount of capital ?—The amount of capital that has been 
sanctioned at present is 8 , 000,000 /. of share capital, and 333 , 300 /. have been 
raised by loan. 

3021. What is the full extent of your borrowing powers under the Act?—The 
full extent of the borrowing powers is one-third of the 8,000,000 l. 

3022. Will you describe to the Committee shortly your main line and its 
branches ?—The main line extends from Bombay, in a north-easterly direction, 
to Jubbulpore, a distance of 605 s miles. There is a branch which leaves the 
main line at Bhosawul to Nagpore, a distance of 263 miles. The south-eastern 
extension leaves the main line at Callian, 33 miles from Bombay, and extends 
to the River Kistna. 

3023. It is in contemplation, I think, that your line eventually shall join the 
Madras line at some point not yet fixed upon ?—It is. 

3024. What will be the probable ultimate length of that branch from Callian 
to the Kistna ? —From Callian to the Kistna is 358 miles. 

3025. There is a portion of the south-easterly end of that line which, I be¬ 
lieve, is at present in abeyance ?—-That is so ; it is the piece between Sholapore 
and the River Kistna, being 110 miles. 

3026. Describe the difficulties which have arisen in regard to that portion of 
the line, and explain why it is that the point has not been already fixed upon 
where it is to join the other line?—Our company has experienced no difficulty, 
and we have on two occasions expressed our readiness to go into the question 
with the Madras company, with a view to settle the point at which the two lines 
should meet; but down to the present time they are not prepared to go into that 
inquiry. 

3027. You have two herculean works in the course of construction, namely, 
those portions of the line in the direction of Jubbulpore, and the other line in the 
direction of the Kistna, which is the line across the line of Ghauts: to take them 
in order, describe the nature of the works under construction for the passing of the 
Thul Ghaut; describe the altitude you have to surmount, and the cost, &c. ?—The 
incline commences at a point called the Rotunda Nullah,'and terminates at 
Egutpoora. 

3028. What is the distance between the two points?—Nine miles is the length 
of the ascent; the total rise in that distance is 972 feet. 

3029. What is the maximum gradient that you propose to attain in the most 
difficult and steepest parts of that liner—The steepest gradient is 1 in 37 , for 
a distance of 4 miles and 44 chains. 

3030. What is the estimated cost for the construction of that nine miles ?— 
The estimated cost is 49 , 988 /. per mile. 

3031. Is the tunnelling very heavy?—There are 1,962 lineal yards of tunnel¬ 
ling, and 614 yards of viaducts. 

3032. These being works of a difficult character, I presume they are entirely 
in the hands of your own inspectors and servants?—They are being constructed 
by contract under the superintendence of the engineer and his staff. 

3033. Have you experienced any difficulty in obtaining the skilled labour 
necessary for the inspection and superintendence of works of that nature ?—Not 
for the superintendence and inspection. 

3034. Do you employ exclusive Europeans for that purpose?—No; we employ 
also natives; termed maestries in India but they are in the capacity of foremen 
of bricklayers or carpenters ; the superior offices are all filled bv engineers. 

3035. What is the name of your chief engineer?—Mr. James Berkeley. 

3036. He has been at the head of your works from the beginning ?—He has. 

3037. Will you give us a short account of the other great work in the south¬ 
easterly direction over the Bhore Ghaut; what is the point at which you there 
commence the ascent ?—The point is Padusdhurnee, and it terminates at 
Lanowlee. 


3038. What 



213 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

303S. What is the distance:—The total distance is 15 miles and 68 chains; Mr. T. R. Watt. 

the total rise in that distance is 1,831 feet; there are 2,535 yards of tunnelling’, - 

and 888 yards of viaducts. v 10 June 1858. 

3 ° 39 * What is the highest gradient upon this 15 miles ?—One in 37 for a mile 
and 38 chains, and the estimated cost is 48,188 /. per mile. 

3 ° 4 °- Have you not experienced on the works of Bhore Ghaut some difficulty 
in obtaining labour?—The works of the Bhore Ghaut are being executed by a 
contractor ; for a time they were in a backward state, and one of the reasons 
assigned by the contractor for his works being backward was the difficulty he 
experienced in obtaining labour. 

3041. What was the cause of that difficulty in obtaining labour?—The site 
where the works are being carried on is very unhealthy, and he found great 
difficulty in inducing labourers to come forward to execute the works upon that 
district. 

3042. What is the nature of the ground ; is it jungle?—Altogether, over the 
Ghaut, at certain seasons, of course, it is more unhealthy than at others. 

3043. What is the rate of wages you usually pay ?—We do not employ that 
labour, so that I am unable to give you any information upon that point. 

3044. Are your contractors Europeans or natives ?—One native has executed 
some works for us ; but the other contractors are all Europeans, who h ive gone 
out from this country. 

3045. What portion of the line is in the hands of the native contractor ?— 

A native contractor constructed the portion from Perseek Point to Callian, a 
distance of eight miles. 

3046. That is a portion of the line already open r—Yes; the same contractor 
executed also the part from Callian to Wassind, the extreme point to which the 
line is now opened in a north-easterly direction; and he is now constructing 
the line from Wassind to the Rotunda Nullah, at llie foot of the Tliul Ghaut. 

3047. What is the name of the native contractor?—Jamsetjee Dorabjee. 

3048. Is the native contractor aParsee?—He is. 

3049. Have you had reason to be satisfied with the mode in which he has 
fulfilled his contracts?—Perfectly so; Mr. Berkeley, the engineer, speaks in the 
highest terms of the manner in which he has always executed his works. 

3050. Speaking generally, have you had reason to be satisfied with all the 
contractors with whom you have dealt?—Yes. 

3051. Y'ou have given us the estimated cost for these leading works; I wish 
to know what the average estimated cost over the whole line at present in hand 
is:—I have not with me, and I cannot give you, the figures applicable to the 
sections of the railways that are now in progress; but the average of the whole 
of the railway, inclusive of the two Ghauts, is about 6,500 l. per mile. 

3052. Swelled by those two very expensive works?—To some extent. 

3053. As compared with other railway works under construction in India, 
would it not appear from that, that you are constructing many portions of your 
line at cheaper rate than almost any other railway company?—I do not know 
what the experience of other companies has been ; but upon the portion of the 
railway opened, HSb miles, the estimate of the cost, including 33 miles of double 
line, is in round numbers about 9 , 000 /. per mile. 

3054. I presume that you have not had to contend, as some other companies 
have had to do, with heavy bridging works over those portions ?—Yes; there are 
some heavy bridges upon the line opened. 

3055. Give us the names of the rivers you cross, and the nature of the 
bridging works over them?—I am not competent to give you an engineering 
description of them, but the first is the Tannah River. 

3056. Do you know the length of it ?—That river is crossed by two viaducts; 
one of nine arches of 30 feet span ; the other of 14 arches of a similar span, with 
an iron girder opening in the navigation channel of 81 feet span, raised to a 
height to give a clear headway of 30 feet above spring-tide level. 

3057. What is the next?—The Oomrah Viaduct. Then there are the Oolassa 
Viaduct, the Kaloo Viaduct, and the Basta Viaduct. 

3058. I presume these works are constructed with a view to laying down a 
double line of railway ?—There is a double line over the Tannah and over the 
Oomrah, and the rest are constructed for a double line. 

3059. Who is the Government consulting engineer upon your line ?—Lieu- 

0.61. DD3 tenant- 



214 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. T. li. Watt. 


10 June 1858. 


tenant-colonel Crawford acted from the commencement of the undertaking in India 
down to April or May 1856, when he was obliged to come to England, and he was 
succeeded for the time by Captain Rivers. Captain Rivers is still acting, although 
Colonel Crawford has returned to India, and is superintending engineer of the 
railway department; at present Colonel Crawford is acting mint master. 

3060. Of course you are subjected, as the other lines are, to an amount of 
Government supervision. I wish to know whether you have found any undue 
amount of interference exercised over your works, and the action of your engi¬ 
neers ?—Not during Colonel Crawford’s time ; hut when he was away in England 
a correspondence originated, which Iras only recently terminated, that certainly 
bears the character of interference with the company. 

3061. Have you not had a case in which the Government interference has 
been unduly exercised in regard r.o certain crossings and culverts upon a portion 
of the line in the neighbourhood of Callian?—That is the case to which 1 
allude. 

3062. Describe to the Committee what the extent of that interference has 
been, and whether any delay has been caused to the works in consequence?— 
No delay has been occasioned in the construction of the railway, because the 
interference has been upon a portion of the line which was finished, and at work. 

3063. Have you had any difficulty in obtaining the sanction of the Home 
Government to your extension schemes at any period since the formation of the 
Company?—There was great delay in sanctioning the construction of the North 
Eastern extension to Jubbulpore. 

3064. When was that extension of the line first applied for by your company ? 
—In September 1852. 

306,5. It did not form, I believe, any portion of your original scheme?—No; 
the original scheme was confined to an experimental line, as it was termed, 
beiwetn Bombay and Callian. The Act of 1849 permits of any number of miles 
of railway being constructed in India, with the concurrence of the East India 
Company. 

3066. When did you first apply for the extension?—When the experimental 
line was being constructed, the engineer entered upon surveys of the country 
beyond, in a north-easterly and in a south-easterly direction, and in September 
1852 he submitted his report upon the surveys of the line from Callian in a 
north-easterly direction to Munmar, on the western border of Candeish, 123 
miles by way of Thul Ghaut; upon consideration of that report, the railway 
corn] any urged Government to permit them to proceed forthwith with the 
construction of the line to Munmar. Government, instead of authorising our 
entering upon the construction of that line at once, required us to enter upon 
the execution of surveys beyond Munmar, in the direction of the Ganges Valley, 
and it was not until November 1855, upwards of three years afterwards, that we 
obtained sanction to construct the line that we were prepared to construct and 
were anxious to construct in 1852. 

3067. Had you the means, when you first made the application for that 
portion of the line extending to Munmar, and were you at once in a position to 
proceed in the execution of those works? — It would have been necessary to raise 
capital lor the purpose; but the Board did not apprehend that they would expe¬ 
rience any difficulty at that time in raising the amount of capital necessary for 
the construction of that line to Munmar. 

3068. Will you describe what the character of the country is, whether it is a 
very productive country through which you propose to carry that 123 miles of 
line?—The country which adjoins the railway is, I believe, not very productive; 
but it is the direct route to the great cotton-producing district of Nagpore. We 
must go to Munmar to get to Nagpore. 

3069. What is the point at which the Nagpore branch leaves the main line?— 
Bhosawal. 

3070. How far is Munmar from the point at which the Nagpore branch leaves 
the main line?—From Callian to Munmar is 123 miles; the whole distance 
from Callian to the point at which the Nagpore branch leaves the main line is 
240 miles. 

3071. Do you know anything of the population of Munmar?—I do not; 
but it was the point selected by the engineer up to which to carry the surveys 
at the time. 


3702. Was 



215 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

3072. Was this portion of the line selected in reference to engineering 
considerations, or upon commercial grounds?—Upon engineering considerations, 
looking forward to the ultimate extension of the railway in the north-easterly 
direction. 

30 / 3 - Mr. Crawford] Did you not risk any difficulty in obtaining the sanction 
ot the Government in reference to the south-eastern line?—-The report of the 
engineer 10 which I have referred embraced also surveys of a line in the south¬ 
eastern direction, to Poonah, via the Bhore Ghaut, and the railway company 
urged Government to permit them to go on with the construction of that line; 
the result was that Government sanctioned our going on with the construction of 
about 20 miles, to a point called Narel, but stopped us there, requiring that the 
Syhadree range of ghauts should be further carefully examined, with a view to 
see that no better means of access to the Deccan existed than by way of the Bhore 
Ghaut; that examination was made, and in reporting again in favour of the Bhore 
Ghaut, the chief engineer called attention to another Ghaut, the Kussoor Ghaut, 
which was in a more direct line, but the difficulties of which were such as to 
induce him to recommend us to construct the line by the Bhore Ghaut, the longer 
route. Government were not satisfied with the examination which had been made 
of the Kussoor Ghaut, and required a further examination to be made of it in 
detail, which again occasioned delay. 

3074. What was the extent of the delay so occasioned in point of time ?—The 
survey was laid before Government in August 1853 , but in consequence of those 
further examinations that we were required to make, the construction of that line 
could not be proceeded with until the commencement of the year 1856 . 

3075. Did you meet with any difficulty in the final determination of the 
means by which you were to ascend the Thul Ghaut?—We did. 

3076. What was the nature of the delay you met with?-—The contractor was 
in India, and on the ground, prepared to commence operations at the commence¬ 
ment of the working season, November 1857 , and the engineer, Mr. James 
Berkley, reported upon a line on that ghaut, advising that it should be placed 
in the hands of the contractor for construction; he necessarily brought under 
observation at the same time an alternative line, which had been surveyed, but 
the reasons in favour of the line which he recommended to be constructed were 
so strong that he urged the company and the Government not to hesitate, but 
to proceed with the construction of that line at once. The company acquiesced 
in Mr. Berkley’s views, and urged them on the Government, but Government 
not being satisfied, required the question to be referred home to this country for 
decision, and consequently that occasioned delay in the settlement of the case 
for about five months. 

3077. Chairman?\ Although the views of their own engineer and your engi¬ 
neer had coincided ?—No ; their engineer did not coincide with the company’s 
engineer. 

3078. Who was their engineer?—Captain Rivers. 

3079. Mr. Stephenson.] The original recommendation of Mr. Berkley had 
been acquiesced in, so far as to induce the company to let the contract?— 
Certainly. 

3080. The engineer proceeded with his staff to the ground, and also his plant? 
—Yes. 

3081. It was then, I understand, that the alternative line, which had been 
condemned by Mr. Berkley, was revived again r—He had not previously reported 
upon that alternative line. 

3082. He had reported upon what he considered the best liner—He had 
examined the ghaut, and had laid before the company a route which he advised 
them strongly to adopt; and upon proceeding to stake out the line for the pur¬ 
pose of construction by the contractor, an alternative line was suggested, the 
disadvantages of which, as compared with the original line, he pointed out in the 
most forcible manner, showing that it would cost upwards of 200,000/. more to 
construct; that it would be upwards of three miles longer; and that the very 
shortest period longer that it would take to construct would be two years. 

3083. Mr. Cranford.] Was there any difference in the gradients ?—It modi¬ 
fied the gradients bv reducing them from 1 in 37 to 1 in 60 . 

3084. Mr. Stephenson ] You should state the length in conjunction with the 
o-radient ?—It was upwards of three miles longer. 

o.61. d d 4 3 o8 5 * Mr. 


Mr. T. R. Watt. 


10 June 1858. 



216 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. T. R. Watt. 3085. Mr. Crawford. ] Which line has been since adopted ?—The line which 
— - Mr. Berkley in the first instance advised us to adopt. 

10 June 1858. 308(3. I understand that, as regards delay arising from the sanction which it 

was necessary the Government should give to you to proceed, it has been of a 
twofold character; there has been first the delay arising from the Government 
taking time to consider the general direction of the railway; and subsequently 
there has been delay arising out of the difficulty presented by the two ghauts? 
—Decidedly so. 

3087. In the case of those two ghauts, it may be presumed that the country 
had been sufficiently examined to enable the railway company to select the best 
line that could be found ?—We had a positive certificate, if I may use the term, 
from Mr. Berkley, that having examined the whole range of ghauts within a 
reasonable distance to the north and to the south-east, no better ghaut existed 
for access to the Deccan than the Bhore Ghaut on the south-east and the Thul 
Ghaut on the north-east. 

3088. Supposing the time taken for the examination of the range of ghauts 
was no more than was necessary, and the result to have been the ascertainment 
you have now selected of the best line, the time taken can hardly be considered 
as wasted ?--I think it might have been ascertained in a much shorter time. 

3089. Within what time did the engineer ascertain it ?—He reported on the 
Bhore Ghaut in August 1853 , and his examination then had been of such a 
nature as to leave no doubt on the minds of the Railway Board that no better 
route could be obtained by further delay or examination ; they would probably, 
if it had rested with them alone, have proceeded then vigorously with the con¬ 
struction of the line. 

3090. Have the company taken into its consideration, during the time you 
have been connected with them, the propriety of proceeding by Mr. Chapman’s 
original line into the Deccan, the Malsej Ghaut ?—Not during the time I have 
been connected with the company, but that route was carefully examined by 
Mr. Berkley, and one of the objectionable features in it, as brought to our notice 
by him, was, that one tunnel upon it would have taken 17 years to construct. 

3091. This Committee is appointed to inquire “ into the causes that have led 
to the delay that has occurred in the construction of railways in India.” Now 
in the case of the Great Indian Peninsular Railway Company, are there any 
causes of delay to which you wish to draw the attention of the Committee?— 
No, I think not. I can oidy mention the fact of the delay. 

3092. Do you admit that any delay has taken place beyond that which has 
been alluded to ?—I think not. 

3093. You do not admit that any delay has occurred in the construction of 
the railway ?—No; when once the route was determined, and authority was 
given to the company to proceed with the construction, there has been no avoid¬ 
able delay, and the works have been constructed in the shortest period. 

3094. The system of Government superintendence did not in the case of your 
line interpose any serious'cause of delay?—I think not, owing, I believe, to the 
system which was adopted of constructing the railway by means of contracts, 
because it was incumbent upon the Government to settle the plans for the con¬ 
struction of the line previous to the contract being let, and the contract being 
let, it remained alone with the railway company’s engineer to give orders to the 
contractor as to the manner in which the works were to be constructed. 

3095. The consulting engineer to the Government did not interpose any diffi¬ 
culty in the way of minute supervision or interference?—Certainly not. From 
my personal experience of the mode in which Colonel Crawford invariably con¬ 
ducted the business of his office, we at all times received the greatest facilities 
from him ; and the control exercised through him, whilst being strict, was never 
vexatious. 

3096. Chairman.'] Then the inference that the Committee may fairly draw 
from the statement you have made in regard to the construction of your line is 
this, that the extent to which the Government superintendence is carried is 
unquestionably less when the work is constructed by contract than when the 
works are constructed by the railway company themselves?—I think there can¬ 
not be a doubt of it. 

3097. Mr. Crawford.] I think you stated that, with one exception, the con¬ 
tractors are all Europeans?—Yes. 

3098. Were 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAY'S). 217 

3098. Were those Europeans found on the spot, or had they the opportunity 
oT tendering for the construction of the works given to them in this country 

I bey were all Europeans found m this country. 

3099. What was your practice with regard to affording contractors in this 
country the opportunity of tendering for those works ?—The practice has been, 
to invite tenders for the construction of the works both in India and in this 
country, upon contract drawings and specifications completely prepared by the 
engineer, and we furnished the contractors in this country with all the informa¬ 
tion 111 our power as to the character of the country through which the railway 
had to be constructed, the materials, and so on. 

3100. I suppose some of the contractors took an opportunity of proceedin'*- 
themselves, or of sending persons in whom they had confidence, to collect in” 
formation as to the price of labour, materials, and so on ?—That was done, par¬ 
ticularly by Mr. Wythes, who is now constructing the Thul Ghaut, and the 190 
miles beyond the Thul Ghaut; he constructed four miles of the line from Tanah 
to Perseek, upon which the work across the Tanah River is, and on which there 
are two short tunnels; and he, in the first instance, sent out to India a gentle¬ 
man, who is now his partner, Mr. Jackson, and it was upon the information 
that Mr. Jackson obtained in India that he tendered for the construction of that 
work from lanah to Perseek. The line from Bombay to Tanah was constructed 
by a firm of the name of Faviei & Fowler, neither of whom had been pre¬ 
viously in India. Mr. Faviei, having completed the line and returned to 
England, afterwards tendered for the construction of a line on the Bhore Ghaut, 
and for the 40 miles beyond the ghaut to Poonah, and he competed successfully 
with others, obtaining the contract; the line from Poonah to Sholopore, 160 
miles, is being constructed by Mr. Joseph Bray, who had previous experience 
in India upon the East India Railway. 

3101. Have these contractors employed sub-contractors under them?—I 
believe so. 

3102. What is the class from which these sub-contractors are taken?—I 
think they have constructed the earthworks, principally by letting off small 
quantities to a headman of a gang of labourers, the lowest order of coolies. 

3103. What order of men are the sub-contractors?—There are instances of 
Parsees sub-contracting and also of Hindoos. 

3104. There are no European sub-contractors ?—There may be, but I am not 
aware. I believe on the Bhore Ghaut Mr. Faviei lias sublet a portion of the 
work to a European in India. 

3105. Probably the effect of this system of letting large contracts in this 
country, and the contractors subletting them to natives in India, will be to 
create a class of men, who will themselves be able very materially to assist in 
the construction of railways in India, by themselves taking contracts by-and-by ? 
—That is certainly so, because recently the Board have received from two 
natives, one a Hindoo and the other a Parsee, tenders for the construction of the 
works beyond Bhosawul to Jubbulpore, and one of those men I have reason to 
believe has had experience as a sub-contractor. 

3106. With regard to the materials which the country supplies, you have at 
Bombay, I believe, a large and continuous supply of serviceable timber?—There 
is a considerable supply of timber, but the railway company have never had all 
the benefit of that supply which the circumstances lead us to believe we ought to 
have had. Difficulties have been thrown in our way in the procuring of that 
timber by the conservator of Forest’s Department; and only by the last mail we 
received accounts of the works upon the line above the Thul Ghaut having been 
suspended in consequence of an order of the Mamlutdar of Kolwan, prohibiting 
timber being cut nearer than three miles on each side of the railway, although 
the railway proceeds through a jungle, practically preventing the timber being 
made use of. 

3107. Have you made a representation of that circumstance to the Govern¬ 
ment ?—The circumstances were immediately brought under the notice of 
Government, and they as immediately ordered the first assistant of the collector 
at Tannah to proceed to the spot, and investigate the circumstances, and so it 
stands. 

3108. You have an unlimited supply of stone, have you not ?— We have. 

0.61. E e 3109. In 


Mr. T. R. Watt. 


10 June 1858. 



Mr. T. R. Watt. 


10 June 1858. 


218 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

3109. In fact your difficulty is to get the stone out of the way ?—Just so. 

3110. So that you meet 011 the Bombay side with none of the difficulties 
experienced in other parts of India from the* want of bricks or other building 
materials of that character ?—None. 

3111. Your company is differently constituted from the other railway com¬ 
panies in this point, I believe, that its interests are represented in Bombay not 
by an agent appointed by the railway company in this country, but by a depu¬ 
tation of the Board of Directors sitting in Bombay?—It is so. 

3112. Who are the gentlemen who generally form that deputation of the 
Board in Bombay?—Colonel Melvill, the Secretary of Government in the 
Military Department, is the chairman; Lieut.-Colonel Swanson, stipendiary 
member of the Military Board; and Lieut.-Colonel Barr, the military paymaster, 
are the three European directors at present on the committee ; there are two 
natives, Jugonath Sumkersett, a Hindoo banker, and Cursetjee Jamsetjee, a 
Parsee, and the eldest son of Sir Jamsetjee Jeejebhoy, Bart. 

3113. Is it not your opinion that the system which you have described of 
representing the company in India by a Board, is superior to that of appointing 
a single agent?—I think so ; I believe it carries more weight with it in the eyes 
of the Government. 

3114. And do you not by that means acquire a large amount of individual 
experience in the service of the company ?—Certainly. 

3115. Have you not by the presence of those gentlemen whose names you have 
mentioned on your Board, access to sources of information of all kinds and of 
every character ?—Decidedly so. 

3116. You find the presence of the native gentlemen upon the Board useful 
in many respects ?—Certainly. 

3117. In carrying on communications with the natives and others ?—Yes. 

3118. I believe you have a register for the transfer of shares in Bombay ?— 
Yes. 

3119. And you have a considerable number of shareholders in Bombay, both 
European and native r—Yes. 

3120. Do you not think that the presence of those native gentlemen upon the 
Railway Board was the effect of inducing many natives to become shareholders in 
the railway who otherwise would not have been so?—I have no doubt of it. 

3121. Chairman.'] Will you state precisely the position of your railwa}' at 
present, that is to say, the precise number of miles under construction, with 
the respective periods at which the various sections will be completed ?—There 
is at present open 88£ miles; there is under construction, to be completed by 
December 1858 , 105 miles; by September 1859 , 100 miles; by November 1859 , 
25 miles; by June 1860 , 190 miles ; by February 1861 , 13 | miles; by December 
1861 , 9 miles; there is about to be let, to be completed by March 1862 , 595 
miles, and there is in abeyance 110 miles; making a total 1,235 miles, the whole 
of the company’s undertaking. 

3122. That includes the works required for the completion of the ascent of the 
ghauts ?—Yes, 

3123. Now state to the Committee the amount of capital you are authorised to 
raise, the amount you have already raised, and the amount that you have already 
paid into the hands of the East India Company, with the interest thereupon ?— 
The amount of share capital, including two millions which has just been created, 
is eight millions, which gives borrowing powers to the extent of 2,666,666/.; 
the amount paid up on shares is 3 , 348,938 /. 3 s. 1 d., and a call has been made 
upon the two millions, to which I referred, to the amount of 200,000 /.; there 
has been raised on loan 333,300 /., making the total paid up to the present time 
3 , 682,238 l. 3 s. id., out of a capital of eight millions. I am not prepared at this 
moment to give you the exact figures of the interest we have received, but in 
round numbers it is about 460 , 000 /. 

3124. Is that capital of eight millions the amount which it is estimated is 
sufficient for the completion of the whole 1,200 miles of railway ?—It is thought 
•possible that something further may be required, but not of any great amount; 
possibly another million. 

3125. In regard to that portion of the line which is opened, can you furnish 
the Committee with a tabulated statement of the amount of receipts, and like¬ 
wise 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 219 

wise of the amount which bas been repaid to the Government in payment of 
interest upon capital expended upon that portion of the line?—The repayment to 
the Government is not in respect of interest advanced upon the particular section 
of railway opened and at work, but generally on account of interest advanced bv 
them. * 7 

3126. What is the total amount that you have repaid to the Government out 
of your receipts?—About 70 , 000 /. out of 460 , 000 /. 

3127. Mr. Stephenson.'] Is that towards redeeming the interest they have paid 
upon capital spent upon the line already opened ?—Something beyond that; it 
is capital generally. 

3128. Chairman.] Have the receipts upon those portions of the line already 
opened equalled the estimate of traffic originally formed ?—I believe they far 
exceed it, for this reason, that the original estimate was based upon the goods 
traffic of the country, and left out of account the passenger traffic ; the receipts 
upon the line opened have arisen in a very large proportion from passengers 
alone, the company not being in a position to command the goods traffic of the 
country until they have extended the line further into the interior. 

3129. Can you give a statement of the half-yearly returns since the opening 
of the line ?—I will furnish it. 

3130. Can you state generally that the actual amounts received on account of 
passenger and goods traffic have exceeded even your sanguine expectations ?— 
Certainly. 

•3131. And do you observe a fair increase upon each succeeding half-yearly 
report ?—Certainly; taking the cost of the railway open, at an average of 
9 , 000 /. a mile, the net earnings upon the line open for the year 1857 , were 
equal to 4 b per cent., close upon the amount of the guarantee; they have not 
reached the guarantee as yet. 

3132. Is the neighbourhood of Callian a producing country ?—Not at all. 

3133. So that you have not yet reached a point which enables you to judge 
what the ultimate traffic will be?—We have not reached a point which would 
secure to us the traffic which flows down to Bombay for export; the carts bringing 
down the traffic have to go on to Panwell, a place 22 miles beyond Campoolee, 
the termination of the railway, for the purpose of getting a return load of salt, 
and we find that no reduction we make in the rates is sufficient to induce them 
to leave their goods at Campoolee, because they would still have to go on to 
Panwcll to get their return load of salt and fish. 

3134. Mr. Cheetham.] What is the length of line from Bombay now open ?— 
Eighty-eight and a half miles. 

3135. Will not the carts deliver the goods at the commencement of the 88$ 
miles ?— Panwell is the point to which carts take their loads to get a return 
load of salt, and it is directly opposite Bombay; it is 22 miles from Campoolee, 
while to reach Campoolee we make a detour of 70 miles. 

3136. Do you know 7 in what mode cotton is conveyed from Nagpore to Bombay? 
—Such as comes down is brought in carts, about 8 cwt. in a cart. 

3137. Do you know the cost of transit ?—I do not. 

3138. Do you anticipate that you will be able to secure that traffic ?—I have 
no doubt of it. The cotton brought down was taken to a port called Bewndy, 
and shipped from there to Bombay ; the railway intercepts that cotton about 12 
or 15 miles to the eastward of Bewndy, and the dealers now are delivering- 
cotton at the point at which they reach the railway for the railway company to 
bring it to Bombay, instead of carting it on to Bewndy and sending it by boat 
to Bombay. 

3139. You are taking a portion of that?—A portion of the cotton that comes 
down ; the quantity that comes down is comparatively very small. 

3140. Do you know whether it goes down on the other side of the peninsula ? 
— I am not aware. 

3141. Mr. Stephenson.] Reference was made this morning to a system which 
is followed in the Presidency of Madras, of publishing correspondence which 
takes place between the Government and a railway company, either with 
reference to the officers or other matters of business. Is the same system fol¬ 
lowed in Bombay ?—The practice of placing Government documents in the 

0.61. e e 2 reporters’ 


Mr. T. R. Watt. 


10 June 1858. 



220 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Mr. T. R. Watt, reporters’ room of the secretariat, for The use of the newspapers, is followed in 
- Bombay. 

10 June 1858. 3142. Do you not consider the publication of letters reflecting on any one, 

without first waiting for some explanation, an act of great injustice?—Cer¬ 
tainly ; and in our case it had the effect of making the engineer feel that he was 
unfairly treated. 

3143. Is it calculated not only to extinguish the zeal of the engineer, but also 
to make him discontented with everything around him ?—I think so. 

3144. Chairman.'] I presume the object that the railway company had, in at 
once laying down a double line at the point of bifurcation at Callian, was to meet 
the heavy traffic that may be expected there to unite from the two great 
branches ?—It was so; the railway in the first instance had been constructed as 
a double line as far as Tanna, and it was thought that it would be better to com¬ 
plete the double line to the point of bifurcation, so as to have a double line when 
the railway was completed. 

3145. What is the general character of the tunnelling work on the two Ghauts; 
is it difficult?—Particularly difficult in some parts; sometimes they come across 
a dyke of rock, which is extremely difficult to penetrate. 

3146. Were the two works commenced at the same time?—No; the Thul 
Ghaut works were only commenced this season, that is in February last; the 
works on the Bhore Ghaut were begun in the year 1856 . 

3147. Are the same complaints made of the unwholesome character of the 
country upon the Thul Ghaut, as upon the Bhore Ghaut ?—Generally speaking, 
it is considered much more unhealthy down on the Ghaut itself, than on the top 
of the Ghaut. 

3148. Have you experienced a similar difficulty in regard to labour for the 
works upon the Thul Ghaut as upon the Bhore Ghaut ?—We have scarcely had 
any experience on the Thul Ghaut, the works have been commenced so 
recently. 

3149. So far as you have advanced with the works upon the Bhore Ghaut, 
have you found that your rate of progress has agreed with the estimate you 
formed ?—As I mentioned before, the works were backward ; the progress made 
on them was not what Mr. Berkeley considered ought to have been made, but 
latterly the contractor has succeeded in making better progress; the actual pro¬ 
gress of construction has not come up to our expectation. 

3150. Mr. Crawford.] Have you any observation to make in reference to the 
system of supervision as administered in this country ?—I think not; the altera¬ 
tion which has been made, giving the ex-officio director authority to concur in the 
granting of indents from abroad, is well calculated to prevent delay arising. 

3151. Do you not think that it would expedite business if the ex-officio 
director were empowered to consent at the Board to the proceedings of the 
Board ?—No doubt of it; the reference to the Court necessarily involves a delay, 
the average of which, in our case, is, I think, about three weeks. 

3152. Chairman.] Have you any other observation you wish to offer to the 

. Committee ?—No. 




SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


221 


Luna, 14 ° die Junii, ] 858 . 


members present : 


Hon. H. G. Liddell, 
Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Mr. C. Bruce. 

Mr. H. A. Bruce. 


Mr. Clnetham. 
Mr. Crawford. 
Mr. D. Seymour. 
Colonel Sykes. 


Honourable H. G. LIDDELL, in the Chair. 


IL illiam Patrick Andrew , Esq. called in ; and Examined. 

3 * 53 * Chairman .] YOU are the Chairman, I believe, of the Scinde Railway 
Company?—I am. 

3154. Will you inform the Committee when that company was first formed ?— 
I might premise by stating that the railway was surveyed 'by a very eminent 
engineer in the Bombay service, Lieutenant Chapman, in 1853; these surveys 
made by him were approved of by Colonel Turner, the superintending engineer 
of the province. I introduce that to show that before any step was taken here, 
it went through all the investigation upon the spot that appeared necessary. 

3 ] 55 * By whose instructions was that survey undertaken?—By the instruc¬ 
tions of the Bombay Government, on the recommendation of Mr. Frere, the com¬ 
missioner in Scinde. 

3456. By the instructions of the Government unconnected with any private 
company ?—Entirely ; the surveys were approved of by Colonel Turner, the 
superintending engineer of the province; by Mr. Frere, the commissioner; 
and also by Major Crawford, the consulting engineer to the Government of 
Bombay. 

3157. What was the whole extent surveyed at that time?—At that time the 
whole extent was no miles between Kurrachee and Kotree, which is exactly 
opposite Hyderabad. 

3158. When was your company formed ?—All these reports came home to 
this country ; and, on the basis of those reports and surveys, a company was 
formed in December 1854. 

3159. When those surveys were sanctioned by the Government, w as there any 
intention on the part of the Government of constructing the line themselves ?—1 
believe so. 

3160. Was any offer or advance made by the local Government to place the 
construction in the hands of a private company ?—None whatever; the informa¬ 
tion was sent home, and I was requested by the authorities here to undertake the 
construction of it by forming a company. I was privately requested ; and on 
that private request made to me, I made an official application on the 10th Janu¬ 
ary 1855. 

3161. When did you obtain your Act?—The Act of Incorporation was granted 
on the 2nd July 1855. 

3162. I presume the same course was pursued as with regard to other lines; 
you obtained the Government guarantee, to what extent?—We had the Govern¬ 
ment guarantee of 5 per cent, on the amount required to complete the line, and 
permission to commence with a capital of 500,000 /. 

3163. Was that the amount of capital estimated as sufficient to complete the 
works ?—No; I believe the Government engineer estimated the capital at 600,000/.; 
our engineers did not concur in that, but thought 750,000/. would be required, 
being half as much again as we received the guarantee upon. 

3164. When did you turn the first sod?—The line was commenced on the 
29th April last. 

3165. Will you explain to the Committee the cause of that considerable delay 

O.61. EE 3 which 


IV. P. yhulrexv , 
Esq. 


14 June 1858. 






222 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


W, P. Andrew , 
Esq. 


14 June 1858. 


which seems to have occured between the obtaining of the act of incorporation 
and the actual commencement of the works. I should like to know first when 
you sent out your staff ?—The survey of the line commenced in June 1855, so 
that no time was lost on our part, and all the surveys were completed in August 
1857 ; we surveyed eleven different routes. 

3166. You have made a great many surveys from the points named, Kurrachee 
to the Indus ?—Eleven surveys altogether. 

3167. Explain who called for those surveys and why so many appear to have been 
rejected ?—The Government of Bombay, on the recommendation of the acting con¬ 
sulting engineer, Capt. Rivers, and others, required the different surveys ; soon after 
our surveyors went out, all the local authorities, both in Bombay and in Scinde were 
changed ; Mr. Frere came to this country, and also Major Crawford, and the result 
was that a number of new officials were the parties who had to decide on the 
matter, and they were aided in the confusion that was created. 

3168. I believe Mr. Freer has been throughout completely favourable to the 
scheme ?—Undoubtedly. 

3169. Complete your history of the survey?—One of our own engineers wished 
the railway to go to Sehwan. 

3170. That is a point much higher up the Indus?—Much higher up. One 
Government officer, I believe, did not desire the railway at all. He wished the Indus 
turned into an old channel or route ; but I do not think it right that I should mention 
all their crochets,.as they all came to nothing: each had a project of his own ; 
and the result was that our time was frittered away and our money lost, and they 
seemed to forget that we had executed a contract for a particular line to go from 
Kurrachee to Kotree on the Indus, but no other line. The local Government 
had every authority to interfere, and to say how we were to connect these two 
points, but they had no authority to compel us to deviate from these two 
termini, because the contract was executed, and the whole matter had been 
investigated on the spot, and approved of by the then existing authorities. 

3171. Do I understand that these conflicting propositions and various schemes 
were mooted and discussed in the absence of Mr. Frere and Colonel Crawford ?— 
Yes; in the absence of both those two gentlemen. 

3172. What was the course taken by the Home Government?—The Home 
Government have never had the slightest hesitation in adhering to the plan as 
originally agreed upon. They have given us uniformly every facility possible, 
and they sent out, at my request, most stringent instructions to the Government 
of Bombay that our original plan should be adhered to. 

3173. Mr. D. Seymour.] Was it not a misunderstanding of the orders originally 
sent cut by the Home Government to the Government of Bombay that led to the 
delay?—I think it was partly owing to that; but also in some slight degree to 
their apparently not being aware of the fact that we had made a contract for a par¬ 
ticular line ; if they had recollected that single circumstance, they could not, what¬ 
ever their wishes might have been, have desired our people to make surveys which 
were not contemplated. 

3174. Chairman.] When two points were laid down, Kurrachee and Kotree, 
and a railway sanctioned to be made between those two points, how could any 
misunderstanding take place?—The local authorities appeared to consider our 
railway staff as their servants, and they very much at first ignored us, and they 
were aided in that view by the circumstance of one of our engineers having pre¬ 
viously been in the employment of the Government; he affected still to be under 
the protection of the local authorities, and to look to them rather than to us ; it 
came to such a point that it led to his removal, and to our sending out the 
most stringent orders to our local agent there, that he was to take no instructions 
from any quarter except from ourselves. 

3175. In fact, the delay originated partly on the part of one of your own 
servants, who, although in your employ, still professed to consider himself in the 
employ of the Government?—Partly so; but it was principally owing to the 
Government ignoring the contract into which we had entered. 

3176. Is tile line now in the course of construction between these two points, 
the identical line which was originally sanctioned ?—Exactly 

3177. There has been no deviation whatever ? — No; we would not allow any 
whatever. 

3178. What 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


223 


3*78. What is the exact amount of time that has been lost in commencing the 
line ?—I should say 18 months. 

3 l 79 * "'hat state are the works at present?—They are just commenced. 

3180. Are they being constructed through the medium of contractors, or by 
the railway company ?—Through the medium of English contractors, Messrs. 
Bray. 

3181. Have they undertaken the construction of the entire line?—They have 
undertaken the construction of the entire line, we finding the permanent way 
materials : they construct all the masonry and embankments. 

3182. I believe you have recently sent out 30 miles of permanent way, in 
addition to 30 miles already sent some time back ?—Yes; it is all either out now, 
or in the course of shipment; we have, I think, 80 miles of permanent wav at 
Kurrachee, the whole distance being 110. 

3183. Does the character of the country afford facilities for railway construc¬ 
tion ?—It is extremely favourable. 

3184. Have you much difficulty in obtaining material for ballast?—I think 
not. 

3185. What do you get there?—It is stone. 

3186. On the spot:—On the spot. 

3187. This line of railway is in connexion with a very large scheme of river 
steam navigation, is it not ?—It is. 

3188. I believe that extends from Hyderabad to Moultan ?—It does, but that 
is comparatively a recent arrangement. 

3189. Describe to the Committee generally what the whole scheme of con¬ 
struction of the Scinde Railway Company is with its extensions?—The Scinde 
Railway proper is from Kurrachee to Kotree on the Indus, a distance of 110 
miles. I had better state that we have received orders to survey a branch from 
Hyderabad to Oomerkote, to unite with the Bombay and Baroda Railway at 
Deesa; an extension of that line is contemplated from Ahmedabad to Deesa. 
Before going to the steam navigation I had better state that, at the same time, 
we were requested to survey a line fiom Sukkur towards Dadur at the month of 
the Bolan Pass ; that survey we have partly accomplished, and we find the country 
remarkably easy. Then, before speaking of the Punjaub, I had better describe 
the communication proposed to be established between the Scinde Railway proper 
and the Punjaub; this communication was proposed in the first instance to be 
by steamers of light draught towing cargo barges. 

3190. Is the state of the river such at all seasons of the year that the steamers 
can work between these two points ?—At all seasoas of the year. 

3191. What is the whole distance from Hyderabad to the point you have 
named, Sukkur?—About 200 miles. 

3192. What is it to Moultan ?—Moultan is 570 miles from Hyderabad. 

3193. Have you any further extension schemes in view?—The Punjaub Rail¬ 
way begins at Moultan, and has been surveyed from that point to Lahore and 
(Jmritsur. 

3194. Is the Punjaub Railway in the hands of the same company?—It is. 

3195. 1 believe you have a still further extension from Lahore to Peshawur ? 
—We have been required to survey from Lahore to Peshawur, and that has been 
proceeded with. 

3196. By whom have you been ordered to survey the liner—By the local 
authorities. Sir John Lawrence in the Punjaub, and Mr. Frere in Scinde. 

3197. At whose expense are the surveys made?—Some at the expense of the 
Scinde Railway Company, the money being kept in a suspense account until it was 
decided who made the railway ultimately, but in other cases, the Government 
have found the money themselves. 

3198. What is the whole amount of capital upon which you have received a 
guarantee for the purpose of railway construction ?—For the Scinde Railway, one 
million, and for the Punjaub Railway, one million and a half. 

3199. What is the precise limit of the Scinde Railway?—The Scinde Railway 
proper merely extends from Kurrachee to Kotree. 

0.61. E e 4 3200. You 


IV. P. Andrew, 
Esq. 

14 June 1858. 


224 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


W. P. Andrew, 
Esq. 


14 June 1858. 


3200. You do not include the line from Sukkur to Dadur?—That is a branch. 

3201. Those lines are not yet sanctioned of which the surveys have been called 
for ?—Certainly not. 

3202. In regard to the river navigation, which forms so important a part of this 
scheme, is that being carried on under a guarantee?—That is being carried on 
under a guarantee similar to the guarantee given for the railways. 

3203. Of the same amount?—Similar in nature; it is a guarantee of 5 per 
cent, on 250,000/. 

3204. Has that navigation scheme actually come into practice yet?—That has 
been beset with considerable difficulties, and the proper navigation of the Indus 
is a problem still to be solved. The authorities, soon after my proposition was 
agreed to, appointed a commission to go to the Danube and Rhone, and other 
rivers in Europe, to collect information with regard to the latest improvements, 
and to assist us to arrive at a conclusion as to the kind of boat we had better 
build. 

3205. Was Colonel Crawford a member of that commission?—Yes, with Cap¬ 
tain Balfour of the Indian Navy, and a marine engineer; they recommended a 
boat 400 feet in length, and drawing two feet of water. We received at the 
same time from India, reports from our own engineers, and letters from the local 
authorities there, cautioning us in the strongest manner against using a boat 
beyond 200 feet in length, which was the exact length which we had ourselves 
recommended before the appointment of this commission ; a boat on that principle, 

drawing two feet of water is now in the course of construction as a model 
© 

boat. 

3206. Colonelcies.] Is that without joints?—Certainly; without joints. 

3207. Chairman.'] Beyond the delay which you have described in the com¬ 
mencement of the works, have you since experienced any difficulty or embarrass¬ 
ment from the Government superintendence?—We still feel that we are unduly 
fettered by the minuteness of the Government supervision in India; there is a 
Government deputy consulting engineer at Kurrachee, who is amenable to the 
consulting engineer at Bombay of Government, who corresponds with us at 
Kurrachee, and the Commissioner in Scinde has only limited power; w'e have 
these two authorities, who must refer to a superior authority at Bombay; so that 
the difficulties we have experienced from Government supervision have been 
greater I apprehend than probably those of any other company; I foresaw it 
as soon as I formed the compnay; and if the Committee have no objection, I 
should like to read an extract from a letter, which I addressed to the Court on 
the 3d August 1855 on this point: “ I would respectfully suggest to the consi¬ 
deration of the Honourable Court the desirableness of vesting the necessary 
supervision and control to be exercised by the Government over the proceedings 
of the railway company in some of the Government officers in Scindc so to 
save time and correspondence with Bombay as much as possible.” The East 
India House were good enough to write in reply to that letter, that they w T ould 
communicate with the local Government, and direct them to carry out to some 
extent my suggestion. This was their answer received from Mr. Dickinson, and 
dated 13th August 1855; “ I am commanded to inform you that the Court of 
Directors of the East India Company see no objection to the proposed letter of 
instructions to the Scinde Railway Company’s agent in India, submitted with your 
letter, No. 28, dated the 3d instant. I have also to state with reference to the 
concluding paragraph of your letter, that the Bombay Government will be 
instructed to adopt measures for the efficient and expeditious exercise of the 
supervision on behalf of Government.” 

3208. Mr. H. A. Bruce.] Were the two subordinate authorities the commis¬ 
sioner, Mr. Frere, and the deputy consulting engineer?—Yes, one subordinate 
to the Government of Bombay, and the other to the consulting engineer of the 
Government of Bombay. 

3209. Chairman.] When you addressed that letter, in 1855, to the Court of 
Directors, and received that answer, that letter was communicated to India?— 
Exactly. 

3210. I wish to know what steps, if any, have since been taken in consequence 
of that letter?—Several modifications have been made in the supervision in Scinde 
in consequence of our remonstrance ; but more particularly in consequence of a 
strong remonstrance addressed by Mr. Frere to the Government of Bombay. 

3211. Has 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 225 

3211. Has ihe practical result been that Mr. Frere has been invested with 
larger powers than he previously possessed ?— Certainly; but not to the extent 
we wish. 

3212. You are not even now satisfied with the freedom of action of the Com¬ 
missioner?—Certainly not. 

3213. The railway works having by your showing only been commenced a 
n.onth, it is necessary that you should explain in what mode you have still felt, 
notwithstanding the remonstrances made, the embarrassments and obstructions 
consequent upon the limited powers possessed by the Commissioner?—Although 
the railway has only been officially commenced in last April, the engineers 
have been at work for several months in clearing the ground for a station, 
and for bungalows, and works of that description, and in making provision for 
the landing of stores. I will give you one illustration out of 100: they had 
an opportunity of purchasing a locomotive for constructing a portion of the line 
at a reasonable rate, but the Commissioner could not sanction it, and before 
they got the sanction of the Bombay Government, it was gone. 

3214. Where was that locomotive obtained?—It happened to be for sale at 
Bombay. 

3215. In consequence of the system pursued, the opportunity for the purchase 
was lost?-—Yes, in consequence of the routine; they had not the power of 
getting a bucket or any trifle without applying to Bombay for it. 

3216. I presume you have submitted your plans and sections to Government? 
—They are referred to the Bombay Government. 

3217. Possibly seme delay has occurred in consequence of that?—lam not 
aware of it. 

3218. Have you made any representations since 1855 to the Government upon 
the difficulties which you have experienced from their superintendence ?—I have. 
I will, with your permission, give an extract from a letter which I wrote to Sir 
James Melvill, on the 30th May 1857, explaining the nature of the supervision : 
“ Having foreseen, at an early period after the formation of the company, the 
absolute necessity of avoiding reference to Bombay, with a view to the saving of 
time and an unnecessary expenditure of the funds of the company, I ventured, in 
the concluding paragraph of my letter No. 28, dated 3d August 1855, to express 
mvself to the following effect, viz.: ‘I would respectfully suggest to the con¬ 
sideration of the Honourable Court, the desirableness of vesting the necessary 
supervision and control to be exercised by the Government over the proceedings 
of the railway company in some of the Government officers in Scinde, so as to 
save time and correspondence with Bombay as much as possible.’ The Board 
having Lad under their frequent and anxious consideration the view expressed in 
the foregoing, hope that the Court will concur with them in the necessity of em¬ 
powering the provincial Government of Scinde to come to a decision on all matters 
submitted to them by their agent and representative, and thereby avoid the 
recurrence of the delays and inconveniences which have hitherto retarded the 
progress of this company. In conclusion I beg to express my conviction, that should 
Mr. Warren, the agent, be permitted to carry out the views of this Board, as 
sanctioned by the Honourable Court, without the intervention of any further ob¬ 
stacles, the necessary documents upon which the contracts for the construction of 
the line can be let will be received by the Board, so as to ensure a commencement 
of the works during the ensuing cold season, and the completion of the line within 
two years. But in the event of a continued misconstruction of the views of 
the Honourable Court, or other circumstances beyond the control of this Board, 
or of their representative in India being interposed in bringing the present 
survey to a teiminaticn, a third year will have elapsed before the initiative 
can be taken in an enterprise cf increasing political and commercial impor¬ 
tance, for which was anticipated a speedy and favourable development, and 
for the furtherance of which I had the personal assurance of the Governor 
of Bombay of the cordial co-operation and support of the local authorities. 
I avail myself of this opportunity to request that you will be good enough 
to convey to the Honourable Court the best acknowledgments of this Board, 
for the facilities they have hitherto extended to them for pressing forward 
the execution of the important undertaking committed to their charge.” I 
thought it hut fair to read that as I read the former one, showing that while the 
local authorities have delayed us by vexatious and minute supervision, the home 

0 gj F f authorities 


IV. P. Andrew 
Esq. 


14 June 1858 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


12 2 () 

authorities both in the India House and in the Board of Control have given us 
every facility. The reply of Sir James Melvill was to the effect, that instructions 
had been sent out, and would be again sent out. 

3219. I do not understand you to complain of any delay at home, nor do I 
understand you to complain of the Government supervision in India, provided it 
is not carried to too great an extent ?—No; I should desire above all things the 
Government supervision, if it were confined to settling great principles ; but I do 
think that a railway company should have the power and responsibility of carrying 
out the works after they are once decided upon. 

3220. I understand you to say that the greatest amount of delay has occurred 
in consequence of the continual references that, have to be made from the Com¬ 
missioner to the local Government of Bombay, he not having sufficient power to 
forward the works to which he is himself’ eminently favourable ?—That is so. 

3221. Mr. Crawford.'] The Committee understand that the whole of the com¬ 
munications by the Valley of the Indus are placed in the hands of the com¬ 
pany with which you are connected ?—They are all in the hands of the same 
company. 

3222. The Scinde Railway and the Punjaub Railway ?—Yes. 

3223. And the Flotilla Company ?—It is not a company ; they are all under the 
Scinde Railway Company, and incorporated by the Scinde Railway Company’s 
Act of 1857. 

3224. Have you separate guarantees for each of these undertakings ?—We 
have. 

3225. So that the profits upon one branch of the undertaking will not be taken 
to make up for any deficiency upon the others ?—The capital accounts and the 
revenue accounts are kept distinct: they are three separate undertakings under 
the same management, having no financial connexion whatever. 

3226. What is the amount of capital required to complete the Scinde Railway 
to Kotree?—We think about 800,000/. 

3227. And you have a guarantee to the extent of 1,000,000 /. ?—Yes. 

3*228. How much is required to complete the communication between Hyder¬ 
abad and Moultan by the river?—We think 250,000 /. would be sufficient. 

3229. You have that guaranteed ?—We have. 

3230. How much do you estimate will be required to make the railway from 
Moultan to Lahore and Umritsur?—Two millions and a half. 

3231. You have that?—No, we have only a guarantee on one million and 
a half. 

3232. In point of fact, for the general purposes of your company, you still 
require a guarantee only of one million more?—Yes, for those already sanctioned. 

3233. Any saving there may be upon the guarantee of one million you would 
apply to the line between Kurrachee and Kotree?—Just so. 

3234. Mr. C. Bruce .] Do you consider that a guarantee was absolutely neces¬ 
sary to enable you to raise the funds?—Yes. 

3235. Mr. Crawford .] You surveyed for a line between Hyderabad and 
Deesa?—It is authorised, but we have not surveyed it. 

3236. You have no detailed knowledge of that line?—No detailed know’- 
ledge. 

3237. Have you made any surveys from Lahore southward in the direction of 
the East Indian Railway Company?—Not as yet, we have not been authorised to 
make any surveys in that direction. 

3238. Have you any view in contemplation for improving the harbour of 
Kurrachee, as a part of the enterprise of the company?—No; the East India 
Company are about to do it, and probably I may mention that the subject was 
referred to Mr. Walker, the eminent harbour engineer, who sent out a civil 
engineer under his direction to suggest the necessary improvements; that gentle¬ 
man has come home, and he has formed a very favourable opinion, I understand, 
of the harbour. 

3239. When did Sir James Melvill join your Board as ex officio director?— 
It was on the 13th March 1855. 

3240. You say you consider Government supervision desirable?—I do. 

3241. But subject to the conditions you attach to it?—Exactly. 

3242. Colonel Sykes.] You stated that the company had made a contract 

with 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 227 

wait the East India Company to carry a line from Kurraehee to Kotree 
direct ?—-Yes. 

^- 43 * And that you entered into a contract with the Court for that purpose ? 

3244. What was the date of that contract?—4th January 1856. 

3245. What was the date of your turning the first sod ?—The 29th April last. 

3246. In the time that lias elapsed between the date of the contracts and the 
29th April last, you have attributed the delays that have taken place to projects 
°* var *° us Parties for diverting the railway from the line specified in the con¬ 
tract?—Yes. 

3 2 47 * Did any ot these projects for the deviation originate with the Court of 
Directors or with the Government in India ?—With the local authorities ; cer¬ 
tainly not with the Court of Directors. 

3248. What do you mean by the local authorities ?—They originated with the 
acting consulting engineer of the Bombay Government, and the deputy consulting 
engineer at Kurraehee, and with the acting commissioner, and also one of our 
own engineers. 

3249. Then, in fact, these conflicting projects were in subversion of the 
contract already entered into ?—Entirely foreign to the object of the contract. 

3250. And which contract you might have commenced upon immediately 
in 1855 ?—El the early part of 1856. 

3251. Do you expect any delay on the part of the superintending authorities, 
now that you have commenced your operations ?—I do. 

_ 3252. On what ground?— From the continual reference that is necessary from 
Kurraehee to Bombav. 

3 2 53 - You have said that orders have been twice sent out by the Court of 
Directors to the Bombay Government to invest the Commissioner in Scinde with 
extended powers ?—I have. 

32.54. Then how can you say that the continual references will necessarily 
obstruct the progress of the works ?—Because, although the Commissioner in 
Scinde has had extended powers given to him, still they are not extensive 
enough. 

3255* I he extended powers, I suppose, arc to enable him to act upon’his own 
authority with regard to trifling details, which do not involve matters of principle 
or any large outlay ?—Exactly. 

3256. Upon all other matters he has now the power to decide by his own 
authority?—He is still quite dissatisfied with the limited authority given 
to him. 

3257. What is the limitation ?—There is no end of things that he ought to 
decide upon with the consulting engineer on the spot, and which are still referred 
to Bombay; the building of bungalows, and a variety of details that he cannot 
decide upon without a reference. 

3258. All that must be included in the latitude now given ?—It is very limited 
still. 

3259. So far as supervision goes, I do not see that there is likely to be the 
least delay on the part of the Commissioner in Scinde, with the extended 
powers conferred upon him?—But whose powers are still very limited; 
that is the misfortune. I have a letter addressed by Mr. Frere to the 
Governor of Bombay, from which I will read an extract with the per¬ 
mission of the Committee: “ But I would respectfully submit that there 
can be still less question that the orders now given will not carry out the wishes 
of the Honourable Court, as expressed in their despatch on the subject. The Rail¬ 
way Company had urged that a larger amount of the controlling power reserved 
to Governor should be vested in the Commissioner in Scinde, and the Honour¬ 
able Court thereupon remarked, £ With reference to the concluding paragraph 
regarding the control of the proceedings of the Railway Company in Scinde, while 
we are not prepared to remove it from your supervision, we are desirous that 
all unnecessary delay should be avoided in the mode of exercising the Govern¬ 
ment control, and that the settlement of ail details connected with the affairs of 
the railway should be effected without imposing upon your Government the task 
of deciding upon each particular question, and without creating that delay which 
the distance of Scinde from the seat of your Government must entail. We 
request, therefore, that you will consider what plan would best suit the circuin- 

0.61. ff 2 stances 


W. P~ Andrew , 
Esq. 


14 June 1858 



228 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


r. P. Andrew, 
Esq. 


14 June 1858. 


stances of the case in point, and that you will acquaint us with the arrangement 
which you may make for delegating to the Commissioner in Scinde, to such extent 
as you may think advisable with regard to details, the control which is secured to 
your Government by the deed of contract.” This letter is dated the 4th February 
last. 

3260. The fact is, that so far as the home authorities were concerned, the diffi¬ 
culties and obstructions you pointed out, were ordered to be removed before you 
commenced your works ?—Certainly. 

3261. What am I to understand by your communications with the Board of 
Control and the Board of Directors ; had you any direct communications with the 
President of the Board?—Frequent. 

3262. Did the two bodies equally approve of the instructions sent out ?—When 
I received a communication from the Court of Directors, I knew that it carried 
with it the approval of the Board of Control. 

3263. Was not your steam navigation project to connect Kotree with Moultan 
of comparatively recent date?—It was recently made public, but almost as 
soon as the Scinde Railway Company was formed, I had an interview with the 
President of the Board of Control, Mr. Vernon Smith ; and he asked me what I 
would recommend as the best mode of opening up communications from Kur- 
rachee by the Valley of the Indus. I said, I considered it would be pre¬ 
mature to have a railway all along the valley, and that I thought it would 
be advisable to establish steam communication from Hyderabad to Moultan, 
and then to begin the railway from Moultan to Lahore, and ultimately to 
Peshawur. He was so pleased with that, that he wished me to put it in the 
form of a memorandum ; I did so, and soon afterwards Major Hamilton, the 
Commissioner of Moultan, came to this country ; he approved of the plan, and 
I requested he would go with me to the President and tell him so ; he told the 
President of the Board of Control that it was the very thing that India required, 
and that all the authorities on the spot would approve of it. The President 
to the Board of Control desired me to bring it forward officially, which I declined, 
as I had sent the memorandum out to Sir John Lawrence, Mr. Frere, and other 
eminent persons, for their advice and assistance, and any suggestion they might 
make; but instead of making any alterations, Mr. Temple, the Secretary to the 
Punjaub Commissioner, said they entirely approved of my suggestions, and had 
adopted them. 

3264. What was the date of your official communication to the Court to 
sanction the project ?—The date of the application to the East India Company 
was the 14th March 1856, and for the guarantee the 5th January 1857. 

3265. Were you not aware that a previous project for the navigation of the 
whole Indus up to Lahore, had been partly sanctioned by the Court of Directors 
at the time you made that application ?—It was subsequent to my memorandum. 

3266. I am speaking of the official application?—I think it was made about 
the time I applied for the guarantee. I was perfectly cognisant of Mr. Bourne’s 
plan, but to that plan I attached no importance. 

3267. Were you not aware that several years ago, a reference had been made 
to India upon the subject of his plan ?—Not of the Indus. 

3268. But of the Ganges?—Yes. 

3269. The principle being the same for every river?—I was aware of that. 

3270. ^our steam flotilla merely connects two termini?—Two termini. 

3271. It does not embrace the whole navigation of the Indus ?—No., 

3272. Do you consider that the commerce of the Indus is likely to be able to 
support two navigation projects?—l should say so, most certainly. 

3273. Mr. Cheetham. ] Have you informed the Committee when the first cor¬ 
respondence arose between yourself and the East India Company’s Directors ?—My 
official correspondence about the flotilla did not begin until the 14th March 1856. 

3274. When was your correspondence with respect to the railway first com¬ 
menced ?—In the early part of 1855. 

3275. When did you get the guarantee upon the capital to be expended in 
railways?—In the early part of 1855. 

3276. In the descriptive book of your scheme, which I have before me, 

I observe that the most prominent arguments in its favour are held to be those 
for military purposes?—In a commercial point of view, I think it is very im¬ 
portant ; but in a military point of view, it is of infinite importance. 

3277. Did 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


!29 


3277. Did your scheme originally embrace a line of railway from Hyderabad 
along the river banks ?—No. 

3278. You propose, then, to use the river?—To use the river. 

3279. Is there any navigation there now, except by private parties?—The 
East India Government have a steam flotilla on it now. 

3280. Is that used for any purposes of commercial traffic?—They more than 
require all their steamers for their own purposes. 

3281. Is there a considerable number of private boats?—There are large 
numbers of the native craft. In answer to the question that Colonel Sykes put to 
me about the commerce, I may mention that, as regards the commerce, both 
Major Hamilton, from Moultan, and Mr. Frere, from Kurrachee, told me that 
goods were often laying at both ends continuously for months and months, wait¬ 
ing for a steamer to carry them, and Mr. Frere said that he had known instances 
of goods at Kurrachee being sent to Bombay, and ultimately to Calcutta, and 
then from Calcutta up the valley of the Ganges to go to the Punjaub; that was 
for want of means of transport. 

3282. You have no doubt, then, as to the flotilla part of your scheme being 
remunerative ?—None whatever. 

3283. You were asked a question regarding another plan proposed for the 
same object, Mr. Bourne’s plan ; are you aware whether that has also been 
sanctioned by the East India Company ?—They have granted a subsidy to it. 

3284. You are not aware when the application lor that vvas made?—I am not 
aware of the exact date, but I think it was about the same time as the application 
which I sent in was made for the guarantee of the flotilla. 

3285. That has no reference to any railway ?—It has not. 

3286. Colonel Sykes.] I believe the Government steamers take merchandise 
when they have the opportunity ? —Certainly. 

3287. Mr. C. Brace.] Do you consider that the local means of transport by 
the country boats is exceedingly imperfect, and not to be relied on ? I think it 
is very imperfect, but I think it would be very much improved when they are 
relieved from the navigation of the Delta. 

3288. You were asked about plans being laid before the Directors of the East 
India Company for the improvement of the navigation of the Indus and of other 
rivers, can you tell us with whom those plans originated, and by whom they were 
first brought before the notice of the East India Company s Directors t Private 
parties have had steamers on the Ganges for many years, following the example 

of the Government. . 

3289. Have not the engineer officers of the East India Company pressed upon 
the"Government the advantages of improving the navigation of the great rivers of 

India?—Very much so, particularly Colonel Cotton. „ 

3290. That object has occupied the attention of the Court of Directors r veiy 

fre 32g"!' y Has anything been done in the direction of improving that navigation ? 
—Nothing has been done to tl.e rivers themselves, but by granting a subsidy to 
Mr. Bourne for introducing his mode, and giving a guarantee to the Scinde 
Railway Company for introducing their steamers, the East India Company are 
doing all they can do to encourage the introduction of steamers. 

3292. Mr .Chatham.-] Do you not propose to use the river between Kurrachee 
and Hyderabad ?—Certainly not, except to carry up our stores until the railway 

1S 3203. Are all the productions of the country that come from the north to 
be unshipped at Hyderabad upon the railway to go down to Kurrachee /- 

CC o2<M ly Do you not then submit that traffic to a considerably increased expense ? 
—We do ; hut we consider that is better to pay than lose boats by the dangers 

°* oaq? 6 Mr. C. Bruce.] That is analogous to what takes place in the Ganges in 
avoiding a detour 1 —It is just the same, only in a lesser degree. • 

, 2Q (f Mr H A . Bruce.] You stated that in consequence of these letters addressed 
bvvourselfin 1855 and 1857 to the East India Government, some modifications 

have been introduced between the relations of the Commissioner in^ande and 

the Government of Bombay to facilitate the transaction ol business 1 xes. 

3207 Ha”e those modifications so far improved those relations that your 
engineers could now buy locomotives or other materials they may want without 
reference to the Government of Bombay t o, e leve no . 0008 Mr 

0.61. FF 3 329b - Mr * 


U r . P. Andrew 
Esq. 


14 June 1858. 



23 ° 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


IV. P. Andrew, 
Esq. 

14 June 1858. 


Col. IV. E. Baker 


32Q8. Mr. A. H. Baring .] Do you think you have experienced any more delay 
on your line than the Bombay and Mirzapoor Company have?—I think we have 
experienced more red tape opposition, if I may call it so, than any other com¬ 
pany, from the circumstance I have explained of our being* under a provincial 
authority, without adequate powers. 

3229. Chairman .] Under the terms of your contract with your contractors, 
Messrs. Bray, when do you anticipate the opening* of the whole length ot this 
line?—They are bound to complete it, and to have it in working order in two 
years and a half from the date at which they were put in possession of the land. 

Colonel William Erskine Baker , called in ; and Examined. 

3300. Chairman .] I believe you are a Colonel in the Bengal Engineers ?— 
1 am. 

3301. Will you tell us what position you held in India ?—In March 1851 1 was 
appointed consulting engineer to the Government of India in the railway depart¬ 
ment, and I continued in that department for about four years; in March 18.-35 I 
was appointed Secretary to the Government of India for the Public Works 
Department; holding also the office of consulting engineer, and I remained in 
that position until November 1857, when I came away on sick certificate. 

3302. Are the offices of consulting engineer in the Railway Department, and 
the Secretary to the Government of India in the Public Works Department, still 
held by the same person?—No; after I left. India, but on my strong recom¬ 
mendation, they were separated ; the two offices were too much for one man; 
and, in some respects, they were incompatible. 

3303. What was the nature of your previous employment in India?—I have 
been employed chiefly in constructing irrigation works in the North-western 
Provinces, and in Scinde; for three years I directed the works on the Ganges 
Canal; and during two years and a half that I was at home, I paid a great deal 
of attention to the construction and management of railways. Mr. Robert 
Stephenson was kind enough to afford me facilities for seeing all the works in 
progress under him. 

3304. What was the nature of your duties as consulting engineer to the Go¬ 
vernment of India?—I was the sole medium of communication between the 
Government and the railway company’s agent. I had some discretion to dispose 
of smaller matters, and I referred the more important ones to Government, with 
a specific recommendation ; I examined the line of country over which it was 
proposed to construct a railway. I examined all the designs and estimates; I 
reported on completed works, and audited all the expenditure. 

3305. What are the ways in which reference is made to the several departments 
in Calcutta by the local Government, in regard to lines being constructed in their 
respective Presidencies ?—It is only in very important questions that the local 
Government refer to the Government of India; reports are all sent up for the 
information of the Government of India, but the local Government do not ask 
orders from the Government of India, except in important matters. 

3306. All the reports are furnished to the central departments for their inspec¬ 
tion ?—Yes. 

3307. State on what general principle the Government check over the con¬ 
struction is exercised ?—The desire of the Government, as I understood it, was 
to maintain a real check on all the operations of the railway company, with as 
much consideration as possible for the officers of the railway, that no delay should 
occur that could be avoided on account of mere formalites, and that interference 
should not be carried to such an extent, as that the railway officers should be 
relieved from their oun proper responsibility in the matter. 

3308. I understand the Government interference was intended to be confined 
to matters of importance, politically and commercially, and to matters involving 
a large expenditure, but not so as to interfere in any way with the free scope and 
action of the railway company in the construction of their lines?—So far as the 
engineer’s designs and operations were concerned, that was the case, but with 
respect to the expenditure it would be difficult to exercise a check. 

3309. Describe the proceedings of the Government of India, with regard to 
the enginering details of the railway ?—In the first instance, I examined the 
country through which a projected line of railway is to pass. I accompanied 
the engineer of the railway company, and conferred with him on ail the difficult 
points on the spot. He agreed with me as to the precise line to be staked out, 

and 




SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (R 


ULWAYS). 


23 



land was made over to the railway company without any further intervention of 
the (government of India. 

[ rom }° ur experience in the capacity of military engineer, have you had 
much difficulty in coming to terms with the civil engineers usually with whom 
you have been placed in communication ?—On the whole, I have not; I always 
tried to discuss everything with the engineers as freely as possible beforehand in a 
semi-official way ; if anylhing was brought forward publicly, and I had to dissent 
10m it; there was always a great deai of difficulty in coming to an accom¬ 
modation, but on the whole, I consider we agreed very well on general princi¬ 
ples; 111 some instances, my opinion was deferred to, and in some I gave way, 
not always convinced, but still acting with certain deference to the railway 
engineers. 

33 H- I understand you to say, that you felt a certain amount of deference was 
due to the experience of the civil engineers, whose life had been spent in the con¬ 
struction of this sort of work ?—No doubt, in some respects. 

3312. Describe precisely to what extent you considered yourself responsible for 
the railway works?—To the extent of the advise I gave to the Government, I con¬ 
sidered myself responsible to the Government; ifl recommended anything that the 
engineers recommended, I considered myself responsible equally with them. 

33 1 3 - If you had recommended any deviation of the line, or any alterations in 
the works devised by the railway engineers, you considered yourself responsible for 
that change?—If the Government adopted it; if they did -not adopt it, 1 con¬ 
sidered my responsibility to have ceased. 

33 1 4 * Describe the proceedings of the Government in regard to the check upon 
expenditure r —No expenditure could take place by the railway company, except 
for contingencies, without the sanction of the Government given previously, on 
what w ere called indents ; at first, all these indents were submitted to the Govern¬ 
ment and went round ; there was then about a fortnight’s delay in getting 
them sanctioned, hut by degrees, the consulting engineer anticipated the sanc¬ 
tion of the Government to a great extent, and as the Secretary of the Government 
of late years, I may say that four-fifths of the indents were sactioncd by me with¬ 
out their going to Government previously. 

33 1 5* I understand you to say that all the indents, even when applied for 
from any other Presidencies than that to which your duties were confined, were 
submitted to the Supreme Government ?—That is not so; no indents from the 
other presidencies are submitted to the Supreme Government. The consulting- 
engineer has now leave to sanction, under his own authority, anything under 
500 rupees, except salaries. I believe that extends to all the Presidencies. 

3316. You have told us that it is only in cases of great importance the indents 
are submitted to the Supreme Government; what cases are they ? —It would be 
in the case of large sums of money for establishments, or anything that would 
entail a continuous expense. 

3317. What do you call an establishment'—It would include workpeople, or a 
staff paid continuously. Warrants, called pay bills, for paying money were sub¬ 
mitted also to the consulting engineer for objects that had been sanctioned by 
the Government; he countersigned those pay-bills, and then they were paid by 
the railway company. These pay-bills were submitted afterwards to the accountant 
of the Government, with the monthly accounts of the railway company, in support 
of the several charges, and with the receipts of the people to whom the money 
was paid. 

3318. What latitude was given to the railway officers, in regard to those 
expenses which you call contingencies ” ?—It was very considerable. The con¬ 
tingent bills amount sometimes to between 3,000and 4,000 1 . per month. If 
the charge brought forward under the name of “ contingencies ” was proper in 
itself, and such as could not reasonably have been foreseen, it was passed 
without any reference ; if not, explanation was called for. 

3319. Colonel Sykes.~] You mean that those sums have been paid on their own 
authority ?—Tes. 

3320. Chairman.~\ State the sort of expenses which would be classed under the 
term of “ contingencies ” ?—It would include, in the first place, all travelling 

o.0i. f f 4 expenses. 


Col. )V. E. Baker 


14 June 1858. 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


232 

Col. JV . E. Baker, expenses, and anything, in fact, which it might be necessary to do at once 

--- without the sanction of the Government, even sometimes the taking of land, 

14 June 1858. cutting clown trees, or anything of that sort that they thought it necessary to 
do. The items of contingent hills were very miscellaneous. 

3321. Do I understand that the railway officers have the power of sanctioning 
any expenditure they may consider absolutely necessary without an appeal to the 
Government in the first instance?—Yes. 

3322. The amount being limited of course?—There is no fixed limit, but it is 
understood it is not to be very large ; if it appears that they have incurred 
expenses without sufficient reason for not having applied for sanction previously, 
they would be censured. 

3323. That only applies to the East India Railway r —To the East India Rail¬ 
way. I do not know what the contingent bills of the other railways may be. 

3324. Does your memory serve you with any case in which the amount charged 
under the head of “ contingencies ” appeared large, and was objected to by you 
on that ground?—Not on account of its being large, but items have been 
objected to as being unnecessary, and being such as ought to have been foreseen 
and sanction applied for in the regular way. 

3325. Has much controversy ensued between you and the railway company 
in consequence of these objections on your part?—Only in the first instance; in 
Colonel Kennedy’s time there was some objection as to the hotel charges (and 
afterwards also in my time), which caused a little soreness. 

3326. What were the rules regarding the increase of numbers and salaries of 
establishments ?—In the answer given to Question 794 a mistake was made ; the 
establishments sanctioned in India by the Government of India, and entertained 
in India, were disposed of by the Government of India without any reference 
home ; but questions that referred to establishments obtained at home were 
referred to the Board. 

3327. The statement involved in question 794 is, “ that no increase, however 
trivial, can take place in the staff w ithout the matter going through the whole of 
the departments in India, and the whole of the departments in England, is not 
that correct?—It is not correct, certainly. 

3328. What returns did the Government require to be furnished by the railway 
engineers ?—The accounts of expenditure, and the progress report, w ere the only 
returns that were expected from the engineers; the progress reports were not 
forwarded so punctually as we thought they ought to have been, and that was 
frequently a subject of reference. In answer to question 632, it is remarked 
that the engineers were called upon for frequent returns, and it is with reference 
to that that I wish to correct the statement. 

3329. I gather from you that the intention of the Government in carrying out 
the supervision under the terms of the contract, w as to exercise an efficient check 
upon the expenditure, but as far as possible consistently with that check to leave 
the railway officials free action ?—Yes ; I always understood that that was the 
object of the Government, and I tried to act up to it. 

3330. In regard to the hiring of labour, and the distribution of labour over the 
line, and all matters of that description, you do not interfere, provided it does not 
imply increased expenditure ?—On those parts of the railway that are being con¬ 
structed by the engineers of the railway there has been no interference with regard 
to the employment of labour. 

3331. I will illustrate my question in this way ; supposing the railway autho¬ 
rities thought that the employment of 5,000 additional hands upon one or two 
sections of the line was necessary for its completion within a certain time, that 
would imply an increased expenditure, but would the Government make an . 
objection to it?—If submitted to them they would not, but it would hardly be 
submitted to the Government even in that case, where the work was being con¬ 
structed by the railway company’s engineers ; Mr. Sibley in the Beerbhoom district 
managed the work himself altogether. 

3332. What is your opinion as to the sufficiency of the check recommended by 
Colonel Kennedy by progress reports ?—Reports of that sort are of extreme 
value, no doubt; but as an only check I do not think they are sufficient; 
they show the expenditure on the work, and the quantity of work executed, hut 
they cannot be prepared until all the accounts are completed up to date; that 
involves some time, and the check therefore is not very prompt; the money 

expended 



233 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

expended on incomplete works does not always show in the progress report of 0 o j, w.E. Baker, 

what has been done; until the work is complete you can hardly tell whether _ 

the expenditure up to any date is fair or not; and although it is important, in 14 June 1858. 
a high degree, to have returns of this sort, they can hardly be relied upon as the 
only check in substitution for every other. 

3333 * On what ground lias the Government of Bengal stood out for one flat 
gradient, at a sacrifice, as some have stated, of economy in the first cost?—It lias 
always been believed in India that «e should have to conduct a very large and 
heavy traffic on a low scale of charges; and in order to do it, it is extremely im¬ 
portant to observe the utmost economy in working charges by using full and 
heavy trains; and in order to obtain this we thought it expedient to have flat 
gradients, powerful engines, and a substantial permanent way; it was of the utmost 
importance on that account to keep down the gradients as much as possible. 

333 4. Have you found that the country in India adapts itself to easy gradients r 
—In some parts of our line it was found not possible to have such good gradients 
as we could have wished. In passing the Baj Mahal hills, for instance, it was 
not possible. 

3335 - The general country of India adapts itself to easy gradients?—Yes. 

333 §* Then you think the management of Indian railways, when once con¬ 
structed, may be conducted on an economical footing?—I hope so, and I believe so- 

3337 - Mr. Sibley refers to a great saving which was effected by the adoption 
of a steeper gradient, to which the Government, after much discussion, were 
brought to consent; might not the discussion and delay have been avoided ?— 

In his district it was found possible to have a gradient of one in 1,000, and it was- 
arranged accordingly that one in 1,000 should be the steepest gradient, but on 
getting round the hills by Raj Mahal it was increased to one in 500, and we 
could not, without going to an extraordinary expenditure, get anything flatter 
than that. When we knew that to be the case, there was no objection, in. 
my opinion,'to keeping it down to one in 1,000 in the adjoining districts, because 
the trains must be loaded with reference to one in 500; and therefore 1 told Mr. 

Sibley that wherever he thought it expedient he might reduce his gradients to one 
in 500 throughout his district, where the works were not so far advanced as to 
render it unadvisable. 

3338. Mr. H. A. Bruce.'] There was not much delay in discussing and settling 
this question ?—There was no discussion with Mr. Sibley about it. 

3339. Chairman.] Do you assent to the course followed, on Colonel Kennedy’s 
advice, of adopting the Ganges route in preference to the direct course originally 
proposed ?—Yes. I agree generally wdth Colonel Kennedy’s arguments on that 
point ; and I believe if that line be adopted it will be worked more economically 
than the other: it goes through a more populous and rich country, and whea 
completed it will be of equal political importance with the other, and of superior 
commercial importance. 

3340. I believe the longer route had been sanctioned before you held office 
there?—It had, under Colonel Kennedy; the only order that was sent out to the 
Government of India was to select a line that should cost 1,000,000/. It is 
admitted that the short line might have been earlier completed at a less cost, but 
it is a mistake to suppose that it would not have had large rivers to cross, in 
addition to the Soane, because there are six rivers, such as the East and West 
Barrackur, the Leelajun, the Morhur, the Boorya, and the Bootana. The diffi¬ 
culties in the long line are increased by the drainage of about 18,000 square miles,, 
the drainage of which would not pass under the short line ; and therefore, of 
course, we were-prepared lor a very much larger expense upon the longer line 
than upon the shorter one. I believe, however, that in the short line we should 
not have got* by any means a gradient of 1 in 200, as expected by Mr. Sibley. 

3341. Do you prefer the contract system to what is called the departmental 
method of constructing railway works in India?—At first I preferred the contract 
system, but after experience in the first sections of the line, 1 strongly recommended, 
in oiving the Government my views as to the way in which the extended works 
should be conducted, that they should be carried out by the railway company’s 
engineers. 

3342. State the grounds of that opinion ?—They are stated in a report to 
Government by the consulting engineer, dated 15th March 1853 ; he says, “The 
partial failure of the contract system with us (for such, I fear, must be confessed, 

061. G g aa 



234 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Col. W. E. Baker, as regards both economy and rapidity of construction) is attributable to causes, 

-— some of which are accidental and transitory, others permanent. The former are, 

14 *June 185& principally, the novel nature of the work; the inexperience of the English con¬ 
tractors in the ways of India, and that of the Indian contractors in railway work; 
the absence of high professional standing as railway contractors of those engaged ; 
and the want of capital, which cramps their energies, and renders them so depen¬ 
dent that no temporary suspension of monthly payments i'as a penal measure) can 
be attempted by the railway company without risk of stopping the works alto¬ 
gether. The more permanent objections are the contractors’ profit, and the 
greater expenses necessarily involved in the- contract system, by the double 
establishment required by the contractor for supervising the work, and by the 
engineers for checking it; but these sources of expense would be dried up should 
the railway company determine to execute the work by their own engineers; and 
supposing that the latter were qualified to do justice to a task confessedly new 
to them in many respects, it is my own opinion that fit men might be found fur 
the executive duties; but that those of account must be provided for separately 
and distinctly by the employment of clerks of the works, men who combine a 
qualification in book-keeping with a certain knowledge of railway work.” 

3343. In speaking against the contract system, you refer to the want of ex¬ 
perience in contractors?—Yes. 

3344. That. I suppose, is an evil which will cure itself as they gain further 
experience by remaining in the country ?—It had cured itself in some measure 
with regard to the two contractors employed on the first sections of the line ; the 
two contractors who did then execute their works successfully are still at work, and 
have not failed in their subsequent contracts. 

3345. Upon the subject of contracts, I should like to have your own opinion 
in explanation of the very extensive failure of contractors which has taken place 
upon the whole extent of line of which we are now speaking ; we have it in 
evidence that all but two contractors failed in their undertakings, and that the 
railway company were compelled to take the works into their own hands; to 
what do you attribute that failure ?—To their inexperience and want of capital, 
to their want of agreement with the railway engineers, and in some cases it is 
owing to the disturbances that have lately occurred in consequence of the Sontal 
insurrection at first, and subsequently of the great Indian rebellion. 

3340. Do you think that if those unfortunate occurrences had not taken place, 
these men would have been able to fulfil their undertakings?—I think many of 
them would not have been able to do so, because they had broken down before 
the mutiny commenced. 

3347. You think that no great practical delay has ensued in consequence of the 
failure of those contractors?—I think very considerable delay has occurred in 
consequence ; before the contractors failed there was a long pause, and it was 
still uncertain whether they could go on or not. 

3348. Had not the events of the Sontal rebellion a prejudicial effect upon the 
operations of two, especially, of the contractors employed on that portion of the 
line?—It paralysed them very much, and I should say caused their failure. 

3349. What was the whole extent of work which that firm had under their 
hands ?—One hundred and twenty miles, I believe. 

3350. Why did the Government prefer letting contracts in India to advertising 
for them in England?—It was not understood, so far as I know, that any express 
injunction had been received in India, as has been stated in some part of the 
evidence before this Committee, or that data were to be sent home to invite ten¬ 
ders in England. I had heard from Sir Macdonald Stephenson, and it is referred 
to in Mr. Noad’s evidence, Answer 497, that an English contractor had sent out 
a man to India, and that his report had induced the contractor to declare that he 
would not have anything to say to Indian contracts ; and in a communication from 
Sir Macdonald Stephenson to the Government in India, he also refers to it, because 
he says, “ But it is not generally known that so far back as 1847 the railway 
company invited, and held out every inducement to, the principal of English con¬ 
tractors to embark in these works, but the objections outweighed the inducements.” 
It was understood in India that it was no use to invite contractors in England, and 
we had not complete information of all the works on the line to submit to English 
contractors, and if they had tendered on such very imperfect information as° we 
couid then have given them, without considerable delay in getting more, they 
would have expected a very large margin for risk ; and on the whole, taking all 

these 



235 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

tlxse things into account, 1 did not think it expedient to send home for the ten- Col. IV. E. Baker. 
tiers, in the absence, as I understood, of express directions to do so. - 

335 1 * As a matter of fact, are there many natives who are prepared to under- M «J U * 1C *858, 
take large contracts, and capable afterwards of executing them ?—No native con¬ 
tractors in the Bengal Presidency are prepared to take a length of a railway, and 
construct it. 

3352. The Government, in the construction of any works they may have in hand, 
are not, as I understand, in the habit of inviting native contractors?—They have 
native contractors for subordinate parts, such as the supply of materials, or throw¬ 
ing up earthworks, and even for the construction of any particular single work ; 
but no native contractor would dream of undertaking 20 or 30 miles of railway, 
nor is he competent to do so. 

3553* you find that the native contractor, when he has undertaken a work, 
is generally faithful and punctual in the execution of it?—No; it is always neces¬ 
sary to take security, and even then they often fail in the supply of materials, or 
any work oi that sort they have to do, except earthwork; I believe in that they 
are more faithful and able to fulfil their contract than with respect to any other 
kind of work. 

3354. It has been stated before this Committee that the native appears to have 
some objection to signing his name to a condition, or, in fact, to proceed by the 
ordinary process of tender?—I have not found that the case in my experience in 
Bengal. 

33.55* In reference to the letting of contracts in India, did you recommend the 
sanction of contracts which were actually agreed to '? —Yes, I did, as an alter¬ 
native to the railway company constructing the works themselves. It was under¬ 
stood by Sir M. Stephenson that I would have preferred the railway company 
constructing the work, and in a communication tD the Government he expressed 
his willingness to try it, but at the same time said that he would prefer doing it by 
contract; on that the Government determined not to press it, and agreed to 
their having contracts; and as the tenders seemed to me to be proper in them¬ 
selves, and the prices fair, and the parties said they had capital, and were pre¬ 
pared to go on with the work, I did not object to the contracts. 

3356. When you recommended the sanction of the contract, did you suppose 
that they would he completed within the stipulated time?—I did not; I was 
quite sure they would not; hut I did not see any objection to the early dates 
entered in the contract, as they gave me some power to stimulate the contractors to 
greater exertions. 

3357. You foresaw the difficulty that these men would meet with in the pro¬ 
secution of the works ?—The time was too short, I thought, altogether ; I knew 
they would not be able to do it within that time. 

3358. Did you lay that opinion before the Government?—I am not quite sure 
wether I did or not; very probably I did. 

3359. Has it not been stated that the interference of the Government was 
one of the causes of the failure of the contractors ?—It was not alleged by the 
contractors who failed ; the only contractor in India who has complained of 
the interference of the Government was Mr. Hunt, who has not failed. The 
only way in which they have complained of the Government interference is 
with regard to the advances on loan, and without interest, from the railway 
company, which were sanctioned by the Government of India to a considerable 
extent, but not always to the extent recommended by the officers of the 
railway company. 

3360. Taking" into consideration the fact that the Government sanction is 
required in all these contracts, do you not think that the Government are partly 
responsible for the failure of any contract to which they may have given their 
sanction, with the previous suspicion even upon their minds that the contractor was 
not able to execute it ?—It is for the Government of India to answer that question ; 
it is recorded in the book before me, that I had expressed an opinion that these 
men had not capital, and that the absence of capital would be in their way in the 
completion of their contracts. 

3361. There w as a certain amount of hazard which the Government undertook 
with their own knowledge ?—Yes, to a certain extent; but the hazard was not 
that money would be lost; it was only with respect to the contractors being unable 
to fulfil their contracts. 

0.61. 


G G 2 


3362. I suppose: 



236 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Jol. W. E. Baker. 


14 June 1858. 


3362. I suppose, if you had not employed these men, there are no others?— 
There is no choice whatever. 

3363. On what ground did you prefer a brick to an iron superstructure for the 

bridge over the Soane?—Because an arched bridge for two tracks would costa 
© © 

considerably smaller sum than an iron bridge for one ; that was one reason ; and the 
Court of Directors had strongly enjoined us not to indent on England for anything 
we could find a substitute for in India, and on that account I preferred brick to 
iron, and also because the Railway Board here had strongly represented the 
difficulty they had in obtaining freight even for the quantity of iron required for 
the permanent way materials of the railway. 

3364. When did the Court of Directors press upon you the necessity of only 
indenting upon England in case of absolute necessity?—They did so in two or 
three instances, of which 1 cannot recollect the precise date. 

3365. There has been, you say, a sort of general rule laid down ?—A sort of 
general rule. The story of the Soane Bridge is not quite correctly stated in the 
evidence ; the chief engineer in India, Mr. Turnbull, proposed to the Government 
two schemes for the bridge over the Soane, one of brick and the other of iron, and 
gave the above-mentioned reasons for his own preference of the arched bridge of 
brick, and it was entirely coincided in hy the Government of India, and reported 
home ; soon after that Mr. Turnbull came home, and conferred with the company’s 
consulting engineer in this country, and they then, in communication with each 
other, preferred an iron bridge; and after some correspondence I suppose with 
the East India Company, we were told in India that an iron bridge was to be 
substituted for the arched bridge that we had proposed in India. The Govern¬ 
ment of India did not attempt to disturb that decision, but only remonstrated 
against it, reiterating their own opinion that an arched bridge was the best. 

336b. The railway company represented, I believe, that if they were to be com¬ 
pelled to construct this bridge upon brick arches, it would take ten years to get the 
bricks and materials necessary?—We had no discussion of that sort in India. 
After Mr. Turnbull returned to India, and after he had seen the facility of getting 
in the bridge foundations, he himself proposed to me to re-open the question ; and 
it appears from that, that his own opinion was notin favour so decidedly of the iron 
bridge as might be supposed from the evidence given before this Committee. 

3367. Have you yourself, in your own mind, any objection to an iron structure 
of this kind that you would wish to mention ?—I have not the least objection to 
such a structure in itself; in some of the localities I have strongly recommended 
■an iron bridge, as will be seen from the correspondence in tills book; but in this 
case I thought, and still think, that a brick bridge would he cheapest and best. 

3368. Do you not suppose that the difficulty of supplying bricks for such a 
-structure would he almost insuperable? — 1 do not think so, because, in the case of 
the Ganges Canal, wi.hiu the small space of four or five miles, more bricks were 
required and used than would have been required for the Soane Bridge ; they were 
obtained by proper arrangement. 

3369. In the construction of the Ganges Canal you have stated that you had 
less difficulty in obtaining bricks. Is that general throughout the Presidenc\ 7 ; is 
there a great want of clay, or is it difficult to obtain the labour for making the 
bricks?—It was not owing to either of these causes, but it was owing to the 
scarcity of fuel in the province, and to the liability to failure from rain, and other 
causes of that sort. In this report, from which l have already quoted, I did point 
out that in all such operations the chief difficulty was in the preparation of a suffi¬ 
cient number of bricks. I could point out passages, in this report of mine on the 
extension of the railway to the North-Wes:ern Provinces, in which I have pointed)v 
called attention to that. 

3370. I understand you to admit the difficulty of obtaining large supplies of 
bricks in Bengal ?—Fully ; I have appreciated that difficulty ; I pointed it out 
very early to Mr. Turnbull; he has always coincided with me in the belief that 
the tying point in the construction of any large works was the preparation of 
bricks. The paragraph to which l wish to call attention is at page 12 of this 
report: “ The time required for the construction of the large works will regulate 
that for the completion of the whole undertaking ; and half of this time will be 
devoted to the collection of materials. I would propose, therefore, that the line 
be permanently set out throughout its whole length ; that the gradients be defi¬ 
nitely fixed and the land taken ; that the designs for all the principal works 
be prepared ; that where timber or brickwork is to be employed in the con¬ 
struction. 



237 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

stiuction, timely arrangements be made for the provision of the requisite Col. IV. E. Baker. 
material.” _ 

337 1 - Are you aware that the railway company blame the Government engi- 14 June 1858. 
neer for recommending a project which his experience would have taught him 

was impracticable, on account of the number of bricks required ?_I infer from 

Mr. Noad’s answer the other day that such is the case ; but I do not admit the 
justice of the imputation, because I pointed out the difficulty of obtaining bricks. 

I do not believe it insuperable; and I can point out instances where the difficulty 
has been overcome; and I believe it might have been overcome in this case, 
because, on the Soane, wood fuel is obtainable at as easy a distance as it was in 
the neighbourhood of the Ganges Canal; and because, also, they can get any 
quantity of coal by the Ganges. 

3372* On what ground did the Government hesitate to sanction a certain scale 
of engineering staff, proposed by Mr. Turnbull ?—The scale proposed was in 
excess considerably of that on the Madras line, and on the Bombay and Baroda 
Railway, both of which were being constructed by the railway company’s engineers, 
and that caused some hesitation on my part, to begin with. I talked* it over with 
Mr. 1 urnbull very carefully, and agreed that his scale would possibly be required for 
lengths of line on which there were heavy works ; but I pointed'out to him that 
whereas there were long lengths of line, on which the works were light, I thought 
some deduction ought 10 be made on account, and in proportion to the extent, of 
the light works. When the indent came in, it was without any modification, 
and in sending it up to the Government I represented my own views, and they 
ordered me to return it to Mr. 1 urnbull, with these views expressed, requesting 
him to send in a slightly modified scale, which I expected he would do ; but he 
had not done so before I left India; and I infer, from what he has said, that he 
has declined to do so altogether. It appears that he did not send in the modified 
scale, and gave as a reason for not doing so, that the Government .had not specified 
the exact extent of modification they required. 

3373 - You referred to the Bombay and Baroda line; are the questions as to 
the increase of staff referred to the Supreme Government?—They are not 
referred ; but the reports, as I explained before, all come up, and as a matter of 
interest I look at them all and study them, in order to get hints, and to compare 
the progress of the work on the different railways. 1 consider that part of my 
duty. 

3374. In the event of a difference of opinion existing between the consulting 
engineer of one of the local Governments, and the acting engineer of a line under 
construction in anv other Presidency, would you he called upon to act as arbi¬ 
trator?— No such case has occurred, nor do 1 think it would; it would be 
referred home rather than to the Government of India. 

3375. It is not the practice to resort to the Supreme Government as an appeal 
in cases of difficulty or dispute?—The only case I can recollect in which it was 
used for an appeal was from Madras, about the traffic rates; as to engineering 
questions, I do not recollect a single case. 

3376. On what ground do you suppose that Government hesitated to sanction 
the construction of bungalows, as stated by Mr. Noad, in answer to Question 644? 

—It happened since my departure from India, and I can only suppose that the 
requisition was sent up without proper information regarding the bungalows, 
because no hesitation has ever been felt by the Government of India; on the 
East India Railway, expenditure for this object has been sanctioned on a scale 
much larger than on any other line, and I have always advocated the providing 
good accommodation for the engineers, to keep them in good health, as they were 
much exposed ; it was to the interest of the company as well as their own that 
their health should he preserved, and very large sums have been sanctioned for 
engineers’ bungalows ; I do not remember any instance of a refusal, and I suppose 
that in this case it must have been for want of information. 

3377. Can you explain why six pumping engines, which were required for Mr. 

Sibley’s works, were not supplied for 21 months after they were asked for?—It 
was not in consequence of anything occurring in India ; and I think it is unfair to 
mte that as an instance of the inconvenience caused by the exercise of Government 
supervision, because I do not, so far as I know, think that it had anything to do 
with it; I was very anxious that the engines should come out. 

3378. Can you explain the cause of the delays that occurred in sanctioning an 

0.61. g g 3 indent 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


238 

Col.. W.E. Baker, indent for the line referred to in answer to Question No. 1 1 11 r—I do not recollect 

-the circumstance at all, but it happened, according to Mr. Sibley’s account, in sec- 

14 June 1858. tion B, a part of the line that was never under his care at all; I suppose he heard 
the story second hand, and was, perhaps, not correctly informed about it; it is a 
thing unlikely to happen, because when the railway company is constructing a line 
we do not interfere with the purchase of materials at all. 

3379. Mr. Crawford .J If the delay occurred in this country in consequence of 
the Court of Directors taking a long time to decide upon the indent submitted to 
them, it may be mentioned as a fair cause of delay arising out ol the exercise of 
Government supervision?—Yes, it might. 

3380. Mr. T. G. Baring.'] Do you know whether the delay did or did not occur 
from the management of the Railway Board itself?—No, I do not know. 

3381. Chairman.] Do you confirm Mr. Sibley’s answer to Question No. 1128, 
that almost all the works hitherto constructed in India have been executed by com¬ 
pulsory labour, or in the modified statement contained in answer to Question 
No. 1221, that the works hitherto executed in Bengal had been all, more or less, per¬ 
formed by compulsory labour?—My own personal experience, and the information 
which I have gained in the secretariat of the Department of Public W orks, enable 
me emphatically and absolutely to contradict that statement. An Act has been 
passed lately in India enabling the Government to impress labour for particular 
works for the troops ; and that shows, I think satislactorily, that had we been in 
the habit of pressing labour before, such an Act would not be necessary. 

3382. What were the relative rates of pay on Government works and on the 
railway ?—The price of labour generally increased very much after the commence¬ 
ment of railway works over the country, owing to the increased demand for it; 
and as a rule, they paid higher rates on the railway works than on the Govern¬ 
ment works; but the price of labour has increased very much on botli descrip¬ 
tions of works. 

3383. Then the inference we may draw from that is, that the condition of the 
native is most materially improved by the extension of these great works in India? 
—Of that particular class which takes employment on the railway, no doubt 
it is so. 

3384. Is it the fact that only a particular class of men take employment 
upon the railway?—All kinds of works in India pertain to particular classes; 
it is not customary in India for a man to transfer his labour from one trade to 
another; caste and custom interfere. 

3385. What class of labourers are principally engaged in those descriptions of 
labour?—The low caste natives are employed on the earthworks; the artisans, 
carpenters, masons, and blacksmiths are of a more respectable caste ; but it is 
chiefly the low caste natives who work at the spade. 

3386. Then the question of caste extends itself to trades generally in India ?— 
To a minute degree, and those which may be considered the mere manual classes 
of labour are performed by the lowest caste. 

3387. Can you explain the cause of the hesitation to sanction the purchase of 
timber, as stated by Mr. Noad in answer to Questions 764 and 765?—It appears 
from the evidence, that the purposes for which the timber was required were 
not stated in the application for leave to purchase it; if any control is to be exer¬ 
cised, the Government should know for what object the timber is required. In 
the time of Sir Macdonald Stephenson he would probably have come to me with 
the indent, and explained to me the circumstances, which would have led to its 
being authorised at once. 

3388. Mr. C. Bruce.] You were asked about the relative advantages of exe¬ 
cuting works by contract or by departmental work; have you considered whether, if 
Government had undertaken these works, they would have conducted them more 
efficiently and more economically?—They could not have conducted them more 
efficiently, I believe; but I suspect that they would have conducted them more 
economically. 

3389. l)o you think that the engineers in the service of the Government are 
competent to undertake these great works with such assistance as they might have 
commanded from England ?—1 believe they were competent, with such assistance 
as they might have commanded from England, but the staff in India was not 
sufficient for the purpose. 

3390. A great many questions have been asked with regard to the general 
action of Government superintendence; do you consider that that was necessary 

for 



239 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

for the satisfactory conduct of the works?—The control of the Government over Co). W. E. Baktr. 

expenditure I consider to have been necessary under the conditions of the con-- 

tract between the railway companies and the Government, because they received 14 June *858. 
interest on all they spent, and by giving six months' notice, they could hand over 
their works to the Government, and demand repayment of all that they had spent 
upon them. 

3391. The absence of such control you think might have led to extravagance 
and want of economy in the construction of the works ?—It might or might not; 
but, at all events, it was the duty of the Government to see that extravagance 
did not occur ; and it was necessary also that they should know for what purpose 
the money was spent. 

3392. In the case of your own superintendence, did you observe any disposi¬ 
tion in the railway officers to be careless of the expense at which the works were 
constructed?—In regard to establishments I often had to dispute items with the 
engineers, and sometimes with regard to the designs ; they thought stronger 
w ? oiks or more precautions necessary than I thought were required ; hut it was 
chiefly in regard to establishments, and expenses of that kind, that there was an 
iinclination to spend more than I thought was right. 

3393. Mr. Craiuforcl.~\ You stated your dissent from an answer given to Ques¬ 
tion 794, which was to the effect that no increase, however trivial, could take 
place in the staff without the matter going through the whole of the departments 
in India and the whole of the departments in England ?—Yes. 

3394. That has reference only to officers selected in India for service in India? 

—The remark made in evidence is true only as to the officers appointed in England 
by the Board, and sent from England. 

3395. Any officer required for the service of the railway company, and who 
must be sent out from England upon application, could not be sent out until the 
application had gone through all these preliminary stages?—No. 

3396. With reference to the relations between the Supreme Government and 
the subordinate Government, has a general control been exercised by the sub¬ 
ordinate Government in reference to the principles upon which railways were to 
be constructed ?—It was not pressed, I believe. 

3397. The Supreme Government passed its decision in reference to the direc¬ 
tion of the line?—Yes; all imperial questions were decided by the Government 
of India. 

3398-9. But the Government never interfered in the execution of the details of 
the line in any of the subordinate Presidencies?—I do not recollect any instance 
of their having done so. 

3400. It has been stated in the evidence that the contract system has been 
very successful in the case of the Great Indian Peninsula Railway, and it was 
also suggested that the contracts had been entered into by men who had gone 
out from this country to embark in that course of enterprise; do you think there 
is any difference between the circumstances of the Bombay Presidency and the 
Bengal Presidency to account for that success in the one case and the want of 
success in the other ? —The only difference I can think of is the facility of getting 
building materials at Bombay, which does not exist in Bengal. The point on 
which the contractors have broken down is the preparation of bricks, which is 
not necessary in Bombay. 

3401. It is the fact, is it not, that a considerable portion ot the Last India 
Railway passes over alluvial soil, while the Great Indian Peninsula Railway 
passes over a rocky and mountainous country ?—So far as the East India Railway 
is concerned it is so, and i believe it is so with reference to the Bombay 

Railway. . . 

3402. In regard to the manufacture of bricks, I presume 1 am right in sup¬ 
posing that you require three ingredients, so to speak, of considerable importance; 
one is an abundance of the material out of which brick is to be made ; secondly, 
an amount of practical skill in the preparation ot the bricks ; and, thirdly, the 
necessary amount of fuel for burning the bricks ?—Yes, you require those three, 
but the first and the third are the most important; skill in making bricks is soon 
acquired even by common labourers. 

3403. A brick that you would put into a railway structure, intended to last for 
a great many years, must be a brick of a superior character ?—It must be well 
burnt; I do not care much about its shape, except foi aich woik. 

3404. You stated that any quantity of coal might have been sent up the Ganges 

0.61. g g 4 for 



240 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Col. IV. E. Baker, for the burning of bricks necessary for the Soane Bridge. Was not one of the great 

-difficulties of the railway company that of sending permanent way materials up 

H June 1858. the river ?—It has been, but I do not think it follows from that, that they could not 
have sent the coal; besides which, they can get coal from the Palamow mules, near 
the trunk road. 

3405. With regard to sending coal up the Ganges, was not great difficulty felt 
in sending it up the country ?—The Bengal Coal Company would have taken a 
contract to deliver any quantity up the Soane. 

3406. Do you think the Bengal Company would have the means of forwarding 
it up the river if the railway company found it impossible to secure the means of 
sending the permanent way materials up the river?—I think they would. 

3407. Have you experienced any delay from the want of a supply of perma¬ 
nent way materials from this country ?—The only part that I can think of is 
between Cawnpore and Agra, where, l believe, the works are ready to receive 
the permanent way materials as soon as they arrive. 

3408. The difficulty of procuring bricks having been so evident to your mind, 
how do you account for the sanctioning the contract which contemplated the con¬ 
struction of 1,000 miles of railway in two years?—I have explained that I did 
not expect, and had no reason to expect, that they would be constructed in two 
years, but I did not see any objection to having that term named in the contract, 
as it gave us power to stimulate the contractors to greater exertions. 

3409. Supposing the railway contractors had been able to keep to the term of 
their contracts, and the railway company had not been able to send out the 
whole of their permanent way materials from this country within the two years, 
would not that have been a very great disadvantage to the railway company? 
—It would have been, but we did not contemplate the possibility of it. 

3410. Then the contracts were entered into without reference to the supply 
of permanent way materials ?—It did not enter into the contracts. 

3411. Would not your having sanctioned such contracts, without explanation, 
rather have the effect of leading the public to suppose that the construction of 
a line within two years was possible ?—I do not know that it would ; I had not 
taken that into consideration, hut perhaps it might have had that effect. 

3412. If the expenditure now is so strongly controlled by the Government, 
what induces you to think that Government officers could have constructed the 
works more economically?—The establishments would have been much less; we 
have now complicated establishments ; but the chief reason I give for it is, that I 
know what the Government works cost; the great Ganges Canal, which is as 
large a work as a railway, mile for mile has cost much less than the railway 
works have cost, even if they were executed at the contract rates. 

3413. Has it not taken, comparatively speaking, a longer time to complete 
than you expected the railway would take to complete ?—I think that, from the 
time the Government sanction to go on with the Ganges Canal works was un¬ 
reservedly given, it has not taken longer time; but there was a long time during 
which the Government hesitated whether they would carry out the Ganges Canal 
or not, and we were waiting for two or three years without knowing what their 
determination would be. 

3414. Is it fair to draw a comparison between the construction of the Ganges 
Canal and the construction of a railway ?—Yes, I think it is a fair comparison ; 
because, in each case, you have large earthworks, large brickwork, large bridges,- 
and heavy foundations. 

3415. Do you think that the comparison is to the disadvantage of the railway 
company ?—As far as cost is concerned, certainly. 

341b. And as regards time?—As regards time, without book I should not like 
to give an answer ; hut that is my impression, 

3417. Was compulsory labour resorted to in the case of the construction of 
the Ganges Canal ?—Not that I know of; it was not during the three years that 
I had direction of the work. 

3418. Are the wages now paid upon the works of the railway company higher 
than those which were paid in the case of the Ganges Canal ?—I think they are, 
on the whole, although we pay very high on the Ganges Canal, because we had 
to import labour from Outle ; we had 10,000 labourers constantly employed on 
the northern division of the Ganges Canal receiving pay by the month, and those 
were all from Oude. 


3419. That 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 241 

3419- That is a source of supply of labour, which is now, of course, cut off?— 
1 am not sure of that. 

3420. Do you suppose that the people of Oude will come down to the railway 

works to work upon them?—They never did come down to Bengal freely; they 
do not like the Bengal climate or the food ; the tribes employed on the Bengal 
works were the Santhals the Dhargurs, and the hill tribes. Before I left India, the 
Lieutenant-governor of Bengal was trying to enlist large gangs from the Ramghur 
district for the railway company, in the same way as we had large gangs from 
Oude for the Ganges canal. & & & 

3421. I believe the population of Oude is a wheat-consuming population ?— 
Yes ; they live upon wheat, bailey, and other grains. 

3422. Whereas the population of the other provinces live upon rice ?— 
Entirely. 

3423. Chairman .] Is the Oude labourer, generally speaking, a more efficient 
workman ?—I think they are stronger men than the Dhargurs and Santhals 
generally. 

3424. Making a comparison between the work done by the Oude labourer and 
the Bengalee, do you give a preference to the Oude labourer?—I think he is a 
stronger man, and perhaps even more intelligent. 

34 2 5 - Mr. Crawford.] The object for which this Committee has been appointed, 
is to inquire into the causes that have led to the delay that has occurred in the 
construction of railways in India; are the Committee right in supposing that the 
political circumstances of India during the last two or three years, meaning thereby 
the Santhal insurrection, and subsequently to that, the great mutiny, may be 
looked upon as two of the chief causes of delay in the construction of railways? 
—No doubt they are two principal causes. 

3426. To what circumstance do you next ascribe the delay ?—-To the failure of 
contracts. 

3427. And in your opinion, the failure of the contractors is partly attribut¬ 
able to circumstances arising out of the Santhal insurrection ?—Partly, but only 
partly. 

3425. Did not one of the contractors employed upon the line between Burdwan 
and Bajamahal sustain great losses from floods carrying away the materials which 
he had prepared? — I believe so; that also occurred between Rajamahal and 
Patna. 

3429. Do you remember the number of bricks which it was estimated would 
be required for the construction of the Soane bridge?—No; I compared it with 
the Solani aqueduct, and found it considerably less. 

3430. What is the length of the Solani aqueduct?—It is about 2 % miles 
long. 

3431. What is the length of the Soane bridge?—About four-fifths of a mile. 
There is one thing I should say, that on the Ganges line the work has increased 
very much since the contracts were taken. 

3432. From what cause? — In consequence of the defective information 
respecting the rise and extent of the floods from those rivers that flow into the 
Gauges from Rajamahal and Patna, which are liable to great inundations at 
intervals of about 30 years. We had not correct information as to those large 
inundations, because they had not happened within the recollection of the then 
existing generation. 

3433. The high flood has taken place since the works were entered upon?— 
Yes. We obtained from the inhabitants of the country the flood-marks at diffe¬ 
rent points, compared them together, and found that they tallied. We saw the 
villages themselves, and the substantial houses of the inhabitants on the high 
grounds bordering the rivers, and they also agreed with the flood-marks. The 
railway houses and bungalows were also built in reference to these flood-marks ; 
hut one of the extraordinary inundations occurred, and destroyed the villages, 
destroyed the bungalows, and upset all our calculations. 

3434. Chairman.'] Is the increased violence of the monsoon also in every 
30 years observabie"all over India ?—I do not think it is. I do not think that, in 
other parts in India, certainly not in all parts of India, high floods occurred 
simultaneously with those that upset our calculations on the railway. 

° 435 - Mr. Crawford.] Taking all these matters into account, 1 suppose I may 
sav that the line of railway now being constructed by the East India Railway 

061. Hh Company, 


Col. W. E. Baker , 


14 June 1858. 



Col. W. E. Baker. 


14 June 1858. 


242 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Company, presents engineering difficulties of no ordinary character to surmount? 
—They are of an extraordinary character. 

3436. Mr. A. H. Baring.'] Are there any large works like them in England? 
—Certainly not of the same character. 

3437. Chairman.] Taking all those matters into consideration, how do 
you account for the fact, that several of the lines in India are being constructed 
at a much less cost than they could be in England ?—From the cheapness of 
labour, and because we have not heavy law and Parliamentary expenses, rates, 
and other things of that sort. 

3438. Is the Supreme Government satisfied on the whole with the progress 
that is being made throughout India in railway construction?—1 do not think it 
is satisfied; perhaps it has not been able to lay its hand upon the exact point of 
failure, but there is no doubt about their having a general impression that the 
works might have been executed faster. 

3439. Mr. Crawford.] Is not. the Supreme Government a body rather difficult 
to satisfy ?—Seeing the importance of having railways, particularly at the present 
time; they are more alive than ever to the inconvenience of delay in their con¬ 
struction. 

3440. Mr. A. H. Baring .] Are you sure that as regards the indents, no delay 
has occurred in your office, and that therefore the delay must have occurred in this 
country ?—I do not exactly say that, because everything has to be referred to my 
office, and if no reference were required the business would of course be disposed 
of sooner. 

3441. Under existing regulations, you forward them as quickly as you can? 
—Yes. 

3442. Chairman.] You have stated that the Indian Government is fully 
alive now to the importance of railway construction in India. Are you prepared 
to say, keeping that in view, that the Indian Government are prepared to do 
everything in their power, to exert all their influence to forward these works to 
their utmost extent ?—I am prepared to say that, because even before this 
occurred, I believe the Government were prepared to use all their influence to 
expedite the works that had been authorised. 

3443. And to remove, as far as in them lies, every cause of obstruction or delay 
that could be shown to exist?—Yes. 

3444. Mr. Crawford .] Has not the Supreme Government recently been 
availing itself of the services of civil engineers from this country for the purpose 
of its own works?—Yes; I think 10 civil engineers have been sent out to each 
Presidency. 

3445. Were they placed under your control?—Y^es; they belong to the 
Department of Public Works, of which department I was secretary, and virtually 
the head. 

3446. What was the opinion you formed of the proficiency of those gentlemen 
who were sent out?—Almost all turned out well. 

3447. Perhaps it is hardly a proper question to put to you, as you are a mili¬ 
tary engineer. Do you not think that a civil engineering department of the 
Government would answer the purpose of control over railway construction better 
than a military department ?—It seems to me that there are very great advantages 
in having the operations of the railway company viewed from a different point of 
sight from that which a regularly-trained civil engineer would see them from. 
The works are designed by civil engineers; and if they are reviewed also by a 
civil engineer, you would have the same train of thought brought to bear upon 
them ; and in that respect I think there is some ad\antage in an engineer brought 
up in a totally different school having to pass an opinion upon them; and besides 
that, the civil engineer must be one trained in England, and the military 
engineer having been trained in India, has local knowledge and experience, 
which he can bring to bear with advantage on railway works. 

3448. You think that at the present moment there is no civil engineer pos¬ 
sessed of a sufficient amount of Indian local experience to enable him to supervise 
sufficiently and properly the construction of railways in India?—I do not know 
any such person, certainly. 

3449 - Chairman.] Can you not understand a civil engineer making it a fair 
cause of complaint that he should be controlled and clogged by the advice of a 

man not so intimately acquainted as himself with the works he has in hand ?_ 

He 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


243 


H 


e has taken Ins employment under the company with the understanding that they 
are to act under the control of the Government, in consideration of certain advan¬ 
tages they gained ; I think he has no fair cause of complaint, that he has to carry 
out the conditions of his agreement. J 

3450. Are you aware that that cause of complaint has been repeatedly alleaed ? 

1 have no doubt he would prefer being left entirely at his own discretion. I 

admit 1 should. 

3451. Mr. A. H. Baring.'] I suppose a military engineer would have much 
more power of supervision, direction, and authority among the natives of the 
country than Mr. Rendel or any similar gentleman ?—I do not think we exercise 
any power over the people of the country in carrying out the works. 

3452. Do you not visit the works ?—We do, in order to inform ourselves 
regarding them. 

3453 - Do you not think that you could have found military officers capable of 
constructing a railway without any help from civil engineers?—If they had had 
previous training in England. 

3454 - Not without that?—I should say not; the peculiarities of railway engineer¬ 
ing are not very many, but still they must be learnt somewhere ; the prfncipal 
works, such as bridges, viaducts, and embankments, we should be able to con¬ 
struct as well as a civil engineer, but we should have to come to England for 
experience in building stations, engine-sheds, and things of that sort. 

3455 - Mr. Crawford .] As consulting engineer to the Government, have you 
reason to be satisfied, generally speaking, with the capability of the engineers who 
have been sent out by the railway company?—As a general rule, I°do not say 
there are not exceptions; I am very well satisfied indeed. 

3456. You consider that, as a body, they were able, intelligent, and honourable 
men t —Certainly. 

3457 - Chairman .] Do you think that anything like a feeling of jealousy has 
existed, or does now exist, in the minds of the Supreme Government in regard to 
the construction, by private companies, of these great public works?—I do not 
think so; it was strongly recommended by Lord Dalhousie in his minute ; he 
argued the question fully on both sides, and deliberately preferred their beim* 
constructed by railway companies. 

3458. You differ with the views expressed by Colonel Pears on that subject? 
— fie speaks of the Madras Government; I speak of the Government of India. 

3459. Mr. A H. Baring. You consider that the Government might have 
constructed the works with as much efficiency and at less expense:—-I do. 

3460. Mr. T. G. Baring.\ I believe the Government of Madras differed from 
the Supreme Government with respect to the propriety of constructing railways 
by the Government or by private companies? —It seems so by the evidence; they 
did not, I believe, make any representation to the Government of India. 

3461. Do I understand you to say that your own private opinion is, that the 
railways would have been more efficiently and economically constructed by the 
Government?—I did not say more efficiently, but more economically; at the 
same time I do not enter into all the arguments that might be adduced in favour 
of private companies. I agree with Colonel Pears entirely in thinking that the 
present arrangement is not enlisting private enterprise at all; the shareholders 
run no risk, because it is borne by the Government. 

3462. Supposing the profits do not cover the expenses?—Whenever that 
occurs, they may throw the whole upon the Government, and require to be paid 
the w hole of the capital expended. 

34G3. You consider it nearly the same as a loan ?—As it affects the Government 
it is the same as a loan, except that they have a more expensive machinery to 
construct the railway. 


Col. IV. E. Baker. 


14 June 1858. 


0.6l. 


H U 2 





Col. W. E. Baker. 
17 June 1858. 


244 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Jovis, 17 ° die Junii i 1858 . 


MEMBERS PRESENT. 


Mr. H. G. Liddell. 

Mr. Crawford. 

Mr. T. G. Baring. 

Sir James Elphin stone. 


Mr. Cumming Bruce. 
Mr. Danby Seymour. 
Colonel Sykes. 


Honourable H. G. LIDDELL, in the Chair. 


Colonel William Erskine Baker , called in; and further Examined. 

3464. Chairman .] REFERENCE was made during the last sitting of the Com¬ 
mittee to certain difficulties which had arisen in the case of the Scinde Railway, 
in consequence of the Commissioner not having full power and authority to give 
his sanction to railway arrangements. I believe that the East Indian Railway is 
divided into two distinct portions, the Bengal and the North Western portion?— 
Yes. 

3465. What was the plan pursued by the Supreme Government in order to 
invest the Governor of the North Western Provinces with that authority and 
that power of sanctioning railway proceedings necessary in order to facilitate the 
progress of the works?—The Lieutenant-governor of the North West Provinces 
was empowered, on the recommendation of the deputy consulting engineer, to 
authorise all expenditure except on very large questions, and to act, in fact, in 
place of the Supreme Government in all minor affairs. 

3466. Was there any maximum of expenditure fixed beyond which he had not 
power of sanction ?—There was no maximum of expenditure fixed ; it was chiefly 
in regard to establishments that his power was considered limited ; it was in a 
great measure left to his own discretion what he would sanction, and what he 
would refer to the Supreme Government. 

3467. Was it found that, having invested him with larger discretionary power, 
the works progressed readily and satisfactorily ?—If he had not been invested 
with those powers, there would have been very much greater delay. 

3468. Turn to the answer given by Mr. Danvers to Question 125: he was 
asked, “ Is it the case that the railways are all constructed with single lines, but 
that the large works are all constructed so as to be ultimately adapted for double 
lines? ” and he replied, “ That is so ; all the permanent works, the bridge works 
and tunneling, are made for double lines; the simple earthworks are for single 
lines only.” Have you any observations to make upon that answer ?—The 
reply given is not quite correct. The whole works are constructed for a double 
track, except ballast, permanent way materials, and the superstructure of such 
bridges as are to be constructed of iron ; with those exceptions, everything is 
constructed for a double line. 

3469. I understand that those bridging works of which the superstructure is in 
iron, are not constructed for a double line?—They are not; the permanent way 
materials and ballast are provided for only a single track ; but every other arrange¬ 
ment is for a double track. 

3470. In bridging works, I presume that the piers are constructed so as to 
enable the company to lay a double line of rails eventually, if it is thought neces¬ 
sary ?—Yes, all but the iron superstructure. 

3471. That, ofcourse, is the immense expense attending it?—It is the heaviest 
expense, and can be added afterwards without affecting the works. 

3472. Will you explain the meaning of iron girders?—An iron girder is an 
iron beam ; generally speaking it is a constructed or trussed beam. 

3473. The girder, I suppose, extends from pier to pier in an angular form to 
support the bridge itself?—It is not necessarily in an angular form j if it is for a 
long span, you must have some kind of truss, 

3474. Something 






SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 245 

o 474 * Something in tiie nature oi a support :— Yes ; the term “ girder” is Col IV. E Baker 
nearly synonymous with “ beam.” ’_ * 

3475 - Now turn to Question 2421, which has reference to the great trunk road. 17 June 1858. 

A question was put with reference to the time occupied in constructing a simple 
road from Delhi to Calcutta, and as to whether 25 years had not been occupied 
in making that road under the supervision of the Government. Is that perfectly 
correct, or does it require any explanation ?—It is true probably that it is 25 
\ears since the construction ot the road was commenced ; but a small part only 
was sanctioned by the Government at first, and so far it was completed, and the 
road made available for traffic; improvements have been made in the road since, 
and are still going on. 

3476. Is the Committee to understand that the entire road from Delhi to Cal¬ 
cutta is open for traffic in every portion ?—Except two or three streams that are 
not yet bridged, it is complete in every portion, and throughout the whole length 
it is open for traffic. 

3477. Now turn to Question 2953, which has reference to a very important 
matter which this Committee decided not to go into at any length, viz., in refer¬ 
ence to traffic arrangements ; that question appears to require some explanation, 
and therefore, if you coniine yourself to an explanatory answer, the Committee 
will accept it?—The despatch from the Government of India referred to in that 
answer was not intended to interfere in any way with the profits of the railway 
company; but it was believed by the Government of India that it was the interest 
of the railway company, and of the country too, to keep the tariff as low as pos¬ 
sible consistently with profit. 

3478. The answer would seem to imply that the Government had wished to 
consult the native interest rather than that of the companies?—It was not in¬ 
tended to bear that construction. 

3479. Mr. T. G. jB aring.'] Is it not the duty of the Government, to a certain 
degree, to lock to the interests of the natives of India ?—It is the duty of the 
Government, I conceive, to look to the interests of all, but not to that of the 
people ot India more than that of the railway company; and I believe the 
Government did not intend to sacrifice the interest of the railway company to the 
interests of the people in general. 

3480. I believe some general instructions were sent out with respect to the 
rate of profit which might fairly be allowed to the railway companies ?—I do not 
remember any. 

3481. Chairman .] Is it not the fact that under the terms of the contract the 
Government reserve to themselves the right, when the rate of profits exceeds 10 
per cent., of remodelling the rates of fares and traffic charges ?—Yes; I think 
there is such a condition in the contract; but, at the same time, the Government 
reserve to themselves the right to control the rates of traffic under all circum- 
stances. 

3482. In the first instance?—In the first instance, and under all circum¬ 
stances. 

34 S3. But having laid down those rates according to the scale they thought 
just, I presume they do not claim the right of interfering with them afterwards, 
until the rate of profit shall exceed ihat which I named ?—I would not say that 
they would not claim that right if they thought that it was expedient, and if they 
believed it was for the interest of the railway company, as well as of the people, 
that it should be changed. 

3484. In all the arrangements Government might suggest, the interest of the 
railway company would, you think, be consulted equally with that of the passen¬ 
gers and the producers of the country ?—I think so. 

3485. Sir James Elphinstone .]—Is it not the fact, that if Government wish to 
develop the traffic of the country, they must adapt their fares to the circumstances 
of the people ?—Yes. 

3^486. Turn to Question 3096, which has reference to the two modes of con¬ 
struction, by contract or by departmental management. This question was put 
by the Chairman: “ Then the inference that the Committee may fairly draw from 
the statement you have made in regard to the construction of your line is this, 
that the extent to which the Government superintendence is carried is unques¬ 
tionably less when the work is constructed by contract than when the works are 

0.61. h h 3 constructed 



246 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Col. U\ E. Baker, conducted by the railway company themselvesand the witness replied, “ I 

_think there cannot be a doubt of it.” Do you wish to make any observation on 

17 June 1858. that answer ?— I merely wish to say that hitherto it has not been so in Bengal, 
because the contractors having got into difficulties, the references to the Govern¬ 
ment with regard to the works under contract ha\e been more numerous than in 
regard to those works under construction by the railway company’s engineers. 

3487. That increased correspondence and reference to the Government has 
arisen from accident and the circumstance of the contractors having failed ?— 
Probably it has. 

3488. What I meant to ask was, whether, supposing those contracts to have 
gone on smoothly, and the contractors to have fulfilled their engagements, Govern¬ 
ment interference would have been experienced less than if the works had been 
immediately under the control of the companies themselves ?—I am not quite 
sure that they would even in that case, but perhaps they might. 

3489. When you say you are not quite sure, that seems to imply some doubt on 
your mind whether there would have been; explain that doubt?—There are 
questions that arise about the interpretation of contracts and extra work and pay¬ 
ments for things not stipulated for exactly in the contracts, which call for the 
interference of the Government. 

3490. When the Government are aware that a double arrangement, as it were, 
is implied by the company having sublet their works to contractors, would they 
not be more delicate in offering any interference or objection in such a case as 
that, when the interests of two parties are involved, instead of one ?—They would 
not, of course, interfere with any of the conditions of the contract which they had 
themselves sanctioned. 

3491. Simply, I suppose, for this reason, that they could not, because, I pre¬ 
sume, that a contractor having undertaken a work upon certain conditions, would 
feel that the parties with whom he made those conditions were bound to adhere to 
them, and that the Government, whether they wished it or not, could not in justice 
make any objection when once those conditions were drawn up, and agreed to on 
either side?—That is the case, certainly; but it is true that innumerable ques¬ 
tions do arise with the contractor which have to be referred to the Government, 
and which are not sufficiently provided for under the contract. 

3492. Mr. T. G. Baringi ] Can you inform the Committee whether the corps 
of engineers in your Presidency is very much employed upon civil works ?—Yes, 
in time of peace almost exclusively employed on civil works. 

3493. Consequently, although you are military engineers, yet your experience 
is principally, in time of peace, upon civil works ?—Yes. 

3494. Are you acquainted with the amount of wages paid by the railway com¬ 
pany in Bengal to the labourers ?—I cannot say exactly, without reference to the 
accounts. 

3495. Do you believe the wages they have paid are fair wages?—Yes, 1 
believe they are fair wages. 

3496. Are they more or less than the ordinary rale of wages in the country ?— 
They are slightly higher, I think, than those paid by the Government, but not to 
any great extent. 

3497. Do you consider that the people in Bengal are under-fed in consequence 
of the low rate of wages r—Certainly not. 

3498. What reason have you for not agreeing with that assumption ?—Because 
a man can live according to the price of food, lor the amount which he earns on 
the Government works, and also support his family. 

3499. I suppose, then, the native of Bengal, if he had higher wages, would not 
spend it upon more food in that case?—I cannot say whether he would or not; 
possibly he might; the native officers in the army, for instance, always get very 
fat when they are promoted. It is almost an invariable rule, and therefore per¬ 
haps the labourers might live better if they had larger pay. 

3500. \ou say that the rate of wages paid by the railway company on these 
works in Bengal is sufficient to feed a man and his family?—Yes. 

3501. With respect to the Government supervision, do you consider that a 
simple audit of expenditure would be a sufficient supervision for the Government 
to experience over works ?—I do not, because that must occur after the expendi¬ 
ture has been incurred, and if there were any excess, it could only be dealt with 
after the harm was done. 

3502. The Government, then, could only remonstrate against an expenditure 

which 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


247 


which had been incurred ?—Yes; and therefore it is necessary that no expendi- 
ture should take place without previous sanction. 

3503. I believe it was the principle upon which Government superintendence 
was originally laid down?—Yes. 

3504. And which has been carried out ever since the first beginning of railway 
works in India ?—Yes. 

3505. A complaint has been made that too voluminous returns have been 
called tor from the railway company. I suppose you were the officer responsible 
tor the returns called for?—Yes, in Bengal. 

3506. Do you consider those returns were more than were necessary ?—No; I 
have already stated that we did not call tor any returns from the engineers, except 
accounts of expenditure and progress reports. 

3507. You consider those indispensably necessary ?--I consider those indis¬ 
pensably necessary. 

3508. Do you think that any delay has occurred in consequence of those returns 
being called for?—No, certainly not. 

35°y- Bo you consider that the change in the line from the short route to 
Mirzapore to the Ganges Valley line has been productive of any delay?—It is 
probable that the direct line would have been constructed in a shorter time than 
the longer line. 

3510. Do you consider that that delay has been, or will be, compensated by 
the greater value of the Ganges Valley line as compared with the short line ? — 
Yes. 

3511. Speaking generally, are you satisfied with the progress made by the East 
India Railway Company ?—So far as the engineers are concerned, I am satisfied ; 
but I am disappointed more or less with the general result. 

2512. Do you consider, speaking generally, that that disappointment which 
you feel as to the general result, has been caused by the difficulty of obtaining 
proper contractors, and carrying on the works through their agency ?—I have 
already explained the causes to which I attribute the delays that have occurred, 
the insurrections w hich have occurred twice, and the failure of the contractors. 

3513. You mentioned that on one part of the railway, that between Cawnpore 
and Agra, the permanent way has not arrived, and that that has caused some 
delay ?—1 slated that if the permanent way had been on the spot, the works were 
prepared to receive it. 

3514. Do you think that the railway company have taken every measure in 
their power to supply the permanent way in time to be ready when the earth¬ 
works were completed ?—So far as I can judge, they have ; their proceedings in 
England are beyond my official cognisance. 

3515. My question referred to their proceedings in India in forwarding the 
materials up the country ?—They have taken great pains, no doubt, in forwarding 
them, but I am not sure that they have employed exactly the best means, and we 
have had an inquiry on the subject in Calcutta ; some changes have been recom¬ 
mended, which are in course of adoption. 

3516. Chairman .] I should like to ask you what you consider the best means? 

_From the experience we have had, I should think that the best means would 

be for the company to have its own steam tugs, by which to take the materials up 
the country. 

3*'- ) i7 > Mr. Crawford .] Have not the Company recently taken measures to pro¬ 
vide means of their own for sending the permanent way up the country?—When 
I left Calcutta, it was under discussion. I do not think anything was settled 
before I left. 

3518. Were auv suggestions made to the railway company by your department 
for improving the mode of sending the permanent way materials up the country ?— 
There was a report by a committee, of which Captain Crommelin, deputy consult¬ 
ing engineer, was one member, and Mr. Roche was another; they recommended 
certain" measures, which the Government approved, and which were in course of 
being carried out. 

3510. Is it not the fact that the delay in sending the permanent way materials 
up the country has arisen, in a great degree, from circumstances connected with 
the mutiny, and the demands of the Government upon means available on the 
r j ver ?__it has been increased very much by those causes of late; but the system 
had broken down, I may say, before the mutiny occurred ; the committee I have 

referred to sat before the mutiny occurred. 

0 5, h h 4 3520. Chairman.] 


Col. W. E> Baker. 


17 June 1858. 



248 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Col. W. E. Baker. 


17 June 1858. 


3520. Chairman .J Is it not the fact that, four years ago, Mr. Turnbull recom¬ 
mended the construction of steamers for the purpose of the transport of heavy 
materials, and was not that proposition declined by the Government?—I do not 
remember any such proposition having come before the Government. 

3521. Mr. T. G. Baring.} Such proposition if it had been made, would, I 
presume, have come under your notice ?—Yes, but I speak without book ; all I 
c an say is, that I do not remember anything of the sort. 

3522. Since you have been consulting engineer, have any applications been 
made by the company for an increase to their staff of engineers which have not 
been complied with by Government?—In my former evidence I referred to one 
instance, and explained why the Government hesitated to allow the full scale 
that Mr. Turnbull had proposed. 

3523. Has your attention been directed to Colonel Kennedy’s idea, that rail¬ 
ways should be made upon the telescopic principle r—It has seemed to me that 
that would take a much longer time than to commence along the whole line and 
construct the line at once; but it would be done probably more economically. 

3524. Taking the present state of the works on the East Indian Railway, do 

you think that anything like the present progress would have been attained if 
the plan recommended by Colonel Kennedy had been followed ?—Certainly not. 

3525. Do you think that it would facilitate the arrangement of matters, upon 
which there may be a difference of opinion between the consulting engineer and 
the railway company’s engineers, if a Railway Board sat in Calcutta ?—It would 
depend upon the constitution of that Board. 

3526. I mean somebody appointed by the railway 7 company, which should have 
more power than the agent of the company ?—I do not see that there would be 
any advantage in that arrangement; I would rather have an agent with full 
powers to act. 

3527. Has the agent, upon all occasions, had full powers to act?—He has, I 
think, had sufficient powers from his employers. 

3528. Speaking generally of the East Indian Railway Company, do you think 
that the earthwork and bridges of the railway have been completed with equal 
rapidity to the power of supply of permanent w T ay and rolling stock?—No; I 
should think on the whole they have not; that the permanent way materials have 
been generally ahead of the constructive operations in India. 

3529. Chairman.] Have you in India at the present moment any college or col¬ 
leges for the education of civil engineers ?—Yes ; there are two in the Presidency 
of Bengal, one in the North Western Provinces, and one in Calcutta. 

3530. How long have they been established?—The one in the North Western 
Provinces has been going on more or less since 1 848 ; the one in Calcutta has 
been established within about fifteen months. 

3531. Is there any great disposition on the part of the natives to send their 
sons for education to those colleges ?—On the whole the colleges have been very 
well attended ; but those w ho are studying in the higher classes receive some sort of 
allowance from Government to maintain them while they are studying; without 
that, probably, they would not have been able to remain. 

3532. Allowing a fair margin for the establishment and progress of education, 
have you calculated what is the probable supply of educated men who may issue 
from these colleges in the course of four or five years?—lean hardly answer 
that question without referring to papers. 

3533 • What is the largest number of pupils in anyone college?—I cannot 
answer that. 

3534. Mr. T. G. Baring.] Did the college at Roorkee supply more than were 
occupied on the Ganges Canal Works?—Yes ; more than were necessary for the 
whole department of public works. 

3535 - Chairman.' ] You stated just now' that almost all the officers were employed 
exclusively upon civil engineering works ?—The officers of the corps of engineers. 

3536. Are w r e to understand from that that the corps of engineers is not em¬ 
ployed at all on military works?—There were no military works going on in India 
at the time I referred to. 

3537. Is it not the case that extensive works are at this moment being under¬ 
taken by the Government, and mainly for military purposes?—I should explain 
that the Public Works Department includes the accommodation of troops, and the 
construction of barracks, which I include under the above head of “ Civil Works.” 

353 8- Mr. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 249 

. 3538 . Mr. T. G. Baring .] Was not Colonel Baird Smith, who distinguished 
himselt at the seige of Delhi, one of your first civil-engineers in the Military 
Department P—Yes. 

3539 - Chairman.] Do we understand that the Government are not entered 

at the present moment upon any large works of fortification ?-—I am speakfno- 
merely of the time previous to the mutiny ; I do not know what they may be 
doing now. J J 

3540 - Sir James Elphinstone.] I shall be glad to have your opinion upon the 
direct line from Calcutta to Patna. I understand that the circumstances which 
induced the Government to adopt that route was the superiority of the gradients, 
and the expectation that, by a longer route, more traffic would be obtained. Is 
that the case ?—Those two considerations influenced the Government in selecting 
the Ganges’ Valley line. 

3541. I suppose the question of gradients to be a considerable influence upon 
the decision of the Government ?—They were one important element, no doubt, 
strongly insisted upon by Colonel Kennedy, on whose recommendation the con¬ 
clusion of the Government was come to. 

3542- Was his opinion in favour of flat gradients ?—Yes. 

3543* Has it not been found that in working heavy traffic over gradients of 
1 in 100, what you lose in going up hill you gain in going down ; so that, prac¬ 
tically, those gradients are easier worked than flat gradients ?—His argument 
referred to the limitation of the load of the trains. 

3544. Chairman.] Have you any diagrams which you desire to put in ?—I 
have some that I should like to hand in. 

3545 - Are they compiled from official returns?—Yes. 

Sir Macdonald Stephenson, called in ; and Examined. 

3546. Chairman.] YOU are a Director of the East India Railway Company; 
and, until lately, represented the company as their agent in India :—Yes. 

3347. Up to what time, and how long?—For 24 years; since 1833, when 
first engaged in carrying out steam communication with India. 

3548. That is the length of time that you have been engaged on railways, 
or similar works, connected with India ?—Yes. 

3549. State the dates at which Indian railways received official encourage¬ 
ment, separating the different periods?—In 1840, the steam communication with 
India was secured. The next step of railway intercommunication through 
India was privately discussed in 1841 ; but I was informed that the East India 
Company could not entertain what then appeared to be a wild project. In 1842, 

I endeavoured to induce the East India Company’s engineer officers to undertake 
these works, and afforded considerable facilities. In 1843, finding that, unless 
I gave personal attention to it, the measure would not be carried out, I proceeded 
to Calcutta, but until 1844 I could not impress the Government of India with the 
importance of the work. In 1844, I returned to England with the official assur¬ 
ance of the support of the Government of India, upon which the East India Com¬ 
pany entertained the proposals of the East Indian and the Great Indian Penin¬ 
sular Companies. Great objections and difficulties were raised, and in 1845 I 
went out to India with, a start' of engineers to survey the proposed line, and to 
report upon the supposed difficulties. I had previously satisfied the chairman cf 
the East India Company, Mr. J. Shepherd, that it was indispensable that the 
Government of India should have a practical and experienced engineer to advise 
them, to w hom all railway questions should be referred. Mr. Simms was therefore 
sent out by the same opportunity in 1845, and by this means great dispatch was 
secured, inasmuch as the survey was completed in one cold season, and I returned 
with the results, which were most satisfactory, in 1846. 

3550. Mr. T. G. Baring.] Do I understand you to say that in consequence of the 
course taken by the Home Government, every facility was given towards laying 
the foundation of establishing railways in India, up to that time when Mr. Simms 
was sent out ?—The co-operation of the Home Government was not officially 
applied for until 1844 ; it is only subsequent to that, that any delay has taken place. 

3551. You do not consider that there was any delay previous to that date ?— 
No, not here. 

3552. Chairman.] Continue your answer?—In 1847, arrangements were made 
for constructing a section in Bengal, and one in the Upper Provinces, and T 

0 5, II returned 


Col. W. E. Baker . 


17 June 1858. 


Sir M. Stephenson ,. 




250 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Sir M. Stephenson, returned again to India with a competent staff. In 1847-8, the European crisis 

- — occurred, the French Revolution followed, and put a stop to the company’s 

17 June 1858. operations. In 1848, the directors had reduced all the expenditure, and prepared 
to await more favourable times. In 184Q, contracts were made, under uh ch the 
railway company renewed active operations in 1850 (limiting; the work to 
one experimental section), which have since only been interrupted by local causes. 
In Feburary 1855, the first section out of Calcutta, of 12 if miles, was opened, 
while the works were under contract and in course of construction for about 
800 miles more, as far as Delhi. In 1858, another 125 miles, the section 
between Allahabad and Cawnpore, will he opened. The other sections will be 
completed in succession, and the whole may be opened by 1862. 

3553. Reference is made in that answer to contracts for works upon the East 
India line; will you state the grounds upon which the contract system was 
adopted in preference to the company executing the works themselves ?—It was 
assumed as the result of all past experience that, upon works of considerable 
extent, such as a railway of from 1,000 to 1,500 miles, in the completion of 
which time was an important element, the contract system was preferable to the 
company executing their own works. The former secured the advantages of a 
division of labour, of enlisting the co-operation of qualified men, whose inte¬ 
rests were identified with those of the company ; and under the contracts referred 
to, the railway company had the power of pushing on the works with the utmost 
rapidity possible, while they were secured against contingencies arising from 
difficulty in transport of materials. 

3554. Several of those contracts have been given up; how do you account for 
that?—The contractors were necessarily men of less experience than can be 
obtained in Europe; they were the best men the company could obtain. They had 
•all previous practical knowledge of public works, and local experience, and their 
antecedents justified the expectation of their being able to perform what they 
had undertaken. The previous contracts had been found to answer remarkably 
well, and the same contractors were again employed. Others were encouraged and 
employed to keep down the otherwise excessive rates to be apprehended when no 
competition is expected. The contracts were framed with scrupulous regard to the 
company’s interests, both in prices and time of execution, under the impression that 
with the fullest powers in their hands, the company would act in a just and liberal 
spirit, and as in European contracts, \t ould aid the contractors in every reasonable 
way ; and when difficulties arose, which could not have been foreseen, and were not 
attributable to any fault of contractors, that they would have been supported and 
enabled to complete their contracts. This course has not been adopted, and I am 
informed that the rigorously enforced observance of all the original conditions, 
without reference to altered circumstances, or to the spirit and intention of the 
contracts, has ruined contractors and retarded work. Full and sufficient secu¬ 
rities were taken for all advances of money to contractors, to prevent risk of loss. 
It would have been unwise to insist upon security for due performance, which the 
company would have had to pay dearly for, while they had the more complete 
power of enforcement in their own hands. The time for completion of contracts 
was fixed at two years advisedly. The company had the fullest powers, and the 
contractors would, under the contracts, have been compelled to import any amount 
of European supervision which the company deemed necessary to secure dispatch 
of work. The Board thought they could not send out materials fast enough, 
therefore the alternative provided for was resorted to of an extension of time beim* 
granted. 

3555. Then do I understand from that answer, that had a little more discretion 
been shown in relaxing the original conditions, it is possible that these men might 
have been enabled to go on?—I think there can he no doubt about it; the failure 
has occurred since my ieaving India, but from the representations made, there is 
no doubt, I think, that had greater consideration been shown to them, and the 
practice pursued in Europe adopted, they would have carried out their engage¬ 
ments. 

3556. Does your experience enable you to state that it is the practice on 
large works of this description to handle the contractors somewhat tenderly at 
certain times ? —Unquestionably. 

3557. And under certain circumstances ?—Under those described. 

355^- Was this, to repeat the phrase I have already used, of want of tenderness 

in 



251 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


in treating the contractors, owing in any way to the Government supervision r— 
It was the compulsory act of Government. 

thefwn^vJ und < ers , tand y°"*» sa r ‘h a ‘'he railway companies themselves, had 
tionablv 1 S ° t0 ^°’ W ° U d )ave s ^ own rat h er more consideration ?—Unques- 


3560. Mr. T. G. Baring.'] \ ou mean by that, I suppose, that the agent of the 
railway company recommended less severe measures?—He did. 

3561. Did he do it in writing?—Officially. 

3562. Chairman .] Will you furnish the Committee at a future period with any 
correspondence that has taken place between the agent of the company in India, 
the Government, and the Railway Board in England ?—I will. 

3563. Mr. T. G. Baring.] Upon this point you cannot speak from personal 
knowledge. You were not on the spot when it took place?—No. 

3364. Chairman.] These contracts were settled in India, I believe, without 
reference to England ?—They were. The experience of the past had shown con¬ 
clusively that a reference to England would have been tantamount to deferring 
the whole question for another year at the least; and as the local authorities, both 
of the Government and of the railway company, were of necessity the best judges 
on the subject, the contracts were made in India. The decision of the authorities 
in England on Mr. Jackson’s tender was conclusive of what would be the result 
of a reference home, and no alteration in any of the circumstances had occurred to 
permit the expectation of other or more enlarged views being entertained. 

3565. Would not contractors from England have been in all probability more 
successful?—They would; and in 1848,1 applied personally to all the great 
English contractors, and used every possible exertion to induce them to go out 
to India, but in vain. One contractor alone, Mr. Thomas Jackson, entertained 
the proposal, and tendered for the execution of a first section of 70 miles, on 
very advantageous terms. His tender was approved and recommended by the Rail¬ 
way Board and the East India Company, but was rejected by the India Board. No 
other contractors would tender or send out until some years after, when Mr. 
Brassey sent over an agent, who, after ascertaining the nature and extent of the 
Government supervision, declined to have anything to do with the work, notwith¬ 
standing every exertion made by the railway company to alter his decision. 

3566. What were the contractors’ objections?—The minute and universal 
extent of the supenision of Government, and the conviction that the Government 
regarded the whole question in an insufficiently comprehensive view ; that they 
thought of economising a few pounds here and there without regarding time and 
other considerations which are generally secured by the co-operation of great 
contracting houses, and that they would, therefore, never sanction tne amount 
which would alone justify such houses in embarking in these undertakings. 

3567. That is to say, I presume, that the Government had a certain jealousy 
or fear that the profits of these contractors would be too large; that probably 
weighed with the Government?—I should hesitate to ascribe a motive to the 
Government ; 1 state the fact. 

3568. That was a motive that might well weigh with the Government, who had 
guaranteed large rates of interest?—I presume so. 

356‘q. Mr. Crawford.] Was not that one of the motives that induced the 
Government to hesitate giving their sanction to Mr. Jackson going out?—It w r as 
understood to be so. 

3570. Mr. T. G. Baring.] The contiactors were probably of opinion that 
they would not make a good thing out of Indian contracts, in consequence of 
the determination of the Government to keep down the expense?—Government 
objected to the tender as being too high ; contractors would not go out, except 
w'ith the prospect of making large profits. The Government said the work ought 
to be done at more moderate rates. 


Sir M. Stephenson . 


17 June 1858. 


I I 2 


0.6l. 




Sir James Melvill, 
k. c. B. 


21 June 1858. 


252 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Luna , 21° die Junii , 1858 . 


MEMBERS PRESENT. 


Hon. H. G. Liddell. 
Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. T. G. Baring. 
Mr. C. Brnee. 

Mr. H. A. Bruce. 
Mr. Campbell. 


Mr. Cheetham. 
Mr. Crawford. 
Mr. Glyn. 

Mr. D. Seymour 
Col. Sykes. 


Hon. H. G. LIDDELL, in the Chair. 


Sir James Melvill , k.c.b., called in; and Examined. 

3571. Chairman.'] WILL you tell the Committee what office you hold in the 
Home Government of India; you were at first, I believe, secretary to the 
Government of India?—Until lately I held the office of secretary to the Court 
of Directors ; 1 latterly resigned, and I now only hold the office of ex-officio 
Director of the Railway Companies, the Court of Directors having requested 
that I would continue to do so. 

3572. When did you first undertake that office?—In 1849. 

3 . 573 - You act, I believe, as ex-officio director at all the Railway Boards at 
present sitting in London ?—I do. 

.3574* We have had it stated in evidence that your powers and authority have 
been considerably increased of late, but I should like to commence with the 
period of your first appointment as ex-officio director; will you describe the 
extent of your powers at first, and afterwards describe the enlargement of those 
powers?—At first I had no power, except that of exercising a veto; I had only 
to give information to the Court of Directors upon points upon which they 
might require it, and to act at the Railway Board as I best could, according to 
my judgment, to promote the success of the undertaking. 

3575. Subsequently, I believe, there have been two distinct extensions of your 
powers at two different periods ?—There has been an important one with respect 
to indents for railway materials. 

3576. When was that given?—About three months ago. 

3577. I believe it was in July of last year?—In March this year. 

3578. You have stated that you were at first merely present at the Board to 
give encouragement to the proceedings by your presence?—Yes. 

3579. When you first received the extended powers, to what extent did they 
go?—Authority was given to me to sanction all indents for railway materials 
which had received in India the sanction of the local government; these formerly 
used to be submitted to the authorities in this country, but that is not done now. 

I express my concurrence in the indent, and it is immediately complied with. 
That does not apply to indents for increase of establishment, but only to indents 
for stores. 

3580. Do those indents for additions to the staff go through the same process 
that the indents for stores and materials formerly used to go through ?—They 
do. 

3581. Describe the process through which every indent formerly had to pass 
before you received the extended authority enabling you to give full sanction ?— 
The indent first came from the railway authorities in India to the Railway Board 
in this country; the Railway Board then came to their decision upon it, and if 
they proposed to comply with it, they sent a resolution to that effect to the Court 
of Directors; the Court of Directors formed an opinion upon it, which was sub¬ 
mitted 






SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 253 

mitted for the concurrence of the Board of Control, and when that was given 
the decision M'as communicated to the Railway Board. 

3582. Through your medium t —Through a distinct communication from the 
Court of Directors to the Railway Board. 

3583- So that every individual indent had to pass through the two depart¬ 
ments, and was accompanied by a letter of sanction from both those departments 
upon being returned to the Railway Board ?—That was the case; the letter of 
sanction from the Board of Commissioners was addressed to the Court of 
Directors, and not to the Railway Board. 

3584. That was necessarily productive in every case of a considerable amount 
of delay and correspondence ?—It did occasion delav, and sometimes corre¬ 
spondence. 

3585* Have you any case in your mind in which unusual delay occurred in 
receiving the sanction of the Board of Commissioners to any indent submitted to 
them ?—I cannot immediately call to mind any very important case. There 
have been cases in which the Court of Directors have suggested that it was 
important to receive a decision as soon as possible, in reference to the state of the 
market, especially of the metal market; and others in which application has been 
made to obtain an earlier sanction than would otherwise be given lor an increase 
of establishment. 

3586. Describe precisely the extent to which your power of sanction of 
railway proceedings goes at the present moment; is it confined to indents 
entirely ?—When the indent has been complied with, and tenders have been 
received for the provision of materials, I am allowed, if 1 approve it, to authorise 
the acceptance of the tender, without further reference to the Court. 

3587* Was that extension of powers in your opinion a judicious step ?—I 
think it was. It was not attended with any risk, the practice being always to 
resort to competition, and to obtain the opinion of the consulting engineer, who is 
generally a man of high repute, as to the price being reasonable. I think, those 
two things being attended to, there was no risk in allowing the ex-officio director 
to give his sanction. 

3588. Is it your opinion that it would be desirable to invest you with any 
further powers than those yon already possess r—1 am not of that opinion ; I 
think that the official director has sufficient power, and so long as the office is con¬ 
stituted as it now is, there being only one person, I do not see how the supervision 
could be complete and satisfactory if the whole power were taken away from 
the authorities, and left with the official director. What is to be done when 
the official director is necessarily absent? It strikes me that supervision, 
to be perfect, must be continous and complete ; at the present moment all the 
proceedings, however minute, go to the Court of Directors, and nothing can 
properly escape observation. I do not see how that could be completely attained 
if the official director had all the power. I believe I have been as close in my 
attendance on these Boards as it would be possible for any other gentleman to be, 
but still there will be occasional illness, and absence from other causes. 

3589. Taking into consideration your long experience and assiduous attention 
to railway matters, might not that amount of confidence be fairly placed in you 
as to give you, after communication with the Court of Directors to ascertain their 
views, the full extent of power which it has been desired should be given to you ? 
—I have no doubt that the power might be given. 

3590. I put that question merely with a view of ascertaining whether it would 
not facilitate to the greatest possible extent the progress of railway proceedings, 
and with a view of obviating delay?—I might mention that in the Ceylon Rail¬ 
way Company, which is a company administered by the Colonial Department, an 
official director has been appointed by the Government, and they have found it 
necessary to authorise the director, in the case of his absence, to appoint a person 
to act for him. 

3591. Have you not, in the person of Mr. Danvers, a gentleman fully capable 
of undertaking your duties in case of absence or sickness?—Perfectly capable, 
but he has no authority to do it; our contracts with the railway company provide 
for the appointment of a single person only. 

3592. But I presume it was never intended, when these contracts were entered 

° 0.61. I l 3 into. 


Sir James Me kill , 
k. c. B. 


21 June 1858. 



254 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Sir James Melvill , 
k. c. B. 


21 June 1858. 


into, that in the event of your being by illness occasionally absent, you should not 
have the power of delegating 1 your authority ?—It was not provided for ; it was 
arranged that the Court of Directors and the Board of Control should exercise a 
power over everything, and therefore the official director had no power. 

3593. Will you describe to the Committee when instructions are sent out from 
the Railway Board to their agents in India, what is the process gone through pre¬ 
vious to forwarding those instructions?—The Railway Board prepares a draft of the 
instruction to its agent in India, and every such draft, without exception, is sub¬ 
mitted to the Court of Directors, who, after expressing an opinion upon it, sub¬ 
mit it to the Board of Control, and when both authorities are agreed the letter is 
returned to the Railway Board, with an intimation ot' the decision. 

3594. All those instructions must receive the sanction of the two departments? 
—Yes. 

3595. Have you found in practice much delay resulting from that?—There 
has been occasionally considerable delay, and we have been frequently urged 
by the Railway Boards to expedite the progress of the decision upon such 
letters. 

3596. One or two cases have been brought before our notice; I refer par¬ 
ticularly to very considerable delay said by Colonel Kennedy to have occurred 
in obtaining the sanction of your Government to that portion of the line from 
Surat to Bombay. I think you are acquainted with all the circumstances to 
which I refer?— Yes. 

3.597. The original portion of the line sanctioned was from Surat to Ahmedabad, 
but I think it has been stated that three years were lost in obtaining the sanction 
of the Government to the further extension of the line to Bombay-. Have you 
any explanation to olfer upon that?—When that line was first proposed, con¬ 
siderable doubts were entertained by persons acquainted with the country as to 
its practicability. It was a very difficult line to construct and I believe there was 
a difference of opinion among the local engineers as to how far it would be 
practicable, and still more, how far it would be desirable, to incur the large 
expense which must be incurred; subsequently there was a reference to the 
Government of India upon the subject, and a good deal of discussion arose in 
India between the Government of Bombay and the Government of India, and 
it is in that way that I account for the delay. 

3598. Have any cases within your recollection occurred of a scheme having 
been recommended by the engineers, and sanctioned by the local Government of 
India, which has met with opposition on the part of the Government at home ?—- 
There was a proposal that the Madras Company should carry a line to Bangalore, 
which was opposed in this country. 

3599. Upon what grounds ?—Upon the grounds, if I remember right, that it 
was equally desirable, in a political point of view, and more desirable in a com¬ 
mercial, that the line should be formed to go by Cuddapah to Bellary. In 
that case there was difference of opinion between the Court of Directors and 
the Board of Control. The Court of Directors took the view of the railway 
company. They thought Bangalore was an important military station, and that 
the line from Bangalore to Bellary must be ultimately made, and that therefore 
it was desirable to allow the company to go on with it without interfering with 
the line by Cuddapah to Bellary. 

3600. Was there not considerable difference of opinion between the Govern¬ 
ment of Madras and the Supreme Government with regard to that line ?—I am 
not sure upon that point; I think Lord Dalhousie advocated the direct line. 

3601. Has it often occurred that differences of opinion with regard to railway 
matters have existed between the Court of Directors and the Board of Control ? 
—I do not think there have been any very serious points of difference, though 
occasionally there has been discussion. 

3602. Is it your opinion that the mode adopted for railway construction in 
India, namely, by placing them in the hands of private companies, is preferable 
to the Government undertaking the works themselves?—That is my opinion ; it 
is a point which has been very much controverted and discussed, but I am of 
opinion that the Government, with all its proper duties, ought to delegate such a 
work to private companies. 

3603. The 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 255 

3603. 1 he Government undertaking to guarantee interest upon such large sums Sir James Mefoi/l, 
of money, must have a certain amount of supervision ; is it your opinion that that K * c - B - 
supervision has been^ exercised in a way the least prejudicial to the interests of 

the railway company ?—l think occasionally there has been too minute and per- 21 June l8 5 8 - 

haps a vexatious interference in India ; at the same time, the circumstances were 

new, railways were altogether a novelty in India, the work was new to our officers 

there, and there were many other difficulties which will occur to every one’s 

mind as inherent on the first introduction of the system in India. I think it is 

now beginning to work more satisfactorily. 

3604. Is it your opinion that the affairs of the railway company are best 
managed by means of Boards there, with powers delegated to them from the 
Boards in London, or do you think they should be managed through the medium 
of a single individual in the person of an agent ?—lam in favour of a single 
individual; I think the responsibility should be undivided, as far as possible. 

3605. Is it not your opinion that great advantage asises from the association of 
private enterprise and energy, with a control supervising the expenditure?—I 
think so, provided that the control is complete and sufficient. 

3606. In order that the action should be united and harmonious, it stands 
to reason that the control must lie exercised rationally and moderately ?— 

Certainly. 

3607. There is only one case I think, namely, the Great Indian Peninsular, in 
which the railway affairs are managed through the medium of a Board ?—That is 
the case. 

3608. Is it not the case that the works have been conducted more smoothly, 
with more harmony, and with more general success, than perhaps any other?— 

There have been complaints, but very few, with respect to the interference of the 
officers of the Government with the works of that railway. The members of the 
committee at Bombay, being many of them in the service of the Government, 
and officers of rank in the Presidency, it is very possible that that may have 
caused a sympathy between the proceedings of that committee and the super¬ 
vising officer which may have caused it to work smoothly and beneficially; at the 
same time I think that the officers of Government have too much to do to give 
the attention requisite to the management of a great undertaking like that. 

3609. Did not those complaints to which you have alluded, arise during the 
absence in this country of Colonel Crawford?—I think so; I believe it is since 
Colonel Crawford came to this country that there have been complaints. 

3610. I believe no complaints have arisen in regard to the conduct of Colonel 
Crawford in the superintendence of the railway?—None that I remember. 

3611. Mr. Crauford.'] Are you satisfied generally with the manner in which 
the execution of the contract has been carried out by the railway company in 
this country?—Yes, I am. 

3612. Have you ever had occasion to exercise the veto which by the contract 
is placed in your hands?—No, I have never exercised it, and rny policy has been, 
not to call it into action. Whenever differences of opinion have arisen between 
me and the Railway Board, I have generally found that after a little discussion, I 
have either been convinced or the Railway Board has given way; I am, however, 
of opinion that the veto is a proper provision, and that its existence works well 
although it may never be called into action. 

3613. Do you think there has been any unwillingness on the part of the railway 
company to submit to the supervision exercised by you ?—No, I think not. I 
may safely say, that from the first the Railway Board and myself have worked 
with a common interest and a common object. I have felt that the Government 
interest and the railway interest were in a great measure identical, and that mv 
principal duty was to work as an honest railway director would work to promote 
the interest of the undertaking. There are very few cases in which there is a 
conflict of interest between the Railway Board and the Government. There may 
be a few cases, and in those I have endeavoured to do my best for the interest of 
the Government. 

3614. The Committee understand that you have, practically speaking, since the 
alterations to which you have alluded, power to confirm at the Board nearly all 
the important acts entered upon by the Board ?—I have no power to confirm 
increases of establishment; I have no power, of course, to extend the guarantee; 

I have no power to approve a single letter that goes out to the agent. I do not 

o.6i. I I 4 think 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


256 


Sir James Melvill, 

K. C. B. 


21 June 1858. 


think that it is desirable that I should have the sole power to do those things, and 
I will explain why : all the letters that go from the railway Boards to their agents 
in India go now through the Court of Directors. The Court of Directors, with 
the approbation of the Board of Control, approves those letters, and, having ap¬ 
proved them, communicates to the local Government copies of those letters. It 
the power were given to me, that process could not be gone through. The Court 
of Directors would not, of course, communicate copies of letters merely upon 
my approval, and the letters would lose the force of being sanctioned by the 
authorities. I am afraid the Government of India would not be so attentive as 
they are now to give effect to those letters. 

361.5. You have the power to give your consent to the execution of all indents 
received from India with the sanction of the local government ?—All indents for 
railway materials. 

3616. You have the power, sitting at the Board, to give effect to the consent 
of the Board to the execution of the indents?—Yes, for the acceptance of the 
tender. 

3617. Have you power to give your consent to any purchases that may be 
originated at the Board, and which have not been indented for from India ?—I 
think so. I have so construed the late arrangements as to give me a discretion in 
that respect. 

3618. Mr. Danby Seymour.'] If the power of sanctioning all the proceedings of 
the Railway Board were vested in you, Government could not undertake to be 
responsible for the expenditure of the money ?—I apprehend they would, if the 
power were given. 

3619. If they undertake to be responsible, they ought to know' everything that 
has passed, ought they not?—I think so. 

3620. It is the custom, is it not, with every other department of the Govern¬ 
ment that even the minute details should pass through the hands of the chief?— 
I think so, and it is a sound principle. 

3621. Colonel Kennedy stated that, in his opinion, there was not the slightest 
risk if the guarantee were granted for railways in India to any amount of capital; 
what is your opinion ?—I think that the Government cannot exercise too much 
caution and vigilance in granting guarantees. 

3622. State your ground for that opinion ?—T think that the first duty of a 
Government is the careful administration of the public purse, and, in the next place, 
I think there is a great limit to the construction of railways in India ; I am not 
sure that we are not going a little too fast now, certainly we are going fast enough; 
there is a great tendency to competition; even in the money market here we see 
the effect of largely increasing the guarantees. There is also competition of labour, 
especially of skilled labour, in India, which is beginning to tell, and therefore 1 
should be sorry to see too large and sudden an extension of the railway system, 
and I should be afraid that it would be prejudicial in the end. 

3623. There would be a certain risk to the Government, would there not?—I 
think there is a risk; if you sanction a guarantee for a railway which is not 
profitable, the Government will have to pay. 

3624. You look upon guarantee capital as a loan, do you not? — Practically, I 
have regarded it very much as public money. 

3625. And with regard to the delays said to exist, are not those delays necessary 
in our very complicated form of Government for India?—I think there is too 
much complication. 

3626. In India or in England ?—In India, particularly. 

3627. You think that might be relaxed?—I think there might be some 
relaxation. 

3628. Considerably ?—My idea is that the system in India ought to be very 
much the system that a railway company well administered in this country, 
would observe in controlling the w r orks performed by a contractor. 

3629. With regard to the India Peninsular Railway, do you not think that the 
natives in that part of the country are more advanced than those in other parts of 
India, that they have a greater number of educated natives there, and that any 
kind of public woiks make better progress there than in other parts of India ?— 
It may be so, but it is from that part that we have had the great complaint of the 
want of skilled labour. Mr. Wythes, the large contractor in this country, and 
who has taken a large contract for the railway over the Ghauts, in Bombay, 

has 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 257 

has urgently represented to us the necessity of limiting railway operations in 
India, so as to enable him to get skilled labour. He writes from experience. 

3630. With regard to the Bombay and Baroda Line, do you not think that 
there might be grounds for the opinion that that line ought never to have been 
commenced at all ?—It was commenced under the advice'and recommendation of 
Lord Dalhousie. 

3631. But that was with the intention, was it not, of making it a through line 
to Bengal ?—I think he contemplated its going a little northwards, by Indore, to 
join the East India Railway. 

3632. When the Great Indian Peninsular was sanctioned it became a matter of 
doubt, did it not, whether the other should be continued ?—I think Lord Dalhousie 
sanctioned both. 

3633. Chairman.] You have just been asked by an honourable Member about 
the through line into Bengal ; I think the through line via Indore to join the East 
India Line at Agra has not yet been sanctioned?—That extension has not yet 
been sanctioned. 

3634. Mr. Danby Seymour .] Was that for this reason that it was thought 
better it should meet the East India Line at Mirzapore?—No, I think latterly the 
Baroda Company have applied for leave to extend their line northward. 

3635. Have the Bombay and Baroda Company ever applied for a line from 
Indore to Agra?—Yes. 

3636. When ?—During the last two or three years they have made repeated 
applications for survey of that line, and have recently been discussing the 
expediency of another application, but I dissuaded them from making it at 
present. 

3637. Chairman .] Is it not a line promising great commercial advantages ?— 
They think so ; but I have not seen any reason to encourage them at present. 

3638. Mr. Danby Seymour .] When did they make their first application for 
a line to go from Baroda to Indore ?—Twelve months ago. 

3639. Was it not the view of the Government at home that the trunk lines 
only should be made by guaranteed capital, and that Government should wait to 
see whether companies would come forward to make other railways which were 
wanted without guarantee ?—That was the case. 

3640. That has always governed the discretion of the Government at home, 
has it not ?—I think so. 

3641. The intention was to lay down a network of trunk lines, and to leave 
the others to provide lands?—Yes. 

3642. With regard to Bangalore, there were two proposals, I think, of the 
Madras Company, one to go through Bangalore to Bellary, and the other for a 
branch leading to Bangalore ?—That was the case. The Madras Company were 
anxious to have a line through Bangalore to Bellary; but finding that they could 
not accomplish that, and that the Cuddapah line was to go to Bellary, they 
contented themselves with constituting the line to Bangalore a branch line. 

3643. I believe they were not refused, but were told to defer it until the mam 
line was made ?—Yes. 

3644. Was the Bangalore branch included in the first contract—It was. 

364.5. Do you approve of the Cuddapah line, which has been chosen instead of 

the other?_I think there is strong evidence in favour of the Cuddapah line, but 

I think that the Bangalore line ought to have been constructed also. 

3646 In making railways in India, and in fixing the points at which a limited 
number of guaranteed lines should be made, ought you not, as near as possible, to 

serve equally every pan of the country ?—Certainly. . 

3647* If you had gone by Bangalore, would you not have left an important 
part of the northern district of the Presidency of Madras without any communi¬ 
cation at all -—Yes; but the authorities determined 10 have the Cuddapah line. 
My opinion in favour of the Bangalore line is not that it was to be instead of the 
Cuddapah line, but in addition to it. 

3648. Would you have constructed both lines ?— I should have been in favour 
of the Bangalore branch as well as the Cuddapah line. 

364Q It ? you made the through line to Bellary ?—I would not have gone to 

Bellary; but I am convinced that when the line is made to Bangalore there will 

a line from Bellarv to Bangalore. 

3650. To connect Bombay and Madras do you not think that there was strong 
/• tt laencc 

0.61. K 


Sir James Melvill. 


21 June 1858. 



Sir James Melvill. 


21 June 1858. 


258 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

evidence in favour of a line going through Cuddapah to Bellary ?—I think so, 
many of the Railway Directors thought that it would be better to go from 
Bellary to Bangalore, and on to Madras that way. 

3651. If you had a second ex-officio Director he must have a salary r I sup¬ 
pose so. 

3652. The Government of course wished not to spend more money in a super¬ 
intending staff than was absolutely necessary, may not that have been the reason 
that a second official Director was not appointed ?—I do not think the question 
was ever raised. 

3653. Do you think that a second official Director is necessary ?■—I only sug¬ 
gested the necessity supposing it to be admitted that the whole power must be 
given to the ex-officio Director. 

3654. Under present circumstances you would not advocate the appointment 
of a second official Director?—I do not advocate an extension of power, and 
therefore it is not necessary to advocate the appointment of another official 
Director. 

3655. You think it is not required under present circumstances?—I think 
not, unless the power were wholly committed to the ex-officio Director. 

3656. Are not the ordinary indents passed through the Court of Directors and 
the Board of Control without any delays at all?—There have been delays. 

3657. What time do you consider it takes generally to pass an indent? — 
Indents have generally passed through the Court of Directors on the Wednesday 
following, their being received from the Railway Boards ; but on an average 
they have remained for three or four weeks with the Board of Control before 
the decision has been communicated to the railway authorities. 

3658. Where, in your opinion, has the delay occurred?—I do not mean that 
there was any disposition to the delay which must have occurred at the Board 
of Control, and I can account for it, as the Board of Control have not the 
opportunity of communicating with the official Director who has been an officer 
of the India House. The Court of Directors, when they want information, have 
it at once ; but the Board of Control have not that information, and have to 
apply for it. 

3659. Do you think that the delays are less now than they used to be at the 
Board of Control ?—I think so. 

3660. On the w hole, with the improvement introduced of late, is it your opinion 
that the system of supervision of guaranteed lines of railways has worked well ?—• 
I think the system of supervision has worked easily in this country; but in India 
I think there has been a little jarring, especially at Madras. I do not think that 
the position of the railway authorities and of the Government authorities rela¬ 
tively to each other was quite understood at first; it is beginning to work more 
easily now. 

3661. Do you think that that has been more a personal matter than arising from 
any fault in the system ? - Yes; one man will work the system more easily than 
another; one man will take a different view of his duty, and of what his duty 
requires of him, than another. 

3662. Chairman ,] Have not instructions been sent out recently, pressing on the 
Government of Madras the importance of modifying to a certain degree their 
powers?--They have. A broad distinction is drawn between a railway in con¬ 
struction and a railway in action. When a railway is opened I think the general 
tenor of the instructions is, that the Railway Company should be left to manage 
very much its own affairs, the Government being parties to the rates of fares. 
Whilst a railway is in process of construction, every care is taken to limit the 
expenditure to what is necessary for the efficient construction of the work. 

3663. Were not those instructions sent out in consequence of its being found 
that the system was not worked smoothly, consistent with the rapid progress of 
the works?—They were. 

3664. Mr. Danby Seymour.'] The alteration you wish to see is a greater 
amount of latitude in executing railways in India?—I think so. 

3665. You think greater latitude might be given than exists at present?—I 
think so, but it depends very much upon the individual; I think if I were 
employed to superintend the proceedings in India, I should leave the Railway 
Company a little more to the performance of its own works than has been the 
case 


3666. Do 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 259 

3666. Do you not think it advisable to try it and see how it would work r— 
Yes, but you must be very careful in relaxing supervision. 

3667. Colonel 6j//rc^.] Would you include the disbursements:—No, I have 
drawn a distinction there. 

3668. Mr. Danby Seymour.] Can you inform us why no large English con¬ 
tractor has undertaken the construction of Railways in India ?—I do not know ; 
an attempt was made two or three years ago to induce Sir Morton Peto and Mr. 
Brassey to go to India; I think they were extensively engaged on other works, 
and were unable to go ; I believe there is an apprehension among some of them as 
to the nature of the Government supervision which may have deterred them : 
hut with respect to the Bombay Railway we have found contractors to go out from 
this country. 

3669. Chairman .] Was not an attempt made as far back as 1849, 10 induce 
Mr. Thomas Jackson to undertake some important contracts on the East India 
line?—Yes ; when it was first considered, Mr. Thomas Jackson proposed to con¬ 
struct the whole line as far as Raneegunge, and offered to do so for 8,000/. per 
mile. 

3670. What was the cause of that contract or undertaking breaking down ?— 
The Court of Directors proposed to accept his tender, but the Board of Control 
refused to concur; and, if I remember rightly, calculations were made at the 
Board and were communicated to the Court of Directors showing that it was 
an extravagant offer, and it was therefore declined. 

3671. Mr. Danby Seymour.] Do you not think that it would be a great 
advantage to India to have gentlemen like Sir Morton Peto and Mr. Brassey, 
with their skill, experience and capital, to raise up a system of contractors under 
them for the execution of great works?—I have always been most anxious to 
induce contractors of that description to go to India, and I hope they may still 
do so. 

3672. Chairman i] It has also, I believe, been a great object with the 
Government of India to develope, as far as possible, the energies and resources 
of native contractors?—It has ; they have been anxious from the first that India 
should be resorted to as much as possible for the provision of the materials. 

3673. The proceedings of native contractors have not, I believe, been such as 
to inspire you with much confidence in their power to fulfil their undertakings 
My disappointment has been always with European contractors found in India ; 
there have not been extensive contracts in Bengal with native contractors, but at 
Bombay, I believe, there have been, and they have been satisfactory ; with the 
railway contractors in Bengal the system broke down. 

3674. Do you attribute that to a want of experience, or a want of means ?—I 
think it was owing to a want of capital; they did not know what they were 
undertaking, and I think perhaps they depended too much, as everyone does in 
India, upon the Government. 

3675. The native contractors who have undertaken contracts, and who have 
fulfilled their engagements, have been, I believe, chiefly confined to one class, 
theParsees?—Yes. 

3676. They are a different race of men to any other existing in India f—Yes. 

3677. Colonel Sykes.] Was not the delay respecting the decision on the Surat 
and Bombay line, owing to well informed persons doubting, not only the prudence, 
but the practicability of the undertaking, except at a very unprofitable cost:—Yes; 

I have so stated. . . . . A , 

3678 Can you give the Committee the dates of the arrival at their posts of the 

several officers on the East India and Madras lines ?—That information can be 

furnished to the Committee. . . . 

36-9. Can you state the cost of the iron laid down in constructing the per¬ 
manent way on the first 60 miles of these lines : It can be stated. 

3680. Do you know the total first cost of constructing lines anywhere exclusive 
of rolling stock ?—I believe an account of that kind has been rendered. 

3681 .On which of the lines do you consider that the superintendence on the 
part of the Government has been most strict and minute ?—I think on the Madras 

^ 3*682 Have not many instances of unnecessary expenditure by the railway 
officials in India come before the Boards at which you sit ?—There have been some: 
there may have been an expenditure for bungalows, or something of that kind, 
but I am not aware of any instance of great expenditure. 

.fi, k k 2 3083. Was 


Sir James Melvill. 


21 June 1858. 



26 o 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Sir James Melvill. 3683. Was it part of your duty to take action upon those cases?—I think if 

- any such cases were reported to the Railway Boards, it would be part of my duty 

21 June 1858. to communicate with them as to the best mode of dealing- with the subject. 

3684. And of disallowing the charges?—That would depend very much upon 
the nature of the case. If the Government of India had allowed them, I should 
feel great hesitation in disallowing them; it would be for the Court of Directors 
to communicate with the Government of India. 

3685. In all these cases of reference, the individuals acting contrary to 
instructions, or upon their own authority, the loss has always been out of the 
capital stock, and has not been borne by themselves?—Yes, but I cannot conceive 
how the case could arise ; the system, both in India and in this country, is that 
that only shall be paid for which the Government has sanctioned. 

3686. Nevertheless, in the instances alluded to, which you admit have come 
before the Boards, expenditure has taken place without official sanction, and 
hence the reference home?—There may have been some few instances; I do not 
immediately call them to mind, except in that case of the bungalows ; but there 
may have been some instances in which an expenditure has been incurred which 
the Government of India thought might have been avoided, and the Government 
of India in sanctioning it perhaps have reported the proceedings to the Court of 
Directors, and there may have been a correspondence with the Railway agent in 
India and the Railway Board here. 

3687. Notwithstanding all this minute supervision these cases of expenditure 
have occurred ?—Very rarely. 

3688. A good deal has been said about the delay in the India railways, as 
compared with English lines. For instance, the East India Railway, 120 miles 
long, was opened to Raneegunge in four years and a half ; are you prepared to 
offer an opinion upon that with regard to the London and Birmingham ?—That 
took five years, and therefore the advantage would be in favour of India. 

3689. With all the drawbacks of supervision?—I do not think that the super¬ 
vision has caused much delay ; it has caused jarring and vexation, but not 
much practical delay. 

3690. In the case of the Great Indian Peninsula Railway, 88 miles were 
opened in five years and a half with all these difficulties, and the line to Bristol, 
120 miles, took six years, so that the advantage would be in favour of the Great 
Indian Peninsula ?—Yes, and with enormous difficulties in India; in addition 
to the difficulty of transporting almost every material from this country. 

3691. The Madras Railway to Velore, a distance of 91 miles, was opened in 
four years ; therefore that would have the advantage, in point of celerity, over 
the London and Birmingham and Bristol lines ?—Yes. 

3692. Chairman .] Have you not to set against these disadvantages the cheap¬ 
ness of labour, and the general facility in crossing the country?—Yes; but 
I doubt whether any railway works in Europe have involved a greater amount of 
difficulty than the works over the Ghauts. 

3693.. And the great bridging works, which are common to all?—Yes. 

3694. But otherwise the general character of the country is easy ?—On the 
table lands. 

3695. Colonel Sykes.'] You say you do not wish for any extension of con¬ 
trolling power on your part?—No. 

3696. Without extension, delavs and continual references are inevitable ?—I 
think if the Government authorities were simplified in this country, the delay 
would be much less. 

3697. If you had that power, there would be less delay ?—It might save a little 
time, but I doubt whether it would save any time in construction. 

3698. It would sometimes avoid a delay of three weeks, for instance ?—It 
might save that time in the arrangements for the provision of railway materials, 
hut we must always be beforehand with them. 

3699. Hitherto a reference has generally caused about three weeks’ delay ?— 
Yes ; that delay of three weeks is now avoided by the extension of power already 
given to me as regards indents. 

3700. Mr. T. G. Baring.] I think you were secretary to the Court of 
Directors when the original projects for making railways were proposed ?—I was. 

3701. You are acquainted with the whole course that was pursued from that 
time until the first contract was entered into?—Yes. 

3702. With respect to the control over the expenditure of, the railway, I 

understand 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 261 

understand you to say that the control should be comDletc on the part of the 
East India Company?—I think so. 

3703. Do you think that merely auditing the accounts in India would afford a 
complete control ? No, not a complete control. I think Government must, in 
the first place, sanction the expenditure, and having sanctioned it, the auditor 
would see that it had been properly applied. 

3794 - I understood you to say that you did not think the supervision has 
occasioned anything like serious delay in the construction of railways?—I do not 
think it has caused^ much delay in the construction of the works; I think the 
delay was occasioned by discussions preliminary to the introduction of the railway 
system. 

370 . 5 - A delay of three weeks before obtaining the sanction of the Home 
Government to any step would not necessarily throw the works back three 
weeks ?—1 think not. 

3706. All these cases I presume are considered beforehand ?—I think so. 

3707. Did it ever occur to you that a united Board of the different railway 
companies in this country would be a good thing?—I do not see how it would 
be possible; I do not know what object would be gained by it. 

3708. Have you ever found that one company has competed for freight with 
another?— There have been difficulties as respects freight, in consequence of the 
shipments of the Great Indian Peninsula and the Bombay and Baroda Company 
being to the same port, but as soon as a difficulty arose it was met by a friendlv 
communication on my part with the two companies ; that is one of the advantages 
of the present system of supervision, that the same person acting as official 
director at all the Boards, he is enabled to communicate what is good or what 
is bad in one system to the other Boards, and in that way I think it accomplishes 
great good. 

o C ^ 

3709. On the subject of delay, do I understand you to say that you think 
that the construction of railways has been satisfactory on the whole?—I can 
hardly say satisfactory, because there have been many difficulties which could 
hardly have been foreseen; the Santal rebellion interfered with the East India 
Railway, and that had scarcely ceased when the mutiny broke out; then there 
have been great impediments in the progress of the work in Bengal. 

3710. l)o you conceive that there have been any cases of delay which could 
have been obviated by better arrangement either on the part of the companies or 
the Government?—The contract system introduced in India was introduced 
rather hastily, and the failure of those contracts has caused delay ; it has com¬ 
pelled the railway company to undertake the work themselves ; and when a 
company is thrown into that predicament, it has to seek an extension of its 
staff, which, in the case of India, can only be done by appealing to this 
country. The failure of the contract system has certainly been productive of 
delay. 

3711. Has there been great delay in engaging the services of competent 
engineers to go out to India ?—Occasionally. 

3712. Chairman. 1 Speaking generally, are you favourably disposed to the con¬ 
struction of railways by the contract system, or by what is termed the depart¬ 
mental system?—My impression has been in favour of the contract system, if you 
can < j et < r ood contractors. Of course, I am aware that the contractor seeks a 
profit for himself, which profit it would be desirable that the railway company 
should possess ; but, on the other hand, there are great difficulties in a railway 
company undertaking the work itself; it has to create a very large staff; and I 
think a contractor deals very differently with his staff from what a railway com¬ 
pany would, however constituted ; and I have a great apprehension, that if a 
railway company were constructing these great works, a huge establishment would 
orow up, which it would be very difficult hereafter to deal with. 

fc 3713. Mr. T. G. Baring .] Several complaints have been made of differences 
between the engineers of the railway company and the consulting engineers of the 
Government?—There have been differences. 

3714. You, as official director, are cognisant of all the facts brought before the 

Railway Boards upon this point?—Yes. 

3715. Could you inform us to which party you think blame attaches in these 
transactions?-—I think, as I said before, that the relations of the Government 
officers with the railway company’s officers have not been sufficiently understood 
until lately and that perhaps the Government officers have regarded the under- 

061. KK 3 takin S 


Sir James MelviVL 


21 June 1858. 



Sir James Melvill. 


21 June 1858. 


262 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

taking too much as a purely Government work. Instead of aiding the con¬ 
struction of the work by the railway company, they have looked upon it rather as 
a work of their own. 

3716. Do you mean that the fault rested with the consulting engineers of the 
Government?-—Not entirely; I think there was equal fault on the part of the 
railway company’s engineers, who equally misunderstood their position towards 
the Government. 

3717. You think there were faults on both sides, arising from the new system 
being introduced?—I do. 

3718. Do you believe that those relations are gradually being understood, and 
are being put upon a different footing? — I think that is the case. 

3719. Mr. C. Bruce .] You have expressed a preference for the system of con¬ 
tracts over the other; is it your opinion that it is possible to do justice to the 
Government superintendence without the direct supervision of the Government 
engineer ?-*—I think that the direct supervision is absolutely necessary. 

3720. You think it is necessary, although it might occasion certain misunder¬ 
standing between the two parties ?•—Certainly. 

3721. Mr. T. G. Baring. ] You alluded to some instructions sent out to the 
Madras Government, in reference to Government supervision?—Yes. 

3722. Did they refer to the interference with traffic operations, or to the con¬ 
struction of the line?—To both, but especially to the operations of the line when 
opened. 

3723. You think there is a difference in the degree of supervision which should 
be exercised over the one and the other ?— I do. 

3724. With respect to the payment of monies by the railway company, are 
the monies on which the guarantee is given paid into the treasury of the East 
India Company ?—They are. 

3725. Is the sanction of the Court of Directors required to each payment ?— 
It is. 

3726. How are the payments made when sanctioned by the Court ? — The 
railway company receives its accounts, it passes then under a system of its own, 
and they are then transmitted to the Court of Directors, with a request that a war¬ 
rant may be passed for the payment of the amount. The Court of Directors see 
that the sums required are in respect of contracts that have been sanctioned and 
that the amounts tally with the charges involved in them, and when that is 
ascertained they pass an order for the payment of the amount. 

3727. Are the payments made by cheques specially signed at the Railway 
Board ?—They are. 

3728. 1 presume there is, subsequently, an audit on the part of the Court of 
Directors to see that the payment is for some expenditure that has been sanc¬ 
tioned ?■—The audit takes place before the order for payment is passed. 

3729. So that no irregular payment can take place ?—No. 

3730. The supervision as regards payments is a great protection to the share 
holders as well as to the East India Company?—I think so. 

3731. In your own position, do you think it would be convenient if you had 
power to appoint a deputy in case of your absence?—It would be convenient, 
no doubt; it would have this advantage, of course, that when I was absent the 
supervision would not be interrupted. 

3732. Mr. H. A. Bruce .] You say that there was an extension of your power 
about 12 months ago, and that that was with respect to indents for materials and 
not as to persons. I think you also added, that you did not think it desirable 
that vour power of decision as to the employment of persons should be increased? 
—Yes. 

3733. You are aware, 1 dare say, that it has been a cause of complaint, made 
frequently before the Committee, that delays and obstructions have arisen from 
the want of the speedy means of obtaining persons required by the local engineers 
in India ?—A case of that kind occurred recently, but that was a case which would 
not have been affected by any alteration in the powers of the official director; 
Mr. Turnbull, the resident engineer of the East India Railway Company, proposed 
a large augmentation of his establishment in consequence of the contractors having 
failed, and the work being thrown on the hands of the Railway Company; the 
local government refused their sanction, and therefore the indent never came home, 
consequently that was not a case which the Railway Board were in a position to 
deal with; to this moment, 1 believe, they have not received the indent. 

3734 - Has 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 263 

3734 - Has it ever occurred to you to have to lay before the India Board objec- 
tions to the employment of persons whose employment had been sanctioned by the 
Railway Board in England?—I have never seen any reason to object to any of 
the officers appointed. Those who go out to India are selected upon the recom¬ 
mendation of the consulting engineer in this country, who submits their testimo¬ 
nials and explains their especial qualifications to the Directors. 

3735 * With respect to the employment of materials, it was stated by Colonel 
Kennedy that he, as engineer of the Bombay and Barocia Railway, had strongly 
recommended the use of iron sleepers; that that opinion is confirmed by Mr. 
Stephenson, a member of this Committee, and the eminent engineer; and 
that the use of iron sleepers was refused to him on account of the novelty 
of the experiment; may I ask with whom that objection arose r—If I re¬ 
member right the proposal was, that a system of iron sleepers connected with 
the rail, called Adam’s girder rail, should be introduced upon the Baroda Railway ; 
the Court of Directors, in answering that, said that it was not their practice to 
introduce anything that was purely experimental; that the thing proposed must 
have been tried in this country before they could sanction its introduction into 
India. After a few months had elapsed there came a requisition, sanctioned by 
the Government of Bombay, from the agent at Baroda, that a few miles of this 
description should be sent out; the Court of Directors, although maintaining their 
opinion, were unwilling to object to the Railway Company making the experiment, 
and therefore they sanctioned 20 miles of that rail being sent out. It has not 
yet gone, and Colonel Kennedy has been anxious 10 send a further quantity ; but 
the Court *of Directors have decidedly refused, because they had sanctioned ex¬ 
perimentally the former quantity being sent out, and were unwilling to extend 
the experiment until information had been received as to the result. 

3736. When was the sanction given to the experiment?—I should think about 
io months ago; the other iron sleeper sent out, not for the Baroda Company but 
for the Bombay- Company, is the sleeper which has been used in the construction 
of the railway in Egypt; it was sent out experimentally by the Great Indian 
Peninsula Company, and they have latterly received a favourable report of the 
experiment, and 70 miles of it have been ordered within the last few weeks, 
upon a requisition of the Government of Bombay. 

3737 * Gan y°u inform us whether within the last six months there have been 
any increased facilities in transacting the business, as between the railway autho¬ 
rities in this country and those in India?—I think the railway business is more 
quickly transacted in this country than it used to be, and there is less of jarring 
in India than there was. The subject has been better understood in the relations 
of the railway officers to the Government officers. 

3738. There have been no organic changes in the system within the last six 
months?—I think not; the office of secretary to the public works department has 
been separated from that of superintendent engineer on the part of the Govern¬ 
ment in the railway department. 

3739. You stated, in your opinion, that there were objections to the repeated 
increase of railways in India, and that ^ou had already doubts whether we were 
not going on too fast; have you maturely weighed and balanced the advantages 
which every one must see would arise from the extension of railways in India 
against those disadvantages which you anticipate ?—I think the advantages of a 
w C ell considered railway system in India cannot be over-rated, and it is because I 
so highly value them that I should be sorry to see too great haste in the extension 

of the system. ... . 

0740'. The disadvantages arising from the competition ior money in the market, 
foiMnstanee, and leading to some increased expenditure, might be balanced by 
the advantages resulting from the development of trade ?— No doubt that is the 
case, but there is not merely the difficulty as to money, theie is the question of 
freight; and to this there seems to me to be a natural limit unless the Govern¬ 
ment or the railway company are prepared to go beyond the ordinary means, and 
to construct fleets of their own for the mere purpose of transporting railway 
materials ; the difficulty of freight already meets us; it meets us in a rise of price, 
and sometimes by an inability to obtain a sufficient quantity of tonnage. 

Q741 Has there been any practical difficulty in obtaining a supply of skilled 
labour in this country for India railways ?-1 do not think there would beany 
difficulty but the railway companies have not thought of sending out masons and 
people of that description, who come under the denomination in India of skilled 
F /n, k k 4 labour, 


Sir James Melvill. 


21 June 1858. 



264 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Sir James Mclvill labour, and it is there that the difficulty has arisen. It is in that description of 

--— skilled labour that we have found the difficulty, and not in the superintendence or 

21 June 1858. inspection. 

3742. Chairman.'] Have you confidence generally in the administration by the 
railway Boards in this country, of what I may term the great public trusts con¬ 
fided in them?—I have; I have watched with the greatest anxiety the proceed¬ 
ings of the Railway Boards from the first, and with very few exceptions, I have 
observed nothing but the most straightforward desire to co-operate with me 
in the execution of those works to the satisfaction of the Government and of their 
proprietors. 

3743. From all that we have heard it is quite evident that the harmony that 
appears generally to have existed at the Railway Boards has been mainly attribut¬ 
able to the discretion and tact exercised by the ex officio director ; but is not 
the exercise of great discretion and tact absolutely essential to the carrying on of 
these complicated proceedings?—I think it absolutely essential that you should 
have the right man in that place. 

3744. With regard to railway operations in India, are you on the whole 
satisfied with the exertions that have been made by the person employed by 
the Railway Company in that country, in the execution of those works?—Yes; 
I think so. 

3745. I think we may gather from all that we have heard, that the railway 
works will bear a favourable comparison with works constructed in other parts of 
the world?—I should think so; I am told that the railway in Bengal is a work 
that will bear comparison with any similar work in the world. 

3746. I have one question to ask you with regard to the contract and depart¬ 
mental s}'stem ; keeping in view the economical execution of those works, would 
you set the profits of the contractor against the large expense consequent upon 
the growing up of establishments under the departmental system, and yet give 
the preference distinctly in favour of the contract system ?—Yes, I think I would. 

I am not sorry, however, that the departmental system is being tried; it is in 
progress at Madras, and I think the result there will be satisfactory in point of 
expense, but I would rather see both systems at work with our experimental lines 
in India that we may judge by-and-by of the result. 

3747. Is not the reason this, that in Madras and perhaps in other parts of the 
departmental system, there has been injury owing to the absence of persons of 
sufficient capital to undertake and fulfil contracts?—If we look only to India 
that is undoubtedly the case, but I think that contractors in this country are 
beginning to look a little more to India than they did. The Eastern of Bengal 
Railway Company, recently formed, hope to induce contractors to go from this 
country. With respect also to the Scinde Railway, we advertised publicly and 
we got an excellent contractor to undertake the execution of that work. 

3748. Will you name the contractor ?—7I think it is Mr. Bray. 

3749. Has he not executed one or two sections of the East India line :—I think 
Messrs. Bray & Elmsley were the only contractors who succeeded in Bengal. 

3750. I believe he is the only contractor who has not broken down ?—I 
think so. 

3751. I have one question to ask you with regard to the Bombay and Baroda 
line. Will not that railway be in this position, that it will be a considerable 
length of line leading from a highly productive country to Surat, where there is 
no actual port of shipment in existence?—It is a bad port, but there is water 
communication ; the cotton comes down from Surat to Bombay by sea. 

3752. It hardly appears to be giving the railway company a fair chance if that 
large and important section of its line should be opened without the other; and in 
consequence of the delay that occurred in sanctioning the extension from Surat 
to Bombay, they would be placed in that position ?—Yes, I think that is the 
case, though they have the opportunity of water communication. 

3753 * M u T. G. Baring .1 Have you any recollection of the foim of the 
original prospectus of the Bombay and Baroda Railway Company ?—Ido not 
recollect it. 

3754 * Was it the case that in the original prospectus the Company suggested 
as an alternative the commencement of the line from Surat, and not from Bombay ? 
—I believe so. 

3755 - Colonel Sykes.] Considering the difficulties of a coast line and its 

probable 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 265 

probable cost, do you think there are chances of its competing with the sea ?— 
Some engineers think favourably of it, others do not. 

3756. Chairman .] Has there been a strong objection felt to the existence of 
two large railway termini in Bombay?—Avery serious objection. 

3757 * Was that upon the ground of expense?—The space is limited, and 
Government felt that it would be inconvenient, and they are most anxious that 
the terminus of the Great Indian Peninsular should become the terminus of the 
Baroda line. 

3758. Has much difficulty been experienced there in coming to an arrange¬ 
ment between the two companies for the use of a common terminus? —It has not 
been settled. 

3759. A line is contemplated to join the Great Indian Peninsular? — At 
or near to Callian. 

3760. Are there not considerable engineering difficulties to that scheme ?— 
That point has not been reported upon. 

3761. At present, the line from Surat to Bombay is sanctioned?—It is; but 
the mode in which it is to enter Bombay is not determined. They are working 
from Surat downwards ; and I think they have now commenced 30 miles. 

3762. The question 1 understand is now rather one between the two railway 
companies ?—It is one for the Government in the first instance, because the 
Government provides the land. 

3763. The local government of Bombay entertain strong objections to granting 
the land necessary for two termini?—I think they do ; land is enormously expen¬ 
sive in Bombay. 

3764. In regard to the Scinde Railway, we have had it stated, I think, that 
no less than 11 surveys were called for, and that very considerable delay took 
place in consequence of the Commissioner of Scinde not being vested with suffi¬ 
cient authority to give direct sanction to the railway operations ; is it your opinion 
that a great deal of controversy might have been avoided had he been vested 
with such powers ?-—I think it desirable that the Commissioner of Scinde should 
have extensive powers in the supervision; that it is important in every point of 
view that the supervisor should be as near the spot as possible. 

3765. It is the fact, I believe, that after all the different propositions had been 
discussed, the original scheme suggested was adopted:—Just so. 

3766. No better scheme has been propounded ?—No. 

3767. I have one question to ask with regard to the transport of heavy 
materials and permanent way. Is it your opinion, for instance, in the case of 
the East India line, that it would be desirable that the railway company 
should have a flotilla of vessels of their own, for the purpose of conveying their 
materials?—That point is now under consideration, and so far as I can judge, 
it is impossible, without some means of that kind, to convey their materials up 
the country. 

3768. Was not a proposition to that effect made two or three years ago by 
the railway company themselves to the Government at home?—I am not aware 
of that; 1 do not remember it. The East India Railway Company attempted to 
make a'contract for the conveyance of their materials up the country, but it broke 
down. 

3769. You are distinctly of opinion that the vast amount of dead weight which 
will have to be carried will require some arrangement cf that kind ?—That is 
the great difficulty that meets the East India Railway Company at this moment; 
I believe they are obliged to have recourse to native boats and to other means of 

draught. , . , . 

3770. Is it not the case that considerable losses arise to the company from 

boats occasionally stranding, and from their having to wait for the floods?— A 
great many losses of that kind, I fear, have occurred during the mutiny. 

& 3771> There has been great difficulty in obtaining means of transport at 
particular times ?—I think if we had had" the means of transport, the Allahabad 
and Cawnpore line would have been opened long ago; the getting of the 
materials up the country before you have the means of railway communication 
upon the line, is one of the great difficulties. 

"772. I believe only one scheme has been proposed for the construction ot a 
line of railway without guarantee, which goes by the name of the Mutlah scheme; 
state to the Committee what condition that enterprise is in, and whether it is 

0.61. L L one 


Sir James Melvill, 
k. c. B. 


21 June 1858. 



266 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Sir James 31 elvill, one in which they are unwilling to proceed without a guarantee?—They have 

k. c. b. not officially stated their unwillingness to proceed without a guarantee; the 

- Government have promised the land, but whether the promoters will go on with 

ai June 1858. jt, it is impossible to say ; it depends upon their competency to get money. 

3773. They have experienced difficulty in getting money, I believe?—They 
have not got it yet, I think. 

3774. Are their operations suspended in consequence? — They are not at 
present going on; I saw that there had been a meeting lately, and that Colonel 
Kennedy, as chairman, himself declared his unwillingness to be a party to any 
application for a guarantee. 

3775. What is your prospective opinion in regard to the feasibility of con¬ 
structing railways in India without a guarantee ?—1 think if the present railways 
were to become eminently successful and productive of profit we might hope to 
see a disposition on the part of the public to invest their money in schemes with¬ 
out a guarantee. 

3776. Do you anticipate that the profit which will arise from railway traffic 
in India will fully come up to the estimates that have been formed?—I have 
strong doubts about it; I have always regarded it in this light; our expendi¬ 
ture for railways in India must necessarily be on a large scale ; we have to 
transport everything, with the expense of freight, to India ; we have European 
agency, the most expensive that can be used in India, and that must continue to 
be very largely the case even when the lines are opened ; on the other hand we 
shall have enormous traffic, I have no doubt, but, to have enormous traffic, and 
to suit the rates to the capacity of the people, you must have very low rates of 
fares. Now we have these two things, European expenditure on the one hand, in 
the construction of the railway, and Indian rates on the other; and how you are 
to gain a large profit consistently with those two things is a problem I cannot see 
the solution of. 

3777. Is it not the case, that the original estimates of the profits of railway 
traffic were based mainly upon the traffic arising from goods?—Yes. 

3778. Has it turned out in practice that the passenger traffic has largely 
exceeded any estimate that was formed of it?—That is the case. 

3779. Do you anticipate any probable limit, provided the rates of fare are 
kept at a moderate standard, to the amount of passenger traffic ?—I think the 
traffic will be very large. 

3780. Colonel Sykes.'] Has not the system of large contracts at Bombay had 
the effect of preventing the occurrence of the causes of collision between the 
Government officers and the railways officers ?—I do not know ; there has not 
been much collision at Bombay, but 1 am not sure whether it is owing to the 
large system of contracts, because the contractors must be supervised, as well as 
the railway officers. 

3781. Is the successful administration of the railway affairs at Bombay to be 
attributed to the system of contracts, or to'the management of the authorities? — 
I do not think it is to be much ascribed to the difference of the system with 
respect to the mode of construction; it depends very much upon the judgment 
of the person appointed to supervise. 

3782. It has been successful in the system at Bombay?—There have been 
complaints, but they have not been numerous at Bombay. 

3783. Was not the construction of the Madras line left altogether to the rail¬ 
way officers themselves, without the employment of large contractors ?—Yes • 
there were no large contractors at Madras. 

3784. It was left to the railway officers?—Yes; the construction there is 
departmental. 

3785. Has not the Commissioner in Scinde been now invested with powers of 
control, in consequence of the instructions from the Court of Directors ?—With 
greater powers than he had, but still not with all the powers which the railway 
companies are anxious be should possess. 

3785*. Is the Commissioner dissatisfied with the present arrangement ?_I 

rather think he is now satisfied. 

3786. Mr. Cheetham.] I think you stated that the question of railways was 

brought to the attention of the East India Company in the year 1844?_I 

believe so. 

3787. But it was 1849 before you were appointed ex officio director ?—Yes. 

3788. At 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 267 

3 J 88 - At this moment, I believe, there is no special railway department of the 
fcast India House ?—The railway business is conducted in the financial depart¬ 
ment of the secretary’s office. 1 

3789- Has not that business been forced upon the East India Company without 
any previous decision upon the question ?—The necessity existed for the forma¬ 
tion of the department, no doubt, and it has been a most efficient department of 
the India House. r 

3790. Do you assent to this remark of Mr. Danvers: “ We have not actually 
a railway department, but it so happens that it is a department which has grown 
into existence”?—That is the fact, because when the railways were undertaken, 
theie was only one railway company; then the correspondence was managed in 
the branch of the secretary s office above named, and it has gradually grown into 
a distinct department. 

3791. Do you think that a question of such magnitude and importance to India 
should be thus allowed to be forced by necessity upon the East India House, 
instead of its being gravely considered beforehand by the Government?—In the 
first instance it was only proposed to sanction two companies, and for that it did 
not seem necessary to create a separate and distinct department, but onlv to 
commit the duty to an intelligent officer, which was done. 

3792. Since 1 S49, up to the present time, you do not think that there have been 
delays in the construction of the railways by reason of the want of such a depart¬ 
ment at the India House ?—Certainly not; I believe there has been scarcely a 
cielay in the India House in the management of the railway business ; I believe 
that weekly almost it has been cleared off, and that every business that was 
required has been promptly carried forward. 

3793 - You have stated that, previous to the enlargement of your powers as 
ex officio director, delays arose in the transaction of business ?—There were 
delays. 

3794- But that since your powers have been enlarged, those delays have not 
arisen?—They have not. 

3795. Have you any suggestion to make as to the advisability of still further 
enlarging your powers ?—I think that any enlargement would render necessary an 
alteration in the constitution of the office. 

3796. I understood you to say that letters upon every question of detail must 
pass through the Boards ?—That is the case. 

3797. Do you consider that essential in matters of detail ?—The difficulty is 
in drawing the line. 

3798. Would not the line be sufficiently drawn, by the Court of Directors on 
the one hand, and the Board of Control on the other, giving their assent to the 
survey of the country, and fixing the capital to be guaranteed ?—In that case 
there would be no control over the expenditure. I cannot imagine any Govern¬ 
ment being justified in giving a guarantee for a large sum of money for a work to be 
constructed by a private company without taking care that the money was pro¬ 
perly expended. 

3799. Would not that supervision be exercised by you, sitting as ex officio 
director at the various Boards, and giving your assent to the various operations ? 
— The authorities declined to delegate so important a power to any officer. 

3800. Has not that occasioned delay ?—The constitution of the office of 
ex-officio director would require to be altered materially if powers of that descrip¬ 
tion were delegated to him. 

3801. Would it not materially diminish the amount of delay ?—I doubt very 
much whether any of the delay which has arisen, except in the first instance, has 
materially retarded the progress of the works. 

3802. Colonel Pears has given it as his opinion, after a careful investigation 
and practical experience on the survey of the Madras line, that it would have 
been much better for India had the Government undertaken the construction of 
the railway works in that country ; do you agree in that opinion ?—I do not. 

3803. Is it not the fact that India is almost devoid of communication even as 
regards roads and water communication ?—That is the case. 

3804. Are we not then necessarily restricted to the extension of railway com¬ 
munication ?—I think so. It is of immense importance to India that railways 
should be judiciously extended. 

3805. Is it not the duty of the East India Company as regards the two first modes 

0.61. l l 2 of 


Sir James Melvill, 
k. c. B. 


21 June 1858. 



268 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Sir James Melt ill, of communication, to undertake the construction of roads, and also to improve 
K.c.s. the navigation of the country?—It is the great duty of every Government. 

‘ 3806. Then why should it not be their duty also as regards railway communi- 

21 June 1858. ca tion?— I think, it is their duty to see that railways are introduced; and if it 

were a question whether there should be railways at all, or whether the Govern¬ 
ment should make them, the Government ought to make them. 

3807. Could not the Government have constructed railways by means of a 
loan, in place of guaranteeing capital raised by private companies ?—No doubt 
the Government could raise the money by a direct loan, as well as through the 
instrumentality of a private company. 

3808. In that way would not much delay have been obviated ?—The diffi¬ 
culties which the railway company experienced would have been felt by the 
Court of Directors. 

3809. But not to the same extent? — Not to the same extent; but I do not 
think that any Court of Directors, when the Bank rate was 9 or 10 per cent., 
would have been mad enough to have recourse to the money market to raise 
money. 

3810. Was not delay occasioned by the Board having to send out to India for 
the surveys ?—I think not; the Government found it necessary to send profes¬ 
sional men from the country to make inquiries and to report. We were in the 
dark with respect to railways, and the application of the system to India, and 
great and serious doubts were entertained, and the best engineer that could be 
obtained was sent to India for the purpose of inquiring, and it was those 
inquiries that caused a great deal of the delay. 

3811. No practical result has ensued from those surveys, I think ?—The prac¬ 
tical result was this, that the Government obtained information which enabled 
them to decide upon several schemes. 

3812. Each company had to survey its own line, after all?—Yes, to enable it 
to trace out the line. 

3813. With regard to the construction of railways generally, had you made 
yourself acquainted with Colonel Kennedy’s statement, as to the probable economy 
resulting in a military point of view ?—I have seen his statement. 

3814. Have you any opinion to offer upon it?—I think it all remains to be proved. 

3815. You stated that there is a natural limit to the construction of railways in 
India ?—I think there is a natural limit to the provision of freight, so long as India 
depends npon this country for iron. 

3816. Do you think that that natural limit has been attained ?—I am disposed 
to think it has, or nearly so. 

3817. Do the facts bear out that opinion, when we find that, between 1849 
and 1858, we have only 300 miles opened in that country :—You must look to 
what we have in progress. We have opened railways as fast as they have been 
opened in England, and I do not think it can be made matter of complaint that so 
little has been done in the way of opening lines, when the Committee looks at the 
amount of railway works now in progress. 

3818. In nine years of practical action, we have only 300 miles of railway 
opened?—We have a great deal going forward to open. 

3819. Mr. T. G. Baring.] The amount of heavy goods sent out to India would 
not be confined to those 300 miles which have been opened ?—Certainly not. 

3820. Therefore it is not a correct way of putting the point to judge of what 
you have sent out to India by the extent of line opened ?—Certainly not. 

3821. Mr. Cheet/iam.] Supposing that, in the construction of a railway, you 
had commenced at each end, and proceeded to make it right through, instead of 
opening one part and then another, would not greater facility as to time have been 
gained by that ?—I think not, because of the enormous difficulty of transporting 
railway material up the country, a difficulty which is meeting us as regards the 
Punjaub Railway and the East India Railway; it is one of the greatest difficulties 
we have to encounter. The earthworks in the upper part of India now are in a 
state of great forwardness, but we are waiting for the permanent way. 

3822. Mr. Campbell.] Has not that difficulty arisen from the opening of the 
line at different points r—I think the difficulty might have been increased by a 
desire to open a part of the line in the upper provinces, but, at the same time, I 
believe all railway contractors will tell you that even if you adopt the telescopic 
plan you must convey a quantity of your materials by other modes than the rail¬ 
way itself. 


3823. Mr. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). a 69 


3823. Mr. Ckeetham .] Have you formed any opinion as to the propriety of Sir James Melvill, 
making tramways for the purpose of taking traffic down the main line?—I have k.c.b. 

seen a report by the Madras Railway Company as to the tramways, and that -— 

report is not favourable; they think it is better to have railways, but by and 21 June 1858. 
by, no doubt, tramroads may be useful, as feeders to the trunk lines. 

3824. In the Bombay Presidency is not a large part of the country devoted to 
the growth of cotton ? How is that to be encouraged ?—When we get the railway 
to Nagpoor and Jubbulpoor, I hope there will be plenty of cotton brought down. 

When once you have a railway, I have no doubt people will look out for the pro¬ 
duce of the country. 

3825. Is it your opinion, as regards the whole of the East India Railways, 
that they have been sanctioned by the Government mainly, with regard to political 
rather than commercial views ?—No ; I think Government have looked to both; 
they have looked at what was beneficial to the country, and have attached 
importance also to commercial objects. 

3826. Chairman .] Is it not the case that the whole question of railway com¬ 
munication in India was first privately discussed in 1841 ?—I believe it was. 

3827. It was first started by Mr. Stephenson, l believe?—Yes. 

3828. Through the medium of a new official communication to the Court of 
Directors ?—1 believe so. 

3829. The Court, 1 think, treated it as a wild enterprise ?—I think they were 
of opinion that India was hardly prepared for railways. 

3830. So that we must date the first substantial prospect for the construction 
of any line of railway in India in 1844?—I think so. 

3831. Sir Macdonald Stephenson went out, I believe, and obtained very accu¬ 
rate statistic information at a great expense of time and trouble, and returned to 
England in 1845 f—I believe so. 

3832. No actual railway works were commenced, no sod was turned, I believe, 
until 1850; will you state to the Committee your own opinion as to tlie main 
cause of that long delay, and whether you arc of opinion that much valuable time 
was lost in the interval ?—I think that the Government, having to consider the 
propriety of adopting measures involving perhaps an unprecedented system of 
support by means of guaranteeing a rate of interest upon large sums of money to 
be expended by private companies, might well be excused for pausing and 
hesitating, and afterwards for seeking the opinion of the Government of India 
upon the subject. I well remember that when railway enterprise, under a gua¬ 
rantee, was first thought of for India, the late Sir Robert Peel repudiated it in strong 
terms, as not only unprecedented, but very indiscreet. I mention this merely to 
show that the Government may be a little excused for having hesitated and 
delayed. Then the reference to India caused delay, and if my recollection serves 
me "right, when we were prepared to act there came a crisis in the money 
market, which absolutely prevented the railway company from raising the money. 

3833. But before we go to that, let me ask you this question ; you sent out 
Mr. Sims accompanied by two engineers r —Yes. 

3834. I believe Mr. Sims was sent out in 1845, and completed his surveys, and 
obtained the requisite information during the cold season, and returned in 1846? 

—Yes. 

-835. Was not a distinct proposal made by the East India Railway Company in 
the year 1846, when if the project had been accepted the money might have been 
obtained upon easy terms almost immediately ? — As it happened that is possible, 
but there were discussions between the two branches of the Government; the 
Court of Directors were disposed to give more liberal terms than the Board of 
Control, which wanted to limit the guarantee to 15 years; it was impossible to 
raise the money upon those conditions, but before these discussions terminated 
there came the crisis in the money market. 

3836. You think that the great weight of the opinion, and the great sagacity 
of Sir Robert Peel may have operated upon the Board of Control, and it is pos¬ 
sible to that may be attributed the alarm and apprehension as to a speedy deter¬ 
mination of the question?—I think that the Earl of Ripon was president of the 
Board of Control, and Sir Robert Peel was in power, and of course Ins opinion 
upon a matter of that kind would have great weight, there being no experience to 

guide us as to the propriety of adopting what was proposed. 

3837. I am rioht j n supposing that the main objections arose with the Board 
of Control at thaUime, and not with the Court of Directors ?—The main objec- 

0.61. L13 tl0ns 



270 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Sir James Melvill , 
K. c. B. 

21 June 1858. 


tions certainly, that is to say the objection to grant those terms which would have 
enabled the Railway Company to obtain the money. 

3838. It is the case that in 1846 the money might have been obtained on easy 
terms?—I believe that was the case. 

3839. Then arose the commercial crisis of 1847 ?—Yes. 

3840. Followed by the French Revolution of i 848 ?—Yes. 

3841. Two circumstances which paralysed all commercial operations r—Yes. 

3842. There were considerable difficulties, and a long controversy ensued 
during the year 1849, and the early part of 1850?—I believe so; there was, 
among other points, a question about dividend and interest, or something of that 
kind. 

3843. I believe the Board of Control again hung back, and again frustrated a 
proposition offered by the Court of Directors ?—I believe it was so. 

3844. Can you state the precise date ?—In August 1849 we had the con¬ 
tract, and therefore it must have been before that. 

3845. Then do I understand that although in your opinion, vaiid excuses 
may be offered for the timidity shown on the part of the Government in sanc¬ 
tioning the guarantee upon these large sums of money, had less timidity been 
shown there is no doubt that railway operations might have been commenced some 
four years earlier than they were commenced in India?—If the Court of Directors 
and the Board of Control had jumped to a conclusion at once, of course it 
would have been so. 

384(5. Mr. Campbell .] Was there nothing in connexion with the position of 
affairs in India to induce the Government to come io a rapid conclusion upon 
the subject of railways from the year 1837 to the period of the Punjaub war?—I 
have no doubt there had been a great deal to make railways desirable. 

3847. Was there not an enormous demand for supplies by the Commissariat 
Department?—No doubt, during the Afghan war. 

3848. Would not the difference in the cost of the supply in Scinde and Bengal 
have paid all the cost of constructing a line of railway ?—A railway would have 
been of immense advantage. 

3849. Might not the famine of 1837 also have been materially mitigated r—Of 
course, railways would have facilitated tne transport of food. 

3850. Those matters were not at the time of sufficient importance in the 
opinion of the Government?—I do not think they had them under consideration 
at that time; but the home authorities did agree upon the expediency of intro¬ 
ducing railways upon imperial and commercial grounds generally. 

3851. Mr. Cheetham.] Do you think that the Bombay and Baroda Railway 
can compete successfully with the coasting vessels in bringing produce from Surat 
to Bombay r—Doubts may be entertained upon that point; but I think that a 
railway gets the better of sea transport. 

3852. Chairman .] Especially when you consider how 7 small a vessel must be to 
ply from Surat?—Yes. 

3853. Mr. Cheetham.'] Would it not be essential io carry the line into the pro¬ 
vince of Surat ?—It may be important to do so. 

5854. Colonel Sykes.] I see that one district of country between Nagpoor and 
the mouth of the Godavery is without any railway ?—Yes. 

3855. Is that a country of great agricultural produce?—I believe so. 

3856. Mr. Campbell.] It is not your opinion that the profits will exceed the 
amount of the guarantee ?—I have spoken very doubtfully ; I cannot see my way 
clear to a large profit. Lord Dalhousie had the most sanguine expectations. 

3837. You are aware that the land costs the company nothing?—Yes. 

3858. And you are aware that no competing lines are allowed to exist? — I am 
not sure of that. 

3859. Have any competing lines been sanctioned?—The Southern of Madras 
will, I hope, not be a competing line with the Madras line ; but some persons 
apprehend that it may be. 

3860. The law expenses that are so very heavy an item in English railways do 
not exist in India ?—That is true. 

3861. And in estimating the power of the people to pay fares, do you not 
make some allowance for the improved condition of the people affording an 
opportunity of enhancing those rates ?—Yes; but still, for a long course of years 
you must have low fares. 

3862. Do you attach importance to the difference of cost between a mixed 

establishment 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


establishment of Europeans and natives as compared vvith a European establish- 
ment ?—Yes. 

3863* Although a European establishment would be more costly, all the sub¬ 
ordinates who are natives will receive a much smaller remuneration than subordi¬ 
nates in this country ?—I am aware of that, but you must have a large amount of 
European agency even in the lower grades ; there are very few things as yet with 
which you can trust the natives of India in the management of railways. The 
native pointsmen on the East India Railway, when they first saw a train approach¬ 
ing, ran away. 

3864. The collection of tickets and money, you would not trust to the natives 
ot India?—Not at present, but, I think, in time you might do so. 

3865. Of course it will advance the moral and social condition of the natives P 
—Certainly ; I think there is no limit to the advantages of railways in that respect. 

3866. Mr. T. G. Baring.'] Was there any practical proposal made to the 
Court of Directors for making a railway previous to 1844 ?—There was no prac¬ 
tical proposal; I think there was a conversation, and that I saw Mr. Stephenson 
upon it. 

3867. Are you aware whether Lord William Bentinck ever suggested the intro¬ 
duction of railways ?—Not that I am aware of ; his great system was steamboat 
navigation for the rivers of India. 

3868. Do you agree with the opinion expressed by Mr. Noad, that it was un¬ 
necessary for the Government of the East India Company to make any inquiries 
in India previous to sanctioning railways?—Ido not agree in that opinion ; I 
think Government would have failed in its duty if it had not made those inquiries. 

3869. Such an inquiry was directed by a letter addressed in May 1845 to the 
Government of India ?—That is the case. 

3870. Do you know the date of the answer that was received ?—I think it was 
in 1846. 

3871. Was it considered by a committee of the Court of Directors on being 
received ?—It was. 

3872. That took place in October 1846?—Yes. 

3873. A difference of opinion between the Court of Directors and the Board 
of Control arose in consequence of the recommendation of that committee ? 

It did. 

3874. That difference of opinion lasted from the end ot October 1846, when 
the Court’s proposal was sent to the Board, until July 1847, when the Board 
virtually gave way to the view entertained by the Court?—Exactly. 

3875''. What 1 gather from your evidence is this, that supposing the Board of 
Control had agreed with the Court at first, at the end of October 1846, the delay 
from October to July would have been saved ?—It would. 

3876. When the home Government of India agreed to the proposal in July 
1847, what was the obstacle which delayed the contract with the Company until 
the end of 1849 ?—I think it was the money crisis. 

3877. That was an obstacle which nothing could have averted ? It was. 

3878. In the course of the negotiations with the company, did the Court of 
Directors propose to make the railways themselves ? I think there was a dis¬ 
position at one time on the part of a majority of the Court of Directors to make 

the railways. , . t . 

3879 Do you agree with Mr. Danvers statement ; he says that on the 24th 
of January 1849 the Court resolved to terminate the negotiations, intending to 
propose that the Government should take the construction of the radway into its 

own hands?—Yes. . ^ 

3880. The Board of Control differed from that decision r—Yes 

3881. And the result was the arrangement with the East India Railway 

^ 0882. Do you think that there was any greater delay than was almost inevitable 
in considering” so important a question ?-I do not, if the state of the money market 


■5883. The Government of India, I believe, thought that the granting of land 
was a sufficient inducement to railway companies to undertake the construction 

° 3884 1 Lord Hardinge, who was Governor-general, 1 believe, differed from Ins 
Council; he was of opinion that railways should be still more encouraged . 
Yes, he thought it would be a great saving tu the military expenditure. ^ 


0 . 01 . 


Sir Janies Melvill , 

K.C.B. 


21 June 1858. 



Sir James Melvill, 

K. C. B. 


21 June 1858. 


272 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

3885. He gave much the same opinions as were subsequently entertained by 
Colonel Kennedy ?— Yes; Colonel Kennedy is a little more sanguine than Lord 
Hardinge. 

3886. I believe there were some other differences of opinion between the Court 
of Directors and the Board of Control subsequent to that first important difference 
of opinion ?—With reference to the functions of the ex officio director. 

3887. Have you any opinion to offer as to the difference of opinion upon the 
question of guarantee or interest?—The railway company were anxious that the 
guarantee should be one of dividend ; but the Court of Directors said that 
they would only guarantee interest upon the sums placed in their hands. Then 
the shareholders took alarm, and said it would not be a sufficient guarantee, 
because there might be losses. That was compromised by the Court of Directors 
agreeing that the railway company should have the power at any time, upon six 
months’ notice, to demand the return of their capital intact. That satisfied the 
railway proprietors, because they said, that if, when the railway was opened, they 
should find themselves subject to any losses, they had only to exercise that power ; 
and therefore their risk would be of six months’ interest, and no more. That was 
the arrangement made upon the question of dividend. 

3888. Practically, it was very nearly a guarantee of a dividend ?—Yes, it was 
only a difference of six months. 

3889. Statements have been made to this Committee of delays which have 
taken place in sanctioning lines in other parts of India, the Bombay and Baroda 
line for instance ; speaking generally, do you believe that the Government of 
India here has been ready to sanction all those lines as soon as they hud sufficient 
inlormation from India on the subject?—I think so. Their disposition has been 
not to sanction any line until the local Government had reported favourably 
upon it. 

3890. In order to make railways pay, the question of gradients is, of course, 
an important one?—No doubt, because of the expense of management afterwards. 

3891. And also the particular lines which were to be selected?—Yes. 

3892. It would, therefore, be necessary, more especially in the commencement 
of railway undertakings in India, that all these points should receive grave con¬ 
sideration ?—No doubt; and that was the object probably of securing to the 
Government of India the right of determining' the line. 

c O 

3893. The Bombay and Calcutta lines were sanctioned as experiments ?— 
They were. 

3894. Was not the whole subject afterwards referred to Lord Dalhousie ?— 
Yes ; but I think previous to that, sanction had been given to a line in the 
Madras Presidency. 

3895. The Madras Railway was postponed in consequence of a difference of 
opinion between the Board of Control and,the Court of Directors?—Yes; the 
Court advocated the construction some time before the Board assented. 

3896. The subject having been referred to Lord Dalhousie, he wrote a very 
able minute upon railways?—He did. 

3897. That being the foundation system of railways in India?—Yes. 

3898. The views of Lord Dalhousie have been carried out?—They have. 

3899. Do you agree with the views expressed in that minute of Lord Dal¬ 
housie ?—I do as to railways in general ; he may appear to some to be a little 
too sanguine. 

3900. No man could have been found in this country better able to give an 
opinion than Lord Dalhousie upon a matter of that kind ?—It is impossible, I 
think. 

3900*. From his knowledge of the subject in England, and being able to com¬ 
municate with all the railway engineers in India?—Yes. 

3901. He was in communication with Major Pears ?—Yes.* 

3902. And he had the assistance of engineers at Calcutta, and he had the 
correspondence from Colonel Crawford at Bombay ?—Yes. 

3903. So that his opinion was formed after a mature consideration of the whole 
question of railways ?—It was. 

3904. Chairman.'] You stated just now, that generally speaking when a 
scheme had obtained the approval of the local Government in India, it received 
the sanction immediately of the Government at home ; is it not the case that the 
extensive scheme of the Bombay and Baroda line to Bombay received the ap¬ 
proval 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 273 

proval of the Bombay Government nearly three years before it received the 
sanction of the home authorities ?—I think it was necessary to repeat the reference 
to the Government of Bombay on the subject of part of the scheme. The Court 
was not satisfied with the first communication from India. 

39 ° 5 - Mr. Cheetham .] Mad they some doubts as to the probable result ?— 
Yes, serious doubts were entertained all along with respect to the Surat branch 
of that line ; the projectors of the Baroda scheme were content to undertake the 
line from Surat to Ahmedabad. 

39°6. It has been stated in evidence that the local Government reported 
favourably of the whole scheme three years before it obtained the sanction of the 
Home Government ?—The Government of India had reported favourably on it, 
but a further letter was written on the subject, and there was great hesitation in 
this country in selecting it; that hesitation arose from the doubts I have mentioned 
entertained by engineers on both sides. 


Colonel Pears , called in ; and further Examined. 

39 ° 7 - Chairman .] ARE you of opinion that a Government engineer when 
brought under the departmental system into contact with the railway officers, has 
greater difficulties to contend with than he would have under the contract system ? 
— I think he has undoubtedly. 

3908. Explain why?—Under the contract system the whole of the work is let 
upon certain covenants with the contractor, and he is bound under certain le‘»al 
penalties to execute the whole of the work in good quality and upon certain 
terms. The engineers of the railway company have nothing to do but to inspect 
his work, and they are not responsible for all the details, whereas under the 
departmental system the engineers are in the position of contractors, and they are 
responsible for the expedition with which the work is executed, and for the quality 
of the work itself. This being done under the eye of the Government officer, 
they are much more sensitive to observations upon the work they have executed. 
The officers of the railway company are placed with regard to the Government 
officer exactly in the same position as the contractor’s people are placed with 
regard to the railway engineers on the other railways of India, where there have 
been disputes between these two parties. Some misunderstanding and some 
irritation have been caused in the Madras Presidency, by the supervision of 
the Government officer over the railway engineer’s own work. 

3909. Have you any particular point to which you would wish now to refer, 
arising out of the evidence given before this Committee ?—* I am not at all 
acquainted with the opinion that the Committee may have formed upon certain 
points, but there are some questions in regard to which the Madras Government 
are charged with delay, for which I think I can show they are not responsible. 
First, with respect to the salt traffic, and then with regard to the advance of money, 
Mr. Walker’s evidence seems to be on the latter point strangely at variance with 
facts officially recorded, and which I have before me. 

3910. You refer to the construction of a branch line in immediate connexion 
with the Government salt depot ?—Yes. 

3911. On which it has been stated that a different gauge was required by the 
Government to be laid down to that which is upon the railway?—I do not 
know whether the Government required it, because it was my final report before 
I left India, and their decision upon it was not communicated to me. 

3912. Communications, I suppose, are still going on on that subject?—I do 
not know what they have done, but I must observe that the suggestion of a 
different gauge arose out of the fact that it was not a branch line as it is usually 
understood, and that it was not a line upon which the railway were to establish 
a station to receive goods, but a railway was to be constructed by the Government, 
which the Railway Company refused to work, except under certain conditions 
which would interfere with the freedom of the trade. I wish that to be clearly 
understood, because I know the inconvenience of what is called the break of 
gauge as weli as any man. 

3913. Colonel Sykes.] What were the orders from the home authorities to 
you when you were appointed consulting engineer to the Madras Government? 
—There were different orders at various times, but they all insisted upon close 
and strict supervision. I have an extract from an order to the following effect: 

0.61. Mm “ The 


Sir Jantes 

K. c. b. 


21 June 1858. 


Colonel Pears. 




274 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel Pears. 


21 June 1858. 


“The Government officers should be required to exact the utmost economy 
consistent with perfect security and efficiency, in the original construction of 
the line, and in ail buildings and works of every description connected with it. 
The line, when opened for the conveyance of passengers and goods, should in 
like manner be managed with the closest attention to economy in the working 
expenses, rather than"with a regard to the high rate of speed and frequency of 
dispatch which are the practice an English lines.” 

3914. Was it considered your duty to exercise a general control over the pro¬ 
ceedings of the Railway Company, and to audit their accounts ?—Yes. 

3915. Were your audits such as are understood generally in the Government 
service ?—The duties of an auditor in India are to scrutinise the expenditure of the 
several departments under him, in minute detail, with reference to the orders of 
the Government, and to the vouchers produced in their support. 

3916. What view did you take of your duties in that respect?—I considered 
my duty as auditor much the same as that of other auditors in the country ; Gut 
that opinion was somewhat modified afterwards, and I laid down clearly my view’s, 
which I believe were pointed out in a report to the Government, which is in one 
of the printed volumes, dated some time in the latter part of the year 1 855 ; in that 
I gave it as my opinion, that as the railway agent had a large establishment, he 
should be looked to to check the details, and that I should look to the general 
expenditure. 

3917. Chairman .] You recommended those modifications in consequence of 
finding that the system of more minute supervision was not working well ?—That 
was not my reason ; but I found that the business was beyond my office, and that 
there was no reason why the Government should maintain a large office where the 
agent had one in which he could do all that work. 

3918. Colonel Sykes.] I believe that the chief engineer complained that the 
works were delayed for want of funds, and that land was not made over to the 
Company without delay ; did the Railway Board support him in any of those 
statements?—1 think only in one case; that one case has been mentioned by 
Mr. Walker; but the facts, as stated by him, appear to be at variance with the 
official record. The advances asked for were not refused ; they were delayed a 
few days in consequence of the Government officer being up the country, and off 
the post-road. In the next place, so far from the works being delayed at all, I have 
the declaration of the agent himself, to this effect: I wrote to him thus: — “It 
appears clear, from Mr. Collins’ letter, that he has been hampered atone time by 
want of funds, and you are requested therefore to state whether this circumstance 
is to be attributed to the fact of any application from you for advances for that dis¬ 
trict not having been complied with.” His answer is, “ I am not prepared to state 
decidedly how far the want of funds adverted to by Mr. Collins is to be attributed to 
advances having been withheld by Government.” Instead of the agent being 
hampered by the want of funds, he had an unusually large supply on hand at the 
time they were complaining of a difficulty arising from a want of funds; he had 
three lahks of rupees on the 1st of September, at the time it was said that the coolies 
were all running away from want of funds. Mr. Walker states that the infor¬ 
mation afforded by the Government officer did not appear satisfactory; it was not 
usual, I believe, for the Railway Board to see the explanations, but if the Com¬ 
mittee will allow me, I w ill give a sort of summary of my explanation on that 
occasion. It appears from their own correspondence, and from their own reports, 
that whereas they stated that in district No. 4, they had had the greatest difficulty 
in collecting coolies on account of large public works being executed in North 
Arcot, and that on the 10th September they could not retain them for want of 
funds; they had 18,000 rupees in hand in district No. 4, on the 1st September. 
At the end of that month, the Board observed that we unhesitatingly sanctioned a 
second advance, showing the difficulty and necessity there must have been 
before, whereas, in consequence of my placing confidence on the agents’discretion 
they had in hand on the 1st October 800,000 rupees, the usual balance that they 
ought to be satisfied with being 200,000 or 300,000 rupees. I was up-country 
and out of the way when they sent a second demand, and I sanctioned it without 
the usual inquiry. 

3919. Colonel Are you prepared to suggest any change in existing 

arrangements, whereby the affairs of the Company in Madras may be conducted 
in a more expeditious and satisfactory manner ?—I think the only change I have 
suggested is, that of having some absolute authority on the part of the Railway 

Company 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 275 

Company at Madras such as a Board, or it might be an individual with full 
powers. 

3920. Chairman .] That is your view still, having heard the opinion of Sir 
James Melvill with regard to Boards, that he prefers the communications passing 
through an individual agent r—1 he fault I find is, in the individual agent being 
hampered by want of influence and authority ; the best plan would be°to have a 
body entrusted with full power, which should carry weight with the Local Govern¬ 
ment. 

39‘ 2 *- To carry that out, would it be necessary to delegate a considerable por¬ 
tion of the powers possessed by the Board in London to the Board in Madras?— 
It would. It seems to work very well in Bombay, but how far that may be 
attributable 10 their having more power than our individual agents, I do not 
know. 

3922. How far do you think the Board at home would be willing to delegate 
its powers to the Board in India?—I do not know. 

39 2 3 - Would not the delegation of some of the powers possessed by the railway 
Boards in England, to the local Board in Madras, or other parts of India, imply 
a concession on the part of the Home Government of a portion of that super¬ 
vision which they exercise over the railway proceedings by the presence of the 
ex officio director at the railway Boards in England?—It would. 

3924. How far would they be willing to yield a portion of that supervision 
which they at present possess ?—I cannot speak to that, but I think it would be 
well if the Home Government were to resign into the hands of the local authori¬ 
ties everything connected with the execution of the works, and with the manage¬ 
ment and detail of the railways in India. 

3925. From all the evidence you have given, you appear to be eminently 
favourable to the exercise of a considerable amount of Government control over 
the railway operations?—Yes. 

3926. Can you make the two plans accord one with the other?—I am speak¬ 
ing of their yielding to the local Government; it has been found that the Home 
Government notice all proceedings with regard to railways, as much as they do 
the proceedings in their own department; may approve or disapprove of every 
trifling matter; matters relating to the surveyors, European skilled labour, office 
servants, and all the proceedings of the local Government are brought under the 
cognisance of the Government at home, and sometimes overruled by them. 

3927. Colonel Sykes.] Did the local Government or the Court of Directors 
disapprove of your proceedings in regard to the advances of money?—Nevei;. 

3928. Has the Court of Directors generally approved of the proceedings in 
the railway department at Madras?—Yes, with very rare exceptions indeed ; I 
can remember but one exception, which was in the case of the suspension of the 
works near Salem. 

3929. What were the principles which guided you in selecting works for pub¬ 
lication in the annual report?—I took the orders of the Government, which were 
ah\avs kept on a file, and I marked off, to be copied, those that related to subjects 
of any importance ; I handed them over to the manager of the office, with directions 
that he should prepare for the press every paper having reference to that par¬ 
ticular subject. 

3930. Were any of the letters of the Railway Board to the agent, reflecting 
upon the proceedings of the agent, published in the papers ?—To the best of my 
information and belief they were not. 

3931 . Was there any suppression?—None; it was never thought of. As that 
subject has been touched upon, I should like to read a correspondence that took 
place. The Railway Board, in a letter that rather surprised me, referred to a 
letter of their traffic’manager in these words : “ In reply to the request made in 
your letter, No. 203, on the representation of the traffic manager, that the Govern¬ 
ment having published a part of the correspondence on the subject of the tariff of 
rates and fares, his letter to you of the 14th October last, in reply to Colonel Pears, 
should also be published/’ I think that implied a disposition on the part of the 
Government to withhold from publication that letter of the 14th of October. I merely 
wish to show how this charge of suppressing of correspondence was encouraged by 
the Railway Board without due inquiry. Being away from Madras, in September 
1856, I had written to the agent to say that I was going to publish certain corre¬ 
spondence, and that if he had any reply to make to my last report it was but fair 
that I should have it before publication. The agent wrote to me in this form, deini- 

o6] mm 2 officially, 


Colonel Pears. 


21 June 1858. 



276 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Colonel Pears . officially, “ I have had the pleasure to receive your note from Paulghaut yester- 
—- day, and think the better plan will be not to wait for any reply from either Mr. 

21 June 1858. Fletcher or myself to your report upon the tariff rates, but to complete what is 

being printed ; indeed the matter is in a measure taken out of our hands by the 
directors of the company." After that had been written to me we received this 
letter from the Railway Board, insinuating that that report had been excluded from 
publication by the Government. 

3932. It was not the fact then?—It was not the fact. I do not think that the 
Railway Board knew it was not the fact; but there is an implication that there 
had not been fair play, which was far from my intention. 

3Q33. Do you consider that the proceedings of the Railway Board were 
influenced by anything derived from your reports, or from their own agent?— 
They decided all their ow n affairs upon the reports of their agent; my reports, 
I have been told by the chairman, as a general rule, did not come before them. 

3934. You took an interest in obtaining sleepers, did you not?—Yes; two 
years before the railway company began to work I had made a great deal of 
inquiry, and I gave all the information I collected to the agent. 

3933. What was the system you adopted wdth regard to the proposed supply ? 
—It w'as by advertisement and by contract. 

3936. Did Mr. Sullivan, of the civil service, exert himself in this matter ?— 
Very much. 

3937. What induced him to do so?—Before the railway company commenced 
operations, I had frequently made inquiry of Mr. Sullivan, who was a man singu¬ 
larly conversant with the native languages and the people, who gave me great 
assistance in collecting information as to woods and sleepers ; he began by col¬ 
lecting samples from the various jungles about him, and it ended in his exerting 
himself to make large supplies out of pure zeal for the undertaking; I believe he 
collected, up to the time I left India, between 30,000 or 40,000 of the best 
sleepers they had on the line. 

3938. Should you have had any objection to the railway company doing the 
same thing by their own servants?—Not any; I proposed that they should have 
an establishment, and work certain forests near Salem. I did not propose it 
officially. 

3939. You had no objcctian?—Not the least. 

3940. Had you any objection to their purchasing sleepers offered for sale ?— 
I had; it was tried one year and failed, and it seemed to me to interfere with 
the contract system. The engineer wrote to me to say that at the expiration of 
one year he had collected only about eight or ten per cent, of the supply found 
by the contractor. It was evident that the contracts were falling off, and I saw 
reason to believe that the two systems could not stand together. 

3941. Was there not, for some time, a man employed by the railway com¬ 
pany especially to provide sleepers ?—There \vas. 

3942. With what result?—It was a failure altogether. 

3943. It did not succeed ?—It did not. 

3944. Was there delay in passing the tenders, or in the subsequent payment 
for sleepers delivered ? — Never, so far as the Government officers were concerned. 

3945. What was the ordinary system of transacting business in your office ?— 
I generally disposed of the majority of’letters that came up to me from the agent 
on my own authority. I should think nine-tenths of the business was so disposed 
of, and such as it was necessary to place before the Government were submitted 
with my report without any delay; all those cases which I disposed of myself 
were reported monthly to the Government in an abstract form and approved by 
them. 

3946. Had you any arrears ?—None. 

3947. You had no arrears of correspondence ?—None, except in a case of any 
long report I had to write upon any special subject. 

3948. Had you cause to complain of delays that arose in the railway com¬ 
pany’s offices?—Frequently. 

3949. Did their own Board in England complain ?—I think they did. 

3950. Do you recollect any delay connected with tenders for sleepers?—Yes, 
I remember in one instance 1 inquired the reason why a tender bearing a certain 
date was not received by me for about three months afterwards. I think there 
were other instances, but I only remember that one. 

3951* Were there any complaints that the railway engineers could not make 

bricks 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


bricks for want of funds ?—I do not remember any ; but I remember that in the 
latter pan of 1856 and spring of 1857, when the station buildings were standing 
still, an excuse was made that they could not get bricks. There was no complaint 
of a want of funds. r 


3952 . Irrespective of statements furnished at the time of application had you 
any means of knowing the exact state of their funds ?—I had a balance-sheet • it 
was three or four months in arrear, because it could not be prepared until the 
accounts for the month were sanctioned by the Government. 

3953 * la the periodical statements recorded in your office for the last five years, 
does it appear that there was any instance of an insufficient balance in hand ?—I 
do not believe there is a single instance of it. 

3954 * I* 1 your remarks on progress reports you frequently pronounced it on 
certain portions unsatisfactory, whilst you spoke in a more encouraging tone in 
your occasional inspection reports ; do you observe any inconsistency in this ?— 
Not the least. I was always glad to remark favourably when I found that upon 
the whole the progress had been good. I might have been led to speak in a more 
encouraging tone than I otherwise should; but, as a general rule, I think there 
was no inconsistency. 

3955 * Hid not the Railway Board, acting upon the opinion of their consulting 
engineer in London, frequently remark on the inconvenience and delay arising 
from insufficient information being sent from India with the requisition for stores ? 
Yes, they did. 

3956. Have you been anxious throughout the conduct of your office to act with 
that suavity and gentlemanly bearing which was necessary to insure harmony, at 
the same time that it was necessary as a part of your public duty to exercise a 
strict supervision ?—I hope I have. I think a reference to the annual reports 
will speak for itself, and that if there was any want of courtesy or consideration 
in the mode of writing, it has not been on my side. 

3957 • So far as you are yourself personally concerned, do you feel that you 
have always been actuated by that feeling ?—Certainly I have. 

3958. You are not aware that you have any cause for supposing that there 
was anv personal feeling in the matter ?—Certainly not; I was extremely anxious 
for the success of the work, whether it was the work of the railway company 
or of the Government. 

3959. Have you always been on terms of cordiality with the railway officials ? 
—Always. 

3960. Chairman.'] When you state that on the 1st of October the railway 
agent had three lakhs of rupees in hand, are you not aware that that was merely 
an advance to that date on account, and that the cash in hand may have been, 
arid no doubt was, considerably less ?—Nothing of the kind ; it was the actual 
balance, they never made advances; I have it on their own report, which is 
framed after the Government have sanctioned the expenditure. 

3961. You make that answer after a careful comparison of the reports subset 
qucntly handed in, with the amount of balance then in their hands ?—Yes ; after 
they have submitted the accounts from the agent, I send them to the Govern¬ 
ment, and the Government sanctions them ; a part of my own system was that 
every month the railway authorities should be relieved from all anxiety upon the 
subject of accounts. 

3962. How do you account for the discrepancy that appears to exist between 
the calculations and the actual accounts ?—The agent had been told that when 
the money came into his hands he was responsible, but it was his practice to hand 
it all over to the engineer; he did what he liked with it, and he may have 
thought that he required more money in one district than in another. He put the 
whole of it in bills, and very often it was locked up in one place when he required 
it in another. In this particular case when they said the men were all running 
away, they could not give any satisfactory explanation ; they said they had made 
advances to Mr. Sullivan. 

3963. You admit that when the engineer left India the accounts were brought 
up to the smallest conceivable fraction ?—I never had a doubt of that, but I had 
occasion to find fault with this, that it took eight months to render the accounts. 
I do not find so much fault with the chief engineer, as with the agent not doing 
what he undertook to do. 

3964. It is quite possible that that may have occurred from the chief engineer 
having everything thrown upon him, even the duties of an accountant ?—The 

O.61. MM 3 chief 


Colonel Pears. 


21 June 1858. 



2 7 S 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Colonel Pears. 


21 June 1858. 


chief engineer I always thought had more to do than he ought to have, but it 
was his own doing, as he centralised in himself the whole of the executive duties; 
a few months before I came aWay the~agent persuaded the chief engineer to allow 
him to apply for several other engineers, in order to take the inspecting duties of 
certain districts off the chief engineer’s hands; he consented to it, but upon cer¬ 
tain conditions. I am told those conditions have not been fully complied with. 

3965. The fact of the chief engineer undertaking that large amount of duty, 
more in fact than you think he is able to perform, is a strong argument in favour 
of increasing his staff?—Yes; there was no difficulty about his accountants, or 
any persons of that kind. 

3966. Were not the letters of the Railway Board to their agent, containing 
censures on their chief engineer, published by the Madras Government in a 
volume entitled, “Despatches of the Court of Directors in the Railway Depart¬ 
ment”?—They were printed for the use of the department, and so far as my 
knowledge goes, never went out of the department; I believe 25 copies were 
printed, and to the best of my belief they have not been published to this 
moment. 

3967. Are we clearly to understand that these despatches to which I have re¬ 
ferred are not to be regarded as public documents ?—They have not been published 
in any shape. 

3968. They have been issued in a printed form ?—They have been printed ; 
but they have been published by the railway companies themselves. 

3969. Mr. A. H. Baring.'] I suppose the subordinate engineers never saw them ? 
—I should think not; I believe there is a note at the foot of the title-page, that 
they are printed oniy for the use of the department. 

3970. Chairman.] After the general experience you have had, and after hearing 
the evidence which has been adduced before us, showing the feeling of vexation 
that has existed in the minds of certain railway officials, do you think that if you 
were to return to your original office you could conduct the functions of the 
Government consulting engineer, maintaining an effective check over the expen¬ 
diture, and at the same time in a manner which would conduce to more har¬ 
monious action than appears to have existed?—That is a question rather difficult 
to answer ; but I will put the Committee in possession of my opinion on the 
subject; my belief is, that I have had the task, if I may use such an expression the 
better to illustrate my meaning, of putting the harness on. I believe that the officer 
who succeeds me is carrying out my system, and I see no reason why it should 
not work well hereafter. Upon first starting a system of that sort, we had about 
25 engineers, all collected from different parts of the world, none of whom had 
had their proceedings subjected to this minute control; the carrying out of this 
constant supervision led to a great deal of vexation and irritation, but the system 
is working well, I believe, now. My injunctions to my successor were these, that 
I believed the system would work well, and that I hoped he would not change 

. anything without mature consideration; but that, when he had considered the 
propriety of changing anything, he was not to abstain from doing so out of 
delicacy to me. 

3971. You have used the phrase “ minute controlare you of opinion that 
minute control in matters of detail is necessary to protect the interest of the 
Government ?—I believe it will be found I have stated in my reports that the 
possession of minute knowledge is necessary under our system in Madras to 
exercise a general control. I was in possession of minute details, but I did not 
check them. With the engineer’s works I could not check their proceedings 
unless I had minute knowledge of all they were doing, but I did not often check 
the details. I will give an illustration of the system I pursued : when a bridge was 
being built, the chief engineer having estimated it at 100,000 rupees, I rarely 
made any remark while it was going on unless I saw that he was giving a great 
deal of money for his materials, and so on ; when it was finished I had the details 
before me, and if he had exceeded the estimate I was able to show the Govern¬ 
ment in what he had exceeded it. 

3972. The whole question before us at the present moment lies in two expres¬ 
sions ; I object to the words “ minute control,” and I draw a distinction between 
minute and general control. What I want to know from you is, whether you 
think that minute control on the part of the Government consulting engineer is 
necessary to control the expenditure, and whether that minute control must not 
necessarily produce a certain amount of want of harmony ?—I can only answer 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 279 

that question in this way, that a knowledge of details is necessary to exercise a 
wholesome control: but it depends upon the judgment of the officers concerned 
how far he shall interfere with minute details. If it appears that on some few 
occasions the Government officer has interfered with things that are too minute, it 
must be remembered that on 100 occasions he has passed over points for the very 
same reason. 

3973. Mr. C. Bruce,'] Is it your opinion that more minute control was exercised 
when this system was first started than is now necessary, and that all your past 
proceedings have tended to facilitate the entire action of inspection by the local 
government over the railway authorities: — I think so; both the agent and myself 
were agreed in this, that we should endeavour to get them all into a system of 
accuracy and economy similar to that pursued under the Government works. 

3974. That could not have been done wdthout, in the first instance, a minute 
control ?—I believe not. 

3975. Chairman.] You agree with me, that the general inference that we may 
draw is, that the railway companies have no objection to Government; we have 
their authority for saying it is valuable ; but they object to their freedom of action 
being impeded by too great minuteness and details ?—The railway company in 
the Madras Presidency has scarcely ever made any remonstrance; we have been 
in collision lately with regard to the traffic operations, and that has been the rock 
upon which we have lately split. I have reason to believe that the railway 
Board looked to the Madras Government almost entirely to exercise a control 
over their operations, but when we attempted to regulate the traffic operations they 
objected. 

3976. Were you not aware before you came to England that complaints had 
been made of your supervision ?—Only as regarded traffic operations. There are 
none that I am aware of in the engineer department, except the one remonstrance 
against the advances. The Committee probably do not desire to see them, but I 
must say our proceedings were, I considered, in accordance with the first instruc¬ 
tions of the Court of Directors. 

3977. Mr. C. Bruce.] After having heard the objections that have been made, 
your own opinion is that there was no undue interference that could have been 
avoided ?—I think, in the early part of the proceedings there may have been two 
or three occasions upon which I might have erred, but in other matters I do not 
see anything brought forward that I have to regret. 

3978. Mr. Cheetham.] The difficulty w ould arise to some extent from the fact 
of the engineering officers never having been subjected to such a supervision ? 

I think so. 

397Q. Mr. C. Bruce.] Do you think that the progress of the railways has 
been in any serious way interfered with by the supervision ?—I do not think that 
in Madras it can be shown to have interfered with it for one hour, except in one 
case, where I sought to get better gradients on the line. 

3980. Mr. Cheetham.] Before you were appointed to the office of consulting 
engineer in Madras, I believe you had been consulted with regard to the general 

survey ?—Yes. , r , c 

3081 Do you still think that it would have been better for the progress of 
railway construction in India that it should have been undertaken by the Govern¬ 
ment ?—Yes. 


Colonel Pears. 


21 June 1858. 


o,6u 


M M 4 





2$0 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Jovis, 24 ° die Junii, 1858 . 


MEMBERS PRESENT. 


Hon. H. G. Liddell, 
Mr. A. H. Baring. 
Mr. F. G. Baring. 
Mr. H. A. Bruce. 


Mr. C. Bruce 
Mr. Cheetham. 
Mr. Crawford. 
Col. Sykes. 


The Hon. H. G. LIDDELL, in the Chair. 


Mr. David Innes Noad, called in ; and further Examined. 

Mr. D.I. Noad. 3982. Mr. T. G. Baring]. IN your answer to Question 330, there occurs this 
-paragraph: “Mr. Stephenson returned to England in June 1846. We imme- 

24 June 1858. diately communicated this circumstance to the Court, and again expressed an 
anxiety to enter into a due discussion of the question. On the 5th July 1846, 
having heard nothing from the Court, we proposed distinct terms upon which we 
should be prepared to undertake the work.*’ Are you aware of a letter written 
by the secretary to you on the 30th June 1846?—I am aware of that letter, and 
in giving that answer I should have added, “ having heard nothing of a practical 
character.” I wish to correct my evidence to that extent. 

3983. The letter acknowledging the receipt of yours, states, “ that the Court 
have reason to expect at an early period to receive from the Government of India 
a report of the result of the investigation which, under the Court’s instructions, 
has been instituted with respect to probability and best means of providing for 
railroad communication in India, when the Court will lose no time in taking the 
whole subject into consideration ?—That was the letter. 

3984. So that the delay arose in consequence of not having received an official 
despatch from India, containing the report of the Government upon Mr. Sims’ 
report in India ?—Their hesitation to enter into a discussion of terms with us at 
that period, no doubt, was owing to their not having received the official report 
of that commission. 

Sir Macdonald Stephenson , called in ; and further Examined. 

Sir Macdonald 3985. Chairman.] ON the last occasion we were entering upon the question of 
Stephenson. Mr. Jackson’s tender in 1848, and I wish to proceed with that. What would 
have been gained by the acceptance of Mr. Jackson’s tender in 1848?—The com¬ 
pletion of the first section by March 1851, instead of February 1855, nearly four 
years gained in time, and the consequent earlier completion of the entire line. 

3986. That is your decided opinion ?—It is. 

3987. Who made the contracts? — They were fully considered, in all their 
bearings, by Mr. Turnbull the chief engineer, who prepared all the plans and 
specifications, by Colonel Baker, the Government engineer, by Lord Dalhousie, 
who gave much attention to the subject, and by me, and amended, until we were 
all satisfied of their being such as we could recommend and accept. 

3988. Some little apprehension may exist in the public mind in consequence 
of an answer given by Sir James Melvill the other day. There is only one con 
tractor, I think, who has not failed upon your line. I should like to know his 
same ?—Three are still employed who have not failed. 

3989. What are their names?—Messrs. Hunt & Elmsley, Messrs. Norris & 
Co., and Messrs. Burn & Co. 

3990. I had put that question to you to prevent any misapprehension which 
might arise in consequence of answers given by Sir James Melvill to Question 
3749 and 3750, i n which it is stated that Messrs. Bray & Elmsley are the only 
contractors who have not failed in Bengal. There is an inaccuracy, I believe, in 
that statement?—There is; and it is due to the other contractors to mention 
that. 


3991. Had 






SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 2S1 

% 

399 1 * Had the railway companies’ engineers generally any practical knowledge Sit Macdonald 
or contiact work, so as to have executed it themselves without the intervention Stephenson. 
of contractors ?—Certainly not; they had not been selected with such expec¬ 
tation, and though unexceptional as civil engineers, and in all respects able and 2 4 June 1858. 
qualified men ; they had, except in one or two cases, never been contractors’ 
engineers, or engaged on contract work. 

3992. Then you preferred to act upon the experience of European practice 
rather than to try the experiment, which has usually failed in this country, of a 
company being their own contractors?—Undoubtedly. 

3993- What were the views of the Railway Boards upon the question of those 
contracts ?—Acknowledging the inseparable delays of the home-supervising 
machinery—aware of the fact that no English contractors would send or 
go out except on the certainty of very large profits—aware of the Govern¬ 
ment view from the experience of the rejection of the first moderate tender 
submitted, viz., Mr. Jackson’s—they had fully approved of a similar course 
adopted by me on a former and similar occasion. The refusal of English 
contractors to send cut to India previously rendered it scarcely possible 
for them to tender in England for works of which they had had no personal 
knowledge, either of their ow n or of their agents, even if the opportunity had 
been again offered them, while the delay in any case would have been serious. 

Within the last few clays another Indian railway company has received tenders 
from English contractors, and rejected them all, the prices being so much above 
w hat the authorities would sanction. 

3994. I asked Sir James Melvili (3746) whether considering the profits of 
the contractor, and the large expenses likely to arise from the growing up of 
establishments under the departmental system, and setting one against the other, 
he would still give the preference in favour of the contract system. He said he 
thought he would, but that be wished to see both tried. Do you agree in that 
opinion so expressed that the expense arising from the large establishment, 
necessary when a railway company construct their own works, would in the end 
lead to even greater expense than the profits of the contractor?—I did try both 
plans, and the particular case in which we did it ourselves, in the North West 
Provinces, was certainly by no means successful ; the person employed being one 
of the Government’s own engineers, the Government were anxious to see it tried 
upon those works. In Bengal, Mr. Sibley lias been successful. 

3995. Do you consider the guarantee principle to be financially onerous to the 
East India Company ?—It is in no way onerous to the East India Company, and 
the explanation is given fully in Mr. Ereshfield’s letter, dated 20th January, and 
addressed to Colonel Sykes, the Chairman of the Court of Directors. 

3996. Mr. C/ieetham.'] Does that letter upon the subject of the guarantee enter 
into the comparative mode of raising money by way of loan and otherwise r— 

There was a question raised as to whether the East India Company were not com¬ 
promising themselves by the guarantees, and Mr. Freshfield wrote the letter to 
remove misapprehension. 

3997. Chairman.~\ What is your opinion of the relative advantages of the 
Ganges Valley line over the short line as originally proposed?—I recommended 
the direct or short line with branches, in preference to the circuitous line, for the 
following reasons : saving of 100 miles of carriage of all goods beyond Benares. 

Greater expenditure and heavier works on the circuitous or long line. The 
gradients of the direct line were not such as to w arrant the preference of the 
circuitous line, the only steep gradient, 1 in 61, being limited to 2 £, 1 h, and 
4 = 8 miles with levels between, of b and | miles on a line of 450 miles,—on a 
trial survey, and as far better gradients were sure to be found. Branches could 
be made less expensively than the trunk, and according to the traffic. The com¬ 
pany yielded the point to get something done and avoid delay, as the circuitous 
line will be equally remunerative, and a direct line will be made hereafter. The 
tunnels are 1 of 1 J miles, 1 of 2 i, in all 4 miles (section of line submitted); the 
summit level is 1,280 feet above Calcutta. The authorities both at home and 
in India, in their anxiety to do what was best, were sometimes misled by strongly 
expressed opinions of parties who, not being conversant with the engineering view 
of the case, advised on too limited information. One of them declaring the 
circuitous line to be so easy of construction, and to present so little difficulty that 
engineers would scarcely be required to construct it. 

0.61. Nn 3998. What 



28a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

I 

Sir Macdonald 3998. What was the steepest gradient on the Ganges Valley line ?— One in 
Stephenson. 163, I think. 

- 3999- Did you experience great difficulty with inland transport of materials 

24 June 1858. for your railway?-—It is attended with great difficulty. With a desire to use the 

means of the country, and to economise the cost of transport, native boats were em¬ 
ployed, almost any number are available, and contracts were made with one of 
the most respectable and energetic houses in Calcutta, who had great experience 
in river transport, and agencies at every 20 or 30 miles along the river, to aid or 
change stranded boats. I always intended to have used steam by the hire of 
local vessels, when the time arrived at which, if sufficient materials had not 
reached the Upper Provinces, it would be indispensable. My illness, and leaving 
India, interfered with this course, but it is now desirable that no time should be 
lost in providing steam transport, and arrangements are in progress. 

4000. I gather from that answer that you endeavoured to employ the labour 
and materials of the country as far as was practicable?—Invariably. For timber 
and sleepers I encouraged the opening up of the forests of Assam, of Gorruckpore, 
of Rangoon, of Moulmein, of the Mahanuddy, and Balasore, and induced con¬ 
tractors to undertake to supply the company from whatever other sources could 
be made available. Much good timber was obtained, much useful information 
acquired as to the resources of the country, and the relative value of the woods. 
The manufacture of iron also received all possible encouragement, and the results 
will be apparent in a few years. Producers of native iron were urged to supply 
whatever they could make of a description the company could ure, and one house 
obtained a grant of land on the line between Mirzapore and Jubbulpore, and 
undertook to establish ironworks there. I gave them a conditional contract for 
all the chairs required on that line, the quality to be as good as obtained from 
England, and price about half what imported iron would cost us. 

4001. Your duties were onerous. Were you supported by the authorities ?— 
The company had one line of 121 miles in active operation, and extensions of 
about 700 more in course of construction, besides surveys of further extensions 
in progress ; and every transaction connected with the whole of these operations 
passed through my hands. I never permitted a day’s delay in the office ; syste¬ 
matic arrangements and a willing and able staff will always prevent it. I have 
acknowledged the co-operation of the authorities invariably. I feel assured that 
the wishes and intention of the Court of Directors, of the Board of Control, and 
of the Government oflndia, and of their representatives, have been unimpeachable, 
and that their endeavours have been uniformly directed to doing what they con¬ 
scientiously believed to be for the best, but the spirit of the contracts with the 
railway companies has been in the supervision disregarded, and a more correct 
interpretation of this clause in the contracts, is what is now most required. 

4002. What is your opinion as to the expediency and policy of extending 
the railway system us regards probable cost and returns?—That every induce¬ 
ment should be offered to direct surplus capital to the construction of Indian 
railways ; that their average cost, one with the other, will not exceed one-third 
the average of all the English lines, and that there is not one of the Indian lines 
of those already sanctioned, and of those proposed, which will not return far 
more than 5 per cent, guaranteed. 

4003. I should like to ask you upon what you base that opinion in regard to 
the profits. Do you base it upon the statistic information you have yourself 
derived in India?—I do. 

4004. And which, 1 believe, you compiled with great accuracy and great 
labour?—It would take up too much of the Committee’s time to go into details, 
but I am perfectly satisfied with the result. 

4005. I believe you obtained that information on your first visits to India 
previous to 1844 ?—I did. 

4006. I believe it was mainly upon the result of an examination of those 
statistics that the guarantee was given in the first instance by the Government ?— 
Entirely. 

4007. We may look upon you, in fact, to a great extent as the father of Indian 
railways?—As one of many co-operating in a good cause. 

4008. The East Indian has cost about 12,000/. per mile, I believe?—The 
actual cost of the line has not exceeded 8,500 /. per mile. The rolling stock, 

second 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 283 

second line of rails, creosoting apparatus, ferry boats, coke ovens, workmen ’s- 
houses, fencing, government duty, and terminal station, arrangements for the 
extended line are all provided in the larger sum. 

4009. What is meant by the item of Government duty ?—It is the Government 
duty upon materials, I believe they paid about 8,000 /. to the Government as 
import duty. 

4010. Mr. Cheetham .] To what extent of railway construction docs that 
answer of yours apply ?—It applies to the line now in active operation, 121 
miles. 

4011. Chairman.'] Do I understand that the whole of that 121 miles is laid 
with double rails?—Seventy-four miles only ; as far as the junction. 

4012. As far as Burdwan ? — A little beyond that to the junction. 

4013. Do you consider the telescopic principle of railway construction a sound 
principle?—If time is not an essential element it would be admissible; but on 
long lines the extra cost of transport is more than balanced by the earlier return 
of traffic upon the distant and unconnected sections, which being easiest of con¬ 
struction have been earliest opened. 

4014. Do you remember any particular cases of delay which you can distinctly 
trace as arising from the Government supervision?—I have no papers or docu¬ 
ments of any kind to show what has been so generally felt and acknowledged, 
but it. can scarcely need demonstration to prove what must be the tendency and 
effect upon the progress of works for every detail to be submitted to several 
tribunals before being acted upon. It vvas not the occurrence of individual cases, but 
the normal state of the entire arrangement. It permeated every transaction. With 
the permission of the Committee I will read an extract from a private letter received 
from Mr. Turnbull, dated 9th April 1858 : “ Affairs as regards Government con¬ 
trol seem to assume a more prominent aspect ; I say seem, only, for in point of 
actual working we have the same wearisome delays and criticisms, and returns called 
for, and orders of Government as to the size of platelayers’ bungalow's and sugges¬ 
tions as to the proper position of urinals at stations, &c., &c. Nevertheless Major 
Stracbey and others admit that they think the Government interference has been 
too great.” My remedy was soon taken, but.was irregular and could not be 
always adopted. I removed the offices to next door to Colonel Baker’s, put up 
a door in the partition garden wall, and gave him a key ; we met daily and as 
often as necessary, and settled in a very brief period the several questions which 
required it; I acted upon them at once, leaving them to go through the official 
routine of references afterwards. 

4015. To what cause do you attribute the delays which have occurred, and 
what do you consider to he the remedy for them?—A large and comprehensive 
measure insufficiently understood and appreciated —divided opinions of the sevetal 
ruling authorities—divided opinions among themselves—the novelty of the sub¬ 
ject— distraction arising from opposing views of different writers—varying money 
market—misapprehension of the relative position of the contracting parties — 
delays in prompt decision, and eventually misconception as to the intention, spirit, 
and practical course to be pursued in the exercise of the supervision both home 
and local. The intentions have been in all cases excellent, and are not impugned. 
The results have been affected by the causes stated. The remedy is simple and 
effectual. Place the supervision upon a rational basis, and all minor difficulties 
will speedily disappear. If the Committee w ill permit me, I will put in a memo¬ 
randum which, I think, will simplify very much the working of the supervision. 

4016. Do vou agree w ith the opinion expressed by Colonel Pears that the 
Indian Government could have executed these works quicker and cheaper than 
has been done by the Railway Company?—Certainly not; it would be at 
variance with the practice of the last fifty years. It is a simple assumption; in 
no single instance borne out by past experience, which is conclusive, if the past 
is any criterion of the future. 

4017. I do not understand you to complain of the Government, or of indi¬ 
viduals, but of the system itself, as one necessarily entailing delay ?—I know from 
personal communication that the authorities, both here and in India, have done 
all in their power to promote these works ; that they have individually devoted 
much time and labour to understand the subject, with this single object; and 
that in India Lord Dalhousie regarded these works as essential to'the carrying 

0.61. n N 2 out 


Sir Macdonald 
Stephenson. 


24 June 1858. 



284 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Si/- Macdonald out °1 his political arrangements, and gave them all the support in his power. 

Stephenson. The Government engineer, Colonel Baker, than whom a more upright, honour- 

- able, and hard-working man cannot be found in the service, did all he individually 

24 June 1858. could (under an unavoidably wrong system) to forward the works. No com¬ 
plaint can be made of any individual; the system alone is to blame. 

4018. The mass of information you acquired was, I believe, submitted to the 
Supreme Government in the first instance r—It was; and it induced them to 
publish in the “ Gazette ” the correspondence, with an intimation that it was a 
subject of so much public interest that they desired the greatest publicity. 

4019. Mr. Cheetham.] In communicating that information to the Indian Govern¬ 
ment, did you add your opinion that it was better to construct the railways in 
India by the aid of private companies rather than by Government?—I did. 

4020. Have you had any experience in the public works in India ; have you 
been attached to the Board of Public Works ?—No, I am not in the service of the 
East India Company. 

4021. You said that, contrasting what had been done on public works, you 
would come to the conclusion that it was better to hand over the construction of 
railways to private companies rather than to the. Government ?—The comparison 
was instituted between what Government could do, and what railway companies 
have done. I object to a comparison which cannot fairly.be made, but I com¬ 
pare the amount of money which Government have expended on public works 
within the last fifty years with what we have done in three or four years. 

4022. You consider that the progress made by Government on public works 
has been dilatory as compared with that upon private enterprises in this country ? 
— It has been acknowledged in the House of Commons. 

4023. Have not Government been compelled to enlist the aid of private com¬ 
panies by the offer of a guarantee ?—They were not able to obtain their assistance 
without a guarantee. 

4024. In what respect does that guarantee differ from the raising of a loan 
directly in the name of the Company ?—Perhaps the raising of a loan would be 
simpler and better; but they cannot raise a loan under their charter in this 
country. If an Act had been passed enabling them to borrow 7 money, they could 
have borrowed it probably on easier terms; but the conditions in the contracts, 
which were not understood by the public for some years, induced people to hesi¬ 
tate in embarking their money in railway undertakings in India. 

4025. Have you had your attention drawn to the amount of revenue received 
on lines which have been opened ?—All that I ever anticipated has been realised 
to the letter. 

4026. Is it not the fact that the Madras line has not paid the guarantee?—At 
present it has not done so, but being only a portion of a line it can scarcely be 
expected. I have no doubt in my own mind that the Madras line will pay 
remarkably well, as soon as there is a sufficient length of line opened. 

4027. That line and the East India line are the only two opened?—The Great 
Indian Peninsular have a portion opened. 

4028. Does that section of the Great Indian Peninsular pay its expenses?—I 
do not think it pays five per cent.; but I am speaking without personal knowledge 
upon the subject. 

4029. How does the line from Calcutta, of 121 miles, pay?—It is paying about 
seven per cent., and it carried last year upwards of a million passengers. The 
natives are carried in third-class covered carriages with comfortable seats, at the 
rate of three-eighths of a penny per mile, which is unparalleled in any part of the 
world. 

4030. Can you state at what comparative rate goods are carried upon that line ? 
—From one penny per ton upwards, according to description. Coal under a 
penny a ton. 

4031. From your long experience, and your observation of the lines so far 
opened, is it your opinion that, notwithstanding the opinion of Colonel Pears 
given before this Committee that railways would not pay the guarantee, they will 
pay?—I feel perfectly satisfied that all the Indian lines which have been selected 
with ordinary care and judgment will pay more than the five per cent, gua¬ 
ranteed. 

4032. Mr. T. G. Baring.] You stated, in your last examination, that previous 
to 1844, when distinct proposals were made to the Government, you would not 

say 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 285 

say that any delay had occurred in reference to conceding to companies the right of sir Macdonald 
making railways in India ?— -Certainly not, as regards any company then formed. Stephenson. 

4033. Do you consider that it was necessary for the Government, when that - 

proposal was made in a distinct form at the end of the year 1844, to make any 24 June 1858. 
inquiry in India as to the practicability of making railways?—The information 

obtained and brought home in 1844 was so full and sufficient, that had Govern¬ 
ment felt disposed to do so they could have acted upon it. 

4034. 1c ou think they could have determined upon a subject of such mag¬ 
nitude upon the information you offered, without sending out Mr. Simms to 
report ?—Yes, without waiting for him to confirm their practicability. 

4 ° 35 * You differ with Sir James Melvill on that point?—I have not read his 
evidence. 

4036. Mr. Simms having been sent out, his report was sent home, l believe, by 
the Government of India in May 1846 ?—Yes. 

4037. The Court of Directors considered the report in 1846, and made their 
proposal to the Board of Control, I believe, on the 4»h November 1846?—My 
memory will not serve me with reference to dates. 

4038. There was a difference of opinion, I think, between the Court of Directors 
and the Board of Control with reference to the terms, which lasted until July 
1847?—We have reason to believe that the disagreement between the Boards 
rather tended to occasion delay. 

4039. It is in evidence that, until July 1847, there was a difference regarding 
the guarantee ?—I cannot speak to dates. 

4040. Do you think that six months is a long period for a department to take 
to form their opinion upon the establishment of so gigantic a system as the railway 
system for India?—I am accustomed to exercise great dispatch myself, and 1 am 
particularly anxious not to charge any individuals or Boards with delay, but to 
attribute the evils especially to the system, and to secure dispatch for the future, 
by its amendment. 

4041. The commercial crisis in 1847 and 1848 was, I assume, the real cause 
of delay between July 1847, when the terms were agreed upon by the Board of 
Control and the Court of Directors, and 1849 '• —Undoubtedly. 

4042. It would have been impossible to raise money at that time?—It would 
have been very difficult. 

4043. You "said, I think, that considerable time would have been gained if 
Mr. Jackson’s tender had been accepted ?—Yes. 

4044. Is not that opinion of yours given on the assumption that Mr. Jackson 
would have executed his contract within the time in which he proposed to execute 
it?—Mr. Jackson’s character, and the works he has already executed, led us to 
believe that what he undertook would have been carried out; we felt satisfied 
that he could have done so. 

4045. It was on the assumption that he would have completed his con¬ 
tract within the time Yes; he would have been under penalties to execute it 
within the time. 

4046. You took also securities from the contractors you employed in Bengal r 
—For all advances made to them. 

4047. If a contractor fails in a work of that kind from unavoidable causes, of 
course you cannot be very hard upon him r—We ought not to be. 

4048. You say you contemplated entering into contracts for a large supply of 
chairs; have the parties with whom you have proposed to contract done anything 
towards establishing iron works?—I believe that the grant of the land has been 

withdrawn from them. Q . 0 

4049. How long were you the Company’s agent m BengalSince i& 45 - 

4050. You were there in 1853."—In 1853. 

4051. Are you aware ol the opinion of Lord Dalhousie, with respect to the 
working of the supervision system ?—I do not recollect it. 

4052* In his minute upon Railways, he makes the following observations.— 

“On the other hand, it does not necessarily follow that because the Government 
has become a party to the undertaking by guaranteeing a certain interest upon 
the capital expended, and has thus gained a right to closer interference with 
the operations of the railway company than usually or properly is allowed to a 
Government, that it will therefore interfere vexatiously or obstructively. It is 
not difficult to conceive that the Government by its officers may exercise a 

0.6,. NN3 Close 



286 


MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Sir Macdonald close and vigilant check upon the proceedings of the company without giving any 
Stephenson. just cause of complaint. Experience of the working of this system in the 

- Presidency of Bengal justifies the opinion I have expressed. The consulting 

*4 June 1858. engineer is placed in direct communication with the railway company, and has 
authority to settle all matters of detail or professional questions, unless they 
should be of great magnitude, without previous reference to the Government. 
Every precaution is taken to obviate delay in those cases in which the action of the 
Governor-general in Council is needed. 1 have every reason to believe that these 
measures have been successful, and that while the consulting engineer, directly 
and indirectly, exercises upon behalf of the Government a very wholesome con¬ 
trol indeed over the proceedings of the railway company, neither obstruction 
nor vexation, nor delay, can be justly attributed to the existence of a power of 
control in the hands of the Government.’’ You entirely disagree with that 
opinion of Lord Dalhousie’s?—I found an unworkable system and made it work¬ 
able, by assuming responsibility which I ought never to have been called upon to 
assume, but which I was not afraid to do because I was the managing director ot 
the company as well as the agent; for that reason I did not shrink from it. 

4053. I understand you to say that the system did not work ill on account of 
your having taken upon yourself to make it work well ?—In consequence of my 
having assumed a responsibility which I ought not to have been called upon 
to do. 

4054. Which was that you did everything by means of personal communica¬ 
tion ?—Yes. 

4055. Jn all matters of business is not personal communication the best means 
by which to carry out business, and then to place it upon record ?—No doubt. 

4056. Why should not your successor have pursued the same course ?—I believe 
he does so, and I think it is a system desirable to introduce generally. 

40,37. Although it may be necessary to receive in writing the sanction of the 
Government on a great many matters of minute detail, yet by means of personal 
communication between the agent and the consulting engineer, might not that be 
reduced entirely to a form r—It is not every one who feels disposed to assume a 
responsibility which is not exactly charged upon him. 

4058. You yourself, in communication with Colonel Baker, found no difficulty 
in working the system ?—I have already mentioned the course adopted. 

4059. Chairman .] From your own personal experience and knowledge of these 
matters, are you cf opinion that it is desirable to employ military engineers to 
superintend and control the action of civil engineers employed upon great public 
works of this description ?—It is so much a question of persons that I would rather 
not answer that ; but there can be no question of the annoyance which the civil 
engineers felt, as a general rule, on being controlled by military engineers. 

4060. Mr. T. G. Baring.'] Can you make any suggestion to the Committee as 
to bow it would be practicable to send out from this country civil engineers of 
sufficient weight and authority in their profession to control the railway works in 
India ?—I think it is better for the Government to solve their own difficulties than 
for me to say how they should do it. I should think there would be no difficulty 
if they desired to do it. 

4061. Supposing Mr. Hawkshaw, Mr. Rendel, and Mr. Stephenson, or men of 
that class, to be sent out merely to superintend, would it not be the ease that in 
four or five years they would be less experienced in recent improvements than a 
gentleman sent out from this country four or five years after they left it ?—You do 
not require that class of men. 

4062. What class of men would you take?--Such men as our own civil engi¬ 
neers ; our own chief engineers would answer equally well, and there would be no 
jealousy in consequence of one acting under another. 

4063. Take a man of the same position as your own chief engineers in India to 
act as the Government superintendent, of engineers upon railway operations, sup¬ 
posing him to be there for 10 years, and engineers to he sent out from England 
with much later knowledge than he had upon engineering matters, would there 
not be the same difficulty as you speak of with regard to military engineers; 
would not those sent out at a later period consider themselves superior to the 
engineer who had been in India 10 years ?—The proximity of India to England 
is such now as to admit of all parties coming over every three or four years to 

inform 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 287 

inform themselves ; qualified civil engineers would watch, and regularly inform 
themselves of the progress of engineering works at home. 

4064. Would that be sufficient?—For men acquainted with the subject it 
would be; and men are not deteriorated mentally, although they are physically, 
by a residence in India. 

4065. Is it your opinion that civil engineers should be sent out from this 
country to assist the Government?—I am perfectly satisfied that civil engi¬ 
neers could be obtained at a sufficiently moderate expense if the Government 
wished it. 

4066. Colonel Sykes.] Are you not aware that most of the engineers in the 
three Presidencies have had personal experience of railway engineering in 
England ?—Without any disrespect to them, I say that they have had a smatter- 
ng of it. 

4067. They have had the opportunity of inspecting works in England ?—The 
liberality of the Court has assisted them in that. 

4068. Are you not aware that the departments of public works are supplied 
with civil engineers who have been sent out by the Court of Directors ?-—I am 
aware of it. 

4069. Therefore the military engineers, although they might be incompetent 
themselves to give instruction in the details of railway engineering, would always 
be enabled to avail themselves of the knowledge of those subordinates sent out 
by the Court?—Drawing upon our subordinates for information which we ought 
to possess ourselves is an imperfect mode of meeting the question. 

4070. Chairman.'] Do you consider that the amount of knowledge that a man 
upon furlough can obtain by visiting the factories of sucii men as Mr. Stephenson 
and Mr. Rendel, and visiting railway works on his passage through the country, 
or passing even a certain number of months under the roof of a civil engineer, 
can give him that acquaintance with the subject which a long course of educa¬ 
tion such us that pursued by a civil engineer enables him to acquire?—Certainly 
not. 

4071. Do you expect satisfactory results from the establishment of engineering 
colleges at Calcutta and Roorkee ?—I cannot overrate the importance likely to 
result from them. 

4072. Have vou visited those establishments?—I have, but it is many years 
ago. 

4073. Mr, C. Bruce.] Is it not supposed that the natives have a peculiar apti¬ 
tude for acquiring knowledge of that kind ?—For the execution of public works 
they have, from their past habits. 

4074. I mean in the science of engineering generally ?—They are quick imita¬ 
tors ; they will copy plans and drawings, but they can never design. 

4075. Chairman.] Has the native in himself that zeal and energy, and that power 
of obtaining influence over other men that would lead you to think that he will 
ever take a prominent part as the originator of great engineering schemes?— 
Certainly not; there is no reason why the endeavour to teach them should not be 
continued ; it must produce oeneficial results. 

4076. Mr. C. Bruce.] Were there not, previous to our rule in India, works of 
great magnitude constructed by natives ?—By natives, but designed by foreign 
artists from Italy and elsewhere. It is clear, from the remains, that they have 
been executed by foreigners. 

4077. Colonel Sykes.] Do you say that the dome of the Tajh at Agra was 
lifted up into the air by foreigners ?— It was a foreign head that conceived, and 

native hands that worked it. . 

4078. What is your authority for that?—My opinion from observation. 

4079. Do you know that the East India Company possess records of the 
building ?—I give my replies with great deference to Colonel Sykes very supeiior 
knowledge. They are subjects to which he has paid great attention, and I have 
aiven but little, and therefore mv opinion is but of little importance. 

& 4080. Mr. Cheelham.] Is it not the fact that there are the remains of large 

works of irrigation existing in India?—No doubt. 

4081. In your opinion, were those the constructions of native talent.'—Very 

probably, as'they are simple. . . , 

4082. I11 the colleges to which you have referred, are there men training who 

' 0 .. . vrrmlrl 


Sir Macdonald 
Stephenson. 


24 June 1858. 



288 


MINUTES OE EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 


Sir MacDonald 
Stephenson. 


24 June 1858. 


Mr. H. B. Bruce. 


would be competent to take the management upon these railways, and to be drivers 
of engines?—I hope for such results from the beneficial measures which the East 
India Company are adopting to train them ; at the present moment, it is found 
that neither East Indians nor natives are to be trusted to drive a locomotive engine. 

4083. Have they begun to place under Englishmen natives for training?—In 
all the workshops every endeavour has been made to introduce and instruct them. 

4084. In the course of a few years we may expect to see natives employed as 
drivers of engines, and in other practical operations connected with the lines?— 
I hope to a greater extent than is the case at present. 

4085. Colonel Sykes.] Are you aware that the natives have recently, in the 
course of the mutiny, contrived to manufacture detonating powder?—And infernal 
machines, as I am informed. 

4086. Are you aware that they have had that chemical knowledge ? —I am 
not. 

4087. Chairman ,] Are there any remains of native engineering works that you 
have ever seen which are to be compared to the Ganges Canal ?—Certainly 
not. 


Mr. II. B. Bruce, called in ; and further Examined. 

4088. Chairman.] I refer you to Questions 3918 and 3951, of the last day's 
evidence, and I ask you whether you have any observations to make upon the 
statements of Colonel Pears in the answers to those questions?—Colonel Pears, 
in his answers, calls in question my assertion, and also that of Mr. Walker’s, that 
we were repeatedly short of funds, and especially alludes to one case which was 
brought before the Committee by Mr. Walker, to which I did not refer in regard 
to the state of the funds in September 185b. Colonel Pears says that the works 
were not stopped from want of funds, and says that there was no complaint of a 
want of funds. I would just refer, in the first instance, with regard to the com¬ 
plaint, to an extract from a letter which 1 read to the Committee on a previous 
occasion, dated August 1856, in which I say distinctly that we had no money 
during six weeks or two months of the brick-making season, and in consequence 
lost the greater part of the weather suitable for making bricks in 1855. That 
is one of the many complaints made with regard to the want of money. Colonel 
Pears alludes to this very circumstance in his answer to Question 3951, 
when he says that we complained we could not get bricks, but did not 
complain of a want of funds. The complaint was that we could not go on 
with the works, and could not get the bricks, because we had no funds. Then 
he says that Mr. Collins, at the time the complaint was made, had a balance 
of 18,000 rupees. I happen to have a copy of Mr. Collins’ letter upon 
that subject, he being the engineer to district 4; he says, “In reference to a 
statement made in a letter from the chief engineer in September last, to the 
effect that the coolies had deserted this district from our having no funds in 
our hands to pay their wages, I beg to inform you that the statement is per¬ 
fectly correct.” He says, “ On the 4th of that month, September, I wrote to the 
chief engineer, stating that I had only 900 rupees in my cash chest, and that the 
works must stop.” From a letter of Air. Beattie, the acting chief engineer to 
district 4, you will see that although the consulting engineer for the Govern¬ 
ment thought there were 18,000 rupees in the ca^h chest of that engineer, he 
was actually without funds and partly in debt. 

4089. There is only one other point, and that is in reference to the Colleroon 
Bridge ; have you any statement to make in regard to the ccst of that bridge ?— 
Colonel Pears stated that the Government, could do the work in 50 per cent, less 
time, and with not much less saving of money ; and quoted in proof of that the 
Colleroon Bridge. He gives us the length of the bridge, and the cost of it, quoting 
that in support of his answer with regard to the cheapness with which Government 
could have executed the works ; but if you go into that, you will find that it cost 
about 60 rupees per running foot. Our bridge, regarding which evidence was 
given, cost about 70 rupees per foot ; but we have it in the Blue Books, upon 
Colonel Pears’ own evidence, that our bridges are one-half wider than the Govern¬ 
ment bridges, so that the bridge, making it the same width as ours, would be go 
rupees per foot, and it consequently follows that the Colleroon Bridge, which has 

been 




SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 289 

been quoted as a special instance of cheapness, stands in the proportion of nine to 
seven as regards cost. 

4090. Mr. T. G. Baring.'] Do you know the breadth of the Colieroon Bridge? 
— Not that bridge especially ; but I know that Colonel Pears, in comparing 
the price of our bridges with the Government bridges, always went upon the 
assumption that our bridges were one-half wider than the Government bridges. 
With regard to time, our bridge over the Poincy took 18 months to build, but 
the bridge over the Cortilliar took only one year to build. 

4091. Mr. H. A. Bruce.] What is the length of the Poincy bridge? — About 
the same as the Colieroon. Colonel Pears also stated that my estimate was 
15,000 rupees per mile, and the actual cost 30,000 rupees ; but the fact is, that 
the estimate was about 16,000 rupees, and the cost, including all extra work, was 
18,000 rupees. 

4092. Mr. Crawford.] Are you the consulting engineer in this country to the 
Great Southward of Madras line ?—Yes. 

4093. Mr. H. A. Bruce.] You stated that the cost per mile, which was esti¬ 
mated at 16,000 rupees, was actually 180,000, including some extra works?— 
Yes, it included all those extra works which always arise in the execution of a 
railway. 

4094. Exclusive of the permanent way ?—Yes ; it included also the main¬ 
tenance of the embankment, and things of that kind, not included in the original 
16,000 rupees. 


Mr. II. B. Bruce. 


24 June 1858. 


0.01 


0 0 


LIST 




[ 290 J 


LIST OF APPENDIX. 


Appendix, No. 1. 

Papers delivered in by T. R. Watt, Esq., and referred to in his Evidence, 10 June 1858 : 

Great Indian Peninsula Railway Company: 

Present Position of the Undertaking - - - - - - - -p. 291 

Statement of Receipts and Working Expenses, Revenue Account, 18 April 1858 to 
31 December 1857 .p. 292 


Appendix, No. 2. 

Engineers’ Memorial to the Chairman and Directors of the Madras Railway Company - p. 293 

Letter from G. B. Bruce, Esq., Chief Engineer, enclosing Extract from the Minutes of Consultation, 
dated 14 February 1856 ------------ p. 295 


Extracts from a Letter of G. B. Bruce, Esq., Chief Engineer, Madras Railway, dated 2 October 
1855, addressed to the Agent of the Railway Company at Madras, and forwarded by the Agent 
under date the 8th of the same month to the Government Consulting Engineer, in compliance 
with Mr. Bruce’s request ------------ p. 296 


Appendix, No. 3 . 

Suggested Amendment of Supervision Clause of Indian Railway Contracts, 1858 - - p. 297 


Appendix, No. 4 . 

4 

Letter from C. Freshfield, Esq., to Colonel Sykes, Chairman of the Court of Directors of the 
Honourable East India Company, dated 20 January 1857 ------ p. 298 











[ 291 ] 


APPENDIX. 


Appendix, No. 1 . 


PAPERS delivered in by T. R. Watt , Esq., and referred to in his Evidence, Appendix, No. 1. 

10 June 1858. - 


GREAT INDIAN PENINSULA RAILWAY COMPANY. 


PRESENT POSITION OF THE UNDERTAKING. 


Open. 

Bombay to Callian, including Mahine Branch - 

N. E. Extension : 

Callian to Wassind - 


S. E. Extension : 
Callian to Campoolee 


Total Open - 


Constructing. 

S. E. Extension ; 

Bhore Ghat; to be completed, June 1858 - 

Ditto - - February 1861 - 

Bhore Ghat to Poonah ; to be completed June 1858 
Poonah to River Bheema; to be completed December 1858 
Bheema to Sholapore; to be completed September 1859 

N. E. Extension : 

Wassind to Rotunda Nulla; to be completed November 1859 

Thull Ghat; to be completed December 1861 - 

Thull Ghat to Bhosawul; to be completed June 1860 


- 

- 13i 


Total Constructing - 


To be Let. 

N. E. Extension: 

Bhosawul to Nagpore; to be completed by March 1862 
Bhosawul to Jubbulpore ; to be completed by March 1862 

S. E. Extension: 

Sholapore to Khistna; in abeyance 


Total to be Let 


Total Miles 


Miles. 

34 $ 

16 J 

37j 


15| 

39 $ 
63 
100 

25 

9 

190 


263 

332 

110 


Total. 


88 $ 


442$ 


'05 


1,235| 


3, New Broad-street, E. C., London ,\ 
15 June 1858. J 


Thos. R. Watt , 

Secretary. 


o.6i. 


0 0 2 
























2Q2 


APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 


Appendix, No. l. 


GREAT INDIAN PENINSULA RAILWAY COMPANY. 


STATEMENT of Receipts and Working Expenses, Revenue Account, 
18 April 1853 to 31 December 1857. 


DATE. 

Miles Open. 

Receipts. 

Expenses. 

Net Profits paid 
to the Hon. 

East India Company 
in Reduction of 
Interest advanced. 



£. 

s. 

d. 

£. 

s. 

d. 

£. 

s. 

d. 

18 April 1853 to 30 June 1854 

34} 

14,252 

3 

8 

7,129 

19 

6 

7,122 

4 

2 

1 July 1854 to 31 Dec. 1854 

" 

6,634- 

- 8 

4 

4,345 

13 

10 

2,288 

14 

6 

1 Jan. 1855 to 30 June 1855 - 

1 

7,932 

7 

1 

6,449 

9 

- 

1,482 

18 

1 

1 July 1855 to 31 Dec. 1855 - 

51 

8,252 

6 

3 

4,914 

11 

11 

3,337 

14 

4 

1 Jan. 1856 to 30 June 1856 - 

f51 for 4 months 
\88J for 2 „ ! 

| 15,191 

9 

- 

7,115 

9 

4 

8,075 

19 

8 

1 July 1856 to 31 Dec. 1856 - 

88 j 

24,555 

9 

1 

9,646 

17 

1 

14,908 

12 

- 

1 Jan. 1857 to 30 June 1857 - 

- 

33,610 

9 

5 

14,695 

5 

4 

18,915 

4 

1 

1 July 1857 to 31 Dec. 1857 - 

- 

32,867 

11 

8 

15,396 

6 

6 

17,471 

5 

2 


£. j 

143,296 

4 

6 

69,693 

12 

6 

73,602 

12 

- 


3, New Broad-street, E. C., London") 
15 June 1858. 


Thos. R. Watt , 

Secretary. 





















SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


293 


Appendix, No. 2. 


Engineers’ Memorial. 


To the Chairman and Directors of the Madras Railway Company. 

Gentlemen, 

We, the undersigned, engineers engaged on the Madras Railway, beg to call your atten¬ 
tion to the enclosed extracts from the Minutes of Consultation of the Madras Government 
Financial (Railway) Department, No. 44, dated 14th February 1850, and to the accompanying 
letter from Mr. Bruce, the chief engineer, dated 23 April 1856, and to protest against the 
censures therein contained as wholly undeserved and uncalled for. 

You will observe that our proceedings are said to have been marked throughout by a 
“ deliberate disobedience of orders.” This we most emphatically deny. 

During the whole time we have been in your employment we have used our utmost 
endeavours to carry out all the orders of your chief engineer, and it has been no small grati¬ 
fication to us that he has more than once borne testimony to our zeal and perseverance. 

In the case of the bungalows mentioned in the enclosed extracts we have equally obeyed 
his orders, the plans according to which the bungalows were built having been sent to us 
by him. 

But it is said, “ the Government cannot but view the sum spent on these buildings by 
the railway engineers as a reckless expenditure of the Company’s moneywe should feel 
much regret if any grounds existed for so grave a charge, and believing as we do that it is 
utterly without foundation, we cannot quietly submit to a censure alike injurious to our 
honour and professional reputation. 


Appendix, No. 2. 


We acknowledge that the expenditure has exceeded the sum sanctioned by Government. 
So it has in many other cases, while in others again the expenditure has fallen far short of 
the sum sanctioned. We have, in this instance, as in all others, endeavoured to execute out¬ 
work as cheaply as was consistent with efficiency and despatch, and as we are acting in the 
capacity of engineers, not of contractors, nothing more can possibly be required of us. 

Government too must have been well aware that the sum sanctioned for building these 
bungalows (rupees 350) would probably be far exceeded, for their own engineers have, to 
our knowledge, expended as much as Es. 1 ,2G0 for the same purpose in connexion with 
works of very inferior magnitude to ours. 

It should also be borne in mind that many of these bungalows have had to be erected in 
places where there existed the greatest difficulty in obtaining labour and materials, and in 
short we are convinced that any person really acquainted with what was required and done 
would at once acquit us of the charge of reckless expenditure. 

We submit then that it is most unjust for Government to refuse “ to comply with the 
request of the railway agent that the whole expenditure should be passed.” Still more so 
that they should direct “ that with respect to those districts in which the buildings have not 
already been commenced, the authority to expend money on engineers’ temporary bunga¬ 
lows be considered cancelled.” 

Apart from the manifest injustice of making all suffer for the alleged excessive expendi¬ 
ture by some, we would remind you that we were informed that bungalows would be allowed 
us, and we submit that to deprive us of them will be totally at variance with our engage¬ 
ments. We would call your attention to the fact of our subordinates (inspectors and East 
Indian apothecaries) being allowed houses, as affording evidence that Government consider 
them essential, and we appeal to you whether it can be for the interest of the Company that 
in order to save a few pounds your engineers should be exposed in such a climate, and in all 
seasons, to the danger and inconvenience of living in tents. 

\V e submit that such an arrangement is incompatible with the efficient superintendence of 
the works, and that instead of a saving to the Company, it must lead to a very considerable 
pecuniary loss, as it only can be carried out at great sacrifice of time, health, and possibly 
life It cannot for a moment be entertained that we on a short engagement, and subject at 
any time to removal to other districts, should adopt the alternative of providing at our 
expense buildings which are in reality necessary foT the transaction of the Company’s 

business. 


0.61. 


O O3 


We 




294 


APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 


Appendix, No. 2. We take this opportunity of expressing- our earnest hope that you will interfere to prevent 
—— the repetition of the unmerited censures to which we are constantly subjected by Govern¬ 

ment, and which are published annually in the Blue Books, and frequently in the public 
prints, while our replies and observations are withheld at the discretion of the Government 
consulting engineer, so that we have not the means of setting ourselves right in the eyes of 
the public. 

It is difficult for a person at home to form a correct estimate of the onerous duties that 
have to be performed by an engineer on the Madras Railway ; but when it is considered 
that the superintendence exercised in England by skilled mechanics and good tradesmen, 
has here to be entrusted, unless in one instance (Poiney Bridge), to discharged soldiers, 
untrained Europeans, or East Indians, and ignorant and untrustworthy natives, few of whom, 
if any, have ever before seen a railway or been engaged on works, and all requiring to be 
instructed in the simplest details ; when we add to this, that the Madras Railway Company 
are, as it were, their own contractors, the system of large contracts not having been adopted, 
and that nearly the whole of the line is constructed by day labour, many of the engineers 
having frequently from 4,000 to 6,000 people daily paid by tickets, and weekly by cash; 
when it is considered that the engineer has not only to give his constant personal attention 
to all the works on his district, but has also to design and construct a great portion of the 
tools and plant he requires, and even materials, such as lime, bricks, &c. have to be made by 
the engineer; that the districts are about 25 miles long, instead of 10 or 12 , as is usual in 
England, and that all the accounts have to be examined, checked, and even occasionally made 
out by the engineer, who thus combines in his own person the resident engineer, the con¬ 
tractor, the manufacturer of materials, and the accountant; and that moreover we have had 
the disadvantage of having the whole native officials against us, and had to break through 
the tyrannical system of impressment and advances hitherto used by Government, it might 
be supposed that every encouragement would be afforded us, and every allowance made for 
the difficulty of oUr position ; such, however, is far from being the case. 

In the Railway Department, Blue Books of Government censures on almost every 
engineer engaged by the Company are to be found, and the periodical receipt of these un¬ 
favourable observations is most discouraging to us, feeling as we do that we have done our 
best to merit approval. In our humble opinion the effect of these censures has decidedly 
“ tended to retard rather than to facilitate progress.” 

The complaints by Government of delay in the progress of the work are particularly un¬ 
reasonable; for in almost every instance where delay has occurred, which has certainly not 
been so frequently as might be supposed from ihe language of the Blue Books, it has been 
caused either by Government withholding the necessary funds, or from our not being able to 
obtain possession of the land. We have been repeatedly stopped by want of money. With 
all this, it is somewhat remarkable that the result of the only complete inspection of our 
works which has been made by the Government engineer since the commencement of the 
year 1854 , was an expression on his part of great satisfaction with their state and progress, 
a favourable review on the part of Government, and an intimation of your satisfaction and 
approval. 

This, we think, sufficiently shoas that the previous censures and discouraging remarks were 
unfounded, and we believe that further investigation will show that those directed to us 
subsequently have been equally undeserved. 

We are well aware of the right of supervision over all departments of the railway enjoyed 
by Government, but we protest most emphatically against the mode in which that right is 
exercised. If our works were subjected to the inspection of professional men possessed 
of a practical acquaintance with railways, we should not object to meet their criticisms, 
but it cannot be wondered at that we who have been educated as engineers, and have 
had in most cases experience of the duties, and the freedom from undeserved censures of 
engineers on works at home, should be impatient of the censures of men, who, however 
worthy of respect in the profession to which they belong, have shown that they are destitute 
of that peculiar knowledge which would fit them for the supervision of the details of 
railway construction. 

We believe we have double the length of line entrusted to the charge of the Bengal 
engineers, who are moreover exempt, unless perhaps in exceptional cases and under peculiar 
circumsiances, from the duties of contractors, and making tools and materials which, as 
already stated, devolve upon us. We submit, therefore, that we are entitled to equal 
allowances for bungalows, &c., and to equal freedom from petty interferences on the part of 
Government. 

We trust that you will not on account of these remarks consider that we are dissatisfied 
with our position as regards you or your chief engineer. On the contrary, we received with 
the greatest satisfaction the approval of your Board already referred to, and willingly bear 
testimony, not only to the uniform kindness and consideration we have received from 
Mr. Bruce, but to his excellent mode of supervision, his indefatigable zeal for the Company’s 
interest, and his high professional attainments. 


We 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 295 

We must, however, earnestly request your early and active interference to protect us Appendix, No. 2, 

Irom these unjust censures, which endanger our professional reputation and future prospects, - 

and question our honour as gentlemen. 

We have, Sec. 

(signed) Bryce M‘Master, Resident Engineer, Districts 1, 2,3. 

James Collins , Resident Engineer, District 4 . 

H. B. Hederstedt , Assistant Engineer, District 5. 

George Latham , Assistant Engineer, District 6. 

Wm. Henderson , Assistant. Engineer, District 7. 

Alex. Beattie, Resident Engineer, Districts. 

Thos. Lovell, Assistant Engineer, District 9. 

Vacant, District 10. 

Alex. Bryce, Acting Resident Engineer, District 11. 

Alex. H. Macnair, Assistant Engineer, District 12. 

A. I). Rose, Assistant Engineer, District 13 . 

B. Parker, Resident Engineer, District 14 . 

Roht. C. Rowlands, Assistant Engineer, District 15 . 

Chas.J. M. Dixon, Assistant Engineer, District 16 . 

Geo. Howard Fenwick, Resident Engineer, District 17 . 

Robt. Baton, Assistant Engineer, Madras Terminal Station. 

Wm. Geo. Smart, Resident Engineer, Cuddapah Survey. 

A. Stein, Assisi ant Engineer, Cuddapah Survey. 

Chas. E. Purdoy, Assistant Engineer, Cuddapah Survey. 

T. M. H. Johnston, Assistant Engineer, Cuddapah Survey. 


7 May 1856 . 


(A true copy.) 

(signed) Ja. Walker, 

Managing Director, Madras Railway Company. 


Circular. 

My dear Sir, Madras, 23 April, 1856 . 

I enclose an extract from the Minutes of Consultation of the Government, showing the 
views they entertain regarding the expenditure on the bungalows on your district above the 
sum sanctioned for that purpose. 

The agent and manager has desired me to carry them into effect. 

Yours, &c. 

• (signed) Geo. B. Bruce, Chief Engineer. 
(A true copy.) 

(signed) Ja. Walker, Managing Director, 
Madras Railway Company. 


(No. 44 .) 


Financial (Railway) Department. 

Extract from the Minutes of Consultation, dated 14 February 1856 . 


* # * • • 


Para. 2. The Government entirely concur in the views expressed by Colonel Pears in 
paras. 5 to 7 , ofhis review of this expenditure, and are of opinion with him that Mr. Bruce, 
the chief engineer, is greatly to blame in these proceedings of the railway engineers, 
which have been marked throughout by a deliberate disobedience of orders. These orders, 
as justly observed by Colonel Fears, are very clear and decisive, and there could therefore 
be no misunderstanding; considering the temporary object for which the bungalows are 
required, that not one of them, as remarked by Colonel Pears, can be regarded as a per¬ 
manent structure, and that they are all built of inferior materials, the Government cannot 
but view the sum spent on these buildings by the railway engineers as a reckless expendi¬ 
ture of the Company’s money. 

3 . Entertaining these views, the Government cannot consistently comply with the 
request of the railway agent, that the whole expenditure should be passed, and they rt solve 
to call his particular attention to the total disregard of their orders by the railway en¬ 
gineers ; and to inform him that the Government look to him to see their instructions 
obeyed, and expect that he will vindicate his own authority, and that of the Government, 
by suspending any officer of the Company who shall in future deliberately oppose himself 
to. their orders. 

# # * # # 


0.61. 


O 0 4 


5 . The 





296 


APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 


Appendix, No. 2. 5. The Government further direct that with respect to those districts in which the 

buildings have not already been commenced, the authority to expend money on engineers’ 
temporary bungalows be considered cancelled. 

G- The Government also resolve to instruct the railway agent that money to the 
extent already sanctioned lor that purpose, may be expended on temporary bungalows 
for inspectors, sub-inspectors, and apothecaries, and that when such temporary buildings 
are required in connexion with any particular work of magnitude, they be provided out 
of the contingencies for that work, and so entered in the accounts. 


(True extract.) 

(signed) Robert Palon, for Chief Engineer. 


Madras Railway, Chief Engineer’s 
23 April 1856 . 


Office, 

(A true copy.) 
(signed) 


Ja. Walker, Managing Director, 
Madras Railway Company. 


Extracts from a Letter of G. B. Bruce, Esq., Chief Engineer, Madras Railway, dated 
2 October 1855 , addressed to the Agent of the Railway Company at Madras, and for¬ 
warded by the Agent under date the 8th of the same month to the Government Consulting 
Engineer, in compliance with Mr. Bruce’s request. 

(No. 284 .) Madras, 2 October 1855 . 

* * * * * # * 

10. As to the charge, disregard of orders, and not supplying information, I can only say 
that I have never intentionally disregarded any orders ; and if ever 1 have deviated from the 
strict line of official routine, l have been led into it by no other feeling than too intense a 
desire to forward the work. 


11. As to the non-supply of information and plans, I can say conscientiously that I have 
never in one single instance withheld information which I possessed, or failed to endeavour 
to get it when required. 

12. It is my most anxious desire to supply all papers, documents, and information called 
for, and when I fail in this, or the delay is greater than could be wished, it is owing entirely 
to the very limited staff placed at my disposal. 

13 . When drawings are not forwarded, it is pnly from the physical inability to get them 
done. 


14 . Compare for a moment this line wiih that in Bengal; there each engineer has about 
12 miles, with surveyors and draughtsmen under him, as well as highly-paid inspectors from 
England. Besides all this, he has a contractor to do the work, who in turn has his 
engineers and superintendents. 

15 . The staff employed is as four to one, both in the office and the field. 

16 . I plead guilty to the charge of not having supplied either Government or our directors 
with information and drawings so fully and speedily as was desirable, and no one has deplored 
this more than I have done; but with my present small staff I cannot hope for much 
improvement. 

17 . It is probable I have myself to blame for having tried to keep down the expenses of 
the engineering establishment as much as possible, perhaps below the standard of efficiency, 
and have in consequence incurred your displeasure, and that of Government. 

18 . If Government and our directors will by increasing the staff of engineers, lighten their 
labours, and give me a more efficient office staff, upon a footing proportionate to the work, 

I shall not fail to satisfy all the requirements of Government. 


19 . I beg to repeat that I have not disobeyed the orders of Government, inasmuch as the 
Goriathim Bridge has not been begun. I regret the delay which occurred in sending the 
particulars required ; this was partly accidental, partly unavoidable, but very far from being 
designed or intentional. 


20. It is due to me that this letter should be forwarded to Government, and that the notice 
of the Board of Directors should be specially called to it. 

(signed) G. B. Bruce. 

(True extract.) 

Ja. Walker. 




SELECT COMMITTEE OX EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


297 


Appendix, No. 3 . 


Suggested Amendment of Supervision Clause of Indian Railway Contracts, 1858 . Appendix, No. 3. 


Memorandum. 

All general plans, designs, and estimates to be submitted for approval of the Government 
engineer as at present. 

The designs and estimates once approved, the carrying out of the work to be left to the 
engineers of the railway company. 

The designs not to be varied in principle or in their essential character, and the sanctioned 
estimates not to be exceeded. 

The work as completed to be reported to the Government engineer, who will inspect and 
certify to its being in accordance with the approved plans, and within the sanctioned 
estimate. 

Certificates to be paid as at present on monthly measurements of work, and fortnightly 
on account, on approval of the railway engineer, who is responsible for the work executed 
corresponding with the payments. 

Advances of funds upon security of mercantile houses, of plant, or otherwise than upon 
materials on the ground to be specially sanctioned by Government engineers. Advances 
on delivered materials to be made on the certificate and responsibility of the railway 
engineers. 

On questions on which the Government engineer disagrees with the railway engineer, the 
locomotive superintendent, or the traffic manager, the subject should be considered in a 
committee of the Government engineer, the railway agent, and the railway officer whose 
department is affected, in order that the benefit of that experience and special qualification 
which the railway company’s officers possess, may not be entirely neutralised and lost; 
that no avoidable delay shall take place in supplying the funds, or the engineering or other 
assistance, when required, and applied for by the railway companies. That the home 
supervision should be so far simplified and amended, that on all the usual business of the 
company, the sanction of the official director shall suffice, without increasing the delay by a 
reference upon minor details to the India House and the India Board, but that such 
reference to the supreme authorities should be limited to broad principles, and important 
questions exclusively. 

The advantages over the existing plan are these. The responsibility is imposed, felt, and 
accepted by those on whom it at present virtually rests, and the check will be the more 
effectual from the fact of the responsibility being defined. 

The decision upon all important questions is reserved to the Government engineers, who 
sanction and certify the due execution, at an approved cost, of all the works, while the 
responsibility of the details, and the observance of the conditions rests, where it ought to 
rest, upon the railway engineers. 

The evil of the present practice may be concisely defined. 

The railway engineers have the real responsibility, divested of the element which imparts 
the chief security—the acknowledgment of their responsibility, and the check is now 
really less effectual than it will be under the amended arrangement; the delays are alike 
injurious and unavoidable. The Government powers of selecting the route, and direction 
of the line, their financial audit, their approval of the whole of the designs, plans, and 
estimates of every portion of the work, and their complete control of all the expenditure 
remain undisturbed. 

There is no alteration in the principles or conditions of the contract with the railway 
companies, it is only the amended interpretation or definition of one clause, which the 
practice and experience of several years have shown to be indispensable. 





29S 


APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 


Appendix, No. 4 . 


Appendix, No. 4 . 


To Colonel Sykes, Chairman of the Court of Directors of the Honourable East India 

Company. 


Dear Sir, London, 20 January 1857, 

On the recent occasion upon which I had the honour of waiting on you, at the instance 
of, and accompanied by, a deputation of the directors of the Oude Railway Company, 

I advanced the position that the arrangements between the East India Company and the 
various companies formed for making railways in India, embodied in the guarantee of 
interest, had not up to this point involved present burthen on the revenues or resources of 
India, and that the experience of the working of the railways (unfavourable as up to this 
time it must have been, as a fair test of their prospects) was sufficient to dispel the appre¬ 
hension that there would be any ultimate charge on those revenues and resources resulting 
from the guarantee. 

The fact which 1 assumed as the basis of the first proposition was that the East India 
Company had always hitherto (by reason of the stipulation contained in the contracts that 
all the capital of the railway companies, as called up, should be paid into their treasury) been 
in possession of a much larger amount of the capital of the railway company than it had ever 
been called upon to disburse in the form of guaranteed interest. 

You appeared to doubt the correctness of that assumption; and, in reply, I ventured to 
express my conviction that, if the accounts were examined, it would be found that the East 
India Company had now in their hands several millions of the railway capital contributed 
by the various railway companies, and that even if from that sum were deducted the aggre¬ 
gate of interest paid by the East India Company to the several companies under their 
guarantee, there would still be a large residue. 

You intimated surprise at this statement, and I had, of course, not the means at hand of 
following the matter further. 

» 

Neither have I since had the time necessary to collect the materials for precise information 
on the point. I have, however, felt it due, both to you and to myself, to make so much of' 
inquiry as was necessary to enable me generally to test the accuracy of the views expressed; 
and I have been led by a sense of the importance of the subject into some further considera¬ 
tions, which I shall take the liberty of bringing under your notice. 

To make my statement intelligible, it is necessary that I should premise a few facts 
connected with the early negotiations which led to the principle of arrangement between the 
East India Company and the railway companies, which is embodied in the contract between 
them. 

The first suggestion of the introduction of the railway system into India originated, as you 
are no doubt aware, with Sir Macdonald Stephenson, so long ago as the year 1844, towards 
the latter end of which year a few gentlemen met in London, at his invitation, to discuss 
the subject on public grounds. The result of their deliberations was a conviction that the 
introduction of railways into India would be attended by incalculable advantage to the 
empire in every point of view, but that the inducements for the employment of capital-in 
such an enterprise in India were not of a character sufficiently certain to afford the prospect 
of success in an attempt to raise money for the purpose, without the guarantee of a certain 
minimum rate of interest. These views were represented to the East India Company, 
accompanied by a proposal to enter upon the undertaking, provided the Court of Directors 
would give the guarantee. The Court of Directors, after considerable discussion, first upon 
the adaptability of the railway system to the Indian Empire, and subsequently on the policy 
of committing them to individual euterprise or undertaking them on their own behalf, and 
also on the question of w r hich was the most important line on which to commence, ultimately 
entertained the proposal of the East Indian Railway Company, which had been formed in 
1845 in anticipation of this decision. 

It is unnecessary, and would be irksome, to follow the course of these proceedings and 
negotiations, which occupied a period of four years. 

It will be sufficient for the present purpose to say that, in September 1848, after having, 
as the promoters of the movement supposed, adopted the principle of a guarantee, the Court 
of Directors eventually proposed to the East Indian Railway Company (who were the 
pioneers in the great movement) an arrangement by which they were to advance interest at 

5, per 



299 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


5 per cent, on the capital necessary for the construction of an experimental line from Appendix, No. 4. 
Calcutta to Burdwan, on the route to Delhi. The interest was to be guaranteed for 99 years; 
but it was expressly stipulated by the Court of Directors that if the receipts of the railway 
did not pay its expenses,, the. railway company must bear the loss. It was pointed out 
that such an arrangement implied no guarantee, and amounted to no more than the railway 
company could do for themselves out of their own capital; but the East India Company were 
inflexible. 

In this conjuncture the railway cause had almost succumbed—one of its earliest and 
staunchest advocates and adherents, the first chairman of the company. Sir George Larpent, 
had been compelled from circumstances to withdraw from it—the sympathy of others of its 
supporters had grown cold, and the hearts of all had become sick from hope deferred. 

Fortunately there still remained a few indomitable spirits, who regarded the cause as worthy 
of a more protracted struggle, and eventually, after much negotiation, conducted mainly 
by the late Mr. Aglionby, the then chairman of the company, and Mr. Wilson, then 
Secretary of the Board of Control, the difficulty was met in the way of compromise. An 
arrangement was proposed to and accepted by the railway company, by which, while the 
East India Company’s obligation was limited to the guarantee of interest, the railway 
company were to have the liberty, if dissatisfied with its working prospects, to deliver up 
the railway at any time, after it had been at work for three months, to the East India 
Company, and be entitled to receive from them the capital expended, either in money or an 
annuity. This arrangement embodies the principle common to all the existing railway 
companies, and is adopted and viewed by the public as a practical guarantee of a dividend, 
with the qualification only of the possible loss of interest for the period intervening before 
the railway could be surrendered. The effect of this qualification, and of the complicated 
provisions of the contract, has however been, as you will readily understand, to render 
necessary the payment of a higher rate of interest than would have been requisite if the 
arrangement had been one of simple guarantee of a certain return, with the contingent 
prospect of some addition to it. I pointed out this inevitable consequence at the time, and 
even suggested that the East India Company, in return for the unqualified guarantee, might 
stipulate for one-half of the net profits, after payment of the guaranteed rate, which would 
have been a very beneficial arrangement for the East India Company; but the proposition 
did not meet with favour. 

I11 addition to this unsatisfactory feature in the arrangement, the East India Company 
stipulated for an absolute control in all the arrangements of the railway companies, extend¬ 
ing both to the selection of the route and to the mode and cost of construction of the 
railway; the rate of fares to be taken ; the number of trains to run ; and numerous other 
restrictive provisions ; which stipulations were necessarily attended by the consequence of 
withdrawing from the enterprise the element of reasonable calculation of return from in¬ 
herent merit. It was impossible to estimate the profit of a railway—the course, the cost, 
the working, and the fares of which, were all to be prescribed by an external authority 
whose interests must in many respects be at variance with those of the company. 

Another stipulation embodied in the contract, at the instance of the Court of Directors, 
and forming a leading feature in the arrangements, was, that the East India Company 
should be at liberty to appoint an ex-officio director at the Board, with a veto on the pro¬ 
ceedings of the railway company. This condition was understood at the time to imply the 
appointment of an officer of high reputation and ability, who should aid the councils of the 
Board, and carry with him the weight of the authority of the East India Company; and in 
this view of it the stipulation was not objected to. But it was assumed that the ex-officio 
director thus appointed would impersonate their views; and it was never contemplated that 
the proceedings of the Board, at which he sat, would have to be submitted, first, to the Court 
of Directors, and afterwards to the Board of Control, and be approved by both authorities 
before they could be acted upon. Nevertheless, such has been the system adopted; and to 
this cause must be attributed much delay and complication.which has necessarily attended 
the progress of the various undertakings in course of execution. 

Among the other provisions in the arrangements with the East India Company were 1 
these: that the whole of the capital of the railway companies should, as called up, be paid 
into the treasury of the East India Company, who should also have custody of all the revenue 
of the companies when their lines were opened. The net receipts of the railways were first 
to be applied in relief of the East India Company’s guarantee, in payment of the current 
interest, and any surplus to be appropriated, one. half towards repaying the aggregate of 
interest advanced by the East India Company with interest, and the other to be the pro¬ 
perty of the railway company. 

I have touched thus slightly on these points in the history of the Indian railways, be¬ 
cause a knowledge of them is necessary to enable you to understand and to account for their 
past course and present position. # 

Under this system three principal companies grew up, one in each of the three Presi¬ 
dencies. The East India Railway Company, the contractors for the railway from Calcutta 
to Delhi and Lahore, in the Bengal Presidency; the Great Indian Peninsular Railway 
Company, the contractors for the line from Bombay to the Kristnat, to Nagpoor, and to 
Jubbulpore, in the Bombay Presidency; and the Madras Railway Company, the promoters 
of the line from Madras, across that Presidency, to Calicut, on the coast of Malabar. 

These companies have now progressed so far on their course, as each of them to have 
completed and opened for traffic a section of their lines, one in each Presidency. 

Of these, the Bombay line is at work for about 70 miles, but its course is such as hitherto 

0.6]. Qq t0 


300 


APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 


Appendix, No. 4. to afford no fair test of its prospects. The Madras line is also open for about 70 miles, but 

- it has been in work too short a time to admit of any opinion being formed of its results. 

Both these sections have, however, from the first more than paid their expenses, with evi¬ 
dent capacity for a return in a short time exceeding the rate of guaranteed interest. The 
first section of the East Indian Railway to Raneegunge, about 120 miles, has been in work 
since February 1855, and though short in length, and by no means fully organised, has 
already not only paid its working expenses, but furnished from its traffic the means of re¬ 
paying some 60,000 /. on account of current interest to the East India Company, and its 
net receipts are understood at the present time to exceed the rate of guarantee of 5 per 
cent. 

Besides these undertakings, the East India Company have entered into contracts with 
two other companies, the Scinde and the Baroda Railway Companies, but neither of them 
have any portion of their lines in operation. 

From returns made to Parliament in the last Session, it appears that up to the 30th of 
April last, after deducting the interest paid to the railway companies, there remained in 
the hands of the East India Company the sum of 1,705,087/. 7 s. 11 d. of the railway 
capital. 

My time has not permitted me to refer to the earlier returns (if such there be), nor to 
ascertain the present position of the two more modern of the five railway companies above 
enumerated; but, from inquiries I have made, I believe that, the following propositions will 
be found to be substantially correct as to the three great lines, namely, the East Indian, 
the Bombay, and Madras companies (and the principle, I have no doubt, will extend to the 
other two railway companies), namely :— 

1. That the East India Company (under the stipulation by which all the capital 
raised by the railway companies has been, and must be, paid into the treasury of the 
East India Company) has always been in possession of a much larger sum than the 
aggregate interest advanced by them under their guarantee. 

2. As to the East India Railway Company, that the East India Company have now 
about 1,250,000/., or thereabouts, of the capital of that company in their hands, 
while the aggregate amount of interest paid to that company does not exceed 600,000/., 
or thereabouts. 

3. As to the Bombay Railway Company, that the East India Company have now in 
their hands about 2,000,000/. of the capital of that company, while the aggregate 
amount of interest paid to that company does not exceed 220,000/., or thereabouts. 

4. As to the Madras Railway Company, that the East India Company have now 
1,000,000/., or thereabouts, of the capital of that company in their hands, while 
the aggregate amount of interest paid by the East India Company to that company 
does not exceed 150,000 /. 

5. During all the time that the railway capital has lain in the hands of the East 
India Company, it has been employed at interest, or with equal advantage, for the pur¬ 
poses of the East India Company. 

Consistently with this state of facts, it is quite clear that, up to this time, not only 
have the railway companies not been a burthen on the revenues or resources of India, but 
that the East India Company has actually, daring the period of seven years which has inter¬ 
vened since their establishment, been in possession'through means of their capital, of con¬ 
siderable, not to say large sums, over and above the sums advanced for interest, which have 
been available for their own purposes. This state of things will continue at all times, so 
long as the capital of the railway companies is in course of subscription, and until their 
capital accounts are closed. The railway companies are always ready and willing to 
call up capital, in order to secure the guaranteed interest, and the East India Company, 
as their self-stipulated bankers, have at all times the control and use of the money sub¬ 
scribed. 

These facts sufficiently bear out the first position which I assumed in my interview with 
you. The other proposition, viz., that the railways in India will not at any future period 
form a burthen on the revenue or resources of India, is one on which the existing evidence is 
not, from its nature, so decisive. 

The only line hitherto open which has afforded anything like the approximation to a test of 
its results, is that of the East Indian Railway Company. 

Taking the experience of the first section of that line, the revenue already realised will 
more than pay the guaranteed interest on the cost even of the first section, and that notwith¬ 
standing that hitherto the traffic on that section has been but little developed, the rolling 
stock has been limited, the arrangements imperfect, the working expenses comparatively 
heavy, the trade comparatively small. When the line is further advanced, and communica¬ 
tion is open with the Ganges and the commerce of that vast district, there is no doubt that 
it will increase to a vast extent. But that is not all. The increase of revenue will be in a 
ratio much larger relatively to the cost than the increased distance, while the fixed expenses 
will relatively decrease, and this will be the case as each section opens. Moreover, the charge 
for interest on capital unproductive, while the railway is in course of construction, will also 
diminish in proportion as it opens. If the receipts of the first section pay the current interest, 
the receipts of two continuous sections will do more, and as the traffic developes by each 
extension, the revenue will extend not only to pay the current interest, but to accumulate a 

fund 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 301 

fund towards repayment of the interest already paid. For example, while the Bengal line 
is only open to Raneegunje, the whole of the capital not employed in that section ^unpro¬ 
ductive, and the interest paid is a dead charge upon it. Thus, at present, the productive 
capital does not much exceed 1 , 000,000 /., while the unproductive is 5 , 000 , 000 /. ; but, as 
soon as the line is open to Rajmahal, the capital productive will he raised to 3,000 000 /. 
while the capital unproductive will be reduced to 3,000,000 /. It is true that, by that time' 
further capital will have been expended, and the proportion of productive and unproductive 
capital may not therefore have become materially changed, but this will not continue, because 
as the completion of the work advances the productive capital will gradually absorb the 
unproductive. But as the traffic developes on the extended line, it is only a reasonable and 
natural conclusion based on the experience already attained, that the revenue increased by 
the increasing traffic, with the expenditure reduced by being wider spread and by improved 
arrangements, will not only supply the current interest, but will provide a surplus above 
the guarantee, which at first as to the whole, and hereafter as to a moiety of it, will be imme¬ 
diately applicable by the East India Company, as a fund to repay the interest already advanced. 
This operation will be repeated as each section opens; the dead capital will decrease as the 
productive capital increases, and while the current interest will be provided out of the capital 
as heretofore, the surplus receipts will be accumulating in the hands of the East India 
Company (as the interest made on the surplus capital will or should have done), towards 
defraying any dead charge of interest advanced in excess of that receivable from the profits 
of the railway. 

Thus the working of the arrangement between the East India Company and the railway 
companies is this. . The East India Company grants a conditional guarantee, by means of 
which the capital is raised. In return for this guarantee, it stipulates for the custody of the 
railway capital. Out of this capital, it provides for the current interest, employing the 
balance for its own purposes; and it repays itself the money thus advanced, with interest, out 
of the revenues of the railway. 

_ In discussing the subject, however, the possible contingency must not be excluded from 
view, that in the case of some or one of the railways, when completed, and in work through¬ 
out, the revenues from traffic may not, at the first opening, realise more than sufficient to 
pay the current interest. It is not reasonable to contemplate their falling short of this, 
because, the lines having been selected by the East India Company, and worked under their 
direction, they are not likely to be so worked as to be burthensome. Assuming the case 
contemplated to arise, and the capital account of the railway to have been closed, whatever 
sum shall have been paid by the East India Company up to that time, in the shape of 
interest, will form an advance by the East India Company to the railway company. Even 
in that case, however, the East India Company may be protected from actual pecuniary advance 
by an arrangement with the railway company, to leave in their hands, at interest, such a 
sum as may be necessary to cover the amount of interest paid. Or assuming that arrange¬ 
ment to be open to any objection or difficulty, the principal sum might form a portion of the 
money borrowed by the East India Company on loan. It is not probable that the amount 
would be large, and if the railway receipts develope as rapidly as the experience hitherto 
renders probable, the surplus above the guaranteed rate will probably more than provide the 
interest necessary on the dead charge, regarded as money raised by the East India Company. 
Let it be assumed, for instance, that the line to Lahore is completed at an outlay of 
15,000,000/. sterling, the capital account closed, and the railway company unwilling to 
allow the surplus capital raised to remain on loan, and that the money advanced for interest 
amounts to the improbable sum of 1,500,000/. If the revenues of the railway should realise 
only 6 per cent., one-half of the surplus above 5 per cent, would be appropriable by the 
East India Company in repayment of back interest; and that sum would amount to 75,000 /., 
or 5 per cent, on 1,500,000 /., the debt assumed to be incurred on the account of that rail¬ 
way. But if the railways proceed on the scale of which the interests of India admit, and 
seem to render desirable, the great trunk lines in the three Presidencies will have opened 
and been in full work long before the supplies of capital constantly being paid to the East 
India Company on account of other railways in progress will have ceased. These funds will 
always be in excess of the drafts on them for the current outlay (as those of the present 
trunk lines have been and are) ; and will always extend to meet a large aggregate advance 
of interest on account of those companies whose capitals are closed. In the meantime, the 
traffic on the lines open will have developed, and the surplus receipts above the guarantee 
will form an available fund to provide the interest on a loan, if it should be found necessary 
to raise it, for railway purposes. 

But while this is the immediate financial view of these transactions, there are broader and 
larger considerations involved in them, which sink the mere pecuniary question into insig¬ 
nificance. Let it be assumed that the construction of the trunk lines of railway in the 
three Presidencies should leave the East India Company/with a dead charge of the large 
sum of five millions sterling, composed of interest advanced on capital unproductive during 
their construction. 

The numerical force (if I am correctly informed) of the armies of India does not fall 
short of 300,000 men; the yearly cost of the military establishment considerably exceeds 
ten millions sterling. 

Can it be doubted that the direct saving to the East India Company in the economy of 
their military and administrative arrangements, through the introduction into the country of 
a system of locomotion, Avhich would enable the East India Company to concentrate their 
forces on any one or more point at a rate of speed of 400 miles a day instead of 10, would 

0.61. QQ2 far 


Appendix, 


302 


APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 


Appendix, No. 4 . far more than redeem a charge of 200,000/. or 250,000/. paid in annual interest on five 
- millions sterling thus expended. 

I do not enlarge on this point, because my knowledge on subjects of Indian finance, and 
arrangements generally, is not sufficient to entitle me, and the limited time at my disposal 
does not allow me to do so; while your information on all these subjects is consummate. 
But even if the economy thus involved were less certain and extensive, can it be doubted 
that, on a large view of the resources and revenue of India, both would increase under the 
influence of the railway system, to an extent which would far more than outweigh any 
moderate increase on the actual expenditure ? 

The fixed debt of five millions, which I have assumed, presupposes the outlay of capital 
imported into India from Great Britain, amounting to thirty millions and upwards, and 
laid out on that class of works most promotive of trade and commerce, viz., public highways. 
Can it be doubted that the revenues of India would be increased to the extent of interest 
on the smaller sum of five millions? But, if so, the great object will have been attained of 
attracting British capital into India to the amount of thirty millions sterling, at no present 
cost to the Indian revenue, with the ultimate certainty of great resulting advantages to 
the country. 

But even these are narrow views of the subject. The East India Company derive an 
annual revenue exceeding twenty-five millions sterling from India; and surely it is not too 
much to expect that they should lay out some portion of that money annually in public 
roads, and not look for the means wholly to capitalists in Great Britain, accepting their 
assistance only to an extent that can be proved to involve actual pecuniary profit. 

I now pass on to the question which was more immediately involved in the object of the 
interview sought with you by the Oude Railway Company, viz.:—Whether the East India 
Company ought to be called upon to extend the principle of guarantee to other companies 
than those embraced in their present arrangements ? 

It appeared to be considei’ed as matter of doubt on the part of yourself and your colleague 
whether future railways should not be left to their own inherent prospects. I have given 
much consideration to this question, and my own mind has arrived at two main conclusions 
bearing on this point, which I may thus state shortly, viz : 





1. That the railway companies, as individual enterprises, would be better without the 
guarantee of the East India Company, if its absence would secure them immunity from, 
the control and restrictions imposed in the contract, and submitted to for the sake 
of the guarantee, assuming always that the capital could be raised without a 
guarantee. 

2. That the East India Company derives a large benefit from the guarantee through 
the conditions which it enables the Court to impose upon the railway companies, and 
through the means which it affords of obtaining the necessary capital, and that it is 
neither their interest nor their policy to resign it. 

In arriving at these conclusions, I assume that the restrictive stipulations in the contract 
submitted to by the railway companies are the price of the guarantee, and that if the 
guarantee were not given those conditions could not be exacted, but that the railway com¬ 
panies must be, as in England, free and unfettered. 

I assume further that the interests of India require that the railway system should have 
full scope in that country, at the earliest period, and that there is no class of public 
works there which is of such primary importance afe the establishment of roads through the 
country. 

It is not necessary here again to examine very critically the cost of the guarantee to the 
East India Company. 

I have already explained its nature; that it extends simply to an advance of interest by 
the East India Company, pending the unproductiveness of the railway; that the means of 
its payment have hitherto been found in the railway capital lying in the treasury of the 
East India Company; that this will always be the case until the railway in respect of which 
it is paid is completed; and, supposing that climax attained, so long as the capital of other 
railways to a sufficient amount is in the treasury of the East India Company ; that imme¬ 
diately the railway is productive, its first receipts are to be appropriated in discharge 
of the obligation of the East India Company to pay currrent interest; that one moiety 
of the surplus receipts above the guarantee are also thenceforth applicable to payment of the 
interest theretofore advanced, and that that interest is to be repaid with interest. 

It is obvious that there is nothing in these provisions, viewed as the price of the railways, 
burthensome to the East India Company, unless in the contingency of the revenues of the 
railways not paying current interest. That risk is undoubtedly undertaken by the East 
India Company, and is involved in the guarantee; but, in assuming that the railways are a 
work of corresponding advantage to India, I assume also that, if not constructed by a 
company, they must have been undertaken by the Government. But if the Government 
had undertaken the work on its own account, it must have provided the funds for the 
purpose, and, if so, it must have raised the money by loan, and found interest for the money 
so raised. Would the Government have been better by such an arrangement? In that case 
the East India Company, as the Government of India, would (if they could have raised 
the money) have had to provide the interest either out of capital raised directly for the 
purpose, on their own account, or out of the revenues or resources of India. Under the 
present arrangement, it is provided for them out of capital raised by others during the con¬ 
struction 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


303 


nowlw,!^ Hne ]’,i a K d ,‘ h « fir3t .. recei P‘ a line are no less charged with its payment Append*, N 
now than they would be if the railways had been in their own hands 1 J 11 _ 

the , a u- ofinte / e f tch ^g ed gainst the railway is higher in respect of money 
raised through the machinery of the railway companies, than it would be if raised by simple 
loan ; but that is a result due to the complex and artificial character of the o-uarantee and 
which might be removed at any time by adopting a simple guarantee 

It must also be admitted that if the East India Company had decided on constructing 
the railways on their own account, their position would have been better in the event of the 
railway paying more than the guarantee, because in that case they would have been entitled 
to the whole, instead of a moiety of the evcess. But this view has no bearing on the inquiry 
as to the burthensome quality of the guarantee to the East India Company under the 
existing arrangement. The surrender of the moiety of the surplus profits is a sacrifice by 
the Last India Company if the line produce them, but it is only by the adoption of a 
principle of personal construction which they have repudiated on grounds of policy that this 
benefit could have been realised. 

The cost of the guarantee to the East India Company therefore lies only in the risk of 
the railway not paying that sum in revenue. That is a risk which the East India Company 
must have borne if they had undertaken the work themselves. All the other provisions of 
the contract are to their advantage. 

Let us now see the effect of the stipulations exacted by the East India Company from 
the railway companies, and examine how far they involve benefit to the East India Com¬ 
pany, corresponding with the burthen of the guarantee, and how far on the part of the 
railway companies they amount to an adequate consideration for the guarantee. 

The first stipulation secured by the East India Company is the choice and direction of 
the line and route of railway to the exclusion of competition, and the adoption of their own 
interests in preference (when they may happen to differ), to those of the railway company. 

This privilege has been considered in foreign countries so great as to induce the French and 
other governments to concede a guarantee of interest, or to give other equivalents, in return 
ior it. In India the object is still greater, because it has enabled the Government to select 
political rather than commercial lines. But this is only a small feature in the restrictions 
imposed on the Indian railway companies. In the construction of the works the East India 
Company reserve the power to direct the most costly and most permanent material and 
work, instead of that which the more immediate interests of the existing speculators might 
prescribe. They secure the possession of the capital subscribed, and the revenue as 
received, and stipulate for a right to charge interest on all money, even though advanced 
out of the railway capital. They stipulate for the right to prescribe and regulate the fares 
of the railway, bargaining for themselves that their mails shall be carried free of charge, and 
their troops and stores at the lowest rates. They stipulate for the right to regulate the 
number of trains to be run, and the rate at which they shall travel; for the repair and 
maintenance of the road and works, and for the supply of such a plant as they may consider 
necessary, and for the liberty to execute the repairs themselves, and charge the railway 
company with the cost of them, if not executed when required, and to their satisfaction. 

They stipulate for the right to regulate and audit the whole of the railway expenditure—to 
prescribe the charges that shall appertain to revenue, and to allow only such expenditure as 
they shall certify. They secure all these provisions by the appointment of an ex-officio 
director, and assume and exercise a right of supervision and control both in London and in 
India, not only by the Home and Local Government, but by officers representing them in 
both places. Finally, they stipulate for the right to purchase the railway at the expiration 
of 25 or 50 years from the date of the lease either for money or an annuity. 

It is obvious that these stipulations not only involve great advantage to the East India 
Company, but leave the railway company tied and bound in their hands. The power in all 
things is in the will of the East India Company; the executive only, in the hands of the 
railway company, as the agents, to do their pleasure. Could the East India Company sub¬ 
stantially have had more power if they taken the construction of the railways upon them¬ 
selves ? Could they have obtained the money more easily, or have paid a less price for it ? 

Finally, could they by that or any other mode have attained the outlay of so many millions 
of British capital, under a simple obligation to repay it in the form of an annuity for 99 
years ? 

On the other hand, is it possible that any association of capitalists could be found to 
undertake the construction of such works at such a distance, and under such circumstances, 

Avithout a clear and satisfactory guarantee, independent of all risks, of such a rate of interest 
as would be an adequate return for the capital so employed. The ingredient of estimated 
profit is by the nature of the arrangements Avithdrawn from the undertaking. What remains 
but the guarantee as the inducement, not to say the justification, for the venture ? It is 
true that there is an expectation of profit beyond the rate of guarantee, because the parties 
investing in the undertaking trust to the East India Company as a gox-ernment, to exercise 
their power with reason and equity, and to the prospects of the railways, as possessing 
inherent merit, ensuring profit, even under unfavourable circumstances. But it Avould be 
unreasonable to expect that the confidence of any shareholder in the East India Company, 
or the railway system, or both, would be sufficient to induce him to risk his money in an 
undertaking every productive element of Avhich Avas under the control, and in the hands of a 
body whose interests were not only not identical Avith his own, but on some points absolutely 
conflicting Avith them. 

Upon all these grounds, and many more that might be stated, it is clear that it Avould be 
0 . 61 . Q Q 3 unreasonable 


o. 



304 


APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE 


Appendix, No. 4 . 


unreasonable to expect that railways in India should be undertaken on the scale and subject 
to the conditions which appear to be considered desirable, without the guarantee. It 
remains to say a few words upon the question, whether the East India Company should 
be prepared to relinquish the control and stipulated advantages embodied in the existing 
system ; and whether, if willing to do so, capital for future railways could be raised without 
a guarantee. 

The first proposition thus enunciated is one peculiarly for the Court of Directors. 
Assuming companies willing to embark in railways in India without a guarantee, it might 
be well worthy of the consideration of the Government whether they should not be permitted 
to do so. If they did, it must of course be stipulated that the companies should be free to 
select their own lines and route; prescribe their own mode of Construction; stipulate for 
iheir own rates of fare; be paid alike by the Government as by individuals for the carriage 
of mails, troops, and stores; receive their land free of cost; and be the guardians and comp¬ 
trollers of their own capital and financial arrangements. 

Assuming the East India Company to be willing to leave the railway companies free 
on all these points, provided the railway companies would relinquish the principle of a 
guarantee, would the railway companies be better or worse by the arrangement ? In 
considering this question, let us see what the railway companies gain by the guarantee. 
The guarantee secures them a certain rate of interest until the line is open, with power 
then and thenceforth to relinquish it, and receive back their capital. But no association of 
capitalists would be found to subscribe their capital for a railroad in India without first satis¬ 
fying themselves that it would yield a much larger rate of interest than any guarantee 
hitherto conceded. There exists no authority sufficiently certain to satisfy the British public 
of such inherent prospects in any line of railway in India, and therefore it must be assumed 
that the project of obtaining money without the guarantee must at once be abandoned. If the 
fact could be established, it is obvious that the company w'ould in every respect be better by 
the withdrawal of the stipulations of the contract. Having selected a profitable line, they 
would then invest their capital as paid up (calling it up only as the necessity arose); they 
would pay the current interest out of the capital so invested; they would execute the line 
with all rapidity, and on the result the interest advanced pending construction would be 
a simple and not a heavy addition to the capital; they would construct their works and 
conduct all their arrangements on the simplest and least expensive principle; and they 
would work the line in such a manner, and at such rates, as regard to their own interests 
presci'ibed. 

In all these respects their position would be far better than it is at present. The line would 
be constructed much more rapidly ; the cost would be induced greatly; and the whole control 
of their own interests would be in the hands of their own administration. 

But it is in vain to speculate on this point, unless the money necessary for the purpose 
could be raised without the guarantee, and a little consideration will show that this cannot be 
accomplished. The capital for Indian railways is required on a large scale, and with promp¬ 
titude, independently of the periodical fluctuations of the money-market. Under the present 
arrangements it is derived from a class of persons who are not essentially speculators. The 
stock has for some time been sought for permanent, in many cases for trust, investment, and 
this is increasing daily. It is the guarantee that produces this effect. 

The portion which would be subscribed by speculators without the guarantee would, under 
any circumstances, be insignificant; while, on the other hand, that obtainable, if free scope 
be given to the disposition to treat the stock as in,the nature of a government security, is 
almost unlimited. The Government of India, therefore, if the railways are important to 
them, are the paities most interested in giving the guarantee, as, without it, it would be vain 
to hope that money would flow from England into India as it has done, and is at present 
doing, as freely as it is called for. 

But it may be urged, that the time has not arrived for considering the necessity of 
encouraging further railways in India. The three trunk lines are not complete, and there 
are two others in progress; these will require a large outlay, and it has not yet been ascer¬ 
tained with certainty that they will be profitable. 

If there were any risk of the new railways interfering with the subscription of the 
capital for those under contract, it would be matter of grave doubt whether they ought to 
be now enci uraged. Or, if there were any serious doubt of a value in the railways to the 
revenues and resources and material interests of the Indian Empire equal to the burden 
of the guarantee, the same considerations would arise. But the time is past for the former, 
and I assume that there is no doubt, in reference to the latter point, that there are numerous 
lines of railway the construction of which, whatever their immediate results to the companies 
undertaking them, would have the effect of enhancing the revenues and resources of India to 
an extent far beyond their cost, in the form of an annual guaranteed interest. As to these, 
it appears to be a most desirable object to secure the capital while it can be procured, and to 
employ it to the extent, first, of making the necessary surveys and arrangements, and after¬ 
wards at such rate of speed as is consistent with the progress of the existing trunk lines now 
in hand, in the construction of the new' lines. The advantages of such a course appear to 
be beyond a doubt. Already, even under the adverse circumstances of a rate of interest 
hitherto unexampled, there is a disposition to invest moneys freely in distant and uncertain 
speculations. Undertakings in which Great Britain has no interest, but which are likely to 
be attended with results menacing to her welfare, are only awaiting a fall in the money- 
market to absorb our resources. Contracts have been entered into for railways in Russia, at 
an outlay of some thirty millions sterling. France is about, in the course of the year, to 

enter 


305 


SELECT COMMITTEE ON EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 

enter upon an outlay of eight to ten millions sterling for further railways in that country. Appendix, No. 

English capitalists have in immediate contemplation railways in Austria, to the extent of - 

many millions. In Spain and Portugal large outlays of a similar nature are alike in pre¬ 
paration. Expenditure amounting to many millions is under immediate discussion for banks 
and railways in Turkey ; and similar works in our colonies and other distant countries are in 
contemplation. Nearly if not all these undertakings are encouraged by the prospect of a 
guaranteed interest, and most of them will be greedily sought by British capitalists, so soon 
as money becomes more plentiful. Can it be doubted, that it is the policy and interest of 
the nation and of the East India Company, to anticipate these proceedings by taking up all 
money which can be profitably employed in our own Indian empire on works of manifest 
public importance, rather than to allow it to be absorbed in undertakings of questionable 
value to the speculators, and still more questionable result to the interests of the nation? 

But even still stronger grounds exist for this policy in the state of political events affecting 
our Indian dominions. It is said by some persons, that India in its internal position is free 
from risk of events making the existence of first-class roads essential. Recent experience 
has proved the contrary. But if it were otherwise, the events of the last few months show 
that her territories are liable to be menaced from without. It is unnecessary to enter on the 
contingency which may make the power of moving and concentrating troops with rapidity 
a most momentous object. Experience has shown that the people of India, however quiet 
in time of peace, are ready for an outbreak under any menacing state of external appearances. 

Who can say how soon such a state of things may develope, or what may be the value of 
lines of railway traversing and intersecting the country ? 

It is for the East India Company, as the Government of India, to consider whether they 
should be backward in undertaking and encouraging these great works, and lose the oppor¬ 
tunity of securing the capital for the purpose, while it is open to them. 

I have to apologise for troubling you at so much length, and have only to plead the vast 
importance of the subject as my excuse for doing so. 

I have, &c. 

(signed) Charles Freslifield. 

P. S .—l propose to send a copy of this letter to the directors of the Oude Railway 
Company. 


0.61, 


4 . 


QQ 4 









. 

•- ■ 






. 





* 
















I 


N D E 


X 



REPO it T 


FROM THE 

SELECT COMMITTEE 


EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS). 


Ordered , by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 
13 July 1858 . 




^16—I. 













































































[ iii ] 


ANALYSIS OF INDEX. 


ALPHABETICAL and CLASSIFIED LIST of the Principal Headings in the following Index, with the 

Paging at which they will be respectively found. 


page 

i 

- 4 

- 24 

■ 47 

- 53 


AGENTS IN INDIA . 

Board of Control - 
Guarantee 

Preliminary Negotiations - 
Supervision, I. - 

Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway : 

1. Approval of the Line by the Authorities in 
India -----.-4 

2 . Delay before the sanction by the Home 

Government of the section between Surat 
and Bombay ; importance of this portion 
of the Line ------ 4 

3. Route proposed to be taken by the Railway 5 

4. Progress of the Works - - - - 5 

5. Vexation and delay through the Government 

Supervision ------ 5 

6 . Engineering Difficulties 5 

7. Staff . 5 

8 . Traffic - - - - - - - 5 

9. Importance, in point of Cost, 0 /"Expedition in 

Construction ----- 6 

Sleepers, 3. 51 

Bricks: 

1. Easi /radio Railway - 

2 . Madras Railway - 

Bridges. 

Boarae Bridge ------ 

Bungalows : 

1. Easi /radio Railway - 

2. Madras Railway - - - 

Commercial and Political Advantages if the Railways 
Construction : 

1. Power of Government in regard to the Con¬ 
struction of the Works - 

, 2. Disposition at one period in the Court of 

Directors to undertake the Construction 
themselves ------ 

3 . Advantages respectively of Construction by 
Government and by the Companies - 

4. Excellent manner in which the Construction 
ha's been carried out - 

5. Question as to the advantage of the Telesco¬ 
pic mode of Construction - 

Contracts -------- 

Supervision ------- 

Contracts ; 

1 . Generally as to the difficulties and delays in 
connexion with the Contracts - 

2 . Advantages respectively of the Contract 
System, and of the Departmental System 
of Construction - 

3. East India Railway - 

4. Great Indian Peninsula Railway 

5. Madras Railway - 

Supervision, II. 4 . 


6 

6 

6 

5i 


9 

9 

10 


- 10 


11 
11 
- 11 

11 

12 
53 


12 


12 

12 

J 3 

*3 

55 


Costs ------ 

Construction - 

Contracts ----- 

Eas* Indian Railway, 14 

Great Indian Peninsula Railway, 5 

Madras Railway, 8 - - - 

Supervision - 

Court of Directors - 

Construction, 2 - ... 

Guarantee - 

Preliminary Negotiations 
Supervision, I. - 


PAGE 

■ 13 

- 10 

- 12 

- 21 

- 24 

- 32 

- 53 

- 13 

- 11 

- 24 

- 47 

- 53 


East Indian Railway : 

1. Origin and Objects of the formation of the 

Company 

2. Preliminary proceedings of the Company, 

and Negotiations and lapse of time before 
a Guarantee was obtained - 

3. Capital of the Company ; Amount paid up - 

4. Expenditure in Preliminary Expenses 

5. Progress made in the Construction of the 

Works . 

6. Contracts - - - 

7. Explanation and approval of the adoption of 

the Indirect or Ganges Valley Route 

8. Preference given to the Direct Route over 

that by the Ganges Valley - 

9. Length of the Line to Delhi or Meerut 

10. Heavy Character of the Works - 

11. Respects in which constructed for a Double 

Line of Rails 

12 . Government Supervision ; Complaints, and 
Explanation hereon 

13. Staff; refusal of an application for an 


- 16 


16 

17 

17 

18 

18 

- 19 

19 

20 
20 

- 20 
d 

- 20 


increase 

- 

- 

- 

- 

21 

14 . Rate of Expenditure in Construction - 

- 

21 

15 . Amount of Traffic, and Rates charged - 

16 . Profits on the portion of the Line now 

in 

21 

operation 

- 


- 

- 

21 

Agents in India - 

- 


- 

- 

1 

Bricks, 1 - 





6 

Bungalows, 1 - - 

- 


- 

- 

9 

Cawnpore to Allahabad 

- 


- 

- 

10 

Coal and Coal Traffic - 

- 


- 

- 

10 

Gradients - 





23 

Inland Transport 

- 


- 


26 

Inundations 

- 


- 

- 

26 

Jubbulpore Extension - 

- 


- 

- 

26 

Lahore - - - 





30 

Management 

- 


- 

- 

38 

Mutiny - 

- 


- 


40 

O 

Pumping Engines 



- 


48 

Santhal Rebellion 

- 


- 


49 

Soane Bridge 

- 


- 

- 

5 i 

Timber - - - 





55 

Expenditure - 





22 

Freights - - - - 






Gradients - - - - 







Alfi_T 






























ANALYSIS OF INDEX. 


Great Indian Peninsula Railway: page 

1 . Origin and Outline of the Undertaking - 523 

2. Progress made with the Works - - - 23 

3 . Contracts - - - - - - 23 

4 . Heavy Works over the Thul and Bhore 

Ghauts , Sfc . ------ 24 

5 . Cost - -- -- --24 

6. Traffic Receipts and Expenditure - - 24 

7 . Government Supervision - - - *24 

8. Other Evidence Generally - - - 24 

Agents in India -------1 

Guarantee - - . -24 

Madras Railway, 2 .3 1 

Peel, Sir Robert (the late) - - - - "47 

Wilson , Mr. ------ - 60 

Indents --------- 25 

Inland Transport - ‘26 

Labour - -- -- -- --29 

Local Governments (India) ------ 30 

Supervision, II. - - - - - - - 53 

Madras Railway : 

1 . Preliminary Proceedings in connexion with 

the sanction of the Scheme - - - 30 

2. Varying Rates of Guarantee - - - 31 

3 . Amount of Capital paid up - - - 31 

4 . Sanction of the Cuddapah Route, instead of 

the Bangalore Route ; merits of each - 31 

5 . Line to Bellary - - - - 31 

6. Bangalore Branch - - - - 31 

7 . Progress of the Works - - - - 31 

8. Cos* . 32 

9 . Traffic . --32 

10. Profits ----- - 32 

11 . Question of Construction by the Madras 

Government - - - - "33 

12. Native Contracts - - - - - 33 

13 . Staff . 33 

14 . Absence of a System of Transfer of Shares 

in Madras ------ 34 

15 . Improvement if the Executive Management 

•were local ------ 34 

16 . Generally as to the Government Super¬ 

vision of the Works; Complaints and 
Explanations hereon - - - - 34 

17. Complaint and Explanation as to the Ad¬ 

vances of Money by the Local Govern¬ 
ment ------- 35 

IS. Complaint and Explanation as to the system 
of Monthly Reports, and Publication 
adopted by Government - - - 36 

] 9 . Complaint as to the Supervision exercised 

over the Traffic Arrangements - - 36 

20. Stoppage of the Works in the Salem Dis¬ 

trict, with the vieiv to the adoption of a 
different Route - - - - - 36 

21. Branch Line to the Government Salt 

Depot ------ 37 

22. Chief Engineer; way in which his Duties 

were fulfilled - - - - - 37 

23 . Proceedings of the Court of Directors in 

regard to the local Supervision - "37 

Agents in India ------ 1 

Beypore Harbour ------ 4 

Bricks, 2- - -- -- - - 6 

Bungalows, 2-------9 


Madras Railway — continued . 
Cauvery Bridge 
Competition 

Kudulhoondy Bridge - 
Pumping Engines 
Sleepers, 2 
Waggon Iron Work 


PAGE 


Preliminary Negotiations - 
East India Railway, 2 
Jubbulpore Extension - 
Madras Railway, 1 
Wilson, Mr. 


Profits - - - - 

East India Railway, 16 
Madras Railway, 10 - 


Progress of Works ------ 

Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway, 4 
Construction ------ 

Contracts ------- 

East India Railway, 5 - - - - 

Great Indian Peninsula Railway, 2 
Inland Transport - 
Madras Railway, 7 ----- - 

Mutiny ------- 

Santhal Rebellion ----- 

Supervision ------ 


Scinde and Punjaub Railway 
Indus Navigation 


Supervision : 


I. In England - 
II. In India: 

1. Importance of the principle of Govern¬ 

ment Supervision over the Works - 

2. Generally as to the exercise of Super¬ 

vision - - - - - 

3. Consideration of the fitness of 

Officers appointed to the task 

4. Effect of the system of Contracts in 

facilitating Supervision 

5 . Respects in which desirable to amend 

the present System 
Board of Control - 

Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway, 5 
Bungalows ------ 

Construction, 1 - - - - - 

Consulting Engineer (Court <f Directors) 

Court of Directors - - - - — 

Dalhousie, Lord - 

Discretionary Powers - - - - 

East India Railway, 12 
Expenditure ------ 

Great Indian Peninsula Railway, 7 
Indents - • • . 1 

Local Governments 
Madras Railway , 16 . 20 
Responsibility - - - 

Scinde and Punjaub Railway 

Timber - 

Sleepers - 


9 

10 

29 

48 

5i 

56 


47 

17 

26 

30 

60 


■ 47 

- 21 

- 32 


48 

5 

11 

12 
18 
23 
26 
31 

40 

49 
53 


49 

26 


Sleepers : 

1. Difficulty as regards Supplies of Wooden 

Sleepers ------ 50 

2. Complaint and Explanation in the case of 

the Madras Railway - - - - 51 

3. Experimental Supply of Iron Sleepers; in¬ 

creased Supplies recommended - - 51 


• 53 


53 


" 54 


54 


- 55 























[ ■ ] 


INDEX. 


[N.B .—In this Index the Numerals following Rep. p. refer to the Paging of the Report; the 
Figures following the Names of the Witnesses to the Questions in the Evidence;, 
and those following App. p. to the Paging of the Appendix.] 


A. 

AGENTS in India. Important and onerous functions of Mr. Palmer, the East Indian 

Raiiway Company’s agent at Calcutta, Noad 749-763-Practice of Mr. Palmer to teport 

cases of obstructive interference to the Board of Directors in England, ib. 765-Objection 

to the system of a directing board in India for the execution of the works ; a single respon¬ 
sible officer is much better, Kennedy 1912, 1913-Statement as to the advantage that 

would probably ensue if the Madras Company were represented in Madras by a Board 

rather than bv an agent. Pears 2384-2389. 3919-3924-Advantage in the companies 

beini; represented in India by individuals rather than by Boards, Baker 2525-2527 ; Sir 
J. Melvill 3604. 

All applications for money for the Madras Railway, and all communications with the 
Madras Government, are made by the railway company’s agent at Madras, Walker 2869 

-Ample powers entrusted to the company’s agent at Madras, ib. 2950, 2951-The 

interests of the Great Indian Peninsula Company are represented at Bombay by five 
directors, two of whom are natives of high standing; advantage of this system over that 

of a mere local agent, Watt 3111-3120-Very onerous duties of witness when agent of 

the East Indian Railway Company in India, Sir M. Stephenson 4001. 

Ayricultural and Mineral Resources. Great importance of railways in developing the 
agricultural resources and natural products of the country, Kennedy 1846-1851. 

Andrew William Patrick. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Chairman of the Scinde Railway 

Company, 3153-Survey of the line between Kurrachee and Kotree, a distance of 110 

miles, in 1853, bv order of the Government, who contemplated constructing the line 

themselves, 3154-3159-Formation through witness, in December 1854 , of the piesent 

companv, in consequence of the information sent home from India, 3158. 3160- 

Official application for a guarantee in January 1855, and grant of the Act of Incorpora¬ 
tion in July 1855, the Ea>t India Company having given a guarantee of five per cent, on 

500,000 l.\ 3161-3163. 3274, 3275-The line was commenced on the 29th April last, 

3164. 

Paiticulars as to ihe delay incurred before the commencement of the works between 
Kurrachee and Kotree, on account of the numerous surveys ordered with a view to the 
adoption of a different route; unjustifiable character of these surveys; local authorities 

responsible for them, 3165-3178. 3242-3250-Mr. Frere, Commissioner in Scinde, has 

been from the first completely favourable to the original scheme, 3167, 3168-The 

home Government had never any idea of deviating from the original plan, 3172. 

The entire line to Kotree is being made under contract by Messrs. Bray, the company 

providing the permanent way, 3180, 3181-About eighty miles of permanent way have 

been sent to Kurrachee, 3182-Considerable natural facilities for the formation of the 

line, 3183-3186-Scheme of river steam navigation from Hyderabad to Moultan 

•embraced in the project of the Scinde Company, 3187-3192-Schemes for the exten¬ 
sion of the railway to Oomercote and Deesa, 3189. 3199. 3200-Scheme of the Punjaub 

Railway, as embraced by the Scinde Company, 3193-3196* 3 221 ' 3 22 3 * 

Some of the recent surveys have been made at the expense of Government, 3197- 

Different amounts guaranteed respectively for the Scinde Railway, the Punjaub Railway, 

and the Indus Steam Flotilla, 3198. 3202, 3203. 3224-3233-Difficulties experienced 

as regards the determination of the proper kind of boat for the navigation of the Indus, 

3204-3206-Obstacles to the progress of the undertaking, through the Commissioner 

and the deputy consulting engineer in Scinde being obliged constantly to refer to the 
Bombay authorities before sanctioning proceedings, 3207, 3208. 3211-3215. 3251- 

3 2 59 * 

Representations made by witness in 1855 and 1857, with a view to larger powers of 
discretion being vested in Mr. Frere ; enlargement of these powers, through orders from 
the Home Government, but not by any means to the extent desirable, 3207-3220. 3251- 

026* q2q6 T2Q7 _Decided approval of Government supervision it confined to the 

A settlement 
















2 


AND 


B A K 


Report. 1857-8— continued. 


Andrew , William Patrick. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued . 

settlement of great principles, 3219. 3240, 3241-Necessity of the guarantee of five 

per cent, as a means of raising capital, 3234-Intention of the East India Company to 

improve the harbour of Kurrachee; the harbour has been very favourably reported upon, 

3238. 

Origin and character of the first communications by witness on the subject of the 

navigation of the Indus from Hyderabad to Moultan, 3263-3273-Reference to the 

date and character of Mr. Bourne’s plan for the navigation of the Indus ; a subsidy has 

been granted for it, 3265, 3266. 3283-3285-Witness considers his scheme to be very 

important in a commercial point of view, and of infinite importance in a military point of 
view, 3276. 

Further explanation as to the use proposer! to be made of the river, and as to the 
present character of the navigation; profitable traffic expected, 3277-3295-Encou¬ 

ragement by the Court of Directors of the steam navigation of the Indus, 3290-3292 

-Witness considers that his company have experienced an unusual amount of red-tape 

opposition on account of the inadequate powers of the local authorities, 3298-The 

contractors are bound to have the line in working order in two years and a half from the 
date of being put in possession of the land, 3299. 


B. 

Baker , Colonel William Erskine. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Colonel in the Bengal 

Engineers 3300-From March 1851 until March 1855, was consulting engineer to the 

Government of India, in the railway department, and from the latter date until November 
1857 held the additional office of secretary to the Government of India for the Public 

Works Department, 3301-The two offices above-mentioned have since been separated 

on the recommendation of witness, 3302--Former employment of witness on the Ganges 

Canal and other public works in India; he has also studied the construction of railways 
in this country, 3303. 

Duties of witness in regard to the railways as consulting engineer to the Government 

of India, 3304-It is only on very important questions that the local governments refer 

to the central government, 3305, 3306. 3315-3317-Desire of the Indian Government 

that the supervision should be exercised so as to maintain a real check on the operations 
of the engineers, without doing so in a manner vexatious to them, or calculated to retard 
the progress of the works, 3307, 3308. 3329. 

Way in which witness exercised his functions in regard to the engineering details of 
the East India Railway ; deference shown, when proper, to the views of the railway 
engineer, 3309-3311-Extent to which witness considered himself responsible in¬ 
regard to the works, 3312, 3313-Practice of the Government in checking the expen¬ 

diture ; sanction of late years of the great majority of the indents without the previous 

sanction of the Supreme Government, 3314-3317-Considerable latitude given to the 

officers of the East Indian line in regard to contingent expenses, previous sanction not 
being required at all, 3318-3325. 

Inaccuracy of a certain statement as to certain sanctions being required before the 
appointment in India of any officer on the East India Railway, 3326, 3327. 3393-3395 

-The accounts of expenditure and the progress reports were the only returns that 

were expected from the engineers, 3328, 3329-Latitude allowed as regards the amount 

and distribution of labour on the line, 3330, 3331-Insufficiency of progress reports as 

the only means of checking the proceedings of the engineers, 3332. 3390, 3391. 

Importance of easy gradients on the railways in India, 3333-3336-Explanation as 

to a permission by witness to Mr. Sibley to reduce the gradients wherever necessary in 
his district of the East India Railway, to one in 500; 3334-3338-Grounds for pre¬ 

ferring the Ganges route to the diiect route to Mirzapoor, 3339, 3340——The direct line 
might have been sooner completed, and at less cost, but the gradients upon it must have 
been very heavy, 3340. 

Grounds for concluding that the works should be carried out by the railway company’s 
engineers rather than by contract 3341, 3342--—Principal defects of the contract system 

in the construction of the lines, 3342-3345-Failure of contractors on the East Indian 

line, and consequent delay in the progress of the works; causes of these failures, 3344- 

3349. 3426-3428-Explanation and defence of the action of the Indian Government 

and of witness in regard to their sanctioning the letting of the works on the East Indian 
line by contracts taken in India, 3350-3362. 

Circumstances under which witness sanctioned contracts which he felt could not be 

completed in the stipulated time, 3355-3362. 3408-3411-Grounds upon which witness 

defends his recommendation of a brick bridge over the Soane, rather than an iron one, 

3363'337 *• 34 02 “34°h'- 3429-3431-Evidence to the effect that with proper previous 

arrangements bricks might have been procured in Bengal in adequate quantities for 

the 





















BAKER. 


3 


Report, 1857-8 —continued. 


Baker, Colonel William Erskine. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

the bridge over the Soane and for the works generally, 3368-3371. 3402-3406. 3429- 

3431- 

Statement in explanation of the refusal of Government to sanction a certain scale of 
engineering staff pioposed by Mr. Turnbull, the chief engineer of the East India Railway, 

337 2 -R is not the practice to refer to the Supreme Government for the decision of 

any questions about demands for increased staff in the Presidencies, 3373~3375- 

Impression that it must have been for want of proper information that sanction has been 

refused to the construction of some bungalows on the East India line, 3376-As regards 

a delay in the supply of some pumping engines, it is not in any way attributable to 

Government supervision, 3377-Doubt as to the accuracy of a statement by Mr. Sibley 

in regard to the checks imposed in the case of an indent for lime, 3378-3380. 

Entire inaccuracy of Mr. Sibley’s evidence as to the employment of forced labour on 
almost all the public works in Bengal, 3381. 3417-Relative rates of pay on Govern¬ 
ment works and on the railway, 3382. 3418-Particular classes of natives employed 

on the railway works, 3383-3386-Propriety of a refusal to sanction tire purchase of 

some timber by the engineer, the purposes of the purchase not having been explained, 
3387 - 

Belief that Government might have constructed the railways more economically and 
quickly than the companies, and as efficiently, 3388. 3412-3416. 3459.3461-Mili¬ 

tary engineers could not of themselves or without some previous experience on railways 

have properly carried out the works, 3389. 3453, 3454-Necessity of ihe Government 

supervision as a check upon the expenditure, 3390, 3391-Disposition at times of the 

engineers to undue establishment expenses, 3392-The Supreme Government decides 

as to the direction or loute of each line, but does not interfere in the detailed execution, 

3396 - 3398 . 

Respect in which there are greater natural facilities respectively in Bombay and 

Bengal in the construction of railways, 3400, 3401-Between Cawnpore and Agra 

the works are only waiting for the arrival of the permanent way, 3407-Extent and 

character of the Oude labour as employed on works in Bengal, 3418-3424-The Sant- 

hal insurrection and the mutiny are a main cause of the delay m the construction of the 

East India Railway, 3425-Increased works on the Gances Valley line in order to 

provide against the periodical large inundations, the effects of which were not at first pro¬ 
perly calculated upon, 3431-3434— —The engineering difficulties on the line are of an 
extraordinary character, 3435, 3436- 


Causes of the much less cost of railways in India than England, 3437-The Supreme 

Government is not altogether satisfied with the progress of construction, 3438, 3439- 

The Government is most anxious to do all it can towards expediting the works, 3439. 

3442, 3443-As little time as possible is occupied in India in the settlement of indents, 

3440, 3441-Efficiency of some civil engineers recently obtained by the Indian Govern¬ 

ment from this country for employment on public works, 3444-3446. 


Importance of a military rather than a civil engineer for the supervision of the railway 

engineers, 3447-3454-Efficiency on the whole of the railway engineers in Bengal, 

3455 > 3456-The Government of India, through Lord Dalhousie, was in favour of the 

works being undertaken by the companies, 3457, 345 8 - 3460-Witness concurs with 

Colonel Pears in his view that the capital subscribed does not represent so much 
private enterprise; the money is merely a loan, and the shareholders are free from risk, 

3461 - 3463 - 

[Second Examination.]—Extent and object of the discretionary power vested in the 
Lieutenant-governor of the North-Western Provinces in regard to the railway works 

within his jurisdiction, 3464-3467-Explanation as to the extent to which the works 

of the East India Railway are constructed for a double line, 3468-3471- Explanatory 

statement as to the time occupied in the construction of the trunk road from Calcutta to 
Delhi; it is now all open for traffic, 3475, 3476 - 


Grounds for the interference by Government in regard to the traffic arrangements and 
the rates of lares, 3477-3485— —Respects in whicli Government interference might be 
less exercised in the case of lines executed entirely by competent contractors, 3486-8491 
Large employment of the military engineers in Bengal in civil works, 3492, 3493. 

o-or—orr>Q- Further reference to the rate of wages respectively on the railway works, 

and public works; the pay is sufficient to provide food for the men and their families, 

3494 - 3500 - 


Inadequacy of a simple audit of expenditure as a check upon expenditure; necessity 

of previous sanction, 3501-3504- The r2turns squired from the engineers have been 

necessary and have not caused delay in construction, 3505-3508-Ihe greater value 

of the indirect than of the direct route to Mirzapoor will repay ihe greater time 111 construc¬ 
tion, 3509, 3510_Witness is disappointed with the progress of the East India line, 

but not with the engineers’ exertions, 35 11 - 


416—I. 


The 


















4 


B A K 


BOM 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Baker , Colonel William Erskine. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

The provision of permanent way has generally been in advance of the works, 3515, 
3514.35-28-Measures taken or to be taken by the company for sending the perma¬ 

nent way up the country; impression that ihe best means have not been employed, 3515- 

3521-Longer time in construction if the railways had been made on the telescopic 

principle, 3523, 3524-Approval of an agent for the company at Calcutta rather than 

a Board there, 3525-3527-Operation of the colleges in India for the education of civil 

engineers, 3529-3534-Importance of the question of gradients in considering the 

value respectively of the Ganges Valley line, and of the direct line to Mirzapoor, 3540- 

3543* 

Baker , Colonel. Strong testimony to the efficiency of Colonel Baker as a public officer, 
and to his harmonious co-operation with the railway authorities, Sir M. Stephenson 
40 1 7. 

Bangalore. See Madras Railway, 4. 6. 

Bentinck, Lord William. Impression that Lord William Bentinck did not take any pro¬ 
minent part in promoting ihe construction of railways in India, Danvers 21-23-The 

great system of Lord W. Bentinck was steam-boat navigation for the rivers, Sir J. Melvill 
3867. 

Beypore Harbour. Object of placing the terminus of the Madras line at Beypore ; import¬ 
ance hen on of improving the inland navigation at this point, and also the harbour at 

Beypore, Pears 2463-2473-Doubt as to the Indian Government having taken any 

steps for improving the harbour at Beypore, Walker 2803-2805. 

Board of Control. The differences between the Court of Directors and the Board of Control 

were a main cause of the delay in the first commencement of the lines, Danvers 15. 24- 

Delay through the former system of refeience to the Board of Control before compliance 

with indents, Sir J. Melvill 3581-3585.3656-3659-Reference to the objections raised 

by the Board of Control to the terms first proposed, and to the considerable postponement 
thereby of the commencement of the works, ib. 3835-3845. 3869-3875. 

Consideration of the extent to which the Board of Control and the Court of Directors 
are hlameable for not having accepted the propositions of the originators of the railroads 
at an earlier period, Rep. p. vi. 

See also Guarantee. Preliminary Negotiations. Supervision, I. 

Bombay , Baroda, and Central India Railway.- 

1. Approval of the Line by the Authorities in India. 

2. Delay before the Sanction by the Home Government of the Section between 

Surat and Bombay ; Importance of this portion of the Line. 

3. Route proposed to be taken by the Railway. 

4. Progress of the Works. 

5. Vexation and Delay through the Government Supervision. 

6. Engineering Difficulties. 

7. Staff. 

8. Traffic. 

0. Importance , in point of Cost , of Expedition in Construction. 

1. Approval of the Line by the Authorities in India : 

Sanction by Lord Dalhousie and the Bombay Government of the Bombay and Baroda 

line, Danvers 222. 303, 304 ; Sir J. Melvill 3630-3632-Misapprehension under which 

Lord Dalhousie sanctioned the Baroda line without reference to the Home Government, 
Danvers 222. 

2. Delay before the Sanction by the Home Government of the Section between Surat 

and Bombay ; Importance of this portion of the Line: 

Explanation as to the delays in connexion with the sanction of the line from Bombay 
to Surat, Danvers 302-312. 

Considerable delay on account of the Home Government not having sanctioned till 
November 1857 the most important portion of the line, that is, from Bombay to Surat; 
belief that the refusal was on the part of the Board of Control, Kennedy 1773 - 1791 ' 

1865-1868-Unavailableness of Surat as a port of shipment, ib. 1787-1791--It has 

been impracticable to obtain freights to Surat, ib. 1787-1790. 2140. 

Objections to the Central Indian line being forced to join the Great Indian Peninsular 
line at some point near Bombay ; importance of an independent access to Bombay, and 

a separate terminus there, Kennedy 1802-1804. 1869-1871-Considerable importance 

of the line to Bombay on account of the facilities thereby for the conveyance of cotton 

from Guzerat, &c ; , ib. 1805-1813. 1820-1839. 2050, 2051. 2057-Obstacles raised to 

a separate line into Bombay further adverted to; anticipation that before long the 
objections of the Government may be removed, ib. 1865-1871. 2166, 2167. 


But 











BOMBAY. 


5 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway— continued. 

a * Delay before the Sanction by the Home Government of the Section, Sfc. _coni' 1 . 

But for Government interference, the best direction uould from the first have been 

to Sur-it °a hif m f’ f enned y l88 47 ~ Amount of population along the line from Bombay 
to Smut, although for portions of the line the population is scanty, there are several 
towns along the route, ib . 2041—2049. 2059-2077. 


Information as to the delay in sanctioning that poition of the Bombay and Baroda 
fine from Surat to Bombay; engineering difficulties and traffic prospects of this portion 
of the line. Sir J. Melvill 3596, 3597. 3677. 375 l - 37 6 3 * 3851-3853. 3904-3906. 


3 . Route proposed to be taken by the Railway : 

Examination relative to the route of the Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway, 
as recommended by witness; consideration of several objections raised to this line, more 

especially to ihe portion proposed between Bombay and Surat, Kennedy 2028 et serf. - 

Explanation as to the main object of the Bombay and Central India 1 ine; the principal 

branch, that is the Taptee line, was to go on to Mirzapore, ib. 2053-2056-Refusal 

hitherto to sanction an extension of the Baroda line via Indore to Agra, Sir J. Melvill 

3633 - 3641 . 


4 . Progress of the Works : 

Satisfactory progress being made with the Bombay, Baroda, and Central India 

Railway, Kennedy !7 7 * 2 -Witness delivers in a progress report of works on the first 

concession (143 miles) of line from Surat to Ahmedabad, framed to ascertain how far the 
rate of expenditure is in accordance with the original estimate, both as regards money 
and time, ib. 1872-No portion of the line is yet open, ib. 1932. 

Further statement as to the progress made with the works on the Bombay and Central 
India line ; if there were 600 miles in hand, they might be opened in about three years, 

Kennedy 2146, 2147-More advanced progress if the Company could have acted on 

the sanction of the line by the Governor-general, ib. 2161-2163. 


5 . Vexation and Belay, through the Government Supervision : 

Greater despatch in the construction of the line, but for Government intervention, 

Kennedy 1892-The present supervision is so harassing that it has nearly led to the 

resignation of a chief engineer on the line, ib. 1925-Statement as to the occurrence 

and extent of delay through the absence of power in Sir James Melvill to decide ques¬ 
tions at the Badway Board of witness’s Company, ib. 2166-2177-Instances of delay 

through the refusal to sanction the appointment of engineers, ib. 2178/ 2179-Way 

in which the supervision by the Government engineer in Bombay, Colonel Crawford, or 
his subordinate has disheartened the railway engineers and created delay, ib. 2181-2190. 
2204-2207. 


6. Engineering Bifficulties: 

Greater engineering difficulties on the line between Surat and Ahmedabad than between 

Surat and Bombay, Kennedy 1792, 1793-Difficulty at the present time in regard to, 

the line coming into Bombay; way in which this difficulty should be overcome, ib. 1794- 

1801. 1852-1871-Different gradients in different parts of the line, ib. 1855-1861- 

The question a* to the mode by which the line should approach Bombay arises at a 

point about thirty miles distant, 16.1873-Consideration as to the heavy nature of 

some of the works on the Bombay and Baroda line, more especially as regards the 
crossing of the Bassein and other inlets of the sea and of the Nerbudda, Taptee, and 
Whye rivers, ib. 2067-2084. 2148-2160. 

Heavy character of the works on the line in the crossing of numerous rivers, and of the 
Bassein Strait, Rep. p. vi. 

7 . Staff: 

On the Bombay and Central India Railway there are now one chief engineer, and 

tuentv-eioht assistants; how these are distributed, Kennedy 2113-2115-Practice on 

the line in regard to the agency employed in the inspection of the works during execu¬ 
tion ib. 2116-2118-Undue'impediments to the employment of an adequate staff of 

engineers ib. 2119, 2120-One engineer to every ten miles would amply repay the 

cost of the salaries, and would be a good establishment, ib. 2120. 



9 , Importance , 










6 


BOM 


B R I 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Bombay, B a rod a, and Central India Railway— continued. 

9 . importance, in point of Cost, of Expedition in Construction : 

Table containing a financial analysis of the Indian Government guarantee principle, as 
applied to the time to be occupied in the construction of the line of 335 miles between 
Bombay and Ahmednbad, and showing the great importance of expedition in construc¬ 
tion; data for this table considered, Kennedy 1958-1979. 1999- 

See also Sleepers, 3 . 

Branch Lines. Objection of the East India Railway Company to the formation of branch 
lines, Noad 1003. 

Brassey , Mr. Circumstances of Mr. Brassey having been dissuaded from entering into 
any contract with the East India Railway Company on account of the detailed Govern¬ 
ment supervision over the works, Noad 903, 904. 

Bricks .- 

1. Bast Indian Railway. 

2. Madras Railway. 

1. East Indian Railway : 

Immense quantity of bricks required for the construction of the works along the 

Ganges Valley line, Noad 475-477 -Considerable difficulties through want of bricks; 

blame attributable hereon to the Government engineers, and, in some degree, to those of 
the railway company, for not giving early information as to this scarcity, ib. 516. 521. 

621-625-A certain report by Mr. Turnbull towards the end of 1857, with reference to 

the brickwork, &c., was not considered satisfactory, and blame has in consequence been 

attached by the Company to its engineers, ib. 660, 661. 665, 666. 685-697-The use 

of bricks in India has been rather forced by the public authorities there, ib. 700, 701. 

Further explanation relative to the reports about the scarcity of bricks, and the steps 

taken by the company in consequence of such reports, Noad 742-745-Delay of 

several months before the Court of Directors decided upon the measures to be adopted 
on this subject, ib. 742-747. 

Further evidence as to the amount of blame attributable respectively to Mr. Turnbull, 
and other of the railway engineers, and to the Government engineers in not properly con¬ 
sidering the question of the supply of bricks; considerable lapse of time before Mr. 

Turnbull reported upon the matter, Noad 1014-1024. 1032-1034-Means for procuring 

ultimately an unlimited supply of bricks, but not within the time in which they are 

wanted, ib. 1016-1031-Very good bricks made by hand by the natives, ib. 1035. 

1037-The Company are sending out a large number of brick-making machines, ib. 

1036. 

Evidence to the effect that there are ample facilities in Bengal for making bricks to an 

unlimited extent, Freeman 1180-1184-Impression that delay had not arisen when 

witness left India, through any deficiency in the supply of bricks for the East India Rail¬ 
way, Kennedy 2095-2098-Evidence to the effect that with proper previous arrange¬ 

ments, bricks might have been procured in Bengal in adequate quantities for the bridge 
over the Soane, and for the works generally, Baker 3368-3371. 3402-3406. 3429-343!. 

2 . Madras Railway : 

Inconvenience and delay thiough witness having been without funds during six weeks 
of the brick-making season, Bruce 1428. 1432, 1433. 

There was no complaint of a want of funds for making bricks, Pears 3951. 

Further statement that bricks could not be procured for want of funds, Bruce 4088. 

Bridges. Particulars in connexion with the large bridges to be built over the Soane, the 
Mor, and the Hadjai, Noad 498-514. 526-531 ; Sibley 1065-1073-It is in con¬ 
templation to use more iron and less brickwork on the bridges, Noad 517-Explanation 

as to the mission of Mr. Rendel to India, to consult with Mr. Turnbull as to the pro¬ 
priety of latgely substituting iron for brickwork on the bridges, &c., ib. 684-687. 698, 
699-The bridges are much more costly than the heavy excavations, Sibley 1169. 

All the bridges must be constructed for double lines, Kennedy 1768-Reference to 

the bridging of the rivers as the great and almost the only practical impediment to rail¬ 
way construction in India, ib. 1969-1973. 1990-2011. 2026, 2027. 

Particulars as 10 the extent and cost of the works required for the more important 
bridges on the Madras line; time taken in the construction of certain bridges, Walker 

2701-2705-Peculiar method of construction in bridging the rivers on the Madras 

line, ib. 2706, 2707-Probability of increased expense if the bridges were built by 

contract, ib. 2708. 


Impediment 












B R I 


B RU 


7 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Bridges —continued. 

Impediment to the rapid construction of the works through the numerous rivers to be 
crossed, and the heavy character of the bridging works Rep. p. vi. 

See also Soane Bridge. 


brace George Barclay. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Civil engineer, 1225_Was 

employed for about a year at the Calcutta end of the East India Railway, and was sub¬ 
sequently for four years in Madras, as the chief engineer of the Madras" Railway, 1226 
- -Account of the early history of the Madias Railway ; the scheme assumed its present 

development about the end of 1853 5 1227-1235-The Madras Government wished to 

make the railway themselves, 1231-Witness and two assistants commenced the 

surveys for the experimental line from Madras to Arcot in April 1853, and the line was 
opened on the 1st July 1856; 1236-1240. 

Reference to some of witness’s reports in explanation of the operation of the system of 
constructing the Madras line without contractors ; success of the system, 1241, 1242 
--The Company conducted its operations in remote districts without any direct pro¬ 
tection from Government, 1242-1244-Completion by the present time of ninety-seven 

miles of the line, 1245, 1246-The progress made with th.e works has on the whole been 

very satisfactory, 1247. 

Evidence comdemnatory of the minute Government supervision exercised over witness, 

1247 et seq. -Effect of the minuteness of the supervision to retard the progress of 

the works, 1248——Inadequate staff always emyloyed on the undertaking, ib. -Witness 

accords the best intentions to the Government officers in the exercise of their superinten¬ 
dence, 1249. 

Unsound principle on which the Government supervision was based, 1250. 1262- 

Witness complained against the undue interference with his mode of action, but no 

redress was obtained, 1251-Reference to certain complaints by Colonel Pears, the 

Government engineer, and by the Madras Government in regard to the progress of ihe 

works; injustice of these complaints, 1252-1255. 1259-1261-Labour was after a 

time readily procured, 1257-The labourers were paid regularly every week, 1258. 

Grounds for complaint against the practice in regard to the publication of reports by 
Colonel Pears, and the Madras Government adverse to the conduct of the works; unfair¬ 
ness in witness not having had any opportunity of publicly answering these criticisms 

upon the engineers, 1263-1276. 1280 et seq. -Further reference to the circumstance of 

the Madras Government having been anxious themselves to construct the railways, 1277- 

1280. 1306-1312-Witness chiefly complains against the monthly reports of Colonel 

Pears and the censures conveyed in them; they were contradicted by his annual repoits, 
1280-1286. 1353- 1 360, 1 374 - 1 378 - 

Fair and impartial action of the Court of Directors as opposed to that of the local 

government in regard to the progress and conduct of the works, 1290-1292-Statement 

as to certain orders having been sent out by the Court of Directors wiih regard to the 
local supervision and the publication of official reports ; the former of these orders has not 

been properly received, 1292-1297. 1330-1337-Effect of the unjust censures of the 

Government engineer to check the energy of the railway engineers, 1313. 137 2-1 374 * 

Each section of the line might be opened in two years after its commencement; this 

result has been attained hitherto, 1314-1318-Reference to the views of Mr. Fisher, 

and other settlers in Madras, as to the progress of the works, 1321-1324. 1347-1352 

--Impression that almost all the engineers 0 n the line have been censured, 1326-1328 

__Difficulty as regards the supply of skilled native labour, but not as regards unskilled 

labour, 1339-1346. 

Colonel Pears’ monthly reports were made upon the reports to him by witness, 1361- 

1365 _Although a very good military en*>ineer, Colonel Pears was not qualified to 

give a proper opinion upon the progress of the railway, 1366-1368-Previous to the 

annual report, and at other times, Colonel Pears personally inspected the works, 1369- 

237!_Monthly reports by Colonel Pears were unnecessary and injurious, 1372-1378- 

Past experience of witness in civil engineering, 1379, 1380-Pleasant character of the 

verbal communications between Colonel Pears and witness, 1381, 1382-Colonel Pears 

offered no suggestions for remedying the faults of which he complained, 1382-1384. 

Difficulties in regard to the provision of bungalows for the engineers and their 
assistants, on account of the objection of the local government to sanction a proper 

expenditure for the purpose, 1385-1413-Redress through the Home Government in 

the matter of the bungalows, 1389, 139 >> 139 2 -Nature of the buildings erected as 

bungalows; class of building required, 1393-1411. 

Instances of the exercise of Government control in regard to gradients, curves, &c., 

where the effect was in each case to increase the cost, 1414-1416-Instances of 

vexatious interference in trifling matters, such as the expense of a timekeeper, See., 1416 

_Considerable difficulty frequently experienced by witness in obtaining the funds 

required for the payment of salaries, wages, &c ; strong complaints as to the practice of 
416-1. *4 the 



















Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Bruce , George Barclay. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

the local government on this score; effect of the want of proper funds always in hand to 
enhance cost and to create delay, 1417-1448. 

Particulars as to the forms required in contracting for wooden sleepers, and as to the 
effect of these forms in enhancing the price and in rendering it exceedingly difficult at 

times to procure any sleepers at all, 1449-1451. 1460-1462, 1500-1513-Explanation 

of the circumstances connected with the purchase, through witness, of a lot of 3,000 
sleepers; obstacles raised by Colonel Pears, who required the botanical name of the 

wood before authorising the purchase, 1452-1459. 1466-1486. 1514, 1515-Great 

importance of a permission to procure sleepers by a direct ready-money payment; this 
plan was adopted for a short time, but was given up at the suggestion of the Railway 
Company’s agent, who however has since been most anxious to return to it, 1462- 
1465. 1487-1499. 

Further statement as to the great loss of time generally through the minute Govern¬ 
ment supervision, 1516-If the supervising officer were a civil engineer, the same 

minute restrictions would not be enforced by him, 1517, 1518. 

Strong complaint on the score of the obstacles raised for some time to the employment 

of a sufficient staff of European inspectors over the works, 1519 et seq. -Requirement 

at one time by the Government that natives should be employed as masons, &c.; illus¬ 
tration of the objections to this requirement, 1523-1526. 1535-Useful employment of 

some pensioned soldiers as inspectors, 1527-1530-Witness would not have European 

superintendents exclusively; in some places trustworthy natives might be employed as 

inspectors, &c., but as a rule, they should be under Europeans, 1540-1547-Efficiency 

of the pupils taken by the Company from schools in Madras, &c., 1548, 1549. 

[Second Examination.]—Further evidence condemnatory of the restrictions exercised 

by the local Government in regard to the supply of sleepers, 1550 et seq. -Purchase 

of bricks, lime, and other materials without that undue Control which has been exercised 

in the case of sleepers, 1553, 1554. 1562-1565-Approval of the Government, through 

its engineer, seitling some limit as to the woods to be used for sleepers, and the price to 
be paid for them, 1555. 1560, 1561. 

As regards a power in witness, as a subordinate, to make purchases, it is hardly correct 
to look upon him as a subordinate at all, nor is the money spent to be considered public 
money, 1555-1557. 1567-1571. 1576. 1579-1584-Approval by the Home Govern¬ 
ment of the plan suggested by witness for purchasing sleepers, 1572-1575-The line, 

as hitherto opened, lias not been delayed for want, of sleepers, 1577, 1578-Adverse 

feeling of the natives in the interior of the Madras Presidency towards rigid forms of 
tender for materials, 1585-1591. 1608-1611. 

Nature of the control exercised by the Government over the cutting of timber in the 

forests, 1592-1594. 1612-1615-Reference to the wood used for making charcoal, 

1594-1597-Particulars as to the kinds of wood used for sleepers, the districts from 

which procured, and the prices at which they may be obtained, 1598, 1599. 1616-1628 

- -Constant attempts by the natives to sell inferior woods for sleepers, 1601-Import 

of some creosoted sleepers from England; their cost, 1604-1607. 1623. 

Statement as to Colonel Pears having, in 1856, ordered a new survey with the view to 
a diversion of the Madras line, as originally sanctioned ; considerable delay and confusion 
in consequence of this survey, which was stopped by the Government, and the suspended 
works continued, on the remonstrance of the Company, 1629-1645. 

Complaint in regard to the drawings and minute information required by the Govern¬ 
ment engineer relative to the engines and carriages, &,c. on the line, 1647-1683- 

Impression that Colonel Pears may have required the drawings and information about 
the engines, &c., as useful in the event of Government itself constructing a line in the 

Presidency ; Colonel Pears wished to have a line so constructed, 1659-1683-Colonel 

Pears was formerly in the same corps as General Sim, the chairman of the Madras 
Railway, 1684-1686. 

Insufficiency of the staff of engineers of the line further adverted to ; witness does not 
attribute any blame to Colonel Pears on this score, and cannot say that it may not have 

been the fault of the railway directors at home, 1687-1702-Witness cannot define the 

proportion of delay due respectively to the inadequacy of the staff and to the Government 

supervision, 1703-1706-With a proper staff, and without Government supervision, the 

whole line fiom Madras to Beypoor might have been finished when witness left India, 
1707-1710. 

Necessity of the delay at one period in determining the course of the line after the first 

fifty miles, 1711-1716-The costof the completed portion of the Beypoor line is about 

6,000/. a mile, including stations, but without rolling stock, 1718--Amount of the 

European staff necessary in carrying out the works, 1719-1728-Actual staff of en<n- 

netrs employed on each twenty-five miles of line, 1729. 

Different channels through which all indents by witness are obliged to go, 1730-1731 

- - Process necessary before the salaries of any of the staff can be increased, 1732- 

1738- 









BRU 


C AU 


9 


Report, 18.57-8 —continued. 


Bruce , George Barclay. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

1738-Very considerable delay before indents are complied with from home ; impossi¬ 
bility always of anticipating this delay, 1739-1748-Improvement, if supplies, once 

sanctioned by the Government in India, could be forwarded from this country without 
the present double sanction, 1748-1750. J 

[Third Examination.]—Witness never wrote any letter in reply to that of the Railway 
Board in 1855, censuring him on certain points; he has never seen the charges of the 
Government engineer upon which that letter was based, 2930-2932. 

[Fourth Examination.]—Evidence as to the inaccuracy of statements by Colonel Pears, 

that the officials of the Madras Company had always sufficient funds in hands, 4088-- 

Inaccuracy of the illustrations cited by Colonel Pears in proof of his argument that 
Government could construct bridges, 8cc., more cheaply and expeditiously than the Railway 
Company, 4089-4094. 

Bungalows : 

1. East Indian Railway. 

2 . Madras JRailway. 

1. East Indian Railway : 

Reference to a complaint by Mr. Turnbull in regard to non-compliance with a demand 
for bungalows, &c.; examination hereon, Noad 639 et seq. 711,712. 

Impression that it must have been for want of proper information that sanction has 
been refused to the construction of some bungalows on the East Indian line, Baker 3376.. 

2 . Madras Railway: 

Difficulties in regard to the provision of bungalows for the engineers and their assist¬ 
ants, on account of the objection of the local government to sanction a proper expenditure 

for the purpose, Bruce 1385-1413-Redress through the Home Goverment in the 

matter of the bungalows, ib. 1389. 1391, 1392-Nature of the buildings erected as 

bungalows; class of building required, ib. 1393-1411. 

Explanation relative to the bungalows for the engineers, and sums allowed for their 
erection ; undue expenditure on this score, and propriety of the action of Government in 

the matter, Pears 2519, 2520. 2558-2571. 2601-2605-Statement as to one engineer 

having spent 5,000 rupees on a bungalow, whereas the limit prescribed was 350 rupees, 
ib. 2560. 2601-2605. 

Particulars connected with the execution and cost of bungalows for the engineers; 
inaccurate statement by Colonel Pears as to the amount of the excess of expenditure on 

this score, Walker 2721-2723-Instead of 5,000 rupees, the bungalow referred to by 

Colonel Pears cost only 2,020 rupees instead of 350, ib. 2721-Course adopted in the 

case of the bungalow which cost this excess ; censure cast upon the engineer, ib. 2722, 

2723. 2733-2737-Circumstances under which instead of 350 rupees, 900 rupees were 

eventually allowed for each bungalow, ib. 2722. 


C. 

Calcutta and South Eastern Railway. The Calcutta and South Eastern project, or the 

Mutlah line, is the only one not guaranteed, Danvers 65-67-Present position of the 

Mud ah undertakings as regards the raising of money without a guarantee, Sir J. Melvill 

377 2 ” 3774 - 

Capital Opportunity of Government for raising the necessary capital for the construction 

of railways, Kennedy 1900-1903-More than two-thirds of the payments in connexion 

with witness’s line have been made in England, ib. 1914, 19>5 -Slight amount of 

native capital in the Madras Railway, or in the other undertakings, Bears, 2342-2345. 
2390-2393. 2444.- See also Guarantee. Unguaranteed Capital. 

Carriages. Carriages for the Madras line are constructed in India very satisfactorily. 
Walker 2649. 2651. 

Causes of Delay. The chief causes of delay in the first commencement of the lines were 
the differences between the Court of Directors and the Board of Control, and the depressed 
state of the money market in 1847, Danvers 15. 24. 

Enumeration by the Committee of the chief causes of delay in the construction of the 
several lines, Rep. p. iv-Enumeration of sundry causes ot delay incidental to the con¬ 

struction of railways in so distant a country as India, ib. v. 

Cannery Bridge ( Madras Line). Reference to the delay in the commencement of the bridge 
tbroughthe stoppage of the works for a certain purpose, Walker 0742. 2745 - 275 °. 

4 ,6-I. B Cawnp °' e 












10 


CAW 


CON 


Report, 1857 - 8 — continued. 


Cawnpnre to Allahabad. The East Indian line between Cawnpore and Allahabad will soon 
be open, Danvers 210. 

Climate. Loss of several valuable officers on the Bombay, Baroda, and Central India line 

through sickness and death, Kennedy 2119-Reference to ihe difficulty, through the 

effect of Indian climate upon European constitutions, Rep. p. v. 

Coal and Coal Traffic (East Indian Railway ). Use of Indian coal as fuel for the engines ; 

its cost, Noud 946-948-Considerable coal traffic over the line through the branch 

from Burdwan 10 Raneegung; the coal is very abundant, ib. 962-966. 970-974- 

Charge for the conveyance of coal by the railway, ib. 1001, 1002-Uses to which the 

coal brought over the line is applied at Calcutta, ib. 1011-1013. 

Colleroon Bridge. Reference to the erection by Government, within two years, of the 
bridge over the Colleroon River; its cost; inference therefrom unfavourable to the con¬ 
struction of bridges by the Madras Railway Company, Pears 2422-2424. 

Inaccuracy of the inference drawn by Colonel Pears from the case of the Colleroon 
Bridge, Bruce 4089-4091. 

Commercial Crisis of 1847-48. Loss of time on account of the commercial crisis having 
arisen while the preliminary negotiations for the formation of the companies and of their 
plans were still incomplete, Danvers 15. 24; Rep. p. vi. 

Commercial and Political Advantages of the Railways. Commercial as well as political 
objects kept in view by the Home Government in deciding upon the laying out of any 

line, Danvers 77, 78; Sir J. Melvill 3825-Government has never selected a line for 

merely political purposes ; the commercial element has been fully considered, Danvers 
227-229. 263-271. 

Sundry respects in which the East Indian Railway will be highly beneficial to the 
East India Company, so that even should there be no profits the guarantee will not be so 

much loss, Noad 452. 456-462-Fur commercial and political objects the lines in 

India have on the whole been fairly laid out, ib. 533. 

The construction of railways in India is most essential for the improvement of the 
country, and for the maintenance of the political and commercial interests of England, 

Kennedy 1756, 1757-Still greater importance of railways in a commercial than in a 

political point of view, ib. 1758. 1820. 

The Madras line was approved by the Madras Government almost entirely on com¬ 
mercial grounds. Pears 2448, 2449. 2536, 2537. 

Witness considers his scheme of the Scinde Railway to be very important in a com¬ 
mercial point of view, and of infinite importance in a military point of view, Andrew 
3276. 

Competition. Absence of undue competition between the Bombay, Baroda, and Central 
Indian line and the Great Indian Peninsula line, as regards the connexion with Indore 

and other places, Kennedy 1814-1819-Objection to the construction by another 

company of certain other lines in the Madras territory, which lines formed part of the 

original projects of the Madras Railway Companv, Walker 2967-2970-Doubt whether 

competing lines may not arise. Sir J. Melvill 3858, 3859. 

Compulsory Labour. Strong feeling produced by the Government impressment system 

upon the natives; illustration of this, Sibley 1107-1110-Injurious effect produced for 

a time upon the progress of the East India Railway through the system of compulsory 
labour as employed generally in the case of'the public works; oppressive operation of 

the system upon the natives, ib, 1128-1145-Reference to certain public documents as 

showing the cognisance of the Indian Government in regard to the oppressive operation 

of the forced supply of labour and of carriages, ib. 1220-Witness never heard of the 

employment of compulsory labour on railways in India, ib. 1221-1224. 

Entire inaccuracy of Mr. Sibley’s evidence as to the employment of forced labour on 
almost all the public works in Bengal, Baker 3381. 3417. 

Construction : 

1. Power of Government in regard to the Construction of the Works. 

2 . Disposition at one period in the Court of Directors to undertake the Con¬ 

struction themselves. 

3 . Advantages respectively of Construction by Government and by the 

Companies. 

4 . Excellent manner in which the Construction has been carried out. 

5. Question as to the advantage of the Telescopic Mode of Construction. 

1. Power of Government in regard to the Construction of the Works. 

The lines are constructed directly by the companies whose proceedings are subject to 

supervision on the part of the Government, Danvers 12-Power of the Government to 

assume 









Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Construction —continued. 

1. Power of Government in regard to the Construction of the Works —continued. 

assume the conduct of the works, if, in their opinion, carried on unsatisfactorily by the 
companies, Danvers 214-217. 

2. Disposition at one period in the Court of Directors to undertake the Construction 

themselves. 

There was a disposition on the part of a majority of the Court of Directors, in January 
1849, to make the lines themselves; the Board of Control differed from this view, 

Danvers 15; Sir J. Melvill 3878-3880-Rumour in June 1848, that the East India 

Company intended to construct the railways themselves, Noad 333. 374, 375. 383. 

3. Advantages respectively of Construction by Government and by the Companies. 

As a principle, it would have been better if Government had undertaken the construction 

of the railways ; practical obstacles, however, to their doing so advantageously, Kennedy 

1885-1903-It must depend upon the organisation, and upon those at the head of the 

system whether Government could carry on the works better than the companies, ib. 
1885-1899. 

Opinion expressed by witness, after four years’ experience, in disapproval of the 
present system of carrying on the undertakings, and in favour of their entire transfer to 

Government, Pears 2241, 2242-Witness has always strongly felt that Government 

should undertake and construct the works, ib. 2243, 2244. 2328-2334-The system of 

construction hitherto pursued has been a failure; greater delay in the case of the Madras 
and other lines through being executed by the companies, ib. 2346-2372. 

The railways might have been formed more efficiently and economically, and more 
beneficial to the natives, if they were entirely Government undertakings, ib. 2439-2444. 

2458-2462-Advantage 6n the score of the exercise of discipline is the main ground 

on which Government could execute the works more expeditiously and cheaply than the 
railway company, ib. 2524-2535. 

Belief that Government might have constructed the railways more economically and 

quickly than the companies, and as efficiently. Baker 3388. 3412-3416. 3459. 34® 1 -• 

Military engineers could not of themselves, or without some previous experience on 
railways, have properly carried out the works, ib. 3389. 3453, 3454- 

Witness considers that Government acted wisely in delegating the construction of the 
railways to private companies rather than in undertaking it themselves, Sir J. Melvill 
3602. 3802-3809. 

Witness is still of opinion that it would have been better if railway construction in 
India had been undertaken by Government, Pears 3980, 3981. 

Decided dissent from the statement of Colonel Pears that the railways might be 
executed more cheaply and expeditiously by Government than by the companies, Sir M. 
Stephenson 4016, 4019-4022. 

Government has acted wisely in committing to private enterprise the execution of the 
works, Rep. p. vii. 

4. Excellent Manner in which the Construction has been carried out: 

The construction has been carried out in a very admirable manner in an engineering 
point of view, Sir J. Melvill 3745. 

5. Question as to the advantage of the Telescopic Mode of Construction: 
Advantage as regards the conveyance of materials of using the completed portion of 

the line as the means of transit, Noad 607-613-Longer time in construction if the 

railways had been made on the telescopic principle, Baker 3523, 3524-Difficulty as 

regards the supply of materials in constructing the lines on the telescopic principle, 

Sir J. Melvill 3821, 3822-Drawbacks upon the advantage of the telescopic principle 

of construction, Sir M. Stephenson 4013. 

See also Contracts. Supervision. 

Consulting Engineer {Court of Directors.) Objection to their being^ a consulting engineer 
in this countrv on the part of the East India Company or the Government, Noad 874, 

8~r. 896-898--Except in the case of certain bridge structures, and of the permanent 

way and rolling stock ; the consulting engineers in this country have not dnectlv had to 

do with the dneciion of the line, ib. 933*937--Further element of delay if the Court of 

Directors had a consulting engineer of their ow n, Sibley 1175. 

Advantage if there were a practical and eminent professional man to consider questions 
on the part of the Indian Government at home; Sir James Melvill does not*decide 
import ant engineering questions, Kennedy 1949-1954. 

Consulting Engineers {in India.) See Supervision, II. 

416-I. B 2 


Contracts: 








12 


CONTRACTS. 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Contracts: 

1. Generally as to the Difficulties and Delays in connexion with the Contracts. 

2 . Advantages respectively of the Contract System, and of the Departmental 

System of Construction. 

3. East Indian Railway. 

4. Great Indian Peninsula Railway. 

5. Madras Railway. 

1. Generally as to the Difficulties and Delays in connexion with the Contracts: 

Difficulties in several instances through the contracts with British contractors, but not 

with the native contractors, Danvers 317-321-Adverse feeling of the natives in the 

interior of the Madras Presidency towards rigid forms, of tender for materials, Bruce 

1585-1591- 1608-1611-Feeling of unwillingness on the part of the poorer natives in 

the interior of the Madras Presidency to enter into contracts, but not on the part of the 
better educated class in the large towns, Pears 2283-2289. 

Principal defects of the contract system in the construction of the lines, Baker 3342- 

3345-In the Bengal Presidency no native is prepared to undertake the construction 

of anything like twenty or thirty miles of railway, ih. 3351-3353-Witness has not 

found any unwillingness in the natives in Bengal to sign tenders, ih. 3354. 

Reference to the unwillingness of large contractors in England to undertake contracts 

in India under the Government supervision, Sir J. Melvill 3668-3671-Anxiety of 

Government to employ the energies and resources of native contractors, ih. 3672- 

Failure rather of the European contractors in India than of the native contractors or 

Parsees, ih. 3673-3676-The failure of contracts has been productive of much delay, 

ih. 3710-Greater tendency lately of contractors in England to undertake railway con¬ 

tracts in India, ib. 3747, 3748. 

Reference by the Committee to the difficulty through the frequent failures of con¬ 
tractors, Rep. p. v. 

2. Advantages respectively of the Contract System , and of the Departmental 

System of Construction : 

Success of the system of constructing the Madras Railway without the aid of con¬ 
tractors, Bruce 1241,1242-Preference given to the system of construction through 

officers of the companies rather than through contractors, Kennedy 1877. 1885.2112 
-Grounds for concluding that the works should be carried out by the railway com¬ 
pany’s engineers rather than by contract. Baker 3341, 3342-Grounds upon which 

witness prefers the contract system to the departmental system for the execution of the 

works ; he would like to see the latter system tried, Sir J. Melvill 3712. 3746-Grounds 

upon which the Board of Directors of the East India Railway Company determined to 
adopt the contract system, rather than the departmental system in the execution of the 
works, Sir M. Stephenson 3553, 3554. 3991-3994. 

Necessity of a fair trial being given to the contract and departmental systems of con¬ 
struction before any decided preference is given to either, Rep. p. vii. 

3. East Indian Railway : 

Statement as to the Court of Directors having in October 1849, after a delay of three 
months declined to sanction a tender by Mr. Jackson for the construction of the entire 

works from Calcutta to Raneegunge, Road 345-347. 356-364-Different contracts 

entered into for different portions of the line to Allahabad, &c., failure of several of these, 

ib. 492-495-The contracts have all been with Europeans settled in India ; reason whv 

contractors in this country were not applied to, ib 493. 496, 497-Delay through the 

failure of the contractors, ib. 532-Probable causes of the failure of the contractors, ib. 

554, 555- 673. 

Prejudicial working of the contract system as hitherto pursued ; advantage if tenders 

had been advertised for in England, Noad 556, 557. 574-587. 614. 900-902- 

Precautions taken before entering into the contracts which failed; necessary sanction of 

Government before any contract was made, ib. 674-677. 681-683-Advantage of the 

system of executing the works bv small contracts, as at first, rather than by the large 
contracts subsequently entered into, Sibley 1083-1085. 

Failure of contractors on the East India line, and consequent delay in the progress of 

the works; causes of these failures, Baker 3344-3349* 3426-3428-Explanation and 

defence of the action of the Indian Government and of witness in regard to their sanc¬ 
tioning the letting of the works on the East India line by contracts taken in India, ib. 

3350-3362-Circumstances under which witness sanctioned contracts which he felt 

could not be completed in the stipulated time, ib. 3352-3362. 3408-3411-In sanc¬ 

tioning the contracts witness felt the works could never be completed in the stipulated 
time; the prices, however, were fair, and witness saw that the contractswould enable 
him to stimulate the progress of the line, ib. 3355-3358. 


Grounds 









Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Contracts —continued. 

3. East Indian Railway —continued. 

Grounds upon which it was determined by the railway company to execute tie works 
by contract rather than through their engineers, Sir M. Stephenson 3553, 3554. 3991 — 
3994-—'F ailu . re . <'f several of the contracts adverted to; blame attributed to Govern¬ 
ment in their rigid enforcement of the original conditions without reference to the altered 
circumstances and unforeseen difficulties under which the contractors laboured, ib. 3554- 
3563 Explanation as to all the contracts having been made in India; failure, on 
account of the system of Government supervision, of attempts to obtain contractors from 

England, ib. 3564-357°-Reference to the rejection by the India Board of a tender 

by Mr. Jackson for the execution of a first section of seventy miles on advantageous 
terms, approved by the Railway Board and the East India Company, ib. 3564,3565. 

Objections on the part of the Board ol Control which led to the non-acceptance of a 
tender by Mr. Thomas Jackson for the construction of the East India line, as far as 

Raneegunge for 8,000 1 . a mile, Sir J. Melvill 3669,3670-Impression that Messrs. Bray 

& Elmsley were the only contractors who succeeded in Bengal, ib. 3749, 3750. 

Gain of nearly four years in the completion of the line if Mr. Jackson’s tender in 

1848 had been accepted, Sir M. Stephenson 3985,3986-Careful manner in which the 

contracts were prepared, ib. 3987-Explanation that there are three contracting firms 

on the Bengal line who have not failed, ib. 3988-3990-Reasons for not tendering in 

England, ib. 3993-DtTay through the non-acceptance of Mr. Jackson’s tender further 

adverted to, ib. 4043. 4047. 

4. Great Indian Peninsula Railway : 

Execution hitherto of the whole of the Great Indian Peninsula Railway bv means of 

contracts, all of which have been satisfactorily fulfilled, Watt 3017, 3018. 3050-There 

is one native contractor who has performed his contract most satisfactorily, ib. 3044- 

3049-The European contractors have all gone out from this country ; particulars 

hereon, and as to the system of tender adopted by the company in India and in England, ib. 

3044. 3097-3100-Employment by the European contractors of native sub-contractors; 

advantage thereof, ib. 3101-3105. 

5. Madras Railway: 

Delay through the failure of the native contractors engaged upon the Goriattum and 
Palar Bridges, Walker 2656. 2698, 2699-The Madras Company have had no Euro¬ 
pean contractors, ib. 2698-Delay through the wish to employ native contractors, ib. 

2698, 2699. 2708. 2742. 2744. 

See also Supervision, II. 4. 


Correspondence. Delay through the circuitous and lengthy correspondence between the 
railway Boards and their agents, on the one hand, and the several Government depart¬ 
ments in England and India on the other. Rep. p. v. 

See also Indents. Supervision. 


Cost. Estimated cost of the several railways of the 'East India Company; total of 

35,23!,°0°/., Danvers 75, 76-Average cost per mile in the case of the lines now open, 

ib! 137, 138-Single lines can be made for about 6,000/. a mile, so that 72,000,000/. 

would be required to make 12,000 miles, Kennedy 1763-1766——The cost of a double 

line as compared with a single line is about as eight to five, ib. 1767-The only 

economical principle of inter-communication is a good and efficient railroad, ib. 2110, 
2111 _Causes of the much less cost of railroads in India than in England, Baker 

2437. 

The very low price of labour keeps down the cost to an average for the whole country 
of about 10,000/. a mile, Rep. p. vi. 

See also Construction. Contracts. Great Indian Railway , 14. Great Indian 
Peninsula Railway , 5. Madras Railway , 8. Supervision. 


Cotton. Anticipated carriage of large supplies of cotton over the railways, Sir J. Melvill 
3824. 

Court of Directors. Witness is assistant to the secretary in the India House; has charge 

of ail matters relating to railways in India, Danvers 1-5 -The railways business ot the 

India House has been gradually increasing for several years past, but there is no regu¬ 
larly constituted railway department, ib. 2-4. 

Average delay of about a month occupied by the Court of Directors in the settlement 
of questions submitted to them by the East India Railway Board iVoat/830 831.863- 

Sfiv 802-804._Doubt as to any practical grievance through the loss of time in the 

settling of questions needlessly referred to the Court of Directors, ib. 830.868.923- 
926. 


416—1. 


b 3 


There 

















14 


C 0 U 


DAN 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Court of Directors —continued. 

There have not been any serious points of difference between the Court of Directors 

and the Board of Control, Sir J. Melvill 3601-Explanation as to the formation of 

the department of the India House which conducts the railway business ; its efficiency, 

ib. Prompt action of the India House in clearing off railway business so 

as to prevent any delay, ib. 3792-Absence of unnecessary delay on the part of the 

Home Government in sanctioning lines already sanctioned in India; propriety of their 
inquiries before sanction, ib. 3889-3893. 

The Committee confidently expect that the contemplated consolidation of the depart¬ 
ments of the India House, and the Board of Control will materially expedite the future 
transaction of railway business, Rep. p. iv, v. 

See also Construction , 2. Guarantee. Preliminary Negotiations. Supervision, I. 

Crawford, Colonel. Colonel Crawford, the Government consulting engineer at Bombay, is 
anxious to stimulate the progress of the railway works, Kennedy 2186. 


D. 

Dalhousie, Lord. The whole scheme of the Indian railways was laid down by Lord 

Dalhousie, Danvers 220, 221-Feeling of Lord Dalhousie that the East India Railway 

might have been completed much more readily, Noad 614-The Government of 

India, through Lord Dalhousie, was in favour of the works being undertaken by the 
companies, Baker 3457, 3458. 3460-Lord Dalhousie had the most sanguine expec¬ 
tations of the railways being very profitable. Sir J. Melvill 3856-Minute bv Lord 

Dalhousie upon the railway system adverted to; excellent facilities possessed by him for 

aniving at a sound conclusion on the subject, ib. 3894-3903-Reference to the opinion 

of Lord Dalhousie that Government supervision need not cause vexation or delay, 
Sir M. Stephenson 4049-4052. 

Danvers, Juland. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Assistant to the secretary in the India 

House; has charge of all matters relating to railways in India, 1-5-The railway 

business of the India House has been gradually increasing for several years past, but 

there is no regularly constituted railway department, 2-4-Schemes for the construction 

of railways in India were first proposed in the year 1844 by Mr. Stephenson (now 
Sir Macdonald Stephenson), and almost simultaneously by Mr. Chapman, 6, 7. 9-11. 

Schemes for railways in India are first formed by companies in this country, and are 
submitted to the India House, whence they are referred to the authorities in India, in 
accordance with whose reports they are accepted or rejected, 8-The lines are con¬ 

structed directly by the companies, whose proceedings are subject to supervision on the 

part of the Government, 12-The first contracts with any companies whose lines were 

sanctioned, were made i.i 1849, ^ le ^ l ’ st propositions having bee t made in 1844; 13-17. 

Expla nation of the course pursued by the East India Company with reference to the 
first propositions for the construction of the East Indian and Great Indian Peninsula 
Railways ; refusal of the Board of Control to sanction the guarantee first proposed by the 

Company in aid of those undertakings, 15-Failure of the projectors of the East 

Indian Railway to carry out certain conditions agreed to in 1847, ib. -Settlement 

ultimately in August 1849 of the terms of the contracts with the East Indian and Great 
Indian Peninsula Companies, such terms being adhered to as the b isis of all the sub¬ 
sequent undertakings, ib. 

Impression that Lord William Bentinck did not take any prominent part in promoting 

the construction of railways in India, 21-23-The chief causes of delay on the first 

commencement of the lines were the differences between the Court of Directors and the 

Board of Control, and the depressed state of the money market in 1847 ; 24-Different 

periods at which the different lines were sanctioned, 25, 26-There is another scheme, 

the Great Southern of India, now under consideration by the Court of Directors, 26, 
27. 67. 

Engagement by the Indian Government to guarantee, free of expense, all the land 

required for the railways, 29-Guarantee by the Government of five per cent, interest 

on the capital of the subscribers for ninety-nine years, 30.33,34-Exception, as regards 

the amount of tiie guarantee, in the case of the Madras Company ; somewhat lower terms 
in this instance, 30-33-Explanation of the several conditions attached to the Govern¬ 

ment guarantee, and with reference to the future possession of the lines, 34-39* 

Control exercised over the construction of, and expenditure on, each line by an officer 

of engineers appointed by the Government, 40-44-Nature of the functions and control 

exercised over the railway Boards in this company by Sir James Melvill, who is ex officio 

direoor of each Board, 45- 58-P ractice as regards the consideration of indents or 

requisitions from India for materials for the railways; routine and correspondence neces¬ 
sary on this score, 49-64. 169-201. 


There 











DANVERS. 


15 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Danvers, Juland. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

There are six guaranteed undertakings; names of these, 65. 67-The Calcutta and 

bouth Eastern project, or the Mutlah line, is the only one not guaranteed, 65-67_ 

Numerous surveys required in the case of the Scinde and Punjaub line by the Bombay 
Government; sanction ultimately by the Court of Directors of the line as first projected 
68-72. 142. \ j ■ > 


\S itness hands in a table showing the length of the several lines, the experimental or 
completed portions, and the peiiods at which it is estimated the remaining works will be 
completed, 73>74 Estimated cost of the several railways of the East India Company; 
total of 35,231,000/.; 75, 76. 

Political and commercial objects kep: in view in deciding upon the laying out of any 

line, 77, 78-—Explanation as to the alteration in the original direction or route of the 

East Indian line, 79-81. 90-92. 143-Difference of opinion between lhe Central 

Government on the one hand, and the Madras Government and Madras Railway Com¬ 
pany on the other hand, in regard to the course of the Madras line, 82-87-Explana¬ 

tion as to the establishment of the present system of supervision of the lines in India, 
94 - 99 - 


Physical and engineering difficulties in the way of the completion of several of the 

undertakings, 100-102-Obstruction in Bengal through the Santhal rebellion, 100- 

Interruption in many places through the mutiny, ib. -Opinion that after the sanction 

and commencement of any line there has not been much delay, 103-Difficulty as 

regards the freight for the conveyance of materials from this country ; practice hereon, 
104-112-Abundant supply of materials available in this country, 104, 105. 

Great difficulty in supplying materials in India, 113, 114-Difficulty in procuring 

wooden sleepers in India, 114. 232-Difficulty as regards the production of iron in 

India; steps taken by the Court of Directors to develope the iron mines, 114-123- 

Estimate of 1,075,000 tons of iron as the quantity required for tlie sanctioned works, 

124-126.131-135-Actual tonnage of materials forwarded from this country, 127-130. 

136-Average cost per mile in the case of the lines now open, 137, 138-Fxercise 

of the Government supervision in India adverted to; directions given in order that there 
may be no undue interference, 139-143. 

Reference to the misunderstanding in the first nstance as to the five per cent, guarantee 

being a guarantee of dividend; how this difficulty was got over, 144-162-Fuither 

evidence relative to the functions exercised by Sir J. Melvill as ex officio director at the 

railway Boards; limit placed upon his powers by the Board of Control, 163-192- 

Doubt as to the necessity of certain matters being iaid by the railway Boards before the 
Court of Directors, and approved of by the Board of Control, having led to much or any 
delay in the construction of the'works, 172-201. 

Further explanation relative to the alteration of the route first proposed for the East 

Indian Railway ; how far this may have led to delay, 202-210-The East Indian line 

between Cawnpore and Allahabad will soon be open,210-Greater progress with this line 

but for the mutiny, ib. -There is to be a line from Mirzapoor to Jubbulpoor, 300 miles 

lono-; this will not be verv difficult of execution, 211-213. 

Power of the Government to assume the conduct of the works, if, in their opinion, 

carried on unsatisfactorily by the Companies, 214-217-Instances of lines originated by 

the Government, 218, 219—-The whole scheme of railways was laid down by Lord 

Dalhousie, 220, 221——Misapprehension under which Lord Dalhousie sanctioned the 

Baroda line without reference to the Home Government, 222-Adoption by the Home 

Government of all lines sanctioned by the Local Government, 223, 224. 

After a line has been determined upon and the contract made, no deviation has been 

made, 225-Government has, never selected a line for merely political purposes, 227- 

229_The alteration in the dilection of the Eastern Bengal line was made entirely with 

the wish of the Company, 227. 254-256-Supervision has not prevented the prosecu¬ 
tion of the works, nor caused any real delay 229. 248-252-Necessity of supervision in 


connection with the guarantee, 229. 

Condition of the contract that Government troops, stores, &c., shall be earned at the 

lowest rates, 230, 231-Necessity of the Companies being incorporated by Act of 

Pailiameut, previously to the sanction of the Court of Directors, 233-235-Opinion 

given by the Government engineer in India, as to the propriety of acceding to requisi¬ 
tions for materials, 236-239--Settlement in this country of quesuons as to the weight 

of rails, &.C., 239-242. 

Further reference to the delay in the case of the Scinde line, in consequence of the 

difference of opinion about the route 243. 258-Delay through a difference of opinion 

about the line of the Madras Company, 243. 245-Delays have of course arisen through 

the necessity of sending materials from this country, 244--Circumstance of a new kind 

of permanent way in India, having been objected to.by the East India Company, 24b. 

Excess of expenditure by the East India Company over the estimated cost, 247 - 

Discussion and delay at firsi in deteimining upon the scheme of railways to be introd uced, 

416-I. B 4 253 

















i6 


DAN 


E AS 


Report, 1857-8— continued . 


Danvers , Inland. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

253-Harmonious action between the ex officio Government director and the Railway 

Directors, 257. 290-The lines have from the first more than paid their working ex¬ 
penses, 260. 262-In two instances the profits have exceeded the rate of guaranteed 

interest 260-Any well selected line is sure to pay, 261. 

It is quite an error to suppose that Government has not fully considered the commercial 

element in the selection of the lines, 263-271-Absence of any undue delay through 

the practice in considering the indents 272, 273-Further reference to the question of 

freights ; hitherto there has been no difficulty in the conveyance of the requisite 

materials, 274-284. 291-294-Precautions taken to secure uniformity of gauge, rolling 

stock, &c., 285-290. 

The profit realised on the opened lines has fully answered expectations, 295-301- 

Explanation as to the delays in connection with the sanction of the line from Bombay 

to Surat, 302-312-Practical experience of the Government engineering officers 

employed in supervising the construction of the railways, 313-316-Difficulties in 

several instances through the contracts with British contractors but not with the native 
contractors, 317-321. 

Departmental System of Construction . See Contracts , 2. 

Deviations. After a line has been determined upon and the contract made, no deviation 
has been made, Danvers 225. 

Discretionary Powers. Importance of due care being taken in entrusting discretionary 
power to the heads of any departments in carrying out the works, Rep. p. vii. 


E. 


East Indian Railway: 


1. Origin and Objects of the Formation of the Company. 

2. Preliminary Proceedings of the Company , and Negotiations and Lapse of 

Time before a Guarantee was obtained. 

3 . Capital of the Company: Amount paid-up. 

4 . Expenditure in Preliminary Expenses. 

5 . Progress made in the Construction of the Works. 

6. Contracts. 

7 . Explanation and Approval of the Adoption of the indirect or Ganges 

Valley Route. 

8. Preference given to the direct Route over that of the Ganges Valley. 

9 . Length of the Line to Delhi or Meerut. 

10 . Heavy Character of the Works. 

11. Respects in which constructed for a Double Line of Rails. 

12. Government Supervision : Complaints and Explanation hereon. 

13 . Staff: refusal of an Application for an Increase. 

14 . Rate of Expenditure in Construction. 

15 . Amount of Traffic , and Rates charged. 

16 . Profits on the portion of the Line now in Operation. 


1. Origin and Objects of the Formation of the Company : 

Political and social objects had in view by the projectors of the East Indian Railway 

Company ; the scheme was never viewed as a commercial speculation, Noad 324- 

Origin of the scheme in the investigations and conclusions of Mr. (now Sir Macdonald) 

Stephenson, ib. -The original object of the Company was to make all the railways which 

might be required in India, ib. 407. 414, 415. 


2. Preliminary Proceedings of the Company, and Negotiations and Lapse of Time 
before a Guarantee was obtained: 

Particulars as to the negotiations between the East Indian Railway Company and the 

Court of Directors of the Board of Control, Danvers 15-Failure of the projectors of 

the railway to carry out certain conditions agreed to in 1847, and again in 1848, ib. - 

The Court of Directors first proposed a guarantee of four per cent, for ninety-nine years, 

on 5,000,000 ib.- -The Board of Control objected to the foregoing proposition, and 

limited the period of the guarantee to fifteen years, ib. -The limit of fifteen years was 

found to be an insurmountable obstacle towards obtaining the required capital, ib. - 

Further refusal by the Board of Control to sanction the terms first proposed, ib. 

In 1847, in consequence of the altered state of the money market the Court of Directors 
were obliged to propose a guarantee of five per cent.. Danvers 15-The foregoing pro¬ 
position was assented to by the Board of Control under certains conditions, ib. - 

Settlement ultimately, in August 1849, of the terms of the contract, ib. 


Commissioners 
















EAST INDIAN RAILWAY. 


17 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


East Ikdian Railway —continued. 

2. Preliminary Proceedings of the Company, $$c. —continued. 

CommumcaUons between the founders of the company and the Chairs of the Court 

or Directors, previous to the formation of the Company in June 1845, Noad 324, 325- 

Incorporation of the Company by Act, in August 1849, ib. 327, 328--Detailed state¬ 

ment of the communications between the Company and the Court of Directors subse¬ 
quently to June 1845, ib. 330 et setp -On the return of Mr. Stephenson to England, 

in June 1846, he having been sent out by the Company in July 1845, the Company 
communicated with the Court of Directors, but received no reply until February 1847 
ib. 330 - 332 . 

Offer by the Court of Directors, in February 1847, of a guarantee of four per cent, for 
fifteen years on an expenditure of three millions, Noad 330——Arrangement, subsequently 
to February 1847, involving, as the Company understood, a guaranteed dividend of five 

per cent, for a period of twenty-five years, ib. 330, 331-Great financial depression 

which prevented the Company from complying with the strict terms of the foregoing 

arrangements, ib. 332-Comment upon the course pursued by the Couit of Directors 

in breaking off the negotiation, ib. 332, 333. 365-373. 420-422-The loss of time 

between 1845 and 1847 was the chief cause of the delay and subsequent embarrassments, 
ib. 333 - 371 - 384-389* 

Furiher negotiation with the Court of Directors in June and July 1848; arrangement 

then entered into for the commencement of the railway, Noad 333-Obligation upon 

the company at this period to withdraw a certain Bill then almost passed through Parlia¬ 
ment, ib. 333. 376-Particulars relative to the negotiations about the guarantee; 

arrangement ultimately, whereby an interest of five per cent, was guaranteed for 99 

years, ib. 333-343-Final settlement, about March 1850, of the salaries of the engi- 

mers, the extent of staff, &c., ib. 346. 

Examination in further disapproval of the refusal of the Court of Directors until 
February 1847, to ente r into negotiations with the company; ample data at their 

command for coming to a decision at a much earlier period, Noad 389-413-The 

guarantee asked for was with reference only to two sections of the line, from Calcutta to 

Delhi and Lahore, ib. 416-419-Complete plans or sections of the line have never been 

sent to this country, ib. 423-426-Conditions of the arrangements as regards the appro¬ 

priation of profits, ib. 445. 450. 

Letter from the East India Railway Board to the Court of Directors, dated 23d March 
1848, with reference to the requirement of the letter as to the payment of a deposit of 
100,000/. on the 31st March ensuing, as previously agreed upon, Noad’s Ev.,p. 66, 67. 

Further letter from the Railway Board to the Court of Directors, dated 29 May 1848 
relative to the non-payment of the deposit of 100,000 l. on the 1st of May (to which date 
its payment had been extended) and offering certain terms on which the company will be 
prepared to raise capital for the undertaking, Noad’s Ev., p. 67-69. 

Witness is a director of the East India Railway Company; was for some years their 
egentin India, and has been connected with the undertaking since 1835, Sir M. Stephen¬ 
son 3546-3548-Survey of the East India line undertaken by witness in 1845, Mr. 

Simms having at the same time been sent out to India by the Court of Directors, as 
consulting engineer on their behalf; in 1846 witness returned, with the results of the 

survey, which were most satisfactory, i/>. 3549-Arrangements in 1847 for constructing 

portions of the East India Railway were put a stop to by the monetary crisis of 1847-48, 
ib. 3552 * 

Difficulty experienced in raising the prescribed subscriptions through the crisis of 
1847-48, Sir J. Melvill 3832. 3838-3841. 

Further reference to the delay on the part of the Court of Directors in 1846 in entering 
into negotiations with witness’s company; reason for such delay in their not having 
received certain information from India, Noad 3982-3984. 

Further statement as to the unnecessary delay before the home authorities decided upon 

guaranteeing the East India Railway, Sir M. Stephenson 4032-4040--Subsequently to 

July 1847 the commercial crisis was the cause of the delay until 1849, ib. 4041, 4042. 

3 . Capital of the Company; Amount paid up : 

The Company has power to raise by shares twenty millions, and by loan three millions, 
Noad 326-The capital already subscribed is 8,700,000 /., ib. 329. 

4. Expenditure in preliminary Expenses: 

Statement as to an expenditure by the Company of about 80,000 /. in preliminary 
expenses, of which only 32,600 /. was allowed to form a part of the guaranteed capital ; 
how the difference was made up by the company, Noad 34 ^- 355 * 379 - 382 The com¬ 
pany had not the previous sanction of the Court of Directors, as regards tne expenditure 

of the 80,000/., ib. 379. 

4 i6_I. C 5 * Pro g ress 












i8 


EAST INDIAN RAILWAY. 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


East Indian Railway — continued. 

5 . Progress made in the Construction of the Works: 

Length of the lines, portion completed, and periods at which it is estimated the entire 
works will be completed, Danvers 74. 

The railway company sent out its staff in March 1850, and in January 1851 the first 

25 miles ot land were obtained possession of, Noad 462. 464-By March 1852 the land 

for the section of 121 miles was obtained, ib. 464-In August and September 1854, 

thirty-seven and a-half miles were opened for traffic, and by February 1855 the 121 miles, 

from Calcutta to Raneegunge, were opened, ib. 465, 466-Progress made up to the 

present time with the remainder of the line; in the next two years about 500 additional 
miles will probably be completed, ib. 467, 468. 519. 

A greater mileage would have been completed by this time, but for the alteration in 

1851 in the direction of the line, Noad 469-472. 607-Witness does not admit that 

there has been any delay through the Company in the construction of the line, ib. 471 
-If the Company are allowed proper freedom of action all difficulties will be over¬ 
come, ib. 518. 627-The Company are now themselves constructing the works for which 

the conn actors failed ; they have no contract in prospect on the main line, ib. 577, 578 

-Explanation as to its having been computed that the line cannot be opened as 

far as Rajmahal for seventeen years, ib. 621-During the construction of the experi¬ 

mental line, the route of the main line was determined upon, ib. 932. ** 

In the case of the works under witness, the rate of progress may be considered to have 

reached its limit, Sibley 1127-Nature of the progress made with the surveys and works 

of the East Indian line when witness left India in 1851, Kennedy 1980-1982-Grounds 

for concluding that the progress of the works has not been v\hat it ought to have been, 

Pears 2355-2371-Between Cawnpore and Agra the works are only waiting for the 

arrival of the permanent way, Baker 3407-The Supreme Government is not altogether 

satisfied with the progress of the construction, ib. 3438,3439-Witness is disappointed 

with the progress of the East India line, but not with the engineers’ exertions, ib. 3511 

-The provision of permanent way has generally been in advance of the work', ib. 

35>3, 35 1 4- 3528 . 

In 1849 contracts were made, and in 1850, operations were commenced which have 

since only been interrupted by local causes. Sir M. Stephenson 3552-Progress made 

with the undertaking at the present time ; the whole line will be opened by 1862, ib. 

The progress of the East India Railway has hardly been satisfactory, but the impedi¬ 
ments weie unforeseen, Sir J. Melvill 3709. 

6 . Contracts: 

Statement as to the Court of Directors having in October 1849, after a delay of three 
months, declined to sanction a tender bv Mr. Jackson for the construction of the entire 

works from Calcutta to Raneegunge, Noad 345-347. 356-364-Different contracts 

entered into for different portions of the line to Allahabad, 8ce.; failure of several of these, 

ib. 492-495-The contracts have all been with Europeans settled in India; reasons 

why contractors in this country were not applied to, ib. 493. 496,497-Delay through 

the failure of contractors, ib. 532-Probable causes of the failure of the contractors, 

ib- 534- 555• 673- 

Prejudicial working of the contract system as hitherto pursued; advantage if tenders 
had been advertised for in England, Noad 556, 557. 574-587. 614. 900-902-Pre¬ 
cautions taken before entering into the contracts which failed, ib. 674-677. 681-683- 

Advantage of the system of executing the works by small contracts, as at first, rather 
than by the large contracts subsequently entered into, Sibley 1083-1085. 

Failure of contractors on the East India line, and consequent delay in the progress of 

the works; causes of these failures, Baker 3344-3349. 3426-3428-Explanation and 

defence of the action of the Indian Government and of witness in regard to the sanctioning 

the leiting of the w'orks nil the line by contracts taken in India, ib. 3350-3362- 

Circumstances under which witness sanctioned contracts which he felt could not be 
completed in the stipulated time, ib. 3352-3362. 3408-3411-In sanctioning the con¬ 

tracts witness felt, the works could never be completed in the stipulated time; the prices, 
however, were fair, and witness saw that the contracts would enable him to stimulate the 
progress of the line, ib. 3355-3358. 

Grounds upon which it was determined by the railway company to execute the works 
by contract rather than through their engineers, Sir M. Stephenson 3553, 3554- 3991- 

3994-Failure of several of the eontiacts adverted to ; blame attributed to Government 

in their rigid enforcement of the original conditions without reference to the altered cir¬ 
cumstances and unforeseen difficulties under which the contractors laboured, ib. 3554- 

3556-Explanation as 10 all the contracts having been made in India; failure on 

ac count of the system of Government supervision to attempt to obtain contractors from 

England, ib. 3564-3570-Reference to the rejection by the India Board of a tender by 

Mr. Jackson 
















EAST INDIAN RAILWAY. 


'9 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


East Indian Railway —continued. 

6. Contracts —continued. 

Mr. Jackson for the execution of a first section of seventy miles on advantageous terms, 
approved by the Railway Board and the East India Company, Sir M. Stephenson 3564, 
3565- 

Objections on the part of the Board of Control which led to the non-acceptance of a 
tender by Mr. Thomas Jackson for the construction of the East India line as far as 

Raneegunge for 8,000 l. a mile, Sir J. Melvill 3669,3670-Impression that Messrs. 

Bray & Elmsley were the only contractors who succeeded in Bengal, ib. 3749, 3750. 

Gain of nearly four years in the completion of the line if Mr. Jackson’s tender in 1848 
had been accepted, Sir M. Stephenson 3985, 3986-—Careful manner in which the con¬ 
tracts were prepared, ib. 3987-Explanation that there are three contracting firms on 

the Bengal line who have not failed, ib. 3988-3990-Reasons for not tendering in 

England, ib. 3993-Delay through the non-acceptance of Mr. Jackson’s tender fuither 

adverted to, ib. 4043, 4044-Execution hitherto of the whole of the Great Indian 

Peninsular Railway by means of contracts, all of which have been satisfactorily fulfilled. 
Watt 3017, 3018. 3050. 


7 . Explanation and Approval of the Adoption of the Indirect or Ganges Valley 
Route: 

Evidence in explanation of the alteration in the original direction or route of the East 

India line, Danvers 79-81.90-9*2. 143-Further explanation relative to the alterationof 

the route first proposed for the Railway ; how far this may have led to delay, ib. 102-210 
-Thealteration was made entirely with the wish of the company, ib. 227. 254 256. 

Full appioval by witness, when Government consulting engineer in India, of everything 
that was proposed to be done as regards the construction of the East India line, Kennedy 

1982-1984-Personal inspection of the line by witness with reference to the direction 

proposed to be taken, ib. 1984-1988-Explanation in detail as to the grounds upon 

which witness recommended the indirect or Ganges Valley line to Mirzapore, in pieference 
to the direct line, ib. 1987 et seq. 

The indirect line went through a rich, populous, and level district, and the direct line 

through a district hilly, barren, and without much population,if any, Kennedy 1988-Much 

less engineering difficulties 00 the indirect than the direct route; examination hereon, ib. 

1988-2005_-Much greater width of the Soane at the point at which it must have been 

c rossed on the direct line ; the united difficulties of the indirect route would not equal the 

inc reased difficulties of the passage of the Soane on the direct route, ib. -Mr. Turnbull 

fully concurred with witness as to the greater advantages of the indirect route, ib. 1988. 

Rioht of the Valley of the Ganges to a separate line, Kennedy 1988. 2018-Greater 

economy as regards locomotive power on the indirect line, on account of the gradients 

beino- more favourable than by the direct route; illustration hereon, ib. 2019-2023- 

Unless for passenger traffic at some future period the direct line can hardly be required at 
all ib. 2024-Mirzapore is a most important place for traffic, ib. 2025. 

Further statement in favour of the indirect rather than the direct route from Calcutta to 

Mirzapore, Kennedy 2099-2106-Impracticability of equally favourable gradients on 

the direct as on the indirect line, ib. 2102-2106. 

Grounds for preferring the Ganges route to the direct route to Mirzapore, Baker 3339, 

QQ . 0 _q^he direct line mio-ht have been sooner completed, and ai a less cost, but the 

gradients upon it must have been very heavy, ib. 3340-The greater value of the indirect 

than of the direct route to Mirzapore will repay the greater time in construction, ib. 
Q , 0Q q ^io_Importance of the question of gradients m considering the value respec¬ 

tively of the Ganges Valley line, and of the direct line to Mirzapore, ib. 354 G - 3543 * 

8. Preference given io the Direct Route over that by the Ganges Valley: 

The deviation from & the direct route to Mirzapore was not, in witness’s opinion advisable, 
but the railway company were of a different opinion, Noad 473, 474. 5 2 3 ~ 5 2 5 - 534~553 
—Grounds for the deviation from the direct route ; the better gradients on the indirect 
line wi re a main cause of the change, ib. 5 2 3, 5 2 4—Examination as to the advantages 
a d disadvantages respectively of each route to Mirzapore ; character cf the gradients, 
nature of the works, extent of the commerce, &c., in each case, ib. , 534 553 - 5 o 8 -o 7 ■ 

OQ « ° Thp indirect line is longer by about 120 or 130 miles ; disadvantage on this 
588 ‘ 6 T^to 1 ^- 547 —Devious course of the line from Calcutta to Delhi, «*. 

568-5/2. its respectively of the direct and indirect line to Mirzapore ; 

C rt^rTcould havTbLen finished earlier and a, a less cost than the latter, an,! on 
the formei 1 ,| the w | 10 le have been preferable, Sibley 1089-1099. 1145- 

the score of traffic would, on the data be corre(:t; th( . heavy cost of 

11 4®' the dl reel line to Mirzapore would counterbalance the advantages 

T his® or o* its be ng leh the shorter fine, ib. .,46-1171—The direct route ,s 
;"omUes and u,e indirect 540 miles, ib. ,,48—The populate and agricultural^- 

4I6-1. 
















20 


EAST INDIAN RAILWAY. 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


East Indian Railway— continued . 

8. Preference given to the Direct Route over that by the Ganges Valley —continued, 
ducts of the direct line are very scanty over about 150 miles of the line, Sibley 1172, 1173 

-Opinion that the direct line to Mirzapore, as well as the indirect line will eventually 

be made, ib. 1176. 

Further consideration of the cost of working the traffic, if the direct line to Mirzapore 
be made according to certain gradients; belief that goods may be carried more econo¬ 
mically than on the indirect line, Sibley 1185-1212-Opinion that in no case need 

there be a steeper gradient than 1 in 200 on the direct line; the cutting would in places 
be heavy, ib. 1201-1204. 1218, 1219. 

Grounds upon which witness recommended the direct line to Mirzapore, with branches, 
in preference to the Ganges Valley line, Sir M. Stephenson 3997, 3998. 

9 . Length of the Line to Delhi or Meerut: 

The line to Delhi or Meerut will be about 1,164 niiles long, Noad 478, 479. 

10. Heavy Character of the Works: 

Very heavy character of the works on the portion of the line under charge of witness* 

Sibley 1059, 1060-The engineering difficulties on the line are of an extraordinary 

character, Baker 2435, 2436-Heavy character of the works on the line, more espe¬ 

cially of the bridges required. Rep. p. vi. 

11. Respects in which Constructed for a Double Lint of Rails : 

The earthworks and the main bridges are constructed for a double line, but the 

Soane bridge is only made for a single line, Noad 1005. 1009. 1110-Explanation as 

to the extent to which the works of the railway are constructed for a double line, Baker 
3468-3471. 


12. Govemme it Supervision; Complaints and Explanation hereon: 

Opinion that the Government supervision in India is injurious to the company, and 

has caused some delay, Noad 628-630-Respect in which witness complains of the 

supervision exercised, through the Government engineers, over the engineers of the com¬ 
pany ; it is altogether of too detailed a character, and is very vexatious and obstructive, 

ib. 632-636-Letter from Mr. Turnbull to the company’s agent at Calcutta, dated 

21 January 1858, complaining of the excessive interference and control in the Rajmahal 
district, on the part of the Government; examination in support of the statements in 

this letter, ib. 639 et seq. --The letter of Mr. Turnbull was laid before Sir James Mel- 

vill, as ex officio director of the railway company, ib. 646-659. 

The expenditure sanctioned by the Government has never been sufficient, and the effect 
is most prejudicial to the carrying out of the undertaking, Noad 672-Further state¬ 

ment as to the irritation caused by the supervision of the military engineers over the rail¬ 
way engineers; professional capacity of the former adverted to hereon, ib. 714-72S. 734 

-Complaint in letter from Mr. Palmer, as to the supervision in trifling details, ib. 764 

-Engineering questions have not generally caused long disputes between the company 

and the Board of Directors, ib. 929-932. 

Irregular and inconvenient operation of the Government supervision over the under¬ 
taking, Sibley 1048-1055-Satisfactory result of the discretion allowed to witness in 

his particular district in the procuring of supplies, &c., ib. 1111,111 8—3 120-Injurious 

effect produced as regards the railway engineers by the minute interference of the 
Government engineers, ib. 1114—1117. 

Way in which witness, as consulting engineer to the Government of India, exercised 
his functions in regard to the engineering details of the East India Railway; deference 

shown, when proper, to the views of the railway engineer, Baker 3309-3311-Extent 

to which witness considered himself responsible in regard to the works, ib. 3312, 3313 

-Practice of the Government in checking the expenditure ; sanction, of late years, of 

the great majority of the indents without the previous sanction of the Supreme Govern¬ 
ment, ib. 3314-3317 -Considerable latitude given to the officers of the East India line 

in regard to contingent expenses, previous sanction not being required at all, ib. 3318- 
3325 - 

The accounts of expenditure and the progress reports were the only returns that were 
expected from the engineers, Baker 3328, 3329-Doubt as to the accuracy of a state¬ 

ment by Mr. Sibley in regard to the checks imposed in the case of an indent for lime, 

ib. 3378-3380-The Government is most anxious to do all it can towards expediting 

the works, ib. 3439. 3442, 3443 -The returns required from the engineers have been 

necessary and have not caused delay in construction, ib. 3505-3508. 

Invariable co-operation on the part of both the local authorities and home authorities 

in forwarding the undertaking, Sir M. Stephenson 4001. 4017-Steps taken by witness 

when in India to prevent the system of supervision from working injuriously, r'6. 4014. 

4052- 










E A S 


ENG 


21 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


East Indian Railway— continued. 

12. Government Supervision , fyc. —continued. 

4052-4058-Individuals are not blameable in any way for the delays through the 

defective system of supervision, Sir M. Stephenson 4015. 4017. 

13 . Staff; Refusal of an Application for an Increase: 

European staff of the company in India, Noad 631-Reference to a demand by Mr. 

Turnbull, the chief engineer to the company in the Lower Provinces, for an addition of 
25 per cent, to his staff; refusal of the local Government to allow such addition; increase 
of 10 per cent, ai once allowed by the Court of Directors, ib. 637-639. 644. 662, 663. 

678-680. 684-Probable delay through the non-compliance with Mr. Turnbull’s last 

indent for an increase of staff, ib. 733. 

Nature of the establishment of engineers and assistants in each district of the line, 
Noad 767-769-Selection of the staff of engineers, See., by Messrs. Rendel, the con¬ 

sulting engineers of the company ; class of persons selected ; there has not been a single 

instance of inefficiency, ib. 769-783-Insufficient number of engineers sanctioned by 

the Government; considerable inconvenience on this score, although no delay of any 

importance has arisen directly in consequence, ib. 773, 774. 784. 786-788-In almost 

all cases connected with the staff, the engineers of the company in India are obliged to 
refer to the local Government, who in important cases refer to this country, ib. 789-794. 

Witness has been employed since the autumn of 1851 as district engineer under Mr. 
Turnbull on certain portions of the East India Railway, Sibley 1041-1047-Incon¬ 

venience through the inadequacy of the staff, for an increase of which an application has 

been made, but has not yet been granted, ib. 1052-1055. 10S0-1082-Nature of the 

superintendence or inspection employed ovtr the native labourers, ib. 1075-1079- 

Extent of the European staff of inspectors and engineers asked for by the railway com¬ 
pany, ib. 1079. 

Inaccuracy of a certain statement as to sanctions being required before the appointment 

in India of any officer on the East India Railway, Baker 3326, 3327. 3393-3395- 

Statement in explanation of the refusal of Government to sanction a certain scale of 
engineering staff proposed by Mr. Turnbull, the. chief engineer of the Railway, ib. 3372 
-Efficiency on the whole of the railway engineers in Bengal, ib. 3455, 3456. 

A demand by the chief engineer of the East Indian Railway for an increased staff of 
engineers did not come before the Railway Board, Sir J. Melvill 3732, 3773 * 


14 . Rate of Expenditure in Construction: 

Excess of expenditure by the company over the estimated cost, Danvers 247-The 

railway wiil be constructed much within the estimate, Noad 731, 732-The estimated 

cost of the line per mile is 9,600/., including rolling stock, ib. 1006-Sundry items 

besides the mere cost of constructing of the 121 miles of the East India Railway now 
open, which are included in the expenditure hitherto of 12,000 Z. per mile, Sir M. 
Stephenson 4008-4012. 


15 . Amount of Traffic , and Rates charged: 

Rate of freight for passengers and goods over the line, Noad 944-Number of pas¬ 
sengers and tonnage of goods carried over the line since June 1855, ib. 95 °> 9 o l - 

The*traffic is in excess of the estimate, ib. 952, 953-Very low rates at which passen¬ 

gers and goods are carried, Sir M. Stephenson 4029, 4030. 

O o 

16 . Profits on the portion of the Line now in operation: 

The railway company have paid over about 170,000/. as profits to the East India 
Company, and have received in inteiest about 1,045,000/.; Noad 444.450.942,943 

_The experimental section of 121 miles is producing more than five per cent, profit, 

so that the East India Company would have nothing to pay with reference only to that 
section ib. 446-Highly satisfactory results of the experimental portion of the line; 

profit at present of about 6| per cent., t6. 938-941. 950-954 -The 121 miles now 

open pay about seven per cent., Sir M. Stephenson 4029. 

See also Agents in India. Bricks, 1. Bungalows, 1. Cawnpore to Allahabad. 
Coal and Coal Traffic. Gradients. inland Transport. Inundations. 

Jubbu/pore Extension. Lahore. Management. Mutiny. Pumping Engines. 
Santhal Rebellion. Soane Bridge. Timber'. 


Engineerin'* Difficulties. Numerous physical and engineering difficult.es in the way of 

the completion of several of the undertakings, Danvers 100-102-Reference to the 

numerous physical difficulties to the construction of the works in the crossing of the 
rivers and the surmounting of the ghauts; instances of the heavy character of these 

works, Rep. p. vi. 

See also Bombay , Buroda, and Central India Railway , 6. Bridges. East Indian 
Railway, 10. Great Indian Peninsular Railway, 4 . 


c 3 


416—I. 


Engineers. 


















Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Engineers. Efficiency of some civil engineers recently obtained by the Indian Government 

from this country for employment on public works, Baker 3444-3446-Operation of 

the colleges in India for the education of civil engineers, ib. 3529-3534-There has 

been occasional delay in obtaining the services of competent engineers, Sir J. Melvill 

3711-Testimonials required in the case of the officers sent out by the Companies, ib. 

3734 -Satisfactory conduct generally of the railway engineers in their exertions in the 

execution of the works, ib. 3744-Beneficial results anticipated from the operation of 

the engineering colleges at Roorkee and Calcutta, Sir M. Stephenson 4071, 4072. 4082- 

4084-Ability of the natives of India in imitating and carrying out the designs of 

others for public works, but not in themselves designing any great undertakings, ib. 
4073-4081. 4085-4087. 

Engines. Up to the present time 122 engines have been sent out for the East India Rail¬ 
way; their cost in this country and on arrival in India, Noad 955-961-Importance 

of due proportion between the power of the engines and the weight of the traffic on each 

line, Kennedy 2111-The ballast-engines and locomotives for the Bombay and Baroda 

line will be sent first to Bombay and thence by boats to Surat, ib. 2139-2142-Weight 

of the baliast-engines and of the train-engines ; they are to be sent out in pieces and put 
together at Surat, where an establishment is being formed, ib. 2143-2145. 

Establishment Expenses. Disposition at times of the railway engineers to undue establish¬ 
ment expenses, Baker 3392. 

Expedition in Construction. See Progress of the Works. 

Expenditure. Expediency of proper c mtrol over the expenditure, and in connexion with 
the guarantee, Danvers 229; Noad 632-634. 709. 912-915 ; Kennedy 1874. 1929-1931. 
2184, 2185. 2198-2203; Fears 2218-2220; Walker 2777 ; Andrew 3219. 3240, 3241 ; 
Baker 3501-3504 ; Sir J. Melvill 3700-3703. 3719, 3720. 379 8 ~38o l. 

Complete audit and control exercised in regard 10 all payments by the East India Rail¬ 
way Company, Noad 852-862-Notwithstanding the Government control there have 

been some few instances of objectionable expenditure in India, Sir J. Melvill 3682. 

3685-3687-Witness, as official director, would feel great hesitation in disallowing 

expenditure which had been sanctioned by the Indian Government, £6.3683,3684- 

Pjacticeas regards payments by the railway companies in London ' useful check on the 
part of the Court of Directors, ib. 3724-3730. 

See also Construction. Contracts. Cost. Supervision. 

Extensioji of Railways. Calculation as to the railway mileage required in India ; according 
to the amount in the United Stati s there should be 12,000 miles, with reference to the 

art a of each country, Kennedy 1759-1762-Inexpediency of any very large and sudden 

extension of the railway system, Sir J. Melvill 3622. 3739, 3740. 


F. 

Facilities of Construction. Respects in which there are greater natural facilities respec¬ 
tively in Bombay and Bengal, in the construction of railways, Baker 3400, 3401. 

Financial Results. It is essemially to the financial interest of the Indian Government to 
encourage the construction of railways, Kennedy 1904, 1905. 1934. 

See also Profits. 

Freeman, John. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Has resided for upwards of twenty-five years 

in the district between Calcutia and Benares, 1179-Gives evidence t<> the effect that 

there are ample faciliiies in India for making bricks to an unlimited extent, 1180-1184. 

Freights. Probable difficulty as regards freight for the conveyance of increased materials 
from ibis country; practice hereon, Danvers 104-112-Further reference to the ques¬ 

tion of freights ; hitherto there has been no difficulty in the conveyance of the requisite 
materials, ib. 274-284. 291-294. 

Number of vessels employed by the East India Railway Company in taking out mate- 

ri ds, Noad 488-Grounds for concluding that it will always be possible to procure any 

supply of freight to India that may be demanded by the necessities of the railways, Ken¬ 
nedy 2121-2126-Much lower amount of the rate of freight outwards than homewards, 

ib. 2123-2125-Practice of the Bombay and Central India Railway Company in 

obtaining freights, ib. 2137, 2138-Rate of freight for the transmission of material for 

the Madras line; difficulty at one period in procuring freight to Madras, Walker 2652- 
2654. 

Advantage of the position of witness at the Boards as a means of preventing compe¬ 
tition for freight, Sir J. Melvill 3708-Li nit to construction on the score of freight; 

that is, if the materials are still to be sent from this country, ib. 3740. 3815-3820. 

Considerable source of difficulty and delay on the score of freight, Rep. p. v. 

Freshfield, 












F RE 


G RE 


23 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Freshfield, Charles. Letter from Mr. Freshfield to the chairman of the Court of Directors, 
dated 20 January 1857, to the effect that the Government run no risk by reason of their 
guarantee, and setting forth the great benefits to be derived Irom the railways, App. 
p. 298-305. 

Fuel. Reference by the Committee to the difficulties of construction through the want of 
fuel for lime and brick burning, Rep. p. v. 


G. 


Ganges Canal. Gieat importance of the Ganges Canal, and great credit clue to the Govern¬ 
ment for its mode of execution, Kennedy 1 88g— 1 89 1 - Immense use of bricks on the 

works of the Ganges Canal, Baker 3368-3371-Advantage on the score of cost and 

time in the execution of the works on the Ganges Canal as compared with the railway 
works, ib. 3412-3418. 

Ganges Valley Line. See East Indian Railway , 7 . 8. 

Ghauts. Considerable impediments to rapid construction through the heavy works required 
in the passing of the ghauts, Rep. p. vi. 

See also Great Indian Peninsula Railway , 4 . 

Government Construction of the Lines. See Construction, 2. 3 . 

Government Supervision. See Supervision. 

Gradients. Statement as to the refusal of the Bengal Government to sanction gradients of 
more than 1 in 500 on the East India Railway, Noad 589. 603-605. 616-620 The 
ruling gradient over the portion of the East India line under witness is 1 in 500; at first 
there'vvas a restriction 10 a. gradient of 1 in 1000, which would have required much heavier 

works, Sibley 1061-1064-Considerable saving on ihe earthwoiks between Rajmahal 

and Colgong, by the extension of the gradient to 1 in 200, ib. 1086-1088. 

Importance of easy gradients on ihe railways in India, Baker 3333 ~ 333 ® Explana 
tion as to a permission by witness to Mr. Sibley to reduce the gradients, wherever neces¬ 
sary, in his district of the East India Railway to 1 in 5 ^ 0 * 3334 '' 333 ^• 

With the exception of the ghauts and the rivers the general face of the country 
seems favourable for railway construction, presenting for the most part easy gradients, 
Rep. p. vi. 


Great Indian Peninsula Railway: 

1. Origin and Outline of the Undertaking. 

2. Progress made with the Works. 

3 . Contracts. 

4. Heavy Works over the Thul and Bliore Ghauts, qc. 

5 . Cost. 

6 . Traffic Receipts and Expenditure. 

7. Government Supervision. 

8. Other Evidence generally. 


1 Origin and Outline of the Undertaking . 

The scheme° of the Company was originated by Mr. John Chapman in the spring of 
jO,r but the Act of incorporation was not obtained till August 1849, Watt 3006-3009 
45 in Wusffsla the Company contracted with the Court of Directors to make a 

~. l' ‘ Unmhav to Callian a distance of thirty-three miles; this was completed m May 

l,ne from Bombay to Callian, « ^ J M now sanctioned is 1,235 miles; 

the 5 se are madtup by the main line to Jubbulpore^ and by lines to Magpore and the 

these me made“P °y „ 022 _, 02 ,_The Madras Company have not been ready to 

krver Kistna, ib. ^3019. 3 3 *5 ^ ^ and the p enin sula line, ib. 3025, 3026- 

^hepo^on^between Sholapore and the River Kistna, thatis 110 miles, is in abeyance, 

ib. 3025. 3121. 

2 Progress made with the Works : . 

T pn t*h of the lines portion completed, and periods at which it is estimated the 

Length of the 1 » P 1 t d Danvers 74-Mileage now open, under con- 

remaimng works will P ’ with h d 7 d 4 tes at which further portions will be 

stru rv:;^//°3---pa';r r d ’ d Xe red by m, w.«. ^ .5* i*#. 

showing the |. resent position of the undertaking, App. p. 291. 


The European contractors have all gone outjrmn this 

^p^rlr^arive Contract,or who has performed his contract most 









24 


G R E 


G U A 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Great Indian Peninsula Railway— continued. 

3 . Contracts —continued. 

satisfactorily, Watt 3044-3049-Employment by the European contractors of native 

sub-contractors; advantage thereof, ib. 3101-3105. 

4 . Heavy Works over the Thul and Bhore Ghauts , fyc.: 

Particulars as to the heavy and exceedingly costly character of the works necessary in 
the crossing of the Thul Ghaut on the main line and of the Bhore Ghaut on the line to 

the Kistna, Watt 3027-3042. 3045-Steep gradients over portions of the distance in 

crossing the ghauts, ib. 3029, 3039-Difficulty on the score of labour of the works at 

the Bhore Ghaut, and consequent check to the progress of the works, ib. 3040, 3041. 

3147-3149-Mention of several heavy works on the line in the shape of bridges and 

viaducts, ib. 3054-3058-Particulars as to the delay before sanction was given to take 

the works over Bhore Ghaut and the Thul Ghaut; alternative lines contemplated by 

Government, ib. 3073-3089-The Thul Ghaut works were only commenced in February 

last; those on the Bhore Ghaut were begun in February last, ib. 3146. 3148. 

Reference to the stupendous task undertaken by the company as regards the passage 
of the Thul Ghaut and the Bhore Ghaut, Rep. p. vi. 

5 . Cost: 

The whole railway is estimated to cost not more than 6,500 1 . a mile; the eighty-eight 

and a half miles now open have cost 9,000/. a mile, Watt 3051-3053-About 

9,000,000/. may be required for the whole 1,235 miles, ib. 3124. 

6 . Traffic Receipts and Expenditure: 

The company have paid to the Government about 70,000/. towards the 460,000/. 

received as interest, Watt 3125-3127-Very satisfactory receipts on the completed 

portion of the line; grounds for anticipating largely increased receipts from the con¬ 
veyance of suit, cotton, &c., when the line is extended into the interior of the country, ib. 

3128-3140-In 1857 the net earnings were equal to 4^ per cent, on the expenditure at 

9,000/. a mile, ib. 3131. 

Statement of receipts and working expenses, revenue account, for half-yearly periods 
from April 1853 to 3 l December 1857, App. p. 292. 

7 . Government Supervision : 

Lieutenant-Colonel Crawford was till May 1856, and Captain Rivers has since been, 

the Government consulting engineer on ihe line. Watt 3160-Absence of any undue 

supervision or interference during the time of Colonel Crawford, ib. 3060. 3094-3096 

-Interference on the part of Captain Rivers as regards the portion of the completed 

line near Callian, ib. 3060-3062-There has been no avoidable delay in the construc¬ 

tion of the lines when sanctioned, ib. 3091-3093. 

Reference to the circumstance of the Bombay Government officers having on the whole 
worked very harmoniously with tt.e Board of the Great Indian Peninsula Company in 
India, Sir J. Melvill 3607-3610. 

The relations between the Government and the railway officials appear to have been 
for the most part of a harmonious and satisfactory character, Rep. p. v. 

8. Other Evidence generally: 

Total amount of the guaranteed capital in shares and loans, Watt 3020, 3021-Mr. 

James Berkeley is the chief engineer, ib. 3035, 3036-The line is a double one as far 

•as Callian; reason of this, ib. 3053, 3144-Ample supply of stone readily available 

along the line, ib. 3108-3110-Particulars as to the difficulty and delay experienced 

in obtaining sanction for the extension from Callian to Munwar and Jubbulpore, ib. 3063 
-3072. 

There is a register for the transfer of shares in Bombay, and many natives are share¬ 
holders, Watt 3118-3120-Total of 3,682,238/. as the amount of capital paid up out 

of < ight millions, ib. 3123-About 460,000 l. has been received as interest, ib. 

See also Agents in India. 

Great Southern of India Railway. There is a scheme, the Great Southern of India, now 
under consideration by the Court of Directors, Danvers 26, 27. 67. 

Guarantee. Explanation of the course pursued by the East India Company with reference 
to the first proposition for the construction of the East Indian and Great Indian Peninsula 
Railways; refusal of the Board of Control to sanction the guarantee first proposed by the 

company in aid of those undertakings, Danvers 15-Settlement ultimately in August 

1849 of the terms of the contracts with the East Indian and Great Indian Peninsula 
Companies, such terms being adhered to as the basis of all subsequent undertakings, ib. 

-Guarantee by the Government of 5 /. per cent, interest on the capital of the subscribers 

for 99 years, ib. 30. 33. 54. 

Explanation of the several conditions attached to the Government guarantee, and with 

reference to the future possession of the lines, Danvers 34-39-There are six guaranteed 

undertakings; 














GU A 


I N D 


Report, 1857-8 —continued. 


2 5 


Guarantee —continued. 

undertakings ; names of these, Danvers 65. 67-Difference at first between the com¬ 

panies and ‘he Court of Directors m regard to the guarantee being onp of dividend or of 
interest; how this difference was settled, ib. 144-162 ; Sir J. Melvill 3887, 3888. 

Repudiation by the Court of Directors, in September 1848, in its negotiations with the 
East Indian Railway Company of the term “guaranteed dividend;- subnotion 
eventually of a guaranteed interest of five per cent, for ninety-nine years, 

- Circumstance cited in proof of the first understanding about the guarantee having 

been that it was to be a guaranteed dividend, ib. 377-The terms eventually obtained 

are, m witness* opinion, better than those first asked for, ib. 378- Probability of the 

k/ast India Company at present paying the guarantee out of the balance of the subscribed 
railway capital deposited with them; propriety of their doing so, ib. 408, 409. 
4 -/~ 443 * 


Witness considers the expenditure on the railways to be as much public monev as any 

money that is raised on loan, Pears 2373-2375-In the expenditure on the works liiere 

can be no risk on ihe pait of the company, inasmuch as the money is all o-uaranteed ; in 
fact, the larger the expenditure the betier for the shareholders as regards immediate 

returns, ib. 2403-2409. 2451-2457-Necessity of a guaranteed interest as a means of 

raising capital, Pears 2428. 2430; Andrew 3234; Rep. p. vii. 

Witness does not see much commercial enterprise in the fact of English capital havino- 

been subscribed for the railways upon a safe guarantee. Pears 2429-2431—_Witness 

concurs with Colonel Pears in his view that the capital subscribed does not represent 
so much private euterp.Ne; the money is merely a loan, and the shareholders are free 
from risk, Baker 2461-2463. 

The Government, cannot exercise too much vigilance and caution in granting o-uarantees 

Sir J. Melvill 3621,3622-Risk incurred by the guarantee; the capital may, in fact" 

be regarded as public money, ib. 3623, 3624-View of the Home Government that the 

trunk lines only should be guaranteed,^. 3639-3641. 

Reference to a letier from Mr. Charles Freshfield, dated 20 January 1857, as showing - 
that the guarantee principle is in no way financially onerous to the East India Company 3 , 

Sir M. Stephenson 3995, 3996, and App. p. 298-305-Statistical information provided 

by witness formed the basis of the Government guarantee, Sir M. Stephenson 4005-4007 
-Obstacles to a direct loan by the East India Company for the formation of the rail¬ 
ways, ib. 4023, 4024. 

See also Madras Railway , 2. Peel, Sir Robert (the late). Wilson, Mr. 


H. 

Home Government. See Board of Control. Court of Directors. Guarantee. Pre¬ 
liminary Negotiations. Supervision, 1 . 


I. 

Incorporation of Companies. Necessity of the railway companies being incorporated by 
Act of Parliament previously to the sanction of the Court of Directors, Danvers 
233 - 2 35 - 


Indents. Practice as regards the consideration of indents or requisitions from India for 
materials for the railways; routine and correspondence necessary on this score, Danvers 
49-64. 169-201-Opinion given by the Government engineer in India as to the pro¬ 
priety of acceding to requisitions for materials, ib. 236—239-Absence of any undue 

delav through the practice of considering the indents, ib. 272, 273. 

Sundry channels through which indents from the railway engineers in India pass before 

they are complied with, Noad 702-Improvement through the ex officio director having 

been recently empowered to sanction indents for materials, ib. 829. 888. 923-926- 

Illustration of the enhanced expense incurred through the form required in the sanction¬ 
ing of indents, Sibley 1111-1113. 

Different channels through which all indents by witness are obliged to go, Bruce 1730, 
1731-Very considerable delay before indents are complied with from home; impossi¬ 
bility always of anticipating this delay, ib. 1739-1748-Improvement if supplies, once 

sanctioned by the Government in India, could be forwarded from this country without the 
present double sanction, ib. 1748-1750. 

Delay as regards the Madras line necessarily consequent upon the system first laid 
down in this country in regard to requisitions for materials ; this system explained, 

Walher 2710-2713-Considerable improvement in June 1855, and subsequently in the 

system adopted, before compliance with requisitions, ib. 2713, 2714-Instance of tapid 

4! g_I. D compliance 













26 


I N D 


J U B 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Indents —continued. 

compliance with a requisition for some axles and wheels, the Court of Directors having 
relaxed the rules on this occasion. Walker 2714-2719. 

As little time as possible is occupied in India in the settlement of indents, Baker 3440, 

344 1 • 

Important and useful enlargement in March last of witness’s power at the railway 
boards in regard to indents for railway materials, Sir J. Melvill 3575-3587, 3615-3617. 

3695-3699-Indents for increase of establishment still go through the same process as 

formerly was required in the case of indents for materials ; this process explained, ib. 
3579-3583-Delay consequent upon the former practice in regard to indents for mate¬ 

rials, more especially on account of the reference to the Board of Control, ib. 3581-3585. 
3656-3659. 

The former system as regards the sanctioning of indents necessarily entailed a very 

considerable amount of delay and correspondence, Rep. p. iv-The best results may 

be anticipated from the judicious changes lately effected in this respect, ib. 

Indus Navigation. Scheme of river steam navigation from Hyderabad to Moultm, em¬ 
braced in the project of the Scinde Railway Company, Andrew 3187-3192-Difficulties 

experienced as regards the determination of the proper kind of boat for the navigation 

of the Indus, ib. 3204-3206-Origin and character of the first communications by 

witness on the subject of the navigation of the Indus, from Hyderabad to Moultan, ib. 
3263-3273-Reference to the date and character of Mr. Bourne’s plan for the naviga¬ 
tion of toe Indus; a subsidy has been granted for it, ib. 3265, 3266. 3283-3285- 

Further explanation as to the use proposed to be made of the river, and as to the present 
character of the navigation ; profitable traffic expected, ib. 3277-3295-Encourage¬ 

ment by the Court of Directors of the steam navigation of the Indus, ib. 3290-3292. 

Inland Transport. Great difficulties and expense in the conveyance of the materials up 
the country for the East India railway, Noad 489-491. 520, 521. 573. 601. 612. 614 

- Heavy cost of conveying materials from Calcutta up to Ailahabad, &c.; less cost 

from England to Calcutta, ib. 573-Injurious effect upon the progress of the works 

through the Government impressment ol carriages and animals, Sibley 1100-1107- 

Ample supply of carriages or hackerys for the conveyance of materials ; nature of these 
vehicles, ib. 1213-1217. 

There has been some delay on the Madras works, through the pressing of carts and 
bullocks for Government, Walker 2742. 

Measures taken or to be taken by the East India Railway Company for sending the 
permanent way up the country; impression that the best means have not been employed. 

Baker 3515-3521-Great difficulty in the conveyance up the country of the permanent 

way, &e. required for the. East India line, Sir J. Melvill 3767-3771. 3821 ; Sir M. Ste¬ 
phenson 3999 ; Rep. p. v-Steps taken in the matter by the railway company, Sir M. 

Stephenson 3999. 

Interest on Dividends. Conditions as regards iiiterest to the East India Company on 
advances by them towards the payment of interest, that is, if the profii be more than 

equal to the guarantee, Noad 447-450-Hardship upon witness’s company in being 

charged with interest upon the dividends whilst there are large sums of theirs in the hands 
of the East India Company, Kennedy 2208-2212. 

Inundations. Difficulty as regards the works on the East India railway on accountof floods; 

very large bridges required in consequence, Noad 514, 515. 526-529-Increased 

works on the Ganges Valley line in order to provide against the periodical large inunda¬ 
tions, the. effects of which were not properly calculated upon at first, Baker 2431-2434. 

Iron. Difficulty as regards the production of iron in India ; steps taken by the Board of 

Directors to develope the iron mines, Danvers 114-123-Estimate of 1,075,000 tons 

of iron, as the quantity required for the sanctioned works, ib. 124-126. 131-135- 

Objection to the East India Railway Company undertaking iron or coal works; greater 

advantage in sending all iron material from this country, Noad 967-969. 995-999- 

Superior quality of the iron in the Madras Presidency, ib. 1000- Encouragement by 

witness of the production and manufacture of native iron; results thereof, Sir M. Ste¬ 
phenson 4000. 4048. 


J. 

Jubbulpore Extension (East Indian Railway). There is to be a line from Mirzapore to 
Jubbulpore, 300 miles long; this will not be very difficult of execution, Danvers 211 — 

213-Remarks relative to the long time taken by the Court of Directors before the 

settlement of the contract for the Jubbulpore line, Noad 831-838. 922-The probable 

cost of the Jubbulpore line is estimated at 7,800 l. a mile, exclusive of rolling stock, ib. 
1038. 1040. 














KENNEDY. 


27 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


K. 

Kennedy , Colonel John Pitt. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Went to India in 1849; was 
appointed consulting engineer to the Government of India in the railway department in 
the summer of 1850, and returned to this country through ill health in tbe spring of 
5 . 1 > 1 7 fi 1-1 754 Is now consulting engineer for the Bombay, Baroda and Central 

India Kmlway, 1755-Considers that the construction of railways in India is most 

essential for the improvement ol the country, and for the maintenance of the political 
and commercial interests of England, 1756, 1757. 

Estimate that a proper system of railways would render possible a reduction of at 
least 7,000,000/. a year on the military expenditure that must henceforth be incurred, 
l 75 $ Still greater importance of railways in a commercial than in a political point of 

vie", 1758- 1820--Calculation as to the railway mileage required; according to the 

amount in the United States, there should be 12,000 miles, 1759-1762-—Single lines 

can be made for about 6,000/. a mile, so that 72,000,000/. would be required to make 

12,000 miles, 1763-1766-The cost of a double line, as compared with a single line, 

is as about eight to five, 1767-All the bridges must be constructed for double lines, 

1768. 

Calculation that sections of 200 miles in length may, under certain condition*!, be 

completed every three years, 1769-1771-Satisfactory progress being made with the 

Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway, 1772--Considerable delay on account 

of the Home Government not having sanctioned, till November 1857, the most important 
portion of the line, that is, from Bombay to Surat; belief that the refusal was on the part 

of the Board of Control, 1 773 —1 79 1 * 1865-1868-Unavailableness of Surat as a port 

of shipment, 1787-1791. 

Greater engineering difficulties on the line between Surat and Ahmedabad than between 

Surat and Bombay, 1792, 1793-Difficulty at the present time in regard to the line 

coming into Bombay; way in vvh;ch this difficulty should be overcome, 1794-1801. 1852- 

1871-Objections to the Central India Line being forced to join the Great Indian 

Peninsula line at some point near Bombay; importance, instead, of an independent access 
to Bombay, and a separate terminus there, 1802-1804. 1869-1871. 

Considerable importance of the line to Bombay on account of the facilities thereby for 
the conveyance of cotton lorGuzerat, 1805-1813. 1820-1839-Absence of undue com¬ 

petition between witness’s line and the Great India Peninsula as regards the connexion 

with Indore and other places, 1814-1819-Rich country, in the production of cotton, 

opium and indigo, through which the Central India line will pass, 1821. 

Further reference to the great advantages of railways in India, in a military point of view, 

1840. 1845-Great importance of railways in developing the- agricultural resources and 

natural products of the country, 1846-1851——Different gradients on different parts of 

the Bombay and Central India line, 1855-1861- -Obstacles raised to a separate line into 

Bombay further adverted to; anticipation that before long the objections of the Govern¬ 
ment may be removed, 1865-1871. 

Witness delivers in a progress reportpf works on the first concession (143 miles) of line 
from Surat to Ahmedabad, framed to ascertain how far the rale of expenditure is in 
accordance with the original estimate, both as regards money and time, 1872--Consi¬ 

derable importance of accurate progress reports; they should be made monthly, and 

should be properly audited, 1872-Careful estimates should first be made, and should 

be followed by progress reports, as a substitute for the present system of supervision, 1872. 

1911. 1924, 1925-The question as to the mode by which witness’s line should approach 

Bombay arises at a point about 30 miles distant, 1873. 

Importance of the principle of good and vigilant Government supervision over the con¬ 
struction of the railways, 1874. 1931--Expediency however of the present supervision 

beino - modified, so that the railway engineers may not be unnecessarily impe led or 

harassed in detail matters, 1874. 1876. 1924. 1925/ 1931-Advantage if the decision 

of the ex officio Government director in England were final except on important questions, 
1875, 1876. 

Suggestion that the railway engineers should receive bonuses for efficient and quick 

work ,'~ 1877-1883-Advantage of the companies executing the works through their 

own officers rather than by contracts, 1877. 1885-Low salaries on witness’s line on 

account of the system of bonus being established, 1880-1882-But for Government 

interference the best direction would from the first have been selected for the line, 1884 
_ a principle it Would have been better if Government bad undertaken the construc¬ 
tion of the railways; practical obstacles however to their doing so advantageously, 1885- 
1903 - 

It is essentially to the financial interest of the Indian Government to encourage the 

construction of railways, 1904, 1905. 1934-Facility for providing unguaranteed capital 

for the extension of the railway system, that is, if confidence be given by the results ot 

the present undertakings, 1906-1911. 1934-Objection to the system ot a duecting 

416—1. D ^ b0ard 



















28 


KENNEDY. 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Kennedy , Colonel John Pitt. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

board in India lor the execution of the works; a single responsible officer is much 

better. 1912, 1913-More than two-thirds of the payments in connexion with witness’s 

line have been made in England, 1914, 1915* 

Difficulties as regards supplies of wooden sleepers in India which have necessitated the 

transmission of sleepers from this countiy, 1915, 1916.-1918-1920-Means of pro* 

curing excellent sleepers from Australia, 1916, 1917. 1921)-Advantage anticipated 

from the use of iron sleepers in India; recommendations already made by witness on this 
point has not been sanctioned by the home Government, 1920-1923. 1927, 1928. 1936- 

1948-Approval of the office of the Government consulting engineer in India, provided 

there be less interference in detail, 1929-1931-No portion of witness’s line is yet open, 

1932-Satisfacioiy receipts on the lines hitherto opened, 1933, 1934. 

How far the Government of India can be said to have pursued a course of delay and 

neglect in regard to the railways, 1935-Advantage if there were a practical and 

eminent professional man to consider questions on the part of the Indian Government at 
home; Sir James Melvill does not decide important engineering questions, 1949-1954 

-Greater powers recently conferred on the ex officio director, and greater despatch 

consequently in the seulement of questions in this country, 1955-1957. 

[Second Examination,]—Calculation showing the great importance, in a financial point 
of view, of expedition in the execution of the w'orks ; enhanced cost as the works are 
prolonged; examination as to the accuracy of the data upon which this calculation is 

based, 1958-1979--Table, in illustration of the foregoing calculation, containing a 

financial analysis of the Indian Government guarantee principle, as applied to the time to 
be occupied in the construction of the line of 335 miles between Bombay and Ahtned- 

abad ; data for this table considered, 1958-1979. 1999-Reference to the bridging of 

the rivet s, as the great and almost the only practical impediment to railway construction 
in India, 1969-1973. 1990-2011. 2026, 2027. 

Nature of the progress made with the surveys and works of the East Indian line when 

witness left India in 1851 ; 1980-1982-Full approval by witness, when Government 

consulting engineer in India, of everything that was proposed to be done as regards the 

construction of the East Indian line, 1982-1984-Personal inspection of the line by 

witness; with reference to ihe direction proposed to be taken, 1984-1988-Explanation 

in deiail as to the giounds upon which witness recommended the indirect or Ganges 
Valley line to Mirzapore, in preference to the direct line, 1987 et seq. 

Further examination relative to the route of the Bombay, Baroda and Central India 
Railway, as recommended by witness; consideration of several objections raised to this 
line, more especially to the portion proposed between Bombay and Surat, 2028 et seq. 

-Consideration of the probable amount of traffic along this railway, and of the rates at 

which it can be carried, 2034-2077. 2085-2090-Further reference to the advantage of 

the line from Bombay to Surat, &c. for the carriage of cotton, 2050, 2051.2057- 

Explanation as to the main object of the Bombay and Central India line ; the principal 
branch, that is the Taptee line, was to go on to Mirzapore, 2053-2056. 

Considerations as to the heavy nature of some of the works on the Bombay and Baroda 
line, more especially as regards the crossing of the Bassein and other inlets of the sea, 

and of the Nerbudda,Taptee, and Mhye rivers, 2067-2084. 2148-2160-Doubt as to the 

delay before the commencement of the railway works in India being attributable to any 

other causes besides the action of the Government authorities, 2091-2094-Impression 

that delay had not arisen, when witness left India, through any deficiency in the supply 
of bricks, 2095-2098. 

Further statement in favour of the indirect rather than the direct route from Calcutta 

to Mirzapore, 2099-2106-Necessity of sending large supplies of sleepers from England 

for the Bombay and Central India line, on account of advices just received as to the 

high price of sleepers in Bombay, 2107-Considerable advantage of iron sleepers over 

wooden sleepers further adverted to, more especially as regards their duration, 2108, 2109. 

Bad economy in the construction of tramroads in India instead of railroads, 2j 10- 

The only economical piinciple is a good and efficient railroad, 2110, 2111-Importance 

of due proportion between the power of the engines and the weight of the traffic on each 

line, 2111-Preference further given to the system of construction through officers of 

the companies rather than through contractors, 2112. 

On the Bombay and Central India Railway there are now one engineer and tweuty-eight 

assistants; how these are distributed, 2113-2115-Practice on the line in regard to 

the agency employed in the inspection of the works during execution, 2116-2118- 

Loss of several valuable officers through sickness and death, 2119-Undue impediment 

to the employment ofan adequate staflfof engineers, 2119-2120-One engineer to every 

ten mihs would amply repay the cost of the salaries, ana would be a good establishment, 
2120. 

Grounds for concluding that it will always be possible to procure any supply of freight 

to India that may be demanded by the necessities of the railways, 2121-2126 -Much 

lower 








KEN 


LAB 


29 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Kennedy , Colonel John Pitt. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

lower amount of the rate of freight outwards than homewards, 2123-2125-Large 

saving in freights if iron sleepers be adopted, 2123. 

The weight of the rail sent out by witness’s company is sixty-two pounds per yard ; 

it appears to answer, 2127,2128-Ir<>n sleepers or bearers, for about twenty miles, have 

been allowed to be sent out as an experiment, 2129, 2130-The iron sleepers, which 

are known by the name of Adam’s girder-rail, have been tried with success in this 

country; they are on the longitudinal principle, 2130--2132-The w-ooden sleepers 

sent out have all been creosoted, 2133—2136. 

Practice of the railway company in obtaining freights, 2137, 21 38-The ballast 

engines and locomotives w ill be sent first to Bombay, and thence by boats to Sural, 2139- 

2142-Weight of the ballast engines, and of the train engines; they are to be sent out 

in pieces, and put together at Surat, where an establishment is being formed, 2143- 

2145. 

Further statement as to the progress made with the works on the Bombay and Central 
India Line ; if there were 600 miles in hand they might be opened in about three years, 

2146, 2147-More advanced progress if the company could have ac ted on the sanction 

of the line by tbe Governor-General, 2161-2163-Advantage generally if the selection 

and sanction of the lines were left to the Governor-General, after the Home Government 
had assented to the financial arrangements, 2162, 2163. 

Statement as to the occurrence and the extent of delay through the absence of power 
in Sir James Melvill to decide questions at the railway board of witness’s company, 2166— 

2177-Instances of delay through the refusal to sanction the appointment of engineers, 

2178, 2179-Improvement if the present powers of Sir J. Melvill enabled him to decide 

all ordinary questions on the part of the Court of Directors, 2180. 

Way in which the supervision by the Government engineer in Bombay, Colonel Craw¬ 
ford, or by his subordinate, has disheartened the railway engineers and created delay, 

2181-2190. 2204-2207-Usefulness of Government supervision if exercised with great 

discretion; probable absence of delay in such case, 2184, 2185. 2198-2203-Fitness 

of military engineers for the control of the railway engineers considered ; importance of 
the former having had previous experience in railway works, 2191-2197. 

Importance of the Government consulting engineer being a person in whom both the 

Government and the companies can feel confidence, 2199, 2200-Further approval of 

a system of monthly reports, as presenting a means of adequate supervision, 2201-2203 

-Hardship upon witness’s Company in being charged with interest upon the dividends 

whilst there are large sums of theirs in the hands of the East India Company, 2208-2212. 

Kudulhoondy Bridge {Madras). Illustration in the case of the Kudulhoondv Bridge, of 
the inconvenience and delay consequent upon the reference of questions to the consulting 
engineer of the company in England, Pears 2526-2530. 2582-2593. 

Explanation relative to the considerable time which elapsed in reference to the bridge 
over the Kudulhoondy; final settlement of the question in this country. Walker 2845- 

2847- 

Kurrachee Harbour. Intention of the East India Company to improve the harbour of 
Kurrachee; the harbour has been very favourably reported upon, Andrew 3238, 


L. 


Labour. Particulars as to the supply of native labour on the East India Railway works, 

and the payment made for it, Noad 795-810-Great difficulty in procuring labour in 

the Rajmahal districts in consequence of the Santhal insurrection, ib. 795-The rate 

per day is about 2 \d. or 3d., ib. 807-About four natives are equal, as regards work, 

to one European navvy, ib. 809, 810. 

Reference to the operation of an impressment act lately passed in India for impressing 
labour ; exemption of railway labourers from its operation, Noad 811 -823 The natives 
are very handy workmen ; they are not employed as skilled labourers, Sibley 1074. 1077 
_The Government demand for labour has not interfered with railway construction, ib. 

1100. 


Labour was after a time readily procured for the Madras Railway, Bruce 1257-The 

labourers were paid regularly every week, ib. 1258-Difficulty as regards the supply 

of skilled native labour, but not as regards unskilled labour, ib. »339 - * 1 34^ Require¬ 

ment at. one time by the Government that natives should be employed as masons, &c.; 

illustration of the objections to this requirement, ib. 1523-1526. 1 535 -Witness would 

not have European superintendents exclusively; in some places trustworthy natives 
might be employed as inspectors, &c., but as a .ule they should be under Europeans * 5 . 

1540-1647 _Delay on the Madras line through inadequate supplies of labour, Walker 

2742. 


416—I. 


»3 


Employment 










Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Labour —continued. 

Employment on the Great Indian Peninsular line, of natives as well as Europeans, as 
inspectors, &c., Watt 3033, 3034. 

Latitude allowed as regards the amount and distribution of labour on the East India 
line, Baker 3330, 3331-Relative rates of pay on Government works and on the rail¬ 
way, ib. 3382. 3418-Particular class of natives employed on the railway works, ib. 

3383-3388-Further reference to the rate of wages respectively on the railway works 

and on public uorks, the pay is sufficient to provide food for the men and their families, 
Baker 3494-3500. 

Want of skilled native labour on the Great Indian Peninsular line, Sir J. Melvill 3629 

-Difficulty in obtaining skilled labour in India, though not from this country, ib. 

3741-Endeavour to employ the labour and materials of the country, as far as possible; 

instances of this, Sir M. Stephenson 3999. 4000. 

See also Compulsory Labour. 

Lahore. The extension to Lahore is certainly a part of the system of the East Indian 
railway, Noad 916. 

Land. Engagement by the Indian Government to guarantee, free of expense, all the land 
required for the railways, Danvers 29. 

Local Governments {India). Adoption by the Home Government of all lines sanctioned by 

the Indian and local governments, Danvers 223, 224-How far the Government of 

India or the local governments can be said to have pursued a course of delay and neglect 

in regard to the railways, Kennedy 1935-It is only on very important questions that 

the local governments refer to the central Government, Baker 3305, 3306.3315-3317 
-It is not the practice to refer to the supreme Government for the decision of any 

. questions about demands for increased staff in the Presidencies, ib. 3373-3375-It 

would be well if the Home Government were to delegate to the local authorities every¬ 
thing connected with the execution of the works and with the management and detail of 
the railways, Pears 3924-3926. 

See also Supervision , II. 

Local Management. See Agents in India. Management. 


Madras Railway: 


M. 


1. Preliminary Proceedings in connexion with the Sanction of the Scheme. 

2. Varying Rates of Guarantee. 

3 . Amount of Capital paid up. 

4 . Sanction of the Cuddapah Route instead of the Banga lore route ; Merits 
of each. 

5 . Line to Bellary. 

6. Bangalore Branch. 

7 . Progress of the Works. 

8. Cost. 

9. Traffic. 

10. Profits. 

11. Question of Construction by the Madras Government. 

12 . Native Contracts. 

13 . Staff. 

14 . Absence of a system of Transfer of Shares in Madras. 

15 . Improvement if the Executive Management were local. 

16 . Generally as to the Government Supervision of the Works; Complaints and 

Explanations hereon. 

17 . Complaint and Explanation as to the advances of Money by the Local 

Government. 

18 . Complaint and Explanation as to the system of Monthly Reports and Pub¬ 

lication adopted by Government. 

19 . Complaint as to the Supervision exercised over the Traffic Arrangements. 

20. Stoppage of the Works in the Salem District with the view to the adoption 

of a different Route. 

21. Branch Line to the Government Salt Depdt. 

22. Chief Engineer : way in which his Duties were fulfilled. 

23 . Proceedings of the Court of Directors in regard to the Local Supervision. 


1. Preliminary Proceedings in connexion with the Sanction of the Scheme: 

Account of the early history of the Madras Railway ; the scheme assumed its present 

development about the end of 1853, Bruce 1227-1235-A company was formed in 

1845, for the purpose of constructing a railway at Madras ; but after two years’ unsuc¬ 
cessful 







MADRAS RAILWAY. 


3i 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Madras Railway— continued. 

1. Preliminary Proceedings in connection with the sanction of the Scheme— cont d . 

cessful application for a guarantee, it wound up in 1847, W alker 2605-2509-The pre¬ 

sent company applied for a guarantee in May 1849, but were unsuccessful, ib. 2610- 
2613. 

In February 1850, the company renewed the application, and subsequently took other 
steps in the matter, and in May 1852, a guarauteeof 4^ per cent, was given 011500,000/. 
tor aline trv>m Madras to Arcot, Walker 2614-2623-Arrangements in 1853 and subse¬ 
quently for extensions of the line first agreed upon, ib. 2627-2631-Different amounts 

of capital and different rates of guarantee embraced by the arrangements up to the pre¬ 
sent time, ib. 2627. 2632-2635. 1 

2 . Varying Rates of Guarantee : 

Exception, as regards the amount of the guarantee, in the ease of the Madras Com¬ 
pany; somewhat lower terms in this instance, Danvers 30-33-Dissatisfaction through 

the different rates of interest guaranteed, Walker 2636-Different market value of the 

shares bearing different rates of interest, ib. 2753-2758-Objectionable operation of 

the varying rates of interest, ib. 2758-2762-The investment, on the whole, has been 

a popular one, but the capital could not have been raised at all but for the o-uarantee 
ib. 1763-2767. 

3 . Amount of Capital paid up : 

Capital of 2,754, 690 l. hitherto paid over to the East India Company, and balance of 
287,000 l. in their hands at the present time, Walker 2637-2645. 

4 . Sanction of the Cuddapah Route instead of the Bangalore Route; Merits of each : 

Difference of opinion between the central Government on the one hand and the Madras 

Government and Madras Railway Company on the other hand, in regard to the course of 

the Madras line, Danvers 82-87-Delay through the difference of opinion about the 

line of the Madras Company, ib. 243. 245. 

The Indian Government directed the course to be taken by the railway, but the railway 

engineers surveyed and laid out the line, Walker 2772-Examination relative to the 

respective merits of line by Cuddapah, and of that by Bangalore to Bellary ; evidence 
adduced in favour of the latter route, and in condemnation of the action of the Home 
Government, in requiring the adoption of the former route, ib. 2773, 2774. 2781-2802 

-The line bv Cuddapah is somewhat the shorter, ib. 2774-Reference to a letter from 

the Collector of Bellary in favour of the Bangalore route, ib. 2791. 2794, 2795-The 

Madras Government have been much in favour of the line by Bangalore, ib. 2791- 

Views of Colonel Pears as to the advantages of the Bangalore route, ib. 2796, 2797. 

Further statements as to the advantages of the line by Bangalore over that by Cud¬ 
dapah, Walker 2961-2966. 

Grounds upon which the Board of Control differed from the railway authorities and 
the East India Company, in requiring that the Madras line should go by Cuddapah 
instead of bv Bangalore ; witness’s view was that the latter line or branch should also be 
made, Sir J. Melvill 359^-3600. 3642-3650. 

5 . Line to Bellary : 

Particulars as to the negotiations with the Court of Directors in regard to the terms 
of the contract for the lineYo Bellary; they are not yet arranged, Walker 2676-2689. 

The Court of Directors have, since witness’s former statement, consented to withdraw 
certain objections to entering into the contract for the North Western or Bellary line, 
Walker 2791-2793. 

6 . Bangalore Branch: 

Anxiety on the parts of the Railway Company and of the East India Company that, 
the works in the Bangalore branch should be commenced ; belief that the objection to 
proceeding arises from the Board of Control, Walker 2686-2675. 

7 . Progress of the Works: 

Length of the lines of the company; portion completed ; periods at which it is esti¬ 
mated the several lines and works will be completed, Danvers 74. 

Witness and two assistants commenced the surveys for the experimental line from 
Madras to Arcot in April 1853, and the line was opened on the 1st July 1856, Bruce 

1236-1240-Delay in the completion of the line to Arcot, on account of only 50 miles 

of it having at first'been sanctioned, ib. 1239, 1240-Reference to some of witness’s 

reports in explanation of the operation of the system of constructing the Madras line 

without contractors ; success of the system, ib. 1241, 1242-The Company conducted 

its operations in remote districts without any direct protection from Government, ib. 
1242-1244. 

_j d 4 Completion, 









32 


MADRAS RAILWAY. 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Madras Railway -continued. 

7 . Progress of the Works —continued. 

Completion, by the present time, of ninety-seven miles of the line, Bruce 1245, 1246- 

The progress made with the works has on the whole been very satisfactory, ib. 1247- 

Each section of the line might be opened in two years after its commencement; this result 

has hitherto been attained, ib. 1314-1318-Reference to the view of Mr. Fisher and 

other settlers in Madras, as to the progress of the works, ib. 1321-1324. 1347-1352- 

With a proper staff, and without Government supervision, the whole line from Madras to 

Beypoor might have been finished when witness left India, ib. 1707-1710-Necessity of 

the delay at one period in determining the course of the line after the first fifty miles, ib. 
1711-1716. 

Circumstance of witness having recently heard from his successor that the line is not 
likely to be completed to Beypoor until almost the end of i860, that is seven years after 

the commencement, Pears 2395-2398. 2477-2481. 2487-2490-Absence of delay 

through the actual practice as regards the construction of the works, ib. 2491, 2492. 

The works were commenced in July 1853, and by July 1856 sixty-five miles were opened. 

Walker 2624-2627-Mileage open and progress made at the present time; by the 

middle of 1859 the line is expected to be open to Salem, 200 miles from Madras, ib. 2655. 

2657, 2658-Reference to a report received by the last mail from Captain Johnston, 

successor to Colonel Pears, wheiein the latest period assigned for the opening of the 
entire line is the 1st May i860 ; misapprehension of Colonel Pears on this point, ib. 2658- 

2664-The general survey of the line has been made as far as Bellary, ib. 2690-2692 

-Very few cases of delay in the construction of the works, ib. 2694-The works 

are now being carried on entirely through the engineers, ib. 2699. 

Absence of ground for charging the company with undue delay in the construction of 
the works ; taking everything into consideration, the directors are well satisfied with the 
progress made, Walker 2725, 2738-2752. 2771-Explanation that only an experi¬ 
mental section of the line was begun in 1853, ib. 2725-It was stated that the entire 

line might be completed by January 1859, whereas it may be completed by the end of 

that year, ib. 2725. 2771-Reference to a recent report from Captain Johnston, in 

which strong testimony is borne to the satisfactory progress of the works, and to the 
efficiency of the engineers, ib. 2957. 

8 . Cost: 

The Madras line has cost under 6,000/. a mile, Danvers 138-The cost of the 

completed portion of the Beypore line is about 6,000/. a mile, including stations, but 

without rolling siock, Bruce 1718-Belief that the remaining portion of the line will 

not be executed for 6,000/. a mile, Pears 2394. 2396. 2398-Considerable excess of 

the estimated cost of the first sixty-five miles of the line, ib. 2399-2401. 

Statement showing that the cost of the first seventy-one miles of the line including every¬ 
thing but rolling stock, has been at the rate of less titan 6,000 /. a mile, Walker 2724, 2768- 

2770-Belief as to the inaccuracy of Colonel Pears’ statement that the portion of the 

line yet to be completed will cost much more than 6,000/. a mile, ib. 2725. 2770-Any 

excess of expenditure over the regulated allowance, as in the case of the bungalows, has 

gone to the charge of construction, ib. 2733-2737-If the whole line can b a executed 

at the same cost as the portion now open, the original estimate of 7,000/. per mile, 

including rolling stock, will more than cover the outlay, ib. 2768-2770-Belief as to 

the inaccuracy of a statement by Colonel Pears, as to the excess of cost per mile beyond 
the engineer’s estimate, ib. 2895-2899. 

9 . Traffic : 

Doubt as to the Madras railway obtaining all the local traffic in goods, Pears 2437, 

2438. 2450. 2486-Populous districts through which parts of the line runs, ib. 2446, 

2447. 2482-2485-Considerable importance of proper steps being taken to bring the 

salt traffic on the railway, ib. 2544, 2545. 2554-2556. 

Cotton is still carried along the road by the side of the railroad, Walker 2812- 

Great advantage if there were depots of salt in the interior of Madras, ib. 2813, 2814- 

There are two trains a day each way between Madras and Vellore, 26.2815-Very 

considerable increase in the salt traffic over the line; much greater increase expected, ib. 
300 . 3 - 


10. Profits: 

Doubt as to the line ever earning more than five per cent, or even that amount, Pears 

2406-2413-The portion now open does not as yet earn anything like five percent., ib. 

2412. 

Amount received by the railway company as interest, and amount transferred to them 
as profits on the opened portion of the line, Walker 2646, 2647-Grounds for dissent¬ 

ing from the opinion of Colonel Pears that the railway will never earn more than five per 

cent, profit; increasing amount of traffic adverted to hereon, ib. 3003-Opinion that 

the 













MADRAS RAILWAY. 


33 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Madras Railway —continued. 

10. Profits —continued. 

the Madras line will pay remarkably well as soon as there is a sufficient leno-th of it 
opened, Sir M. Stephenson 4026. 

11. Question of Construction hy the Madras Government: 

Releience to the circumstance of the Madras Government having been anxious them¬ 
selves to construct the railway, Bruce 1231. 1277-1280. 1306-1312. 

Witness has always felt that Government should construct the works, Pears 2243, 

2244. 2328-2334-Failure of the present system of construction; greater delay 

thereby, ib. 2346-2376-Enhanced cost of the railway through the works not beino- 

undertaken by Government, ib. 2351—2354. 

Further statement that the Madras railway might have been executed at a much less 

cost by Government, though not at such a saving as 50 per cent., Pears 2394-2401- 

Considerable saving of time also, if the works had been undertaken by Government, ib. 

2395-2397--Belief that the whole line might have been completed by Government in 

four years, ib. 2397-Illustration in support of witness’s argument that the railway 

might have been made more cheaply and expeditiously if undertaken by Government, ib. 

2 399 -2 4 0l » 2414-2424-Witness suggested at one time that Government, having made 

the line, should allow it to be worked by a company, but he now considers that Govern¬ 
ment should themselves work the line, as being more for the benefit of the people, ib. 
2493 - 2495 - 

Belief that Government could riot make the railway more cheaply than the company, 

Walker 2724, 2725. 2776-Information relative to the cost of materials and of freight, 

and the course adopted by the company in providing freight ; Government could not 
have procured the former for less money, and must have paid more for the latter, 

ib. 2724. 2726-2732-If the company had been unrestricted by Government they might 

have made the line more economically and expeditiously, ib. 2724. 2776, 2777-Neither 

the company nor the Government could, under any circumstances, have completed the 

Madras Railway in four years, ib. 2842-Further statements that Government could 

not have executed the works more cheaply or expeditiously than the Railway Company, 
if unfettered by Government, ib. 2900-2904. 

Inaccuracies of the illustrations cited by Colonel Pears, in proof of his argument that 
Government could construct the works more cheaply and expeditiously than the railway 
company, Bruce 4089-4094. 

12. Native Contracts: 

Delay through the failure of the native contractors engaged upon the Goriattum 

and Palar bridges, Walker 2656. 2698, 2699-The Madras Company have had no 

European contractors, ib. 2698-Delay through the wish to employ native contractors, 

ib. 2698, 2699. 2708. 2742. 2744. 


13 . Staff: 

Inadequate staff always employed on the undertaking, 


Bruce 1248-Strong com- 


lnauccjuu *** " ^ ^ — j -o; * 

plaint on the score of the obstacles raised for some time, to the employment 
staff of European inspectors over the works, ib. 1519 et seq. -Circumsta 


of a sufficient 

oiaii ....., .- - a - -Circumstance of skilled 

labourers having been sent out on witness’s requisition, and of his having been required 
to give explanations on the subject; reference to his report on this matter, ib. 1519. 1534 

_Useful employment of some pensioned soldiers as inspectors, ib. 1527-1530—— 

Efficiency of the pupils taken by the company from schools in Madras, &c., ib. 

154 8 > 1 549- 

Insufficiency of the staff of engineers on the line further adverted to; witness does not 
attribute any blame to Colonel Pears on this score, and cannot say that it may not have 

been the fault of the railway directors at home, Bruce 1687-1702 -Amount of the 

European staff necessary in carrying out the works, ib. 1719-1728-Inefficiency of the 

inspection of the brick-work, ib. 1722-1725 -Actual staff'of engineers employed on 

each twenty-five miles of line, ib. 1729. 

In umino-the importance of the appointment by the companies of the most efficient 
rep r eseri!at?ves in India, as engineers, &c., without reference to interested or personal con¬ 
siderations, witness does not imply that any improper appointments have been made, 

2 o-, 7 _oq8Q-Support given by witness and the Government to applications for 

an increase in the staff’of engineers, ii. 252,-2523. 2380-Feeling expressed by 

Government in favour of employing European subordinates as sparingly ^possible, the 
decision however was left with the railway directors in England, 16. 2521.258 
Witness does not make any charge against the engineers of indifference in the discharge 

of their duties, ib. 2541-2543. 

Grounds upon which the railway board in this country declined to send out the 
increased number of engineers asked for by Mr. Bruce in January 1854; the number 
however has been increased as the exigencies of the case required. Walker .694 2697. 

416-I. E aM ’ 











34 


MADRAS RAILWAY. 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Madras Railway— continued. 

13 . Staff— continued. 

2699. 2 7 00 -Circumstance of Mr. Bruce having been obliged through ill health to resign 

the office of chief engineer to the Company; delay on this score, Walker 2709, 2710- 

Delay through the deficiency for a time of skilled European inspectors, ib. 2742- 

Number of engineers engaged respectively on the Madras and East India railways; 

there are four to every seventy-five miles of the former, ib. 2806-2808-Delay 

throush the chief engineer not being allowed to draw for English subordinate assistants, 
ib. 2831. 

14 . Absence of a System of Transfer of Shares in Madras: 

Circumstance of there being no system of transfer or registration of shares in Madras ; 

check thereby upon native investments, Pears 2342-2345. 2390-2393. 2444-Reasons 

why the Madras company have not thought it desirable to have a register of shares at 
Madras, Walker 2809-2811. 

15 . Improvement if the Executive Management were local ; 

Reference to the circumstance of the chief authority in the case of the railways, as well 

as of the Government, being in this country. Pears 2338-4341-Disadvantage in the 

executive management of the railway being in this country, and in all the capital being 
raised here; advantage if there were an executive board in Madras, ib. 2384-2389. 
3919-3924. 

16 . Generally as to the Government Supervision of the Works; Complaints and 

Explanations hereon: 

Evidence condemnatory of the minute Government supervision exercised over witness, 

Bruce 1247 et seq. -Effect of the minuteness of the supervision to retard the progress 

of the works, ib. 1248-Witness accords the best intentions to the Government officers 

in the exercise of their superintendence, ib. 1249-Unsound principle on which the 

Government supervision was based, ib. 1250. 1262-Sore feeling produced in the minds 

of the railway engineers through the minute supervision, ib. 1250. 1262-Witness 

complained against the undue interference with his mode of action, but no redress was 
obtained, ib. 1251. 

Reference to certain complaints by Colonel Pears and by the Madras Government 
in regard to the progress of the works; injustice of these complaints, Bruce 1252-1255. 

1259-1261-Although a very good military engineer, Colonel Pears was not qualified. 

to give a proper opinion upon the progress of the railway, ib. 1366-1368-Pleasant 

character of the verbal communications between Colonel Pears and witness, ib. 1381, 

1382-Colonel Pears offered no suggestions for remedying the faults of which he 

complained, ib. 1382-1384-Instances of the exercise of Government control in regard. 

to gradients, curves, &c., where the effect was in each case to increase the cost, ib. 1414- 

1416-Instances of vexatious interference in trifling matters, such as the expense of a 

timekeeper, &c., ib. 1416. 

Further statements as to the great loss of time generally through the minute Govern¬ 
ment supervision, Bruce 1516-As regards a power in witness as a subordinate, to make 

purchases, it is haidly correct to look upon him as a subordinate at all, nor is the money 

spent to be considered public money, ib. 1555-1557. 1567-1571. 1576.1579-1584- 

Complaint in regard to the drawings, and minute information required by the Government 
engineer, relative to the engines and carriages, &c. on the line, ib. 1647-1683——Impres¬ 
sion that Colonel Pears may have required the drawings and information about the 
engines, &c. as useful in the event of Government itself constructing a line in the Presi¬ 
dency ; Colonel Pears wished to have a lino* so constructed, ib. 1659-1683-Colonel 

Pears was formerly in the same corps as General Sim, the chairman of the Madras Rail¬ 
way, Bruce 1684-1686 ; Walker 2915,2916-Witness cannot define the proportion of 

delay due respectively to the inadequacy of the staff and to the Government supervision, 
Bruce 1703-1706. 

Witness has been employed as Government consulting engineer upon the works of the 

Madras Railway since their commencement nearly five years ago, Pears 2214-2217- 

Anxiety of witness as well as of the Madras Railway officers that the works on that line 

should be carried out promptly, ib. 2221-Considerable controversy has arisen upon 

different questions, but the works of the line have not been delayed thereby, ib. 2221- 

2224-Retrospective system of control suggested and acted upon by witness in the 

construction of the Madras line, ib. 2240. 

In all cases of importance witness was careful to communicate with the company’s 
agent as well as with the chief engineer, for there was a great deal of jealousy, Pears 2279 

-There was an unreasonable degree of sensitiveness about any suggestions by witness 

as to the execution of the works, ib. 2280-Several instances of suggestions made by 

witness, some of which were not attended to by the chief engineer, ib. 2281, 2282- 

Subordinate relation in which the Madras Railway Company stand in relation to Govern¬ 
ment, ib. 2335-2337-Witness has interfered with the works only where he considered 

them deficient in strength or waterway, ib. 2402. 


Instances 


















MADRAS RAILWAY. 


35 


Report, 18 57-8— continued. 


Madras Railway —continued. 

1 G. Generally as to the Government Supervision of the Works, S;c. —continued. 

Instances of the Madras Company’s agents, Mr. Smalley and Major Jenkins having 
gratefully acknowledged the part taken by witness as Government engineer; on the 
whole witness worked very cordially with those gentlemen, Pears 2474, 2475. 2511- 

2518 -Reference to the last inspection report by witness in September 1856, wherein 

he speaks favourably of the progress then being made, ib. 2476-Explanation as to 

the information and the drawings or tracings required by witness from the chief engineer 
in regard to the locomotives, &,c.; necessity of such information and plans in order that 
witness might be competent to exercise his supervision in a proper manner, ib. 2594- 
2600. 

In Madras the supervision has been exercised too minutely, and during the latter part 
of the operations of the company has been of a harsh and rather arbitrary character. 

Walker 2778-The supervision lias been irritating to the railway servants, and has in 

some cases been productive of actual delay, ib. 2779. 

Further evidence as to the extent to which delay has arisen through the Government 
supervision in India; cases cited in illustration of the delay on this score, Walker 2816- 

2842-Delay through the minute drawings required by the consulting engineer, ib. 2832 

-Colonel Pears and Mr. Bruce were both very zealous officers, but were somewhat 

impatient, ib. 2840. 2843-The company’s agent has complained of the Government 

interference, ib. 2917, 2918. 

Belief as to the erroneous interpretation placed by the Madras Government and Colonel 
Pears upon a certain despatch from the India House as to the relation in which the rail¬ 
way company stood towards the Government, Walker 2952-2956. 

Reference to the orders of the Home Government as showing the close and strict 

supervision required of witness, Petfrs'3913-Duties of witness as to the audit of the 

accounts of expenditure; alteration made by him in the practice on this point, ib. 3914- 
ggxy_Exceptional instances of complaint by the home authorities with the super¬ 
vision exercised by witness, ib. 3927, 3928. 3976-Circumstance of witness’s reports 

not having been generally before the Railway Board, who decided everything on the 

reports of their a?ent, ib. 3933-Disposal by witness of the great mass of railway 

business without reference to Government, ib. 3945-Witness was from the first most 

anxious to act in harmony with the railway officials, and was always on terms of cordiality 
with them, ib . 3956 - 3959 - 

Further defence generally of the system of supervision established and practised by 
witness ; though necessarily difficult of application at first, it will gradually be carried 

out with greater facility and more harmoniously, Pears 397 °: 397 8 - In the earlier P a rt 

of the proceedino-s there may have been two or three occasions on which witness erred, 

ib. 3Q77_-Belief that the supervision never interfered with the progress of the works 

for one hour, except in the case of the suspension of the works near Salem with a view 
to better gradients, ib. 3979. 

Reference to the complaints of too minute an interference on the part of the Govern¬ 
ment consulting engineer as appearing to be in part well founded, Rep. p. v. 

17 . Complaint and Explanation as to the Advances of Money by the Local 


Government: 


a sufficient balance in 
39 6o -3962. 

416—I. 



*e Lands of the railway officials, Pears 3909. 39 * 8 . 3951 - 3953 . 


Evidence 







36 


MADRAS RAILWAY. 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Madras Railway— continued. 

17 . Complaint, and Explanation as to the Advances of Money , Spc. —continued. 

Evidence as to the inaccuracy of statements, by Colonel Pears, that the officials of the 
Madras Company had always sufficient funds in hand, Bruce 4088. 

18 . Complaint and Explanation as to the System of Monthly Reports and Publica¬ 

tion adopted by Government: 

Grounds of complaint against the practice in regard to the publication of reports 
by Colonel Pears and the Madras Government adverse to the conduct of the works; 
unfairness in witness not having had any opportunity of publicly answering their criti¬ 
cisms upon the engineers, Bruce 1263-1276. 1280 et seq. -Witness chiefly complains 

against the monthly reports of Colonel Pears and the censures conveyed in them; they 

were contradicted by his annual reports, ib. 1280-1286. 1353-1360. 1374-1378-Effect 

of the unjust censures of the Government engineer to check the energy of the railway 

engineers, ib. 1313. 1372-1374-Impression that almost all the engineers on the line 

have been censured, ib. 1326-1328-Colonel Pears’ monthly reports were made upon 

the reports to him by witness, ib. 1361-1365-Previous to the annual report and at other 

times Colonel Pears inspected the works, ib. 1369-1371-The monthly reports were 

unnecessary and injurious, ib. 1372-1378. 

Explanation of the practice adopted in regard to the publication of reports by witness 
relative to the progress of the Madras line ; care taken that explanatory statements by 

the railway engineers should also be made public, Pears 2245-2265-Groundlessness 

of a certain charge by fifteen or sixteen of the railway engineers that ex parte statements 
had been published by witness, ib. 2259-2261. 

Further explanation and defence of the system of monthly supervision by witness 

over the expenditure, Pears 2406-Explanation as to the faults occasionally found by 

witness in his monthly reports, with the progress on different parts of the line; incentive 
to progress by these reports, ib. 2501-2510. 

Further reference to the memorial by the district and assistant engineers in regard to 
the supervision by witness and the publication of his reports; its unfounded character, 
Pears 2572-2579'. 

Evidence in condemnation of the practice of the Madras Government in publishing 
censures upon the railway engineers with reference to the progress of the works, Walker 

2848-2856-Information relative to a memorial by the railway engineers, complaining 

of the censures passed upon them by Colonel Pears and the Madras Government; action 

of the Railway Board in reference to this memorial, ib. 2857-2868-Disapproval of the 

practice of the Government at Bombay, as well as at Madras, in publishing corres¬ 
pondence reflecting on the railway engineers, Watt 3141-3143. 

Further explanation of the principles by which witness was guided in the publication 
of reports; inaccuracy of statements that there was ever any suppression of expla¬ 
natory letters from the railway officials, Pears 3929-3932-Absence of inconsistency 

between the progress reports and the general reporis of vyitness, ib. 3954-The docu¬ 

ments complained of, as reflecting on the engineers, were printed for the use of the 
Government railway department, and, as witness believes, have never been published at 
all, ib. 3966-3969- 

Copy of engineers’ memorial, complaining of certain censures conveyed upon them 

through the Government department, App. p. 293-295-Extract from the minutes of 

consultation, Railway Department, referred to in the engineers’ memorials, ib. 295,296. 

19 . Complaint as to the Supervision exercised over the Traffic Arrangements : 

Witness complains against the Government interference chiefly as regards the traffic 

and conduct of the line when opened, Walker 2779, 2780. 2953-The traffic manager 

has complained very much of the Government interference, but the supervision on this 

score has been much modified, ib. 2919, 2920-The main objection raised by the 

Madras Railway Company has been lately with regard to Government control over the 
traffic operations. Pears 3975. 

20 . Stoppage of the Works in the Salem District , with the view to the adoption of 

a different Route: 

Statement as to Colonel Pears having in 1856 ordered a new survey with the view to 
a diversion of the Madras line, as originally sanctioned ; considerable delay and confusion 
in consequence of this survey which was stopped by the Government, and the suspended 
works continued, on the remonstrance of the company, Bruce 1629-1645. 

Explanation as to a change suggested by witness in the course of the Madras Railway 
near the River Cauvery ; misunderstanding in the matter, and delay of about six weeks 
before the original line was again allowed to be proceeded with, Pears 2225-2 233. 

Delay through the stoppage of the works in the Salem district by order of the Govern¬ 
ment consulting engineer, with a view to the examination of an alternative line of devia¬ 
tion, Walker 2742. 2744-2750. 


21. Branch 











MADRAS RAILWAY. 


37 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 

Madras Railway— continued. 

21 . Branch Line to the Government Salt Depot: 

Explanation of the grounds upon which witness recommended,that a short branch line 
m connexion with the Government salt depot shall be laid down upon a narrower gauge 

than the railway itself, Pears 2544-2557-Impression that the branch is not above 

800 or 900 yards long, ib. 2553. 

Information relative to the branch line proposed to be constructed down to the Govern" 
ment salt depot; objections to its being constructed on the narrow gauge proposed by 

Colonel Pears, Walker 2933-2949-The branch is described by the railway officers as 

being i| mile in length, ib. 2935-2937. 

Further explanation relative to the action of witness in the matter of the branch line 
to the Government salt depot, Pears 3909-3912. 

22. Chief Engineer ; way in which his Duties were fulfilled: 

Witness was employed for about a year at the Calcutta end of the East India Railway, 
and was subsequently for four years in Madras as the chief engineer of the Madras Rail¬ 
way, Bruce 1226-Past experience of witness in civil engineering, ib. 1379, 1380. 

Very large sums occasionally in the hands of the chief engineer, and of the district 

engineers ; imperfect check hereon, Pears 2275-2278-Delay in closing the accounts 

of the chief engineer, of whose integrity there was no doubt, ib. 2276-Difference as 

regards correspondence, &c. between the company’s agent and the chief engineer, 

ib. 2513-2516. 2533-2540-Admission by Mr. Smalley, agent of the company, as 

to the difficulty in procuring proper accounts prior to advances being made, ib. 2515, 
2516. 

Explanation as to a censure passed by the Railway Board in 1855 upon the conduct of 
Mr. Bruce, and conveyed in a letter to the company’s agent, Walker 2818-2823. 2835- 

2844-Objection made by the company to the publication by Government of the 

censure upon Mr. Bruce, ib. 2836. 2844-Mr. Bruce was on the whole an able, 

efficient, and most zealous servant, ib. 2839-2844. 

The agent has frequently observed upon the want of punctuality in the rendering of 
accounts and the explanation of the chief engineer were sometimes unsatisfactory, 

Walker 2873, 2874. 2890-2894-Explanation as to the dealing before the settlement 

of Mr. Bruce’s accounts; they were, however, satisfactorily closed, inasmuch as out of 
about half-a-miliion sterling there was only about twopence-hal(penny unaccounted for, 

ib. 2884-2889-Explanation as to the censure passed by the Madras Government upon 

Mr. Biuce for having commenced the Goriattum Bridge without sanction, and as to Mr. 
Bruce having been subsequently exonerated by the Railway Board from blame in the 
matter, ib. 2905-2914-Doubt as to the Madras Government having been in posses¬ 

sion of any explanatory letter from Mr. Bruce which they could have published as a 
reply to the censure in the published letter from the Railw-ay Board in 1855, ib. 2921- 

2929* 

Witness never wrote any letter in reply to that of the Railway Board in 1855 censuring 
him on ceriain points ; he has never seen the charges of the Government engineer upon 
which that letter was based, Bruce 2930-2932. 

The Railway Board have had occasion to find fault on the score of irregularity in the 
transmission of papers, &c. by the engineers ; the agent at Madras has also complained 

on this point, Walker 2992-2994-The present agent has been anxious to bring up 

the engineers’ accounts more closely, and to have an accountant for the engineering 
department, ib. 2996-3002. 

Arrears in the conduct of business by the railway officials, but not in witness’s case, 

Pears 3946-3950-Circumstance of "the Railway Board in London having frequently 

complained of the insufficient information sent home with indents, ib. 3955-As regards 

the delay in the rendering of the accounts of the chief engineer he had altogether too 
much work on his hands, ib. 3963-3965. 

Extracts from a letter from Mr. Bruce, dated Madras, 2 October 1855, denying the 
accuracy of certain charges brought against him in his conduct of the works, App. 
p. 296. 

The Committee cannot think that the proceedings of the chief engineer of the 
railway company have been wholly free from blame, Rep. p. v. 

•23. Proceedings of the Court of Directors in regard to the Local Supervision: 

Fair and impartial action of the Court of Directors as opposed to that of the local 
Government in regard to the progress and conduct of the works of the Madras Rail- 

wav Bruce 1290-1292-Statement as to certain orders having been sent out by the 

Court of Directors with regard to the local supervision and the publication of official 
reports • the fo.mer of these orders has not been properly received, ib. 1292-1297. 1330- 

joq 7 _— Instruction sents out to Madras to modify the supervision, more especially after 

the line is opened. Sir J. Melvill 3662, 3663. 327l-37 2 3- 
416—I. E 3 


Reference 










3« 


MAD 


MEL 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Madras Railway —continued. 

23. Proceedings of the Court of Directors, fyc. —continued. 

Reference by the Committee to the circumstance of instructions having been sent 
out from the home authorities to the Madras Government to relax the extent of super¬ 
vision in force there, although such instructions have not as yet taken effect, Rep. p. v. 

See also Agents in India. Beypore Harbour. Bricks, 2. Bungalows, 2. 

Cauvery Bridge. Competition. Kudulhoondy Bridge. Pumping. Sleepers, 2. 

Engines. Waggon Iron Work. 

O OO 

Malsej Ghaut. Obstacle to a line into the Deccan by way of the Malsej Ghaut, Watt 
3°90. 

Management. The immense undertaking of the East Indian Railway Company when 
completed in its entirety may be readily and economically managed by a Board of 
Directors in this country, Nond 916-921. 

More prompt and economical execution of the works if the Railway Company had 
adopted a plan of prompt local government instead of the present complicated and 
obstructive system of double Government here and in India, Pears 2425-2427, 2443. 
2458, 2459. 2525-2535. 

See also Agents in India. Raihcay Boards. Supervision. 

Materials. Abundant supply of materials available in this country, Danvers 104, 105- 

Great difficulty in supplying material in India, ib. 113, 114-Actual tonnage of materials 

forwarded from this country, ib. 127-130. 136-Delays have of course arisen through 

the necessity of sending materials from this country, ib. 244. 

Particulars as to the quantity and cost, as well as the freightage of the materials sent 

from England for the East India Railway, Noad 480-488-Materials amounting to 

85,458 tonnage have been sent to India for the Madras line, Walker 2648-2650. 

See also Bricks. Freights. Indents. Inland Transport. Iron. Sleepers. 

Melvill, Sir James, k. c. b. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Was until lately secretary to the 
Court of Directors, and has since 1849 been ex officio director of the Indian Railway 

Companies, 3571-3573-Very limited powers first vested in witness as ex officio 

director, 3574-Important anfl useful enlargement in March last of witness’s power at 

the boards, in regard to indents for railway materials, 3575-3587. 3615-3617. 3695- 

3699-Indents for increase of establishment still go through the same process as 

formerly was required in the case of indents for materials; this process explained, 3579- 
3583- 

Delay consequent upon the former practice in regard to indents for materials, more 
especially on account of the reference to the Board of Control, 3581-3585. 3656-3659 

-Objections to any further enlargement of witness’s powers as official director, 3588- 

3592. 3614-3620. 3651-3655. 3793-3801-Necessity of all instructions from the 

Railw ay Boards to their agents in India being sanctioned by the Court of Directors and 
Board of Control; considerable delay occasionally through this requirement, 3593-3595. 

Information as to the delay in sanctioning that portion of the Bombay and Baroda line 
from Surat to Bombay ; engineering difficulties and traffic prospects of this portion of the 

line, 3596, 3597- 3677- 375i"37 6 3 8851-3853* 39°4-39° 6 -Grounds upon which the 

Board of Control differed from the railway authorities and the East India Company in 
requiring that the Madras line should go by Cuddapah instead of by Bangalore; witness’s 
view was that the latter line or branch should also be made, 3598-3600. 3642-3650. 

There have not been any serious points of difference between the Court of Directors 

and the Board of Control, 3601-Witness considers that Government acted wisely in 

delegating the construction of the railways to private companies rather than in undertaking 

it themselves, 3602. 3802-3809-Opinion that the Government supervision in India 

has been occasionally too minute, and perhaps vexatious, 3603. 3660, 3661-The super¬ 

vision is now working more easily and satisfactorily, 3603. 3660. 

Advantage in the companies being represented in India by individuals rather than by 

boards, 3604-The Government control should be complete and efficient, but should 

be exercised rationally and moderately, 3605, 3606-Reterence to the circumstance of 

the Bombay Government officers having on the whole worked very harmoniously with 
the Board of the Great Indian Peninsular Company in India, 3607-3610-Very satis¬ 

factory manner in which the operations of the Railway Boards in this country have been 
conducted; witness has worked very harmoniously with them, and has never exercised 
his power of veto, 3611-3613. 3660. 3742, 3743. 

The Government cannot exercise to much vigilance and caution in granting guarantees, 

3621, 3622-Inexpediency of any very large and sudden extension of the railway system, 

3622. 3739, 3740-Risk incurred bv the guarantee ; the capital may in fact be regarded 

as public money, 3623, 3624-The system of control in India might with advantage 

be relaxed, but the expenditure must be carefully guarded, 3625-3628. 3660-3667- 

Want 






M E L V I L L. 


39 


Re port, 1857-8— continued. 


Melvill, Sir James, K. c. B. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

U ant of skilled native labour on the Great Indian Peninsular line, 3629-Sanction by 

Lord Mb 0 , of the Bombay and Baroda line, 3630-3632-Refusal hitherto to 

^anctionan extension cf the Baroda lme via Indore to Agra, 3633-3641-View of the 

ome Government that the trunk lines only should be guaranteed, 3639-3641. 

Impression that the supervision has been most strict on the Madras line, 3660. 3681 
- nstiuctions sent out to Madras to modify the supervision, more especially after the 

me is opened, 3662, 3663. 37' 21- 37 2 3-Reference to the unwillingness of large con- 

««Q 0r V n England to undertake contracts in India under the Government supervision, 
3 08-3071 Objections on the part of the Board of Control which led to the non- 
acceptance of a tender by Mr. Thomas Jackson, for the construction of the East India 

line as tar as Baneegunge for 8,000 1 a mile, 3669, 3670-Anxiety of Government to 

employ the energies and resources of native contractors, 3672-Failure rather of the 

Euiopean contractors in India than of the native contractors or Parsees, 3673-3676. 

^Notwithstanding the Government control, there have been some few instances of 

objectionable expenditure, 3682. 3685-3687-Witness, as official director, would feel 

great hesitation in disallowing expenditure which had been sanctioned by the Indian 

Government, 3683, 3684-More expeditious construction of the railways in India, 

notwithstanding the great engineering difficulties, than of railways in England, 3688- 
3694-Opinion that the supervision has not caused much delay, 3689. 3704-3706. 



been satisfactory, but the impediments were unforeseen, 3709-The failure of contracts 

has been productive of much delay, 3710-There has been occasional delay in obtaining 

the services of competent engineers, 3711. 

Grounds upon which witness prefers the contract system to the departmental system 
for the execution of the works ; he would like to see the latter system tried, 3712. 3746 

-Fault attaching both to the Government engineers and to the railway engineers 

in the differences between them ; this was owing to the novelty of the position, which is 
now being properly understood, 3713-3718-Direct supervision over the works is essen¬ 
tial, 3719, 3720-Practice as regards payments by the railway companies in London; 

useful check on the part of the Court of Directors, 3724-3730-Convenience if witness 

had power to appoint a deputy in case of absence, 3731. 

A demand by the chief engineer of the East India Railway for an increased staff of 

engineers did not come before the Railway Board, 3732, 3733-Testimonials required 

in the case of the officers sent out by the companies, 3734-Explanation as to a refusal 

by the Court of Directors to sanction the use of Adam’s girder rail, except by way of 

experiment, 3735, 3736-The transaction of business here and in India has generally 

been improved of late, 3737, 3738-Limit to construction on the score of freight, that 

is if the materials are still to be sent from this country, 3740. 3815-3820-Difficulty 

in obtaining skilled labour in India, though not from this country, 3741. 

Satisfactory conduct generally of the railway engineers in their exertions in the 

execution of the works, 3744-Excellent manner in which the construction has been 

carried out in an engineering point of view, 3745-Greater tendency of contractors 

in England to undertake railway contracts in India, 3747, 3748-Impression that 

Messrs Bray and Elmsley were the only contractors who succeeded in Bengal, 3749, 375° 
Importance of the Commissioner of Scinde having extensive powers of supervision; im¬ 
pression that he is satisfied with his present powers, 3764-3766. 3785, 3785*. 

Great difficulty in the conveyance up the country of the permanent way, &c. required 
for the East India line, 3767-3771. 3821-Present position of the Mutlah under¬ 
taking as regards the raising of money without a guarantee, 377 2- 3774-7W ^ ie 

present lines are very successful, the public will probably come forward without a 

guarantee, 3775-Grounds for apprehending that the profits cannot be large, 3776- 

3779- 3856-3864-Probable cause of the greater harmony between the Government and 

railway officers in Bombay than in Madras; doubt as to its being owing in the former 
case to the contract system of construction, 3780-3784. 

Explanation as to the formation of the department of the India House which con¬ 
ducts the railway business; its efficiency, 3786-3792-Prompt action of the Lidia 

House in clearing off railway business, so as to prevent any delay, 3792-Approval of 

the precautions taken by the East India Company in sending engineers to India to report 
upon the feasibility of railways, 3810-3812. 3833, 3834. 3868— As regards the great 
benefit of the railways in a military point of view it all remains to be proved, 3813, 

3814- 

Difficulty as regards the supply of materials in constructing the lines on the 

telescopic principle, 3821, 3822-Probable formation, in course of time, of tram- 

roads as feeders to the railways, 3823-Anticipated carriage of large supplies of cotton 

over the railways, 3824-Commercial as well as political objects had in view by 

Government in the selection of the lines, 3825. 

416—I. e 4 


Reasons 


















Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Melvill, Sir James , K.C.B. (Analysis of his Evidence) continued. 

Reasons adduced in explanation and justification of the hesitation and delay on the 
pa it of the Home Government before consenting to guarantee large sums of money 
for the introduction of railways into India; first propositions by the companies adverted 

to hereon, 3826-3850. 3866-3885-Reference to the objections raised by the Board 

of Control to the terms first proposed, and to the considerable postponement thereby 
in the commencement of the works, 3 ^ 35 ~ 3 ^ 45 - 3 ^^ 9 _ 3 ^ 75 - 

Circumstance of th**re being no railway yet provided for the agricultural district 
between Nagpoor and the mouth of the Godavery, 3854, 3855—Excellent result anti¬ 
cipated from the railways as regards the moral and social condition of the natives, 3865 
Difference at first between the companies and the Court of Pi ‘ectors in regard to the 
guarantee being one of dividend or of interest; how this difference was settled, 3887, 
3888. 

Absence of unnecessary delay on the part of the Home Government in sanctioning lines 
already sanctioned in India; propriety of their inquiries before sanction, 3889-3893— 
Minute by Lord Dalhousie upon the railway system adverted to ; excellent facilities 
possessed by him for arriving at a sound conclusion on the subject, 3 8 94~39°3- 

Melvill, Sir James. There cannot be a doubt as to the entire competency of the present 
ex officio director to discharge fuller powers on the part of the Ea,t India Company, 
Noad 840. 

Military Advantages of Railways. Estimate that a proper system of railways would render 
possible a reduction of at least 7,000,000 l. a year in the military expenditure that must 

henceforth be incurred, Kennedy 1758-Further reference to the great advantages of 

railways in India in a military point of view, ib. 1840-1845. 

As regards the great benefit of the railways in a military point of view, it all 
remains to be proved. Sir J. Melvill 3813, 3814. 

Money Market. The depressed state of the money market in 1847 was one of the chief 
causes of the delay in the commencement of the lines, Danvers 15. 24; Rep.p. vi. 

Mutiny. Interruption to the progress of the works in many places through the mutiny, 

Danvers 100-102; Rep.p. vi-Greater progress with the East Indian line but for the 

mutiny, Danvers 210-Suspension of the works on the East India line through the 

mutiny, Noad 626-The mutiny did not interfere so much with the progress of the line 

between Burdwan and Rajmahal, ib. 785-The Samhal insurrection and the mutiny 

are a main cause of delay in the construction of the East India Railway, Baker 3425. 

Mutlak Railway. See Calcutta and South Eastern Railway. 


N. 

Nagpoor. Circumstance of their being no railway yet provided for the agricultural district 
between Nagpoor and the mouth of che Godavery, Sir J. Melvill 3854, 3855. 

Natives of India. See Contracts. Labour. Social Improvement. 

Noad, David Innes. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Has been Secretary of the East Indian 

Railway Company since its formation in June 1845 ; 322, 323-Political and social 

objects had in view by the projectors of the East Indian Company; the scheme was never 

viewed as a com mercial speculation, 324-Origin of the scheme in the investigations 

and conclusions of Mr. (now Sir Macdonald) Stephenson, ib. -Communications between 

the founders of the company and the chairs of the Court of Directors previously to the 
formation of the company in June 1845; 324, 325. 

The company has power to raise by shares twenty millions, and by loan three millions, 

326-Incorporation of the couipany by Act in August 1849 ; 3 2 7 > 3 2 ^-The capital 

already subscribed is 8,700,000 l .; 329-Detailed statement of the communications 

between the company and the Court of Directors subsequeuily to June 1845; 330 
et seq. 

On the return of Mr. Stephenson to England in June 1846, he having been sent to 
India by the company in July 1845, the company communicated with the Court of 

Directors, but received no reply until February 1847; 330. 332-Offer by the Court of 

Directois in February 1847, a guarantee of four per cent, for fifteen years, on an 

expenditure of three millions, 330-Arrangement subsequently to February 1847, 

involving, as the company understood, a guaranteed dividend of five per cent, for a period 

of twenty-five years, 330, 331-Great financial depression which prevented the 

company from complying with the strict terms of the foregoing arrangement, 332- 

Comment upon the course pursued by the Court of Directors in breaking off the negotia¬ 
tion, 33 2 > 333 - 365 - 373 - 420-422. 

The loss of time between 1845 and 1847, vvas the chief cause of the delay and sub¬ 
sequent embarrassments, 333. 371. 384-389-Rumour in June 1848, that the East 

India 











N 0 A D. 


41 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Noad, David Innes. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

India Company intended to construct the railways themselves, 333. 374, <■«. , 8 ,_ 

Further negotiation w„h the Court of Directors in June and July ,8$f.^oLent 

Com.lnv'af ,'r° f V^ C<> — eme,,t of thc railw:, y> 383 --Obligation upon the 

liament ^>qq "fi P enoc ^ *° Wlt ^diaw a certain Bill then almost passed through Par- 

7 000* o/^* 

iS iall ° n by ft® ^ OUrtin September 1848 of the term, “ guaranteed dividend;” 
substitution eventually of a guaranteed interest of five per cent, lor'ninetv-nine years 
333 343 . Active part taken in 1849 b y Mr. Wilson, then Secretary of ihe Board of 
L-ontrol, in bringing-about and concluding the negotiation lor a guaranteed interest of 
five per cent., 341. 344. 

Statement as to the Court of Directors having in October 1849, after a delay of three 
months declined to sanction a tender by Mr. Jackson for .he construction of the entire 

wo.ks fiora Calcutta to Raneegunge, 345-347- 356-364-Final settlement about 

Maicn 1850 of the salaries of fhe engineers, the extent of staff, &c., 346-Expenditure 

by the Company of about 80,000/. in preliminary expenses, of which only 33.600/. was 
allowed to form a part of the guaranteed capital; how the difference was made up by 
the Company, 34 ^- 355 - 379"382. F J 

Ciicumstance cited in proof of the first understanding about the guarantee having* 

been that it was to be a guaranteed dividend, 377-The terms eventually obtained are* 

in witness’s opinion, better than those first asked for, 378-Examination in furthe? 

disapproval of the refusal of the Court of Directors until February 1847, to enter into 
negotiations with the Company; ample data at their command for coming to a decision 
at a much earlier period, 389-413. 

The original object of the East Indian Railway Company was to make all the railways 

which might be required in India, 407. 414, 415-The" guarantee asked for was with 

reference only to two sections of the line from Calcutta to Delhi and Lahore, 416-419 

-Probability of the East India Company at present paying the guarantee out of the 

balance of the subscribed railway capital deposited wiih them; propriety of their doinu* 

so, 408, 409. 427-443-Complete plans or sections of the line have never been sent 

to this country, 423-426. 

The Railway Company have paid over about 170,000/., as profits, to the East India 

Company, and have received in interest about i ,045,000 /.; 444. 450-Conditions of the 

arrangement as regards the appropriation of profits, 445. 450-The experimental 

section of 121 miles is producing more than five per cent, profit, so that the East India 
Company would have nothing to pay with reference only to that section, 446. 


Conditions as regards interest to the East India Company on advances by them 
towards the payment of interest, that is if the profits be more than equal to the guarantee, 

447-450-Sundry respects in which the railway will lie highly beneficial to the East 

India Company, so that even should there be no profits the guarantee will not be so 
much loss, 450-462. 

The Railway Company sent out its staff in March 1850, and in January 1851 the 

first twenty-five miles of land were obtained possession of, 463, 464-By March 1852 

the land for the section of 121 miles was obtained, 464-In August and September 

1854 thirty-seven and a half miles were opened for traffic, and bv February 1855 the 121 

miles from Calcutta to Raneegunge were opened, 465, 466-Progress made up to the 

present time with the remainder of the line ; in the next two years about 500 additional 
miles will probably be completed, 467, 468. 519. 

A greater mileage would have been completed by this time but for the alteration, in 

1851, in the direction of the line, 469-472. 607-Witness does not admit that there 

has been any delay, through the Company, in the construction of the line, 471-The 

deviation from the direct route to Mirzapoor was not in witness’s opinion advisable, but 
the Railway Company are of a different opinion, 473, 474. 523-525. 534-553-Im¬ 

mense quantity of bricks required for the construction of the works along the Ganges 

valley, 475-477-Fhe line to Delhi or Meerut will be about 1,164 miles long, 47$, 

479—- Particulars as to the quantity and cost, as well as the freightage of the materials 

sent from England, 480-488. 

Great difficulties and expense in the conveyance of the materials up the country, 489- 

491. 520, 521.573. 601. 612. 614-Different contracts entered into for different portions 

of the line to Allahabad, &c.; failure of several of these, 492-495-The contracts have 

all been with Europeans settled in India; reason why contractors in 1 his country were 

not applied to, 493. 496, 497-Particulars in connexion with the large bridge to be 

built over the Soane, 498-510. 5*26-531-Large bridges to be built over the Mo and 

the Adjie, 511-514-Difficulty as regards the works on account of the floods; very 

large bridges required in consequence, 514, 515. 526-529. . 

Considerable difficulty on the score of supplies of bricks, 516.521-It is in con¬ 
templation to use more iron and less brickwork in the bridges, 517--If the Company 

are allowed proper freedom of action, all difficulties will be overcome, 518. 627- 

41 6 -I. F Grounds 
























42 


N 0 A D. 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Noad, David Lines. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

Grounds for the deviation from the direct route to Mirzapoor; the better gradients on the 

indirect line were a main cause of the change, 523, 524-Delay through the failure of 

the contractors, 532-For commercial and political objects the lines in India have on 

the whole been fairly laid out, 533. 

Examination as to the advantages and disadvantages respectively of each route to 
Mirzapoor; character of the gradients, nature of the works, and extent of the commerce, &c. 

in each case, 534-553. 558-572. 588-607-The indirect line is longer by about 120 or 

130 miles; disadvantage on this sore, 534.540. 545-547 -Probable causes of the 

failures of the contractors, 554, 555. 673-Prejudicial working of the contract system 

as hitherto pursued ; advantage if tenders had been advertised for in England, 556, 

557 - 574 - 587 - 614. 

Devious course of the line from Calcutta to Delhi, 568-572-Heavy cost of con¬ 

veying materials from Calcutta up to Allahabad, &c.; less cost from England to 

Calcutta, 573-The Company are now themselves constructing the works for which 

the contracts failed; they have no contracts in prospect on the main line, 577, 578- 

Statement as to the tefusal of the Bengal Government to sanction gradients of more 
than one in 500; 589. 603-605. 616-620. 

Advantage, as regards the conveyance of materials, of using the completed portion of 

the line as the means of transit, 607-613-Feeling of Lord Dalhousie that the line 

migut have been completed much more readily, 614-Explanation as to its having been 

computed that the Company’s line cannot be opened as far as Rajmahai for seventeen 
years, 621-Further reference to the difficulties through want of bricks; blame attri¬ 

butable hereon to the Government engineers, ami, in some degree, to those of the rail¬ 
way company, for not giving early information as to this scarcity, 621-625. 

Suspension of the works through the mutiny, 626-The Santhal rebellion has 

been very injurious to the Company, and has thrown back the operations for some 

twelve months, ib- -Opinion that the Government supervision in India is prejudicial 

to the Company, and has caused some delay, 628-630-European staff of the Com¬ 
pany in India, 631-Respects in which witness complains of the >upervision exercised, 

through the Government engineers, over the engineers of the Company; it is altogether 
of too detailed a character, and is very vexatious and obstructive; 632-636. 

Appioval of the right of supervision and of a check upon the expenditure, if not 

carried too far, 632-634. 709-Nature of the supervision of which witness would 

approve; the railway engineers should be unfettered, save by an estimate previously 

agreed upon, in the actual execution of the works, 632-634. 736-741-•Reference to a 

demand by Mr. Turnbull, the chief engineer to the Company in the Low> r Provinces for 
an addition of twenty-five per cent, to hiss stall; refusal of the local government to allow 
such addition; increase of ten per cent, at once allowed by the Court of Directors, 637- 

639. 644. 662, 663. 678-680. 684-Letter from Mr. Turnbull to the Company’s agent 

at Calcutta,dated 21st January 1858, complaining of the excessive interference and con¬ 
trol in 1 be Rajmahai district on the part of the Government ; examination in support of 
the statements in this letier,639 et seq. 

The letter of Mr. Turnbull w r as laid before Sir James Melvill as ex officio director of the 

Railway Company, 646-659-A certain report by Mr. Turnbull towards the end of 

i857, with reference tu the brickw-ork, &c., was not considered satisfactory, and blame 
has in consequence been attached by the Company to its engineers, 660, 661. 665, 

666. 685-697-Responsibility incurred by Government by reason of its supervision, 

671. 681, 682. 735-The expenditu e sanctioned by the Government has never been 

sufficient, and the effect is most prejudicial 10 the carrying out of the undertaking, 672. 

Precautions taken before entering into the contracts which failed ; necessary sanction 

of Government befoie any contract was made, 674-677. 681-683-Explanation as to 

the mission of Mr. Rendel to India to consult with Mr. Turnbull as to the propriety of 

largely substituting iron for brickwork in the bridges, &c., 684-687. 698, 699-The 

use of bricks in India lias been rather forced by the public authorities there, 700, 701. 

Sundry channels through which indent^ from the railway engineers in India pass 

before they are complied with, 702-Ilemarks on the inability of the Railway Board 

to increase any salary without the sanction of the Court of Directors, 703-708- 

Further statement as to the irritation caused by the supervision of the military engineers 
over the 1 ailway engineers ; professional capacity of the lormer adverted to hereon, 714- 

728. 734-The railway will be constructed much within the estimate, 731, 732- 

Probable delay through the non-compliance with Mr. Turnbull’s last indent for an 
increase of staff, 733. 

[Second Examination.]—Further explanation relative to the reports about the scarcity 
of bricks, and the steps taken by the Company in consequence of such reports, 742-745 

-Delay of several months before the Couit of Directors decided upon the measures 

to be adopted on this subject, 742-747. 

Important and onerous (unctions of Mr. Palmer, the Company’s agent at Calcutta. 

749-763-Reference to a complaint recently received from Mr. Palmer that he could 

not 












N O A D. 


43 


Report, 1857-8 —continued. 


Noad, David Lines. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

ii^fhminthin^tn !^ oe p, ot ‘ a, ‘ on ^ or t ^ e . purchase of some timber without certain detailed 
information to the Government engineer, which would have prevented the negotiation 

rorn being carried out 764-Complaint in the foregoing letter as to the supervision in 

Palm< r t0 ref,0,t ( aS6S ° f ° bstniaive interf -ence 

Nature of the establishment of engineers and assistants in each district of the line, 
707 .- 709 —^election of the staff of engineers, &c. by Messrs. Rendel, the consulting 
engineers of the company; class of persons selected; there has not been a single instanc! 
ot memctency, 7(39-783-Insufficient number of engineers sanctioned bv the Govern¬ 

ment ; considerable inconvenience .on this score, although no delay of any importance 

has arisen directly m consequence, 773, 774. 7 8 4 . 786-788- The mutiny did not 

intei fete so much with the progress of the line between Burdwan and Rajmahal, 785. 

In almost all cases connected with the staff, &c. the engineers o the Company in 
India ate obliged to re ter to the local government, who, in important cases, refer to this 
count! y, 789-794- Particulars as to the supply of native labour on the railway works, 

and the payment made for it, 795-810-Reference to the operation of an impressment 

Act lately passed in India for impressing labour; exemption of railway labourers from 
its operation, 811-823. 


Greater rapidity of eonstiuction if the engineers of the company were bound by 

estimates, without being subject to detailed supervision, 824--Understanding of the 

Company that the ex officio director to be appointed at their Board by Government would 
have absolute power on the part of the East India Company at once to determine all 

questions submitted to the Board, 825, 826. 839. 842-849-Explanation of the actual 

authority exeicised by the ex officio director; increased powers given to him in July 1855, 
and again in March last, his authority however being still most inconveniently and need¬ 
lessly limited, 827-841. 850-894. 


Average delay of about a month occupied by the Court of Directors in the settlement 

of questions submitted to them by the Railway Board, 830, 831. 863-867. 892-894- 

Doubt as to any practical grievance through the loss of time in the settlement of ques¬ 
tions needlessly referred to the Court of Director, 830. 868. 923-926-Remarks rela¬ 

tive to the long time taken by the Court of Directors before the settlement of the con¬ 
tract for the Jubbulpore line, 831-838. 922-Complete audit and control exercised in 

regard to all payments by the railway company, 852-862. 

Objection to there being a consulting engineer on the part of the East India Company 

or the Government, 874, 875. 896-898-Discretion exercised by the consulting 

engineers of the Company in the choice of materials, after the purchase has been sanc¬ 
tioned, 876-879-Further statement as to the expedi ncy of advertising for tenders in 

this country, 900-902-Circumstances of Mr. Brassy having been dissuaded from enter¬ 

ing into any contract on account of the detailed supervision over the works, 903, 904. 


Further statement in favour of increasing the discretionary powers of the Government 

ex officio director, 905-911-Tne railway company are favourable to Government 

supervision, if exercised without impeding business, 912-915-The extension to Lahore 

is certainly a part of the system of the East Indian Railway, 916-The immense under¬ 

taking of the Company, when completed in its entirety, may be readily and economically 
managed by a Board of Directors in this country, 916-921. 

Engineering questions have not generally caused long disputes between the Company 

and the Court of Director 1 -, 929-932-Except in the case of certain bridge structures, 

and of the permanent way and rolling stock, the consulting engineers in this country 
have not directly had to do with the direction of the line, 933-937. 

Highly satisfactory results of th.e experimental portion of the line ; profit at present of 

about six and five-eighths percent., 938-941.950-954-Net revenue of 170,000/. 

paid over to the Ea*t India Company, 942, 943-Rate of freight for passengers and 

goods over the line, 944-Use of Indian coal as fuel; its cost, 946-948-Up to the 

present time 122 engines have been sent out; their cost in this country and on arrival in 
India, 955-961-Considerable coal traffic over the line through the branch from Burd¬ 
wan to Raneegunge ; the coal is very abundant, 962-966. 970-974-Objection to the 

railway company undertaking iron or coal works; greater advantage in sending all iron 
materials from this country, 967-969. 975-999- 

Superior quality of the ircn in the Madras Presidency, 1000-Charge for the con¬ 
veyance of coal by the railway, 1001, 1002-Objection of the Company to the formation 

of branch lines, 1003-The question of tram branch lines has not been considered, ;0O4- 

1007, 1008-The' earthworks and the main bridges are constructed for a double line, 

but the Soane Bridge is only made for a single line, 1005. 1009, 1010-The estimated 

cost of the line per mile is 9,600/., including rolling stock, 1006-Uses to which the 

coal brought over the line is applied at Calcutta, 1011-1013. 

Further evidence as to the amount of blame attributable respectively to Mr. Turnbull 
and other of the lailway engineers, and to the Government engineers in not properly 
4x6_I. ' f 2 considering 
















Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Hoad, David Innes. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

considering the question of the supply of bricks; considerable lapse of time before 

Mr. Turnbull reported upon the matter, 1014-1024. 1032-1034-Means for procuring 

ultimately an unlimited supply of bricks, but not within the time in which they are 

wanted, 1016-1031-Very good bricks made by hand bv the natives, 1035. 10 37 - 

The Company are sending out a large number of brick-making machines, 1036-The 

probable cost of the Jubhulpore line is estimated at 7,800/. a mile, exclusive of rolling 
stock, 1038. 1040. 

Letter from the East India Railway Board to the Court of Directors, dated 23d March 
1848, with referenc e to the requirement of the latter, as to the payment of a deposit of 

100,000/., on the 31st March ensuing, as previously agreed upon, Ev. p 66, 67- 

Further letter from the Railway Board to the Court of Directors, dated 29th May 1848, 
relative to the non-payment of the deposit of 100,000/., on the 1st May (to which date 
its payment had been extended), and offering certain terms on which the Company will 
be prepared to raise capital for the undertaking, tb. 67-69. 

[Third Examination.]—Further reference to the delay on the part of the Court of 
Directors, in 1846, in entering into negotiations with witness’s company; reason forsuch 
delay in their not having teceived certain information from India, 3982-3984. 

North-Western Provinces. Extent and objects of the discretionary powers vested in the 
Lieutenant-Governor of the North-western Provinces in regard to the railway works within 
his jurisdiction, Baker 3464-3467. 


O. 

Official Director (Railway Boards). See Railway Boards. Supervision, I. 

Oude Labourers. Extent and character of the Outle labour, as employed on works in 
Bengal, Baker 3418-3424. 


P. 

Pears, Colonel Thomas Townsend, c. B. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Is in the Madras 

Engineers, 2213-Has been employed as Government consulting engineer upon the 

works of the Madras Railway since their commencement, nearly five years ago, 2214- 

2217-Considers that the system of Government supervision over the railway works 

in India is essential, in justice, to the people of that country, 2218, 2219-Supervision 

is perfectly consistent with rapid progress, 2220. 

Anxiety of witness, as well as of the Madras Railway officers, that the works on that 

line should he carried out promptly, 2221-Considerable controversy has arisen upon 

different questions, but the works on the line have not been delayed thereby, 2221-2224 

-Explanation as to a change suggested by witness in the course of the Madras 

Railway, near the River Cauvery; misunderstanding in the matter, and delay of about 
six weeks before the original line was again allowed to be proceeded with, 2225-2233. 

Views expressed by witness in March 1851, in opposition to the present system of 
carrying out railways in India under Government supervision, 2238, 2239-Retrospec¬ 

tive system of control suggested and acted upon by witness in the construction of the 

Madras line, 2240-Opinion expressed by witmss, after four years’ experience, in 

disapproval of the present system of carrying on the undertakings, and in favour of their 

entire transfer to Government, 2241, 2242-Witness has always strongly felt that 

Government should undertake and construct the works, 2243, 2244. 

Explanation of the practice adopted in regard to the publication of reports by witness 
relative to the progress of the Madras line; care taken that explanatory statements by 

the railway engineers should also be made public, 2245-2265-Groundlessness of a 

certain charge by fifteen or sixteen of the railway engineers, that ex parte statements had 
been published by witness, 2259-2261, 

System established by witness in regard to advances of money to the railway company’s 

agent or chief engineer, 2266-Probable inconvenience and delay, on some occasions, 

through the withholding of advances until the proper reports or returns were forthcoming; 
the railway officials, and not witness, were blame able for any such deficiency of funds, 

2267-2274-\ ery large sum occasionally in the hands of the chief engineer, and of the 

district engineers; imperfect check hereon, 2275-2278. 

In all cases of importance witness was careful to communicate with the Company’s 

agent, as well as with the chief engineer, for there was a great deal of jealousy, 2 279- 

There was an unreasonable degree of sensitiveness about any suggestions by witness as to 

the execuiion ot the w'orks, 2280-Several instances of suggestions made by witness, 

some of which were not attended to by the chief engineer, 2281, 2282. 


[Second 











PEARS. 


45 


Report, 1857-8 —continued. 


Fears Colonel Thomas Towsend, c.B. (Analysis of his Evidence)—continued. 

[Second Examination,]—Feeling of unwillingness on the part of the poorer natives in 
the interior of the Madras Presidency to enter into contracts, but not on the part of the 

better educated class in the large towns, 2283-2289-Reasons why witness required 

that wooden sleepers should be supplied by contract, though such requirement was not 

made in the case of bricks, lime, &c., 2296-2293-Respects in which the system of 

tender for sleepers is preferable to that of direct purchase by the engineers, either with or 
without a limit upon the price, 2293-2309. 

The strict system of tenders for sleepers, as advocated by witness, was never properly 
carried out, 2296-2300-Failure of an attempt to purchase sleepers through the engi¬ 
neers, 2300, 2301. 2309-Means of procuring sleepers through Parsee contractors, 

2 3 ° 5 ~ 2 3°7 Particulars as 10 the forests in Madras, the nature of the timber in them, 
and the regulations in regard to the cutting of the timber, 2310-2322. 

Considerable experience of witness as a military engineer; he has also studied the 

construction of railways and oilier works in this country,^323-2327-Further reference 

to the feeling of witness several years ago, that railways in Madras and throughout India 

should be undertaken and constructed by Government, 2328-2334--Subordinate 

relation in which the Madras Railway Company should stand towards the Government, 
2 335 _2 337 * 

Reference to the circumstance of the chief authority in the case of the railway as well 

as of the government being in this country, 2338-2341-Slight amount of Indian capital 

in the Madras railway; there is no registration of shares in Madras, 2342-2345. 2444 

-Further reference to the system of construction hitherto pursued as being a failure; 

greater delay in the case of the Madras and other lines through being executed bv the 

companies, 2346-2372-Enhanced cost of the Madras Railway, through the works not 

being undeitaken by Government, 1351—2354. 

Witness considers the expenditure on the railways to be as much public money as any 
money is that is raised on loan, 2373-2375-In urging the importance of the appoint¬ 

ment by the companies of the most efficient representatives in India, as engineers, &c., 
without reference to interested or personal considerations, witness does not imply that 

any improper appointments have been made, 2377-2383-Disadvantage in the executive 

management of the Madras Railway being in this country, and in all the capital being 

raised here, 2384-2389-Further reference to the circumstance of there being no 

system of transfer or registration of shares in Madras; check thereby upon native invest¬ 
ments, 2390-2393. 


Further statement that the Madras Railway might have been executed at a much less 

cost by Government, though not at such a saving as fifty per cent., 2394-2401-Belief 

that the remaining portion of the line will not be executed for 6,000 /. a mile, 2394. 2396. 
2398_Considerable saving of time also if the works had been undertaken by Govern¬ 
ment, 2395-2397-Ciicumstance of witness having recently beard from bis successor 

that the line is not likely to be completed to Bey poor until about the end of i860, that 

is, seven years after its commencement, 2395-2398. 2477-2481. 2487-2490-Excess of 

expenditure over the estimates for the hist 65 miles of the railway, 2399-2401- 

Witness has interfered with the works only where he considered them deficient in strength 
or waterway, 2402. 


In the expenditure on the works there, there can be no risk on the part of the Com¬ 
pany, inasmuch as the money is all guaranteed ; in fact, the larger expenditure the better 

for the shareholders, as regards immediate returns, 2403-2409-Witness considers that 

the chance of a profit of more than five per cent, upon the Madras Railway, or any 
railway in the south of India, is very remote, 2406-2413. 2432-2438. 2445-2450. 


Further explanation and defence of the system of monthly supervision by witness over 

the expenditure, 2406-Illustration in support of witness’s argument, that the railway 

might have been made more cheaply and expeditiously if undertaken by Government, 

2414-2424_More prompt and economical execution of the woiks, if the railway 

company had adopted a plan of prompt local government, instead of the piesent compli¬ 
cated and obstructive system of double government, here and in India, 2425-2427. 2443. 
2458, 2459. 2525-2535. 


Bui for the guarantee, capital would hardly have been forthcoming, either in India or 

this country 2428. 2430-Witness does not see much commercial enterprise in the 

fact of English capital having been subscribed for the railways upon a safe guarantee, 

o d oQ 24gi-_Doubt as to the Madras Railway obtaining all the local traffic in goods, 

* S 2Ag8 24SO. 2486-Further repetition of the opinion that the railways might 

have been formed more efficiently and economically and more beneficially to the m,lives, 
if they were entirely Government undertakings 2439 -2444- 2458-2462 -Populous 

districts through which parts of this Madras line runs, 2446, 2447 - 2482-2485- 1 he 

line was approved by the Madras Government almost enUrely or, commercial grounds 

o 9 ,2r.iifi 25s?-Absenceotnsk or responsibility in regard 10 the capital of the 

ZfeiiXs fortliefidverled to, 2451-2457—Object of placing the tern,mus^f die 

416—I. F 3 



















46 


PEARS. 


Report, 18,57-8— continued. 


Pears , Colonel Thomas Townsend, C.B. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

Madras line at Beypoor ; importance hereon of improving the inland navigation at this 
point, and also the harbour of Beypoor, 2463-2473. 

Instances of the Madras company’s agents, Mr. Smalley and Major Jenkins, having 
gratefully acknowledged the part taken by witness as Government engineer; on the 

whole, witness worked very cordially with those gentlemen, 2474, 2475. 2511-2518- 

-Reference to the la^t inspection report by witness, in September 1856, wherein he 

speaks favourably of the progress then being made, 2476-Absence of delay, through 

the actual practice as regards the construction of the works, 2491, 2492-Witness 

suggested ai one time that Government, having made the line, should allow it to be 
worked by a company, but now considers that Government should themselves work the 
line, as being more for the benefit of the people, 2493-2495. 

Difficulty as regards obtaining sufficient supplies of timber from the forest* for sleepers, 

2496-2500'-Explanation as to the faults occasionally found by witness, in his monthly 

reports, with the progress on different parts of the line; incentive to progress by these 

reports, 2501-2510-Difference, as regards correspondence, &c. between the Company’s 

agent and the chief engineer, 2513-2516. 2538-2540-Admission by Mr. Smalley, 

agent of the Company, as to the difficulty in procuring the proper accounts prior to 

advances being made, 2515, 2516-Views of the agents in regard to the best mode for 

procuring sleepers, 2517, 2518. 

Explanation relative to the bungalows for the engineers, and sums allowed for their 
erection; undue expenditure on this score, and propriety of the action of Government 

in the matter, 2519, 2520. 2558-2571, 2601-2605-Support given by witness and the 

Government to applications for an incre ase in the staff of engint-eis, 2521-2523. 2580 

-Feeling expressed by Government in favour of employing European subordinates as 

spaiinglv as possible ; the decision, however, was left with the railway directors in 
England, 2521. 2581. 

Advantage on the score of the exercise of discipline is the main ground on which 
Government could execute the woi'ks more expeditiously and cheaply than the railway 

company, 2524-2535-Illustration, in the case of the Kuddulhoondy Bridge, of the 

inconvenience and delav consequent upon the refer* nee of questions to the consulting 

engineer of the Company in Rngland, 2526-2530. 2582-2593-Witness does not make 

any charge against the engineers of indifference in the discharge of their duties, 2541- 
2543 - 

Explanation of the grounds upon which witness recommended that a short branch line, 
in connexion with the Government salt depot, should be laid down on a narrower gauge 

than the railway iffelf, 2544-2557-Considerable importance of proper steps being 

taken to bring the salt traffic on to the railway*. 2544, 2545. 2554-2556. 

Further reference to the memorial by the district and assistant engineers in regard to 
the supervision by witness, and the publication of his reports ; its unfounded character, 

2572-2579-Explanation as to the information, and ihe drawings or tracings required 

by witness from the chief engineer, in regard to the locomotives, &c.; necessity of such 
information and plans, in order that witness might be competent to exercise his super¬ 
vision in a proper manner, 2594-2600. 

[Third Examination.]—Respects in which the Government engineer has greater diffi¬ 
culties to contend with under the departmental system of construction than under the 

contract system, 3907, 3908-Further explanation relative to the action of witness in 

the matter of the branch line to the Government salt depot, 3909-3912. 

The evidence of Mr. Walker, in regard to the advance of funds, is much at variance 
with the official record of the facts ; particular hereon, to the effect that there was 
always a sufficient balance in the hands of the railway officials, 3909. 3918. 3£)5 ,- 3953* 

3960-3962-Reference to the orders of the Home Government, as showing the close 

and strict supervision required of witness, 3913--Duties of witness as to the audit of 

the accounts of expenditure; alteration made by him in the practice on this point, 3914- 

39 * 7 - 

Further statement as to ihe advantage that would probably ensue if the Madras 
Company were represented in Madras by a Board rather than by an agent, 3919-3924 

-It would be well if the Home Government weie to delegate to the local authorities 

everything connected with the execution of the w’orks, and with the management and 

details of the railways, 3924-3926-Exceptional instances of complaint by the home 

authorities with the supervision exercised by witness, 3927, 3928. 3976. 

Further explanation of the principles by which witness was guided in the publication 
of reports; inaccuracy of statements that there was ever any suppression of explanatory 

letters from the railway officials, 3929-3932-Circumstance of witness’s reports not 

having been generally before the Railway Board, who decided everything"on the reports 

of their agent, 3933-Proceedings of witness in regard to supplies of sleepers further 

explained, 3934-3944- 


Disposal 









PEA 


PRO 


47 


Report, 1857-8 —continued. 


Pears, Colonel Thomas Townsend, c. B. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

Disposal by witness of the great mass of the railway business without reference to 
Orovernment, 3945 Arrears in the conduct of business by the railway officials, hut not 

m witness s case, 3946-3950-Absence of inconsistency between the progress reports 

and the annual reports of witness, 3954-Circumstance of the Railway Board in London 

laving frequently complained of the insufficient information sent home witlvindents, 3955 
———\ itness has from the first been most anxious to act in harmony with the railway 
officials, and has always been on terms of cordiality with them, 3956-3959. 

As regards the delay in the rendering of the accounts of the chief engineer, he had 

altogethei too much work on his hands, 3963-3965-The documents complained of as 

reflecting on the engineers were printed for the use of the Government railway depart¬ 
ment, and, as witness believes, have never been published at all, 3966-3969-Further 

defence generally of the system of supervision established and practised bv witness; 
though necessarily difficult of application at first, it will gradually be canied out with 
greater facility and more harmoniously 3970-3978. 

The main objection raised by the Madras Railway Company has been lately with regard 

to Government c< ntrol over the traffic operations, 3975-Belief that the supervision never 

interfered with the progress of the works for one hour, except in the case of the suspen¬ 
sion of the works near Salem, with a vii w to better gradients, 3979-Witness is still of 

opinion that it would have been better if railway construction in India had been under¬ 
taken by Government, 3980, 3981. 

Peel, Sir Robert (the late). Strong objections raised by the late Sir Robert Peel to the 
system of a guarantee, when first proposed, Sir J. Melvill 3832. 3836. 

Permanent Way. The weight of the rail sent out by the Bombay and Central India Com¬ 
pany is sixty-two pounds per yard ; it appears to answer, Kennedy 2127, 2128. 

See also Freight. Inland Transport. Iron. Materials. Sleepers. 

Political Advantages of Railways. See Commercial and Political Advantages of Railways. 

Preliminary Negotiations . The schemes are first formed by companies in this country, and 
are submitted to the India House, whence they are referred to the authorities in India, in 

accordance with whose repotts they ate accepted or rejected, Danvers 8-The first 

contiacts with any companies whose lines were sanctioned were made in 1849, the first 

propositions having been made in 1844, ib. 13-17-Dissension and delay at first in 

determining upon the scheme of railways to be introduced, ib. 253-Doubt as to the 

delay before the commencement of the railway works in India being attributable to any 

other causes than the action of the Government authorities, Kennedy 2091-2094-The 

Home Government are not. chaigeable with any delay previously to 1844, Sir M. Stephen¬ 
son 355°> 355 

Approval of the precautions taken by the East. India Company in sending engineers to 
India to report upon the feasibility of railways, Sir J. Melvill 3810-3812. 3833, 3834. 

3868-Reasons adduced in explanation and justification of the hesitation and delay on 

the part of the Home Government before consenting to guarantee large sums of money 
for the introduction of railways into India; first propositions by the companies adverted 
to hereon, ib. 3826-3850. 3866-3885. 

Loss of much valuable time in the preliminary negotiations for the introduction of rail¬ 
way enterprise into India, Rep. p. vi. 

See also East Indian Railway, 2. Jubbulpore Extension. Madras Railway, 1. 

Wilson, Mr. 

Private Enterprise. See Guarantee. 

Proceedings of the Committee. See Rep. p. viii et seq. 

Profits. In two instances the profits have exceeded the guaranteed interest, Danvers 260 

--Any well-selected line is sure.to pay, ib. 261-The profit realised on the opened 

lines has fully answered expectations, ib. 295-301. 

Witness considers that the chance of a profit of more than five per cent, on the Madras 
Railway or any railway in the south of India, is very remote, Pears 2406-2413. 2432- 
2438. 2445-2450. 

Witness believes that the Madras and other railways will pay considerably more than 
the guaranteed rates of interest, Walker 3003. 

Grounds for apprehending that the profits cannot be large, Sir J. Melvill 3776 ~ 3779 - 
3856-3864-Whilst the fares must necessarily be low, the working expenses will be 

high, ib. 377 6 -3779- 3^61-3864. 

Belief' that all the railways in India, selected with ordinary care and judgment, will pay 
n ore than the five per cent, guaranteed, Sir M. Stephenson 4002-4004. 4025-4031. 

See also East Indian Railway, 16 . Madras Railway, 10. 

416—I. M 


Progress 






4S 


PRO 


RES 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Progress of the Works. Witness hands in a table showing the length of the several lines, 
the experimental or completed portions, and the periods at which it is estimated the 

remaining works will be completed, Danvers 73, 74-Opinion that afier the sanction 

and commencement of any line there has not been much delay, ib. 103-Undue 

enhancements of the cost of construction where the works are pushed on very fast, 
Sibley 1121-1126-Chief causes of the limit upon the rate of construction, ib. 1128. 

Calculation that sections of 200 miles in length may, under certain conditions, be com¬ 
pleted every three years, Kennedy 1769-1771-Suggestion that the railway engineers 

in India should receive bonuses for efficient and quick work, ib. 1877-1883-Calcula¬ 

tion showing the great importance in a financial point of view of expedition in the execu¬ 
tion of the works; enhanced cost as the works are prolonged; examination as to the 
accuracy of the data upon which this calculation is based, ib. 1958-1979. 

Limit, on the score of freight, &c., to the construction of railways in India, Sir J. 

Melvill 3622. 3740, 3741-More expeditious construction of the railways in India, 

notwithstanding the great engineering difficulties, than of railways in England, ib. 
3688-3694. 

The evidence given induces the belief that the progress of railroads under construction 
in India will bear favourable comparison with that of English lines, Rep. p. vii. 

See also Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway , 4 . Construction. Contracts. 

East Indian Railway, 5 . Great Indian Peninsula Railway, 'z. Inland 

Transport. Madras Railway, 7. Mutiny. Santhal Rebellion. Supervision. 

Projection of Railways. Schemes for the construction of railways in India were first pro¬ 
jected in 1844 by Mr. Stephenson (now Sir Macdonald Stephenson), and almost 
simultaneously by Mr. John Chapman, Danvers 6, 7. 9-11 ; Rep. p. iv. 

Particulars as to the steps taken by witness in the years 1841-44, with a view to 
obtaining the support of the East India Company towards railways in India, Sir M. 
Stephenson 3549. 

Public Works Department (India). The Board of Public Works in India have nothing to 

do with the supervision, Kennedy 1929, 1930. 2164-From March 1851 until March 

1855, witness was consulting engineer to the Government of India in the railway depart¬ 
ment, and from the latter date until November 1857, held ^ ie additional office of 
Secretary to ihe Government of India for the Public Works Department, Baker 3301 

-The two offices above-mentioned have since been separated on the recommendation 

of witness, ib. 3302.- See also Compulsory Labour. Ganges Canal. 

Pumping Engines. Instance of ihe lapse of twenty-one months before an application for 

some pumping engines for the East Indian line was complied with, Sibley 1051- 

Lapse of about two years before the receipt of some pumps indented for in 1856 for the 

Madras line, Bruce 1740-Explanation as to the lapse of fifteen months (and not of 

two years, as stated by Mr. Bruce) before a requisition for pumps was complied with, 

Walker 2719, 2720-As regards the delay in the supply of some pumping engines for 

the East Indian line, it is not in any way attributable to Government supervision, Baker 
3377 - 

Punjaub Railway. See Scinde and Punjaub Railway. 

Punjaub War. Great advantage if the railways had been constructed before the Punjaub 
War, Sir J. Melvill 3846-3848. 

Purchase of Works. Power of the East India Company to purchase the railway; con¬ 
ditions under which the purchase may be made, Rep. p. iv. 


R. 

• « > 

Railway Boards. Very satisfactory manner in which the operations of the railway boards 
in this country have been conducted ; witness has worked very harmoniously with them, 
and has never exercised his power of veto, Sir J. Melvill 3611-3613. 3660. 3742, 3743. 

The harmony which has prevailed at the railway boards, seems to be in no small 
degree attributable to the judgment and discretion exercised on all occasions by the 
official director, and to the respect shown to his opinion, Rep. p. v. 

See also Management. Supervision, I. 

Requisitions for Materials. See Indents. 

Responsibility. Responsibility incurred by Government by reason of its supervision over 
the railway, Noad 67]. 681, 682. 735. 

Expediency of a simplification of the system in order that the responsibility and 

functions of the several departments may be clearly defined, Rep. p. vii-Facility under 

the present system for the evasion of responsibility, ib. 


Roads 











RO A 


S C I 


49 


Report, 1857-8 —continued. 



S. 


Salaries. Remarks on the inability of the East Indian Railway Board to increase any 

salary without the sanction of the Court of Directors, Noad 703-708_Process 

necessary before the salaries of any of the railway staff can be increased, Bruce 1732- 

-, ° W sala,ie ? 0,1 lhe Bombay and Central India line, on account of the system 

of bonus being established, Kennedy 1880-1882. 

Salt Traffic. See Madras Railway , 9. 19. 

Sanction of Undertakings. Different periods at which the different lines were sanctioned, 
Danvers 25, 26. 

Santhal Rebellion. The Santhal rebellion has been very injurious to the East Indian Rail¬ 
way Company, and has thrown back the operations for twelve months, Noad 626. 

Scinde and Punjavb Railway. Numerous surveys required in the case of the Scinde and 
Punjaub line by the Bombay Government; sanction ultimately by the Court of Directors 
of the line as first projected, Danvers 68-72. 142. 243. 258. 

Survey of the line between Kurrachee and Kotree, a distance of 110 miles, in 1853, by 
order of the Government, who contemplated constructing the line themselves, Andrew 

3 1 54 _ 3 1 59-Formation through witness in December 1854 of ‘be present company, in 

consequence of the information sent home from India, ib. 3158. 3160-Official applica¬ 

tion for a guarantee in January 1855, and grant of the Act oflncorporation in July 1855, the 
East India Company having given a guarantee of five per cent, on 500,000 l. ib. 3161 — 
3663. 3274,3275-The line was commenced on the 29th April last, ib. 3164. 

Particulars as to the delay incurred before the commencement of the works between 
Kurrachee and Kotree on account of the numerous surveys entered with a view to the 
adoption of a different route; unjustifiable character of these surveys; local authorities 

responsible for them, Andrew 3165-3178.3242-3250-Mr. Frere, Commissioner in 

Scinde, has been from the first completely favourable to ihe original scheme, ib. 3167, 

3168-The difficulties arose during the absence of Mr. Frere and Colonel Crawford 

from India, ib. 3167. 3171-The Home Government had never any idea of deviating 

from the original plan, ib. 3172. 

The entire line to Kotree is being made under contract by Messrs. Bray, the Company 

providing the permanent way, Andrew 3180, 3181-About 80 miles of permanent way 

have been sent to Kurrachee, ib. 3182-Considerable natural facilities for the formation 

of the line, ib. 3183-3186-Schemes for the extension of the railway to Omerkote and 

Deesa, ib. 3189. 3199, 3 200 - 

Scheme of the Punjaub Railway, as embraced by the Scinde Company, Andrew 3193- 
3196. 3221-3223'-Some of the recent surveys have been made at the expense of Gov¬ 
ernment, ib. 3197-Different amounts guaranteed respectively for the Scinde Railway, 

the Punjaub Railway, and the Indus steam flotilla, ib. 3198.3202,3203.3224-3233 

_Obstacles to the progress of the undertaking through the Commissioner and the 

deputy consulting engineer in Scinde, being obliged constantly to refer to the Bombay 
authorities before sanctioning proceedings, ib. 3207, 3208. 3211-3215. 3251-3259. 

Representations made bv witness in 1855 and 1857 with a view to larger powers of 
discietion being vested in Mr. Frere; enlargement of these powers through oideis from 
Hnmp Government, but not bv anv means to the extent desirable, Andrew 3207—3 2 ~o. 



CUllol vlC* 5 l 11(11 11IO V/v 111 jywn j -| -- - - ■ * ■ 

on account of the inadequate powers of the local authorities, ib. 3298——lhe contractor 
are bound to have the line in working order, in two yeais and a half from the date o 
being put in possession of the land, ib. 3 2 99* 

, 1 1. . _ • .. 1 ~ ^ .rsx rvAii.-aro f cn nDPl/lClAll 



See also Indus Navigation. 


G 


Selection. 











5 ° 


S EL 


S LE 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Selection of Lines. Advantage generally if the selection and sanction of the lines were left 
to the Governor-general, after the Home Government had assented to the financial 
arrangements, Kennedy 2162, 2163. 

See also Commercial and Political Advantages of Railway. 

Sibley, George. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Has been employed since the autumn of 1851 
as district engineer under Mr. Turnbull, on certain portions of the East Indian Railway, 

1041-1047-Irregular and inconvenient operation of tile Government supervision over 

the undertaking, 1048-1055-Inconvenience through the inadequacy of the staff, for 

an increase of which an application has been made, but has not yet been granted, 1052- 
1055. 1080-1082. 

Witness at present has charge of forty-five miles of works, that is from the junction 

near Burdwan to over the River Mor, 1056-1058--Heavy character of the works on 

this portion of the line, 1059, 1060-The ruling gradient is 1 in 50O; at first there was 

a restriction to a gradient of 1 in 1,000, which would have required much heavier works, 

1061-1064-Particulars as to the bridges being built over the Hadjai and Mor; supply 

of bricks for the purpose, 1065-1073. 

The natives are verv handy workmen; they are not employed as skilled labourers, 1074. 

1077-Nature of the superintendence or inspection employed over the native labourers, 

1075-1079-Extent of the European staff of inspectors and engineers asked for by the 

Railway Company, 1079-Advantage of the system of executing the works by small 

contracts, as at first, rather than bv the large contracts subsequently entered into, 1083- 

1085-Considerable saving on the earthworks between Rajmahal and Colgong by the 

extension of the gradient to 1 in 200 ; 1086-1088. 

Consideration of the merits respectively of the direct and indirect line to Mirzapore; 
the former line could have been finished earlier, and at less cost than the latter, and on 
the score of traffic would have been preferable on the whole, 1083-1099. 1145-1178—— 
Injurious effect upon the progress of the works through the Government impressment of 

carriages and animals, 1100-1107-Strong feeling produced by the impressment system 

upon the natives ; illustration of this, 1107-1110. 

Illustration of the enhanced expense incurred through the form required on the 

sanctioning of indents, 111-113-Satisfactory result of the discretion allowed to 

witness in his particular district in the procuring of supplies, &c., nil. 1118-1120 

-Injurious effect produced as regards the railway engineers by the minute interference 

of the Government engineers, 1114-1117--Undue enhancement of the cost of con¬ 
struction where the works are pushed on very fast, 1121-1126-In the case of the 

works under witness, the rate of progress may be considered to have reached its limit, 
1127-Chief causes of the limit upon the rate of construction, 1128. 

Injurious effect produced for a time upon the progress of the railway through the 
system of compulsory labour as employed in the case of the public works ; oppressive 

operation of the system upon the natives, 1128-1145-Examination to the effect that 

if certain data be correct,the heavy cost of working the trafficon the direct line to Mirzapore 
would counterbalance the advantage on the score of its being much the shorter line, 

1146-1171-Further element of delay if tie Court of Directors iiad a consulting 

engineer of their own, 1 175-Opinion that the direct line to Mirzapore, as well as the 

indirect line, will eventually be made, 1176. 

[Second Examination.]—Further consideration of the cost of working t ie traffic if 
the direct line to Mirzapore be made according to certain gradients; belief that goods 
may be carried more economically than on the indirect line, 1185-1212—Opinion that in 
no case need there be a steeper gradient than one in 200 on the direct line; the cutting 
would in places be heavy, 1201-1204. 1218, 1219. 

Ample supply of carriages, or hackerys, for the conveyance of materials ; nature of 

these vehicles, 1213-1217-Reference to certain public documents as showing the 

cognisance of the Indian Government in regard to the oppressive operation of ihe forced 
supply of labour and carriages, 1220-Witness never heard of the employment of com¬ 

pulsory labour on any railways in India, 1221-1224. 

Sleepers: 

1. Difficulty as regards Supplies of Wooden Sleepers. 

2 . Complaint and Explanation in the case of the Madras Railway. 

3. Experimental Supply of Iron Sleepers ; increased Supplies recommended. 

1. Difficulty as regards Supplies of Wooden Sleepers : 

There has been much difficulty in procuring wooden sleepers in India, Danvers 114. 

232; Rep. p. v-Difficulties in regard to supplies of wooden sleepers m India which 

have necessitated the transmission of sleepers from this country, Kenned'/ 1915, 1916. 

1918-1920-Means of procuring excellent sleepers from Australia, ib. 1916, 1917. 

1926-Necessity of sending large supplies of sleepers from Eiglan I for the Bombay 

and Central India line on account of advices just received as to the high price of 

sleepers 










S OA 


5i 


S L S 


Report, 1857- 8— continued. 

SLEEP ERS —continued. 

1. Difficulty as regards Supplies of Wooden Sleepers —continued. 

sleepeis in Bombay, Kennedy 2107-The wooden sleepers sent out have all been 

creosoted, ib. 2133-2136--Encouragement bv witness of the provision of sleepers from 

the native forests, Sir M. Stephenson 4000. 


2. Complaint and Explanation in the case of the Madras Railway: 

Paiticulars a* to the forms required in contracting for wooden sleepers, and as to the 
enect of the forms in enhancing the price and in rendering it exceedingly difficult 
at times to procure any sleepers at all, Bruce 1449-1451. 1460-1462. 1500- 
Considerable delay in the acceptance of some tenders for sleepers, ib. 1450, 
H5 1 - 15°0 _ 15 12 —"—Explanation of the circumstances connected with the purchase, 
through witness, of a lot of 3,000 sleepeis; obstacles raised by Colonel Pears, who 
required the botanical name of the wood before authorising the purchase, ib. 1452-1459. 

1466-1486. 1514, 1515-Great importance of a permission to procure sleepers by 

a direct money payment; the plan wa* adopted for a short time, but was given up at 
the suggestion of the railway company’s agent, who, however, has since been most 
anxious to leturn to it, ib. 1462-1465. 1487-1489——Strong remonstrances against the 
present system have been sent out by the railway directors in England, in conceit with 
the Court of Directors, ib. 1499. 1513. 

Further evidence condemnatory of the restrictions exercised by the local Government 

in regard to the supply of sleepers, Bruce 1550 et seq. -Purchase of bricks, lime, and 

other materials without that undue control which has been exercised in the case of 

sleepers, ib. 1553, 1554. 1562-1565-Approval of the Government, through its engineer, 

settling some limit as to the woods to be used for sleepers, and the price to be paid for 

them, ib. 1555. 1560, 1561-Way in which the restrictions greatly added to the price, 

ib. 1558, 1559-Approval by the Home Government of the plan suggested by witness 

for purchasing sleepers, ib. 1572-1575-The line as hitherto opened has not been 

delayed for want of sleepers, ib. 1577, 1 578- 

Particulars as to the kinds of woods used for sleepers, the districts from which pro¬ 
cured, and the prices at which they may be obtained, Bruce 1598, 1599. 1616-1628- 

Constant attempt of the natives to sell inferior wood for sleepers, ib. 1601-Import of 

some creosoted sleepers from England ; their cost, ib. 1604-1607. 1623. 

Reasons why witness required that wooden sleepers should be supplied by contract, 
though such requirement was not made in the case of bricks, lime, Sic., Pears 2290-2293 

-Respect in which the system of tenders for sleepers is pieferable to that of direct 

purchase by the engineers, either with or without a limit upon the price, ib. 2293-2309 
-The strict system of tenders for sleepers, as advocated by witness, was never pro¬ 
perly carried out, ib. 2296-2300-Failure of an attempt to purchase sleepers through 

the engineers, ib. 2300, 2301. 2309-Means of procuring sleepers through Parsee con¬ 

tractors, ib. 2305-2307. 

Difficulty as regards obtaining sufficient supplies of timber from the forests for sleepers, 

Pears 2496-2500-Views of the agents in regard to the best mode for procuring 

sleepers, ib. 2517, 2518. 

Proceedings of witness in regard to supplies of sleepers further explained, Pears 3934- 
3944- 


3. Experimental Supply of Iron Sleepers; increased Supplies recommended: 

Explanation as to a refusal by the Court of Directors to sanction the use of Adam’s 
girder rail, except by way of experiment, Danvers 246 ; Sir J. Melvill 3735, 3736- 

Advantage anticipated from the use of iron sleepers in India, a recommendation 
already made by witness on this point has not been sanctioned by the Home Govern¬ 
ment, Kennedy 1920-1923. 1927, 1928. 1936-1948-Considerable advantage of iron 

sleepers e ver wooden sleepers further adverted to, more especially as regards the dura¬ 
tion, ib. 2108,2109-Large saving in freights if iron sleepers be adopted, ib. 2133 

_llron sleepers or bearers for about twenty miles have been allowed to be sent out as 

an experiment, ib. 2129,2130-The iron sleepers, which are known by the name of 

Adam’s girder rail, have been tried with success in this country; they are on the longi¬ 
tudinal principle, ib. 2130-2132. 

Soane Bridge (East Indian Railway). Particulars in connexion with the large bridge to 
be built over the Soane; impediment raised at first to a superstructure ot iron, JSoad 

408-510 526-531-The bridge is probably three quarters of a mile in length, ib. 498 

——The substructure of the bridge is made of brick; the superstructure will be iron, ib. 

499'5°6- 

Grounds upon which witness defends his recommendation of a brick bridge over the 
Soane, rather than an iron one, Baker 3363-337 1 - 34 02 -34°6- 34 2 9“343i- 

416—I. g 2 


Social 
















52 


SJO C 


STE 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Social Improvement. Excellent result anticipated from the railways as regards the moral 
and social condition of the natives, Sir J. Melvill 3865. 

Southern of Madras Railway. It is apprehended that the Southern of Madras may be a 
competing line, Sir J. Melvill 3859. 

Staff. See Agents in India. Bombay , Baroda and Central India Railway 7. 

East Indian Railway , 13. Engineers. Labour. Madras Railway, 13. 22. 

Supervision. 

Stephenson, Sir Macdonald. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Director of the East Indian 
Railway Company; was for some years their agent in India, and has been connected 

with the undertaking since 1835; 3546-3548-Particulars as to the steps taken by 

witness in the years 1841-4, with a view to obtaining the support of the East India 

Company towards railways in India, 3549-Survey of the East Indian line undertaken 

by witness in 1845, Mr. Simms having at the same time been sent to India by the Court 
of Directors as consulting engineer on their behalf; in 1846 witness returned with the 
results of the survey, which were most satisfactory, ib. 

The Home Government are not chargeable with any delay previously to 1844; 3550, 

355 1 -Arrangements in 1847 f° r constructing portions of the Railway were put a 

stop to by the monetary crisis of 1847-8 ; 3552-In 1849 contracts were made, and 

in 1850 operations were commenced, which have since only been interrupted by local 

causes, ib. -Progress made with the undertaking at the present time; the whole 

line will be opened by 1862, ib. 

Grounds upon which it was determined by the Railway Company to execute the works 

by contract rather than through their engineers, 3553, 3554 -Failure of several of the 

•contracts adverted to ; blame attributed hereon to Government in their rigid enforcement 
of original conditions, without reference to the altered circumstances and unforeseen 

difficulties under which the contractors laboured, 3554-3563-Explanation as to all the 

contracts having been made in India; failure on account of the system of Government 

supervision, of attempts to obtain contractors from England, 3564-3570-Reference 

.to the rejection by the India Board of a tender by Mr. Jackson for the execution of a first 
section of seventy miles on advantageous term! approved by the Railway Boat'd and the 
East India Company, 3564, 3565. 

[Second Examination.] Gain of nearly four years in the completion of the line, if 

Mr. Jackson’s tender in 1848 had been accepted, 39^5, 3986-Careful manner in which 

the contracts were prepared, 3987-Explanation that there are three contracting firms 

on the Bengal line who have not failed, 3988-3990-Further reference to the grounds 

upon which the Board ol Directors determined to adopt the contract system rather than 

the departmental system, in the execution of the works, 3991-3994-Reasons for not 

tendering in England, 3993. 

Reference to a letter from Mr. Charles Freshfield, dated 20 January 1857, as showing 
that the guarantee principle is in no way financially onerous to the East India Company, 

3995,3996-Grounds upon which witness recommended the direct line toMirzapore, with 

branches, in preference to the Ganges Valley 600,3997,3998-Great difficulty experienced 

in regard to inland transport; steps taken on this point, 3999-Endeavour to employ 

the labour and materials of the country as far as possible; instances of this, 3999, 4000. 

Very onerous duties of witness when agent of the railway company in India, 4001 

-Invariable co-operation on the part of both the local and h«>me authorities with 

witness in forwarding the undertaking, 4001. 4017-Expediency of a more correct 

interpretation of the supervision clause in the contract, 4001. 4015--Belief that all 

the railways in India, selected with ordinary care and judgment, will pay more than the 
five percent, guaranteed, 4002-4004. 4025-4031. 

Statistical information provided by witness formed the basis of the Government 

guarantee, 4005-4007-Sundry items besides the mere cost of construction of the 

121 miles of the Eastn India Railway now open, which are included in an expenditure of 

12,000 l. per mile, 4008-4012-Drawbacks upon the advantage of the telescopic 

principle of construction, 4013-Necessary impediment to progress through the system 

of Government supervision in India, 4014, 4015-Steps taken by witness when in 

India to prevent the system from working injuriously, 4014. 4052-4058-Individuals 

are not blameable in any way for the delays through the system, 4015. 4017. 

Decided dissent from the statement of Colonel Pears that the railways might be 
executed more cheaply and expeditiously by Government thin by the companies, 4016. 

4019-4022-Obstacle to a direct loan by the East India Company for the formation 

of the railways, 4023, 4024-Further statement as to the unnecessary delay before the 

home authorities decided upon guaranteeing the East Indian Railway, 4032-4040- 

Subsequently to July 1847 , he commercial crisis was the cause of the delay till 1849; 

4041, 4042-Deiay through the non-acceptance of Mr. Jackson’s tender further 

adverted to, 4043-4047. 

R ference to the opinion of Lord Dalhousie that the Government supervision need not 
cause vexation or delay, 4049-4052-Annoyance to the civil engineers in being con¬ 

trolled 

















Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Stephenson , Sir Macdonald. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

trolled by military engineers, 4059-Question whether it would not be desirable that 

civil engineers should be sent from this country to carry out the Government supervision, 

4060-4070-Beneficial results anticipated from the operation of the engineering 

colleges at Roorkee and Calcutta, 4071, 4072. 4082-4084-Ability of the natives of 

India in imitating and carrying out the designs of others for public woiks, but not in 
themselves designing any great undertakings, 4073-4081. 4085-4087. 

Supervision : 

I. In England. 

II. In India: 

1. Importance of the principle of Government. Supervision over the 

Works. 

2. Generally as to the exercise of Supervision. 

3 . Consideration of the Fitness of the Officers appointed to the task. 

4 . Effect of the System of Contracts in facilitating Supervision. 

5 . Respects in which desirable to amend the present System. 

I. In England: 

Evidence relative to the functions exercised by Sir James Melvill as ex officio director 
at the railway boards; limit placed upon his powers bv the Board of Control, Danvers 

45 “ 5 ^‘ 1 63-192-Explanation of the practice adopted till lately in the consideration of 

indents or requisitions from India for matetials; extent of delay on this score, Danvers 
49-64. 169-201. 272, 273; Noad 702 ; Bruce 1730, 1731. 1739-1748; Walker 2710- 

27 1 3 ; SirJ. Melvill 3581-3585. 3656-3659 ; Rep. p. iv--Doubt as to the necessity 

of certain matters being laid by the railway boards before the Court of Directois and 
approved of by the Board of Control having led to much or any delay in the construction 

of the works, Danvers 172-201-Settlement in this country of questions as to the 

weight of rails, &c., ib. 239-242-Harmonious action between the ex officio Govern¬ 

ment director and the railway directors, ib. 257. 290. 

Understanding of the East Indian Railway Company that the ex officio director to be 
appointed at their board by Government would have absolute power on the part of the 
East India Company, at once to determine all questions submitted to the board, Noad 

825, 826. 839. 842-849-Explanation of the actual authority exercised by the ex officio 

director; increased powers given to him in July 1855, and aeain in March last, his 
authority, however, being still most inconveniently and needlessly limited, ib. 827-841. 

850-894-Enlarged powers as regards the sanctioning of indents which has been 

recently conferred on the ex officio director; considerable improvement thereby, Noad 

829. 888. 923-926; Kennedy 1955-1957 ; Walker 2713, 2714-Discretion exercised by 

the consulting engineers of the railway company in the choice of materials, after the pur¬ 
chase has heen sanctioned, Noad 876-879-The office of ex officio director was 

established in August 1849, ib. 880. 

Advantage if the decision of the ex officio Government director in England were final 

except in important matters, Noad 905-911 ; Kennedy 1875, 1876. 2180-Except by 

a further enlargement of the powers of ex officio director in this country the supervision at 

home scarcely admits or' improvement, Walker 2958-2960-Improved piactice at the 

railway boards in England through the lately increased power of the ex officio director; 
further improvement if he had power at once to consent to the proceedings of the board, 
Watt 3150, 3151. 

Witness, who was until lately secretary to the Court of Directors, has since 1849 been 

ex officio director of the Indian railway companies. Sir J. Melvill 3571-3573 -Very 

limited powers first vested in witness as ex officio director, ib. 3574-Useful enlarge¬ 
ment lately, ib. 3575 et seq. -Objections to any further enlargement of witness’s powers 

as official director, ib. 3588-3592. 3614-3620. 3651-3655- 3793"38oi. 

Necessity of all instructions from the railway boards 10 their agents in India being 
sanctioned by the Court of Directors and Board of Contiol ; considerable delay occa¬ 
sionally through this requirement, Sir ./. Melvill 3593 “ 3 o 95 -Convenience if witness 

had power to appoint a deputy in case of absence, ib. 3731——It is absolutely essential 
that the right man be found for the place of official director, ib. 3743. 

Remarks upon the supervision as exercised by the official director at the various rail¬ 
way boards, Rep. p. iv-Considerable improvement lately in the practice as regards 

indents, ib. -Considerable delays have not unfrequently resulted from the process of 

forwarding instructions fiom the railway boards to their agents in India; improvement 
expected on this score, ib. 

II. In India: 

1. Importance of the principle of Government Supervision over the Works: 

Necessity of supervision in connexion with the guarantee, Danvers 229 ; Baker 3390, 
3391 ; Sir J. Melvill 3700-3703* 37 * 9 , 37 2 o« 379«-38 oi -Approval of the right of 

4 l6 -L g 3 supervision 












54 


SUPERVISION. 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Supervision— continued, 

II. In India —continued. 

1. Importance of the principle of Government Supervision, &c.— continued. 

supervision and of a check upon the expenditure, if not carried too far, Noad 632-634* 
709.912-915-Importance of the principle of good and vigilant Government super¬ 
vision over the construction of the railways, Kennedy 1874. 1931-Usefulness of 

Government, supervision if exercised with great discretion ; probable absence of delay in 
such case, ib. 1929-1931. 2184, 2185. 2198-2203. 

Witness con»iders that the system of Government supervision over the railway works in 
India is essential injustice to the people of that country, Pears 2218, 2219-Super¬ 
vision is perfectly consistent with rapid progress, ib. 2220-Government supervision, if 

properly exercised, is very valuable and useful, Walker 2777-Decided approval of 

Government supervision if confined to the settlement of great principles, Andrew 3219. 

3240, 3241-Inadequacy of a single audit of expenditure as a check upon expenditure; 

necessity of previous sanction, Baker 3501-3504. 

Reference to the testimony given to the value of Government control to the interests 

of the companies themselves, when rationally and temperately exercised, Rep. p. vii-- 

The Committee conclude that Government control is requisite for the protection of the 
Indian revenue fromundu expenditure, and is even valuable to the interests of the share¬ 
holders themselves, ib. 

2. Generally as to the exercise of Supervision : 

Explanation as to the establishment of the present system of supervision of the lines in 
India, Danvers 40-49.94-99-Control exercised over the construction of and expendi¬ 
ture on each line, by an officer of engineers appointed by the Government, ib. 40-44- 

Exercise of the Government supervision adverted to ; directions given in order that there 
may be no undue interference, ib. 139-143-Supervision has not prevented the pro¬ 

motion of the works, nor caused any real delay, ib. 229. 248-252. 

Views expressed by witness in March 1851, in opposition to the present system of 

carrying out railways in India under Government supervision, Pears 2238, 2239- 

Duties of witness in repaid to the railways, as consulting engineer to the Government of 

India, Baker 3304-Desiie of the Indian Government that the supervision should be 

exercised so as to main lain a real check on the operations of the engineers, without doing 
so in a manner vexatious to them, or calculated to retard the progress of the works, ib. 

3307, 33°8. 33 2 9-The Supreme Government decides as to the direction or route of 

each line, but does not interfere in the detailed execution, ib. 3396-3398. 

Opinion that the Government supervision in India has been occasionally too minute 

and perhaps vexatious, Sir J. Melvill 3603. 3660, 3661-The supervision is now 

working more easily and satisfactorily, ib. 3603. 3660-Opinion that the supervision 

has not caused much delay, ib. 3689. 3704-3706. 

Fault attaching both to the Government engineers and to the railway engineers in the' 
differences between them; this was owing to the novelty of the position, which is now 

being properly understood, Sir J. Melvill 37*3-3718-The Government officers 

regarded the undertaking too much as a purely Government work, ib. 3715-The 

transaction of business here and in India has generally been improved of late, ib. 3737, 
3738 . 

Belief as to the necessity of a knowledge of minute details, in order to exercise a 
wholesome general control, Pears 3971-3974-Expediency of a more correct interpre¬ 
tation of the supervision clause in the contract, Sir M. Stephenson 4001. 4015-Neces¬ 

sary impediment to progress through the system of Government supervision in India, ib. 
4014, 4015. 

Under the terms of the contract, the Government have an almost unlimited power of 

control in India over t.he acts and operations of the railway companies, Rep. p. v- 

No very material delay in the construction of the various lines appears to have resulted 
from the Government supervision, ib. vii. 

3 . Consideration of the Fitness of the Officers appointed to the task: 

Practical experience of the Government engineering officers employed in supervising 

the construction of the railways, Danvers 313-316-If the supervising officer were a 

civil engineer the same minute restrictions would not be enforced as in Madras, Bruce 

1517, 1518-Fitness of military engineers for the control of the railway engineers 

considered; importance of the former having had previous experience in railway works, 

Kennedy 2191-2197-Considerable experience of witness as a military engineer; he 

has al.'O stud ed the construction of railways and other works in this country. Pears 
2 3 2 3 -2 3 2 7 * 

Former employment of witness on the Ganges Canal and other public works in India; 
he has also studied the construction of railways in this country, Baker 3303-Impor¬ 

tance of a military tather than a civil engineer fur the supervision of the railway engi¬ 
neers. 

















SUP 


TIM 


55 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 

Supervision — continued. 

II. In India —continued. 

3. Consideration of the Fitness of the Officers appointed, 8cc.— continued. 

neers, Baker 3447~3454-Large employment of ihe military engineers in Bengal, in 

civil works, ib. 3492, 3493. 3535-3539. 

Annoyance to the civil engineers in being controlled by military engineers, Sir M. 

Stephenson 4059-Question whether it would not be desirable that civil engineers 

shcu d be sent from this country to carry out the Government supervision, ib. 4060-4070 
Inadequate experience of the Government consulting engineers in railway engi¬ 
neering, ib. 4066-4070. 

4. Effect of the System of Contracts in facilitating Supervision : 

Ihe system of contracts is favourable to progress, where there is Government supervi¬ 
sion, Watt 3°94 - 3°96-Respects in which Government interference might be less 

exercised in the case of lines executed entirely by competent contractors, Baker 3486- 

349 1 -Probable cause of the harmony between the Government and railway officers 

in Bombay than in Madras; doubt as to its being owing, in the former case, to the con¬ 
tract system of construction, Sir J. Melvill 3780-3784-Respects in which the Govern¬ 

ment engineer has greater difficulties to contend, under the departmental system of con¬ 
struction, than under the contract system. Pears 3907, 3908. 

5. Respects in which desirable to amend the present System : 

Nature of the supervision of which witness would approve; the railway engineers 
should be unfettered, save by an estimate previously agreed upon, in the actual execution 
of the works, Noad 632-634. 736-741—Greater rapidity of construction if the engi¬ 
neers of the company were bound by estimates, without being subject to detailed super¬ 
vision, ib. 824. 

Considerable importance of accurate progress reports; they should be made monthly, 

and should be properly audiied, Kennedy 1872. 2201-2203-Careful estimates should 

first be made, and snould lie followed by progress reports, as a substitute for the present 
system of supervision, ib. 1872. 1911. 1924, 1925-Expediency, however, of the pre¬ 

sent supervision being modified so that railway engineers may not be unnecessarily 

imppded or harassed in detail matters, ib. 1874. 1876. 1924, 1925. 1931 -Importance 

of the Government consulting engineer being a person in whom both the Government 
and the companies can feel confidence, ib. 2199, 2200. 

Insufficiency of progress reports as the only means of checking the proceedings of the 
engineers, Baker 3332. 3390, 3391. 

The Government control should be complete and efficient, but should be exercised 

rationally and moderately, Sir J. Melvill 3605, 3606-The system of control in India 

might with advantage be relaxed, but the expenditure must be carefully guarded, ib. 
3625-3628. 3660-3667. 

Memorandum containing suggestions for the amendment of the supervision clause in 
the contracts, App. p. 297. 

To ensure cordial co-operation, no small amount of forbearance and discretion must 
be exercised on both sides, Rep.p. v-Strong condemnation of too minute an inter¬ 
ference in details, ib. -The utmost freedom of action should be allowed to the efforts of 

the different companies, consistent with the control necessary to protect from undue 

expenditure the Indian Exchequer, iA.-Importance of a judicious adherence to ihe 

spirit rather than the letter of the contract, ib. vii. 

See also Board of Control. Bombay, Bo.roda, and Centred India Railway, 5. 

Bungalows. Construction , 1. Consulting Engineer {Court of Directors ). 

Court of Directors. Dalhousie , Lord. Discretionary Powers. East Indian 

Railway, 12. Expenditure. Great Indian Peninsula Railway, 7. Indents. 
Local Governments. Madras Railway, 16-20. Responsibility. Scinde and 
Puvjaub Railway. 

Surat to Bombay. See Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway. 

Surrender of Works to Government. Power of the Railway Company to surrender the 
works upon giving six months’ notice, the East India Company repaying the amount 
expended, Danvers 34. 38, 39 J Rep. p. iv. 


T. 

Timber. Reference to a complaint recently received from Mr. Palmer, agent ol the East 
Indian Railway Company, that he could not enter into a negotiation for the purchase of 
some timber without certain detailed information to the Government engineer which vvould 
have prevented the negotiation from being carried out, Noad 764—Natuie of the 
control exercised by the Government over the cutting ol timber in the forests of Madias, 
416-I. G 4 Bruce 










56 


TIM 


W A L 


Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Timber —continued. 

Bruce 1592-1594. 1612-1615-Reference to the kind of wood used for making char¬ 
coal, ib. 1594-1597-Particulars as to the forests in Madras, the nature of the timber 

in them, and the reflations in regard to cutting the timber, Pears 2310-2322—Diffi¬ 
culty experienced by the Great Indian Peninsula Company in providing timber from the 

forests ; steps taken hereon, Watt 3106, 3107-Propriety of the refusal to sanction the 

purchase of some timber by the East Indian Railway Company’s engineer, the purposes 
of the purchase not having been explained, Baker 3387.- See also Sleepers. 

Traffic. Satisfactory receipts in the lines hitherto opened, Kennedy 1933, 1934-Grounds 

for the interference by Government in regard to the traffic arrangements and the rates 

of faies, Baker 3477-3485-Less supervision desirable when the lines are opened, Sir 

J. Melvill 3662. 3721-3723. 

See also Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway, 8. Coal and Coal Traffic. 

Cotton .\ East Indian Railway, 15. Great Indian Peninsula Railway, C. 

Madras Railway, 9. 19. Profits. 

Tram Roads. The question of tram branch lines has not been considered by the East 

India Railway Company, Noad 1004. 100 7> 1008-Bad economy in the construction 

of tram-roads in India instead of railroads, Kennedy 2110-Probable formation in 

in course of lime tram-roads as feeders to the railroads, Sir J. Melvill 3823. 

Transport or Carriage of Materials. See Freights. Inland Transport. 

Troops and Stores. Condi lion of the contract that Government troops, stores, 8cc. shall be 
carried at the lowest rates, Danvers 230, 231. 


U. 


Unguaranteed Capital. Facility for providing unguaranteed capital for the extension of 
the railway system ; that is, if confidence be given by the results of the present undertak¬ 
ings, Kennedy 1906-1911. 1934--If the present lines are very successful, the public 

will probably come forward without a guarantee, Sir J. Melvill 3775. 

See also Calcutta and South Pastern Railway. 

Uniformity of Gauge, <$s*c. Precautions taken to secure uniformity of gauge, rolling stock, 
&c., Danvers 285-290 ; Kennedy 1804. 


V. 

Vaniambady to Bangalore. Though a line from Vaniambady to Bangalore has been sanc¬ 
tioned, permission to proceed with it has not been obtained, Walker 2974, 2975. 


W. 

Waggon Iron Work (Madras Railway). Lapse of two years before some waggon iron 
work indented for in 1855 was supplied, Bruce 1739. 

Explanation as to a lapse of eighteen months before a requisition by Mr. Bruce for 
some waggon iron woik was complied with, Walker 2709-2711. 2719. 

Walker, James. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Managing Director of the Madras Railway 

Company, 2606-A company was formed in 1845 for the purpose of constructing a 

railway at Madras, but after two years’ unsuccessful application for a guarantee, it wound 

up in 1847 J 2607-2609-The present company applied for a guarantee in May 1849, 

but were unsuccessful, 2610-2613-In February 1850 the company renewed the appli¬ 

cation and subsequently took other steps in the matter, and in May 1852 a guarantee of 
4 \ per cent, was given on 500,000 l. for a line from Madras to Arcot, 2614-2623. 

The works were commenced in July 1853, and by July 1856 sixty-five miles were 

opened, 2624-2627-Arrangement in 1853 and subsequently for extensions of the line 

first agreed upon, 2627-2631'-Different amounis of capital and different rates of gua¬ 
rantee embraced by the arrangements up to the present time, 2627. 2632-2635-Dis¬ 
satisfaction through the different rates of interest guaranteed, 2636--Total capital paid 

over to the East India Company, and balance in their hands at the present time, 2637- 
2645. 

Amount received by the Railway Company as interest, and amount transferred to 

them as profits on the opened portion of the line, 2646, 2647-Materials amounting to 

85,458 tonnage have been sent to India, 2648-2650-Carriages are constructed in 

India very satisfactorily, 2649. 2651-Rate of freight for the transmission of materials ; 

difficulty at one period in procuring freight to Madias, 2652-2654. 

Mileage 












W A L K E R. 


57 

Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Walker, James. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

Mileage open and progress made at the present time ; by the middle of 1850 the line 
is expected to be open to fealem, 200 miles from Madras, 2655. 2657, 2658-—Delay 

bdd-fs26^ fa 2fin« °fi lhe na « V r COntrac,ors en gaged upon the Gonattum and Palar 
bnd b es2 6 5t). 2698, 2699— Reference to a report received by the last mail from Captain 
Johnston, successor to Colonel Pears, wherein the latest period assigned for the opening 

2658-26 n 64 re me 1Sthe 1St May 1860 5 misa PP rehension ot Colonel Pears on this poinf, 


Anxiety on the part of the railway company and of the East India Company that the 
works on the Bangalore branch should be commenced ; belief that the objection to pro¬ 
ceeding arises from the Board of Control, 2665-2675-Particulars as to the negotia- 

tions with the Court of Directors in regard to the terms of the contract for the line to 

Bellary; these are not yet arranged, 2676-2689-The general survey of the line has 

been made as far as Bellary, 2690-2692. 

Very few cases of delay in the construction of the works of the Madras Railway, 2694 
7 Grounds upon which the Railway Board in this country declined to send out the 
increased number of engineers asked for by Mr. Bruce in January 1854 ; the number has, 
however, been increased as the exigencies of the case required, 2694-2697. 2699, 2700* 

-The Company have had no European contractors, 2698-Delavs through the wish 

to employ native contractors, 2698, 2699. 2708-The works are'now being carried 

on entirely through the engineers, 2699. 

Particulars as to the extent and cost of the works required for the more important 

bridges on the line; time taken in the construction of certain bridges, 2701—2705- 

Peculiar method of construction in bridging the rivers on the line, 2706, 2707-Pro¬ 

bability of inci eased expense if the bridges were built by contract, 2708. 

Explanation as to a lapse of eighteen months before a requisition by Mr. Bruce for 

some waggon iron work was complied with, 2709-2711. 2719-Circumstance of 

Mr. Bruce having been obliged through ill-health to resign the office of chief engineer to 
the Company ; delay on this score, 2709, 2710, 2742. 

Delay necessarily consequent upon the system first laid down in this country in regard 
to requisitions for materials; this system explained, 2710-2713-Considerable im¬ 

provement in June 1855 and subsequently in the system adopted before compliance with 

requisitions, 2713, 2714-Instance of rapid compliance with a requisition for some 

axles and wheels, the Court of Directors having relaxed the rules on the occasion, 2714- 

2719-Explanation as to the lapse of fifteen months (and not of two years, as stated 

by Mr. Bruce) before a requisition for pumps was complied with, 2719, 2720. 

Particulars connected with the erection and cost of bungalows for the engineers; 
inaccurate statement of Colonel Pears as to the amount of the excess of expenditure on 

this score, 2721-2723-Statement showing that the cost of the first seventy-one miles 

of the line, including everything but rolling stock, has been at the rate of less than 
6,000 l. per mile, 2724. 2768-2770-Belief that Government could not make the rail¬ 

way more cheaply than the Company, 2724, 2725. 2776. 

Information relative to the cost of materials and of freight, and the course adopted by 
the Company in providing freight; Government could not have procured the former fur 

less money, and must have paid more for the latter, 2724. 2726-2732-If the Company 

had been unrestricted by Government, they might have made the line more economically 

and expeditiously, 2724. 2776, 2777-Belief as to the inaccuracy of Colonel Pears’ 

statement that the portion of the line yet to be completed will cost much more than 
6000 l. a mile, 2725. 2770. 

Absence of ground for charging the Company with undue delay in the construction of 
the works; taking everything into consideration, the Directors are well satisfied with the 

progress made, 2725. 2738-2752. 2771-Explanation that only an expeiiinental section 

of the line was’ begun in 1853 ; 2725-It was stated that the entire line might be com¬ 

pleted by January 1859, whereas it may be completed by the end of that year, 2725. 

277!_Any excess of expenditure over the regulated allowance, as in the case of the 

bungalows, has gone to the charge of construction, 2733-2737. 

Delay through the desire to employ native contractors further adverted to, 2742. 2744 

_Delay through inadequate supplies of labour, 2742-Delay through the stoppage 

of the works in the Salem district, by order of the Government consulting engineer, with 
a view to the examination of an alternative line of deviation, 2742. 2744-2750——Delay 

through the deficiency for a time of skilled Euiopean inspectors, 2742-Tliere has 

been s°ome delay through the pressing of carts and bullocks for Government, ib. - 

There have also been some minor causes of delay, 2743. 

Different market value of the shares bearing different rates of interest, 2753-2758- 

Objectionable operation of the varying rates of interest upon different portions of the 

caoital 2758-2762-The investment has on the whole been a popular one, but the 

capital’ could not have been raised at all without the guarantee, 2763-2767-If the 

whole line can be executed at the same cost as the portion now open the original 
I H estimate 











WALK E K. 


58 


Report, 1857-8 —continued. 


Walker, James. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

estimate of 7,000/. per mile, including rolling stock, will more than cover the outlay, 
2768-2770. 

The Indian Government directed the course to be taken by the railway, but the railway 

engineers surveyed and laid out the line, 2772-Examination relative to the respective 

merits of the line by Cuddapah, and of that by Bangalore, to Bellary ; evidence adduced 
in favour of the latter route, and in condemnation of the action of the Home Government 
in requiring the adoption of the former route, 2773, 2774. 2791-2802. 

Government supervision, if properly exercised, is very valuable and useful, 2777-In 

Madras the supervision has been exercised too minutely, and during the latter part of the 

operations of the Company has been of a harsh and rather arbitrary character, 2778- 

The supervision has been irritating to the railway servants, and has in some cases been 
productive of actual delay, 2779-Witness complains against the Government inter¬ 

ference chit fly as regards the traffic and conduct of the line when opened, 2779, 2780. 

Doubt as to the Indian Government having taken any steps for improving the harbour 

at Beypore, 2803-2805-Number of engineers engaged respectively on the Madras and 

East India Railways ; there are four to every seveniy-tive miles of the former, 2806-2008 

--Reasons why the Madras Company have not thought it desirable to have a register 

of shares at Madras, 2809-2811-Cotton is still partly carried along the road by the 

side of the railroad, 2812-Great advantage if there were depots of salt in the interior 

of Madras, 2813, 2814——There are two trains a day each way, between Madras and 
Vellore, 2815. 

Further evidence as to the extent to which delay has arisen through the Government 

supervision in India; cases cited in illustration of the delay on this score, 2816-2842- 

Explanation as to a censure passed by the Railway Board in 1855, upon the conduct of 

Mr. Bruce,and conveyed in a letter to the Company’s agent, 2818-2823. 2835-2844- 

Objection made by the Company to the publication by Government of the censure upon 

Mr. Bruce, 2836. 2844-Mr. Bruce was on the whole an able, efficient, and most zealous 

servant, 2839-2844-Neither the Company nor the Government could, under any cir¬ 

cumstances, have completed the undertaking in four years, 2842. 

Explanation relative to the considerable time which elapsed in reference to the bridge 
over the Kudulhoondy; final settlement of the question in this country, 2845-2847. 

[Second Examination.]—Evidence in condemnation of the practice of tho Madras 
Government in publishing censures upon the railway engineers with reference to the pro¬ 
gress of the works, 2848-2856-Information relative to a memorial by the railway engi¬ 

neers, complaining of the censures passed upon them by Colonel Pears and the Madras 
Government; action of the Railway Board in reference to this memorial, 2857 2 ^68. 

All applications for money and all communications with the Madras Government are 

made by the railway company’s agent at Madras, 2869-Reference to a letter by Mr. 

Smalley, the former agent of the company, in which he seems to admit that grounds 
existed for withholding a certain advance, which was however made by the Government, 

2870-2879-The agent has frequently observed upon the want of punctuality in the 

rendering of accounts, and the explanations of the chief engineer were sometimes unsatis¬ 
factory, 2873,2874. 2890-2894. 

Instance of the Railway Board having addressed the Court of Directors as to the with¬ 
holding of funds, in the autumn of 1856 ; there has been no further cause for remonstrance 

on this score, 2879-2883-Explanation as to the delay before the settlement of Mr. 

Bruce’s accounts ; they were however satisfactorily closed, inasmuch as out of about half 
a million sterling there was only about 2 ^ d. unaccounted for, 2884-2889. 

Belief as to the inaccuracy of a statement by Colonel Pears, as to the excess of cost per 

mile beyond the engineer’s estimate, 2895-2899-Further statement that Government 

could not have executed the works more cheaply or expeditiously than the railway com¬ 
pany if unfettered by Government, 2900-2904-Explanation as to the censure passed 

by the Madras Government upon Mr. Bruce, for having commenced the Goriaitum Bridge 
without sanction, and as to Mr. Bruce having been subsequently exonerated by the Rail¬ 
way Board from blame in the matter, 2905-2914. 

Colonel Pears was formerly in the same corps as the present chairman of the Railway 
Board, 2915, 2916-The company’s agent has complained of the Government inter¬ 
ference, 2917, 2918-The traffic manager has complained very much of the Government 

interference, but the supervision on this score has been much modified, 2919, 2920. 

Doubt as to the Madras Government having been in possession of any explanatory 
letter from Mr. Bruce, which they could have published as a reply to the censure in the 
published letter from the Railway Board in 1855; 2921-2929. 

[Third Examination.]—Information relative to the branch line proposed to be con¬ 
structed down to the Government salt depot; objections to its being constructed on the 

narrow gauge proposed by Colonel Pears, 2933-2949-Ample powers entrusted to the 

Company’s agent at Madras, 2950, 2951-Belief as to the erroneous interpretation 

placed 












Report, 1857-8— continued. 


Walker , James. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

placed by the Madras Government and Colonel Pears upon a certain despatch from the 
India House, as to the relation in which the railway company stood towards the Govern¬ 
ment, 2952-2956. 

Complaint as to the interference of the Madras Government in regard to the tariff of 

charges to be enforced on the line, 2953-Reference to a recent report from Captain 

Johnston, the present consulting engineer to the Madras Government, in which strong 
testimony is borne to the satisfactory progress of the works, and to the efficiency of the 

engineers, 2957-Except by a further enlargement of the powers of the ex officio 

director in this country, the supervision at home scarcely admits of improvement, 2958- 
2960. 

Further statement as to the advantages of the line by Bangalore over that by Cuddapah, 

2961-2966-Objections to the construction by another company of certain other lines 

in the Madras territory, which lines formed part of the original project of witness’s com¬ 
pany, 2967-2970-The Court of Directors have just consented to withdraw certain 

objections to entering into the contract for the North-Western or Bellary line, 2971-2973 

-Though the line from Vaniambady to Bangalore has been sanctioned, permission to 

proceed with it has not been obtained, 2974, 2975. 

Further information as to the serious inconvenience, amounting almost to a stoppage 
of works, which resulted through the withholding of funds in August and September 
1856 ; how far a non-production of accounts may have been at the bottom of the refusals 

to make these advances, 2976-2994-The Railway Board have had occasion to find 

fault on the score of irregularity in the transmission of papers, &c. by the engineers; 

the agent at Madras has also complained on this point, 2992-2994-The present agent 

has been anxious to bring up the engineer’s accounts more closely, and to have an 
accountant for the engineering department, 2996-3002. 

Grounds for dissenting from the opinion of Colonel Pears, that the Madras Railway 
will never earn more than five per cent, profit; increasing amount of traffic adverted to 
hereon, 3003-Witness believes that the Madras and other railways will pay consi¬ 

derably more than the guaranteed rates of interest, ib. 


Watt, Thomas R. (Analysis of his Evidence.)—Secretary, for four years, to the Great 

Indian Peninsula Railway Company, 3004, 3005-The scheme of the Company was 

originated by Mr. John Chapman in the spring of 1845, but the Act of Incorporation 
was not obtained till August 1849; 3006-3009-In August 1849 the Company con¬ 

tracted with the Court of Directors to make a line from Bombay to Callian, a distance 
of thirty-three miles; this was completed in May 1854; 3010-3016. 

Execution of the whole of the railway by means of contracts, all of which have been 

satisfactorily fulGlled, 3017, 3018. 3050-The extent of the railway as now sanctioned 

is 1,235 miles ; these are made up by the main line to Jubbulpore and by lines to Nag- 

pore and the River Kistna, 3019. 3022-3025-Total amount of the guaranteed capital 

in shares and loans, 3020, 3021-The Madras Company have not been ready to settle 

the point of junction between their line and the Peninsular line, 3025, 3026. 

Particulars as to the exceedingly heavy and costly character of the works necessary in 
the crossing of the Thul Ghaut on' the main line, and of the Bhore Ghaut on the line to 

the Kistna, 3027-3042. 3145-Steep gradients over portions of the distance in crossing 

the ghauts, 3029.3039-Employment of natives as well as Europeans as inspectors, &c., 

0033, 3034--Mr. James Berkeley is the chief engineer, 3035, 3036-Difficulty on 

the score of labour on the works at the Bhore Ghaut and consequent check to the 
progress of the works, 3040, 3041. 3147-3149. 

There is one native contractor who has performed his contracts most satisfactorily, 
3044-3049-The European contractors have all gone out from this country; par¬ 

ticulars hereon, and as to the system of tender adopted by ihe company in India and 

England 3044. 3097-3100-The whole railway is estimated to Oust not more than 

6 500 1 a mile; the eighty-eight and a half miles now open have cost 9,000 l. a mile, 

oqki— 3053-The line is a double one as far as Callian ; reason of this, 3053* 3*44 

Mention'of several heavy works on the line in the shape of bridges and viaducts, 3054- 
3058. 

Lieutenant-colonel Crawford was, till May 1856, and Captain Rivers has since been, 
the Government consulting engineer on the line, 3060——Absence of any undue supei- 
“don or interference during the time of Colonel Crawford, 3060. 3094-3096—Inter¬ 
ference on the part of Captain Rivers as regards a portion of the completed line near 

Callian, 3060-3062. 

Particulars as to the difficulty and delay experienced in obtaining sanction for the 

extension from Callian to Munmar and J ubbulpore, 3063-3072-Particulars as to the 

delay before sanction was given to take the works over the Bhore Ghaut and the Thul 

Ghaut; alternative lines contemplated by Government, 3073-3089-Obstacle to aline 

into the Deccan by way of the Malsej Ghaut, 3090. 

-t I There 

416—I. 











00 


WAT 


W O R 


Report, 18 57-8— continued. 


Wait, Thomas JR. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. 

There has been no avoidable delay in the construction of the lines when sanctioned, 
3091-3093-The system of contracts is favourable to progress where there is Govern¬ 
ment supervision, 3094-3096-Employment by the European contractors of native sub¬ 
contractors ; advantage thereof 3101-3105-Difficulties experienced by the company in 

providing timber from the forests; steps taken hereon, 3106, 3107-Ample supplies of 

stone readily available, 3108-3110. 

The interests of the company are represented at Bombay by five directors, two of 
whom are natives of high standing ; advantage of this system over that of a mere local 

agent, 3111-3120-There is a register for the transfer of shares at Bombay, and many 

natives are shareholders, 3118-3120-Mileage now open, under construction, or about 

to be commenced, with the dates at which further portions will be opened, 3121,3122. 

Amount of capital paid up, 3123-About 460,000/. has been received as interest, ib. 

-About 9,000,000/. may be required for the whole 1,235 miles, 3124-The company 

have paid to the Government about 70,000/. towards the 460,000/., 3125-3127-Very 

satisfactory receipts on the completed portion of the line ; grounds for anticipating largely 
increased leceipts from the conveyance of salt, cotton, &c., when the line is extended into 
the interior of the country, 3128-3140. 

Disapproval of the practice of the Government at Bombay, as well as at Madras, in 

publishing correspondence reflecting on the railway engineers, 3141-3143-The Thul 

Ghaut works were only commenced in February last; those on the Bhore Ghaut were 

begun in 1856; 3146.3148-Improved practice at the Railway Boards in England 

through the lately increased powers of the ex-officio director; further improvement if he 
had power at once to consent to the proceedings of the Board, 3150, 3151. 

Wilson, Mr. Active part taken in 1849 by Mr. Wilson, then secretary of the Board of 
Control, in bringing about and concluding the negotiation for a guaranteed interest of five 
per cent., Noad 341. 344. 

Working Expenses. Should any line not pay its working expenses a rateable deduction, cor¬ 
responding with the amount of expenses uncovered, is to be made from the guarantee, 

Danvers 36,37-The lines opened have, from the first, more than paid their working 

expenses, ib. 260. 262. 
























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